Is it all our own fault? Why did we do it?

[Skyalmian]

Good thread, "timely". :(

 

[Joe]

The issue makes me think of a song that was often sung in church when I was growing up. It was based on the answer to the question that is offered by the three mainstream monotheistic religions. I really loved the song because it put in words the same questions I was asking though I thought the answer was useless. Still think that, but still love the song. In the end, I guess that's why I undertook the Cs experiment: Cs answers are more interesting and even sensible though, as Joe says, we can't prove them and some things have to be taken under advisement and maybe based on circumstantial evidence. I guess that's why I wrote The Wave.... to lay out all the threads and examine them.

Anyway, enjoy the song:

http://<iframe width="420" height="...Go" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Well, I like it, and the message, but I can understand why "you'll understand later" wasn't enough at the time. The thing is, while I suggested taking a 'wait and see' approach and just doing what we can each day, doing that at this point can't help but include all of the information imparted by the Cs, if only in the background. Put it this way, in the absence of any other coherent cosmology (and it IS in absence) the one provided by the Cs is pretty good. If we go into the future with that in the back of our minds, and it proves true, then it's all good. If it proves wrong, then we'll fall back on "farther along we'll understand why".

 

[genero81]

From The Sufi Path of Knowledge; "If the object of the call responds, he is named obedient and becomes felicitous. If he does not respond, he is named disobedient and becomes wretched. You may object and say; How can a divine name call and the engendered thing refuse to respond, given that it is week and must accept the divine power? We will answer: It does not refuse to respond in respect of itself and it's own reality, since it is constantly overpowered. But since it is under the overpowering sway of a divine name, that name does not let it respond to the name which calls to it. Hence there is conflict among the divine names. However, the names are equals, so the ruling property belongs to the actual possessor, which is the name in whose hand the thing is when the second name calls to it. The possessor is stronger through the situation."

"You may object: But his ignorance derives from a divine name whose property governs him. We answer: Ignorance is a quality pertaining to nonexistence; it is not ontological. But the divine names bestow only existence; they do not bestow nonexistence. So the ignorance belongs to the very self of him who is called."

Knowledge protects. There is a divide between densities which is why lies, deception, and manipulation are the ways in which most are utilized. I do not agree that the completely blind and mechanical are to be envied. To be awake is to be alive and I for one choose life. I do not judge it, I merely participate in it through the conscious choices I make via Knowledge.

 

[aragorn]

This is a very timely thread for me, too. Many good and interesting points!

I don't have that much to add, but I was thinking that even if it's pointless to rack your brain trying to understand and comprehend all the "dimensional/density stuff" or the meaning of life, since we never can know the complete answers while we're in 3D, I'm still very fascinated by those concepts. We can't prove any of the "weird dimensional stuff", but considering different theories and possibilities spices up a bit this business of gathering knowledge and awareness, osit.

I think there's a built in curiosity for some humans (with a soul) to seek understanding of the big mysteries of the universe etc, even though they know the quest is futile. Perhaps that's just a part of the "truth seeker syndrome", that we shouldn't take too seriously and invest all our time in, but which we shouldn't completely suppress either? Perhaps trying to figure out how 4D works is good gymnastics for the brain. ;D

 

[theos]

Q: (L) Can a spiritual being become entrapped in physical
matter?

A: It's possible but very unlikely.

Q: (L) Are human beings entrapped in physical matter?

A: By choice.

Q: (L) Why did they make this choice?

A: To experience physical sensations. It was a group mind
decision.

Q: (L) Who was in charge of the group?

A: The group.

Q: (L) Does the interaction between the spirit/soul and the
body physical produce some by-product that is desirable to
other beings?

