Is it too late to start a university degree? And is there any point?

[Fluffy]

Thanks for starting this thread.
Just what I needed
My partner wants to quit work and open a coffee shop. I like the idea of having our own business and I more so like he idea of making healthier low carb cakes and cookies to go along with the coffee and teas. I love baking and don't do it so much anymore because I want to taste all of my creations- and cakes are not very keto.... I've made a few that are very low carb- that's if I only have one bit but because I think cake should have it's own food group it's rare that I stop at one bit even if I don't want to eat it.

Oh and not to mention my partner works at Australian department of defence as a contractor doing networking stuff and comes home every day riddled with yukko energies he shares with us all. Anything would be better than what he does now...

Time to manifest destiny I think!

 

[Keyhole]

Thanks to all of those on this thread who have given me valuable advice, because it provided me with the courage to start what I thought I wanted to do.

After almost a year of studying and planning for uni:

I feel completely disillusioned with the whole idea. It has lost it's colour. For me, it just seems like a complete waste of time and energy. Energy that could be spent practically. It feels like a grey existence. This Work is the only thing that is of any real importance. Everything else is merely a carriage for the Work. To live, to be an effective obyvatel, to participate in the Work.

Everyday life just appears dull now. University, career prospects... it's all just part of the façade. Nothing changes, nothing I could ever learn at a mainstream university could provide me with what I actually want to know.

A recent shock has really put some things into perspective. So I thank you all again, because if I had not spent this past year doing what I did... I would not have learnt these valuable lessons and I would not be where I am now.

 

[luke wilson]

Thanks to all of those on this thread who have given me valuable advice, because it provided me with the courage to start what I thought I wanted to do.

After almost a year of studying and planning for uni:

I feel completely disillusioned with the whole idea. It has lost it's colour. For me, it just seems like a complete waste of time and energy. Energy that could be spent practically. It feels like a grey existence. This Work is the only thing that is of any real importance. Everything else is merely a carriage for the Work. To live, to be an effective obyvatel, to participate in the Work.

Everyday life just appears dull now. University, career prospects... it's all just part of the façade. Nothing changes, nothing I could ever learn at a mainstream university could provide me with what I actually want to know.

A recent shock has really put some things into perspective. So I thank you all again, because if I had not spent this past year doing what I did... I would not have learnt these valuable lessons and I would not be where I am now.

You are ditching the degree?

Keyhole... what's plan B?

I had no idea how young you are until you mentioned it in another thread. How do you intend to be an effective obyvatel without a degree? What will you do? Most entry level jobs require a degree as a minimum requirement in the UK and even with that, no guarantees but you stand a better chance... What's plan B?

 

[Keyhole]

You are ditching the degree?

Keyhole... what's plan B?

I had no idea how young you are until you mentioned it in another thread. How do you intend to be an effective obyvatel without a degree? What will you do? Most entry level jobs require a degree as a minimum requirement in the UK and even with that, no guarantees but you stand a better chance... What's plan B?

Technically the degree doesn't start until September. A career in neuroscience or psychology just doesn't sound appealing to me any more...

1. Looking at the state of the worlds economy, I see no good reason to just walk into £50'000 worth of debt. No amount of mainstream education or pieces of paper saying "degree" are worth that.

2.For the year I have been studying hard to get onto uni course, and the amount of energy I spend day in day out simply doesn't seem worth it. My hearts not in it any more

Plan B : Go full time at work. Buy a car. Prepare for hard times to come. Learn practical skills that can be put to use outside of an institutionalised setting and can benefit myself and others in times of upheaval.

 

[riclapaz]

You are ditching the degree?

Keyhole... what's plan B?

I had no idea how young you are until you mentioned it in another thread. How do you intend to be an effective obyvatel without a degree? What will you do? Most entry level jobs require a degree as a minimum requirement in the UK and even with that, no guarantees but you stand a better chance... What's plan B?

Technically the degree doesn't start until September. A career in neuroscience or psychology just doesn't sound appealing to me any more...

1. Looking at the state of the worlds economy, I see no good reason to just walk into £50'000 worth of debt. No amount of mainstream education or pieces of paper saying "degree" are worth that.

2.For the year I have been studying hard to get onto uni course, and the amount of energy I spend day in day out simply doesn't seem worth it. My hearts not in it any more

Plan B : Go full time at work. Buy a car. Prepare for hard times to come. Learn practical skills that can be put to use outside of an institutionalised setting and can benefit myself and others in times of upheaval.

Without knowing the details of your life Keyhole , what you are saying, I think I would too, may be of some risky way, but everything in life has a risk, so that I will applaud your courage.

 

[luke wilson]

I don't know what's coming ahead Keyhole... But I do know the world has been ending for a very long time...

I only speak from my personal experience here...

1. Looking at the state of the worlds economy, I see no good reason to just walk into £50'000 worth of debt. No amount of mainstream education or pieces of paper saying "degree" are worth that.

The above is an excuse. It's something you are telling yourself to justify quitting. To essentially make you feel good about quitting or less bad about it. Something about people... they always need a reason to do something. Don't always believe the reasons you are telling yourself... some of them are not true.

2.For the year I have been studying hard to get onto uni course, and the amount of energy I spend day in day out simply doesn't seem worth it. My hearts not in it any more

So you found you actually have to do some hard work? The route wasn't a walk in the park. You had to apply yourself.. so you give up for greener pastures?