A: Well, all things have desirable consequences as well as
undesirable consequences, but it must also be mentioned
here that everything that exists in all realms of the
universe can experience existence in one of only two ways.
That would be defined as a long wave cycle and a short
wave cycle. Going back to your previous question about
why humans are "entrapped" in physical existence, which,
of course, is voluntary and chosen, this was due to the
desire to change from the long wave cycle experience of
completely what you would call ethereal or spiritual
existence, to the short wave cycle of what you call
physical existence. The difference is that a long wave
cycle involves only very gradual change in evolution in a
cyclical manner. Whereas a short wave cycle involves a
duality. And this is the case with souls in physical
bodies as is experienced on this earth plane because the
soul experiences an ethereal state for half the cycle and
a physical state for the other half of the cycle. While
these halves are not measured in time the way you measure
time, the totality of experience is equal in each half.
The necessity to form the short wave cycle was brought
about through nature through the natural bounds of the
universe when the group mind of souls chose to experience
physicality as opposed to a completely ethereal existence.

Q: (L) Does this interaction produce a by-product?

A: It produces equal by-products of a positive and negative
nature.

Q: (L) And what are these by-products?

A: Which one first?

Q: (L) Positive.

A: Positive by-product is an increase in relative energy
which speeds up the learning process of the soul and all
of it's one dimensional and two dimensional interactive
partners. In other words, flora and fauna, minerals, etc.
All experience growth and movement towards reunion at a
faster rate on the cycle through this short wave cycle
physical/ethereal transfer. Of a negative nature, it
also produces many negative experiences for these very
same entities which otherwise would not exist because
being of a first level and second level nature, flora and
fauna would ordinarily experience a long term or long wave
cycle on the physical plane as opposed to a short wave
cycle physical and ethereal, as they do now because of
their interaction with the human species in its short wave
ethereal/physical cycle.

This was the session I was thinking of when reading Muxel's post. I feel ya, Muxel. I've been in similar states at various points. But lately, I've ramped up my meditating and I've been feeling more appreciative of and grateful for life as it is. I've caught myself a couple of times recently thinking, "This has been a really good day." Nothing special is happening. Just sitting around the dinner table with my friends can make me all smiley. Even knowing about the gigantic turd blossom that's growing and about to erupt on this planet fills me with a sense of awe and wonder. I may not survive it but it is what it is. Hopefully, the C's are right when they say there will be a cleansing. That takes a little bit of sting out of it.

Life is not rainbows and unicorns but I can totally see myself as a part of the soul unit and voting to take the speed course of life on this planet. That this is one big school is the only thing that ever made sense to me as an explanation for life on earth. I don't know why that was the plan for this place but I accept it. It's really all we can do. Each of us has a choice at every moment about what we will do and how our feelings will effect us, whether we will align ourselves with truth or wallow in despair.

 

[Anthony]

I guess we can take solace in understanding that our own view of the world is only a very tiny fraction of the whole. There's is a lot we don't know and probably can't understand at this point. So why take our current view of things as something that is all there is? Yes, the world does seem dark and dreary, but with growth of knowledge and understanding our perception changes.

 

[mkrnhr]

This thread reminds me of a curious quote attributed to Heraclitus: something like "Death is what we see when awake , when we are asleep it is dreams."
This reality is nightmarish and I don't see any real hope in it. Life is what it is and we have little control over it. The little control we have has to do with what we perceive, how we interact with life, and whether we consciously align with truth or delusion (wishful thinking, a dream within a dream).

Limiting our perception to the physical world, things do not make sense at all, it's all nonsense. However, extending our perception simultaneously to many different levels of analysis (physical, metaphysical, etc.) allows us at least to give sense to the nonsense and to put things into a relative context. One possible analogy would be when one realizes during a funny dream (or nightmare) that s/he's dreaming. OSIT ATM

 

[luke wilson]

Sometimes it helps to be specific and not abstract...

The following is speculative and off-tangent from the line of responses thus far...

Is it all our own fault? Why did we do it?

....

Did we know, pre-incarnatively, what we were getting ourselves into? Were we naive, and expected humans to be more than what they are - which is biological automatons?

etc

then

Life is tough, all too tough, and sometimes I don't even know why I got myself into this in the first place.

...

I am so very tired, and so weary of this life.

...

I'm tired of how life makes some suffer while others revel. I'm tired of all the competition that is inbuilt into our biology, and by extension, culture. I'm tired of how all this is Nature's "Grand Design".

Above, there is an interesting thing going on between the "we" and "I"... it's like how humanistic subjects talk about "universalism" but really, they are referring to imperial agendas...

Then there is your recent posting history which indicates you have been going through a tough time...

I kept asking, "Why? Why why why? Why are we humans subjected to this pain throughout our lifetimes, as if life were not already challenging enough?"

Before that, the last spurt of messages came between March 05 and March 19... that was triggered by the stuff in PoEs thread

it's like everything on here, the info, the C's, whatever, is your pulpit to make you feel good about yourself while you do all this stuff in the background,

and you want to lecture the world about PSYCHOPATHS??!!

I am so highly disappointed, sometimes I can't reconcile how there is so much great information channeled here, and yet... all this.

then we go back to January 2016 where you start a thread "on Death"

Then we have a little thank you for a card you received on 23 Dec... then back to July 2015 where you start a thread about requesting we ask Cs personal questions. Also in that same month you started another thread titled... bringers of the dawn redux. Before that, we have to go back to September 2014. In 2014, you were posting quite regularly but right before you went off-grid, one of your last threads was titled: "Desperately Want to Change My Life"

My perception

I think this thread is less about "humanity" and more about you, muxel. I think most of the little bits and bobs you've engaged in sparsely over the last year, have been a reflection of what's going on with you. What has got me consistently over all this time since 2014 is that you always try and be abstract and put things in a way that they appear not to have any personal links to you... e.g. in this latest thread, asking, Is it all our own fault? Why did we do it?

Even though the question is valid and can generate responses based on this abstract formation... I read it as "Is it all my own fault? Why did I do it?"

Also another observation... I think you tried to leave the forum and I thought you did... but somehow you kept coming back in... you left due to frustration... not getting the answers or resolutions you wanted... answers that will translate to your life.... then you went out but it seems you just can't escape the suffering... the suffering also seems to push you back here... asking more questions BUT mainly seeking some sort of final answer, final solution. I also think that you hope channelled material is where this final answer or solution lies in.

It seems that you've been suffering for a while Muxel and you just can't shake it.

If you want people to give you advice that will help you or things that are more specific to your situation... then you have to ask specific questions. Otherwise, you'll just spin around in abstract thoughts whereas all you are looking for is how to help you out.

I've asked you this a couple of times before in some of the threads you've started (e.g. here) but I suspect like before... you'll go awol for awhile then turn up later down the line somewhere else with another similar post or thread. PS, don't worry, I'll be there asking you the same questions. :)

 

[wanderingthomas]

The answer is simple - we "did it" to learn.

I have been through quite difficult times during the last year or so, with emotional and physical events happening which eventually led to me seeing more and more the person I've become, the emotions I was having under the surface, the loads of mistakes I've been doing in my short 20 year life and so on. Suffering in a way leads to more and more clarity.

After all of this, it became clear to me that what happened happened and the only thing you can do from now on is day by day do the right things which you know are right for you more and more, as much as you can at that moment. I am not fully there yet but I'll get there.

Then I've assumed this mindset - difficulty and suffering aren't an injustice or a thwarting of a pre-determined, pre-imagined easy and perfect life you and everyone else should have - difficulty and suffering happen for a reason and most importantly they are an opportunity - an opportunity to learn.

And we must be aware of this. There is no other way. If we just sit and lament about how difficult it is, it is never going to get better. And boy did it not get better for me, it went straight to hell, all included.

We need to detach ourselves as much as we can from the situation but at the same time accept all of the emotions that come along, observe them and try to understand their purpose and cause as much we can.

The only way we can hope to "wake up" to a better future is to do the right things for ourselves. Take care of ourselves. And that includes all that is in The Work including observing reality and being engaged in life. Shutting out reality isn't a viable option - it will only lead to further suffering. After all, "Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God." - Cs

A lot of you have been writing that there is no hope - and yes in general, in terms of all of humanity, hope is close to none. That is if we define hope as the chance of a significant portion of humanity waking up and smelling the ashes. But you can of course look at it differently - people on some level chose this and this entire arrangement of the world and now all that is left for everyone is to experience life in a way determined by collective and personal lessons + all of the challenges that come along with 3D life which are incorporated into the lessons.

There is another hope though - and that is hope that arises when you acquire the tools and knowledge to fight and when you start utilizing them and seeing more and more they give you a chance to eventually get to a future that you seek. The hope that comes when you realize there is a chance to breakthrough from the cycle of suffering, that there is a purpose to this life.

Giving up is not an option. We must ride this wheel.

As the Cs said (and I paraphrase): "Do the right thing as much as you can every day and yourselves in the future will bridge the gap."

 

[obyvatel]

From The Sufi Path of Knowledge; "If the object of the call responds, he is named obedient and becomes felicitous. If he does not respond, he is named disobedient and becomes wretched. You may object and say; How can a divine name call and the engendered thing refuse to respond, given that it is week and must accept the divine power? We will answer: It does not refuse to respond in respect of itself and it's own reality, since it is constantly overpowered. But since it is under the overpowering sway of a divine name, that name does not let it respond to the name which calls to it. Hence there is conflict among the divine names. However, the names are equals, so the ruling property belongs to the actual possessor, which is the name in whose hand the thing is when the second name calls to it. The possessor is stronger through the situation."

"You may object: But his ignorance derives from a divine name whose property governs him. We answer: Ignorance is a quality pertaining to nonexistence; it is not ontological. But the divine names bestow only existence; they do not bestow nonexistence. So the ignorance belongs to the very self of him who is called."

For me, Jungian psychology has helped understand the above in a more practical context. Replace "divine names" with archetypes. Different archetypes get constellated (energized) in different situations at the collective and personal levels of experience. Whether we are able to recognize the forces at play and position ourselves appropriately depends more on our personal development. In the absence of personal understanding and discrimination, we come under the collective zeitgeist.

Take the concept of justice and the understandable human lamentation that it does not exist. But as Gurdjieff wrote in Beelzebub's Tales, we have little idea of how justice works. Consider the global picture where advancements in medical and technological fields lead to higher life spans and lower infant mortality rates without any commensurate increase in consciousness and responsibility. Result is over-population. So in this situation, a sort of correction for the imbalance in energy at the higher level is likely.

We take more from "nature" but are giving back less. Most of what we give back we do so involuntarily; and most of what we give back to nature involuntarily happens at the time of death. If the above framework is objective, then the situation constellates archetypes which are destructive from the human perspective. We see influence of this archetype when we observe what we perceive as human injustice in the forms of wars, exploitation, health hazards etc. through human agency. The agency here is human, but the inspiration is the "divine name/archetype" of destruction. And when we "call for the comets" in frustration, we are also siding with this archetype.

At the same time however, as a compensation, the "hero or saviour" archetype is also constellated. We look for heroes, and the collective projection falls on suitable (or not-so-suitable) candidates. This energizes the hero's activities as others cheer them and support them onwards; in turn it also provides positive purpose for the supporters.

Our passive lamentations that heros are dead and all is lost is also likely under archetypal influence - but here the archetypal influence is not so direct and clear like the previous two examples. It is more mixed with personal psychology, and what is referred to as the negative aspect of the mother complex in Jungian psychology.

[quote author=genero81]
Knowledge protects. There is a divide between densities which is why lies, deception, and manipulation are the ways in which most are utilized. I do not agree that the completely blind and mechanical are to be envied. To be awake is to be alive and I for one choose life. I do not judge it, I merely participate in it through the conscious choices I make via Knowledge.
[/quote]

I agree .

Another way to look at the "blind and mechanical" is to see them as being under the influence of the collective unconscious - or what is referred to in 4th Way as the General Law. They are neither to be envied nor to be pitied. They do not need any "saving" from any human agency at least. They are also under the influence of the ruling "divine name/archetype" of the times, and they are doing their bidding, albeit unconsciously.

 

[John G]

I'm tired of how life makes some suffer while others revel. I'm tired of all the competition that is inbuilt into our biology, and by extension, culture. I'm tired of how all this is Nature's "Grand Design".

Hard a it is to do so - it is imperative that throughout these hugely depressing times - ie The valley of the Shadow - we keep in mind the bigger universe (al) picture. Meaning how this opportunity is actually an extension of LOVE - a meaning of love that us earthlings struggle to understand.

Put it this way, in the absence of any other coherent cosmology (and it IS in absence) the one provided by the Cs is pretty good. If we go into the future with that in the back of our minds, and it proves true, then it's all good. If it proves wrong, then we'll fall back on "farther along we'll understand why".

The grand design certainly seems to have given us even individually (my wife's job situation is a lawyer involved mess right now) a valley of the Shadow to go through. I think the design via the Cs is correct. I think the design via Ark is correct even if I sometimes seem to like his work several orders of magnitude more than he likes his own work. There's versions of the universe where Laura stayed with her first husband (things could be worse); there's probably versions where the valley of the Shadow didn't have to be this bad, but I think we basically are where we most probably were going to end up.

It's good that this forum formed and that we came here knowing at least enough not to think this forum was nuts. At least we can say we don't like the situation while having an amazingly informed view of the situation throughout history. We may not like even our own biology, but we know things that likely will be even more useful farther along.

A block of lyrics from the Trouble in Shangri-La song/album/tour (the tour was 20 minutes from ground zero on 9-11-2001):

You can consume all the beauty in the room, baby
I know you can, I've seen you do it
And it brings up the wind
And it rises around you in pillars of color

But the promise has been broken
As you walk through the shadow of death
You try to see no evil
But you are heartbroken
You say, dear God, make it stop!

Before the dawn of separation
Brings up the wind
Rises around you
I hear there's trouble in Shangri-La
Pillars of color
Trouble in Shangri-La
I make accommodations for you

I guess we don't believe
That things could go that far
We all believe in people...
That we think believe in God
Somewhere in the night...
Someone feels the pain
The ones who walk away
Try to love again...

A block of lyrics from Twisted, the 2nd performance of which (after the singer's hometown) was in St. Petersburg, Florida on 7-4-1996 which is I think the day before Laura first heard from Ark:

You think you hear demons
I think we are the demons
In this place where the images are born
You remember your childhood
Oh, in fiery sequences
The sun goes down

Filling the air with colors
And winds lift you up to God
It'll lift you up to God

You fall to your knees
You embrace the storm
You no longer care
If it's cold or if it's warm
You live for the danger
Like your passion and your anger
You don't let go

You like to be twisted by the force
You like to be shaken by the wind
In this game that you play with God
You've been warned to retreat

You take it to the limit
When the winds come up
Crazy men, crazy women
Cryin' out for love

 

[Mikey]

I am so very tired, and so weary of this life. There is no "justice" to be had, and it is just wishful thinking to expect 99.999999% of humans to be anything more than what they are[/i].

I understand your feelings, Muxel. They are a daily battle for most of us. But I would like to take up your play with numbers to bring across my point.

I agree that at times everything feels very hopeless and painful, like 99.999999% hopeless. But that means that there is a 0.000001% chance that it is NOT so. A tiny chance that there IS a better world and a possibility for evolution into it. I personally am betting on that tiny fraction of a percent. Because if I'm wrong, then nothing has mattered anyway. Also, the very fact that we are alive and can look at the (non man-made) stars at the sky is proof enough for me that there is MORE.

 

[obyvatel]

The following is speculative and off-tangent from the line of responses thus far...

......

My perception

I think this thread is less about "humanity" and more about you, muxel. I think most of the little bits and bobs you've engaged in sparsely over the last year, have been a reflection of what's going on with you. What has got me consistently over all this time since 2014 is that you always try and be abstract and put things in a way that they appear not to have any personal links to you... e.g. in this latest thread, asking, Is it all our own fault? Why did we do it?

Even though the question is valid and can generate responses based on this abstract formation... I read it as "Is it all my own fault? Why did I do it?"

I am mostly in agreement with the above. It is up to Muxel whether he is really interested in engaging meaningfully about himself in this forum or deal with abstractions. So in a sense, the "I hear ya Muxel" sentiment expressed here may act as motivation for Muxel to do something other than what he has been doing over the years with respect to the forum. However, I have seen this solidarity expressed earlier in some other threads in response to Muxel's frustrations before - and I have not really seen anything that shows that it has been helpful for him. That does not mean it did not help. At the end of the day, it is up to Muxel to make what he wishes and is able to out of such interactions. The general discussion on the "existential" questions he brought up may be helpful to others.

 

[seek10]

Oracle's masterful advice.

http://<iframe width="420" height="...9o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Buddy]

To answer from my understanding of the C's, I'd primarily use the examples of the short and long wave cycles and the seeking of sensation.

For me, the long wave cycle is the movement of life itself with its pure awareness or pure perception. The short wave cycle is the "I" which is a bundle of knowledge about self and its world, gathered within the structure of 'time' which life itself cares nothing about. Life and life's own deep awareness of itself is what you really are but through an ability of thought, or the I and its machinations, to ride above and parallel to life and to translate sensation in the body into knowledge and meaning, this "I" hopes to make a concise and accurate map of reality as a way of speeding up its lessons.

So, I is a squatter in the body, using its symbolic self as an interface to the body's energy to power all the knowledge gathering, contemplation, etc at a faster pace than what the long wave movement of life itself can do.

It seems that somewhere along the way, I forgot that it was life itself and came to believe that its continuance depended on repeating its knowledge of itself over and over, constantly telling itself that it's alive, is a body, is this name and that name. And on top of all that, is busy naming and describing everything it sees and experiences around it all the time, relentlessly. I never stops its dialog with itself, let alone stops long enough to ask why, if it is real, does it continually have to repeat its own description of itself...and to whom is it repeating all this.

And, as it happens, when thought, the internal dialog or internal considering comes in, there's a break from the real awareness of life or the movement of life itself and its pure, wordless awareness. Whenever we're "thinking" we are not living or "knowing" the movement of life (or our real selves). And since we never stop the dialog, we stay stuck in the binary thinking modes and the energy of the body circulates in negentropic positive feedback loops. Somehow we substitute the sensation/pleasure seeking movement for a knowledge of "being alive" such that when we don't feel pleasure, we feel pain. And when no pleasure seems forthcoming, what is left but suffering?

We are squatters in our bodies and we learn to misuse its energy for our own aggrandizement and the body is the one in pain. "I" must translate that as its own pain otherwise be forced to become aware that it is only there to seek pleasure.

Based on my own inferences from various materials, if I, as thought, functioned within the natural rhythm of life, or the body's life, it would allow itself to die and be reborn millions of times over the course of the life of the body its housed in. As something to think about comes up, the 'thinker' comes up, resolves the issue and goes away only to be reborn again later. It could allow this death and rebirth in the body as long as it didn't lose knowledge of its true being as life itself.

But we did forget. And now, even when we think we remember, we are only animating concepts and symbols...the visceral awareness of this knowledge isn't there. So we live in illusion. How to get it back? Maybe its not possible. Maybe it is possible. Maybe there is a triggering mechanism somewhere in the body that can help once something reaches a critical mass. Maybe Gurdjieff knew about it but couldn't lead people close enough to it. Maybe he thought his books and the practice of sounding out the text would do it. Maybe a lot of things.

Let your mind slow down. Practice this and see what happens. Maybe something will happen.

Well, it's a bit of a theory, anyway, based on where I'm at now, which is probably nowhere.