Plan B : Go full time at work. Buy a car. Prepare for hard times to come. Learn practical skills that can be put to use outside of an institutionalised setting and can benefit myself and others in times of upheaval.

What's your work? Look 10 years down the line... where are you? Have you given yourself, your future family, your future kids, your partner the best possible chance by making the correct choices now? look at it this way... the world descends into chaos whilst you were busy studying to be a neuroscientist... ok, you don't have the necessary skills you think you need to survive the turmoil... simple. Study neuroscience and learn the skills on the side. On the other hand, the world doesn't descend into the chaos you have pictured in your mind... you have now finished your studies and are starting out as a psychologist or neuroscientist... on the side you spent time building practical skills.... WHAT HAVE YOU LOST? The only way NOT to lose is to DO BOTH! You ditch your degree, you are betting on the world descending into what you have in your brain... That is a BIG bet to make.

Prepare for hard times to come. True, but is this a reason to quit? Plus hard times have always been coming... FOREVER.

Learn practical skills.. Again, very commendable but is this a reason to quit? Can you not learn practical skills whilst still being a student?

Can benefit you and others in times of upheaval? I tell you what I have learnt about chaos... you can plan as much as you want but chaos is called chaos for a reason... when it hits, plans go out the window... it's all about improvisation, being able to move with change. To me this doesn't seem like a good reason to quit. It's another excuse. You can still build all the skills you think you need without quitting.

UK Student Debt... they yank it out your pay when you start working. You hardly notice. They also yank out a whole bunch of taxes. You won't notice them either after awhile... To me, unless the debt is something that you had to collect from a bank with extortionate conditions attached and not the student debt that I remember, I don't think it's a valid reason.

All in all, if you are going to quit, I think you should be honest about it. Your words read to me like you are quitting because you found out it wasn't as easy or as glamorous as you thought. That it involved actual dedication and commitment. What were you expecting when you signed up for a degree in neuroscience or psychology?

I say don't quit just yet... think this through.

After reading some of the psychology books, I have been considering studying Psychology at degree level from home with the 'Open University'.
One 'I' is saying that I SHOULD do the degree because of how much it interests me (well at least before you realized how much work it involves) and that I could actually HELP people, it is a formal qualification which may provide a true career opportunity where I can incorporate my own Work into this.

 

[Mr. Premise]

You should make 100% sure that any particular loan that you get can be forgiven or bankrupted if necessary. The last thing you want is a debt that stays with you for life.

Hlat, university education is WAY cheaper in the UK than in the US. No country but the US makes people take out $200,000 in loans for an education.

 

[lilyalic]

I feel completely disillusioned with the whole idea. It has lost it's colour. For me, it just seems like a complete waste of time and energy. Energy that could be spent practically. It feels like a grey existence. This Work is the only thing that is of any real importance. Everything else is merely a carriage for the Work. To live, to be an effective obyvatel, to participate in the Work.

Everyday life just appears dull now. University, career prospects... it's all just part of the façade. Nothing changes, nothing I could ever learn at a mainstream university could provide me with what I actually want to know.

A recent shock has really put some things into perspective. So I thank you all again, because if I had not spent this past year doing what I did... I would not have learnt these valuable lessons and I would not be where I am now.

I was in University for nearly 2 years and decided to leave, for many personal reasons. But, I did feel like it was a waste of time and energy (especially because I was doing Psychology) I'd be at home reading all these Psychology books and The Wave etc, and then have to go into University and learn some crappy theories, it kind of became a chore! I was learning more in books, who gives a heck about the degree? Sure its easier to "get a job" but we can always work our way up IN jobs. I don't regret going, because it got me out of my home town and allowed me to GROW UP, get away from my dissociation town. So I do realize it's what needed to be done.

The University life (Drugs, alcohol, sex) is just ridiculous and it was never my scene. I'd always be the one to stay in on my own because the people my age just all seemed to be organic portals (cardboard cutouts) ready for the next stimulation.

 

[Carl]

All I can say is that, after 4 years in University, I have very little interest left in my subject area. If I'm honest, my biggest reason for even returning after the gap year was just to have another year of living the fairly "easy" uni life. After so long begrudgingly studying computers, I'd be happy to dig holes for a living.

In the end, I think you'll find full time work equally as bleak and unappealing, but that's just part of life. We find our meaning elsewhere and simply use life circumstances such as jobs for an opportunity for learning. The thing is, at least you get paid for work :).

Let's say for instance that in 4 years the world is still, by some god-awful miracle, in the exact same state that it is today, i.e. a very slow, grinding slide into chaos. Would you rather have spent the past years studying, learning a lot but having no money, and finally ready to have a professional job earning a decent wage? Or would you rather have spent the past years working, saving, acquiring resources and useful knowledge in your spare time?

Since you're studying from home and the uni life is not part of your motivations, then there is really no rush to do it while you're young.

 

[luc]

Hi Keyhole,

Just some thoughts - may I ask you if you had difficulties taking decisions in the past? As in: starting something with enthusiasm, then suddenly loosing interest, constantly thinking about "other options" etc.? I'm asking because that's something I struggled and still struggle with. When I was at university, instead of just doing what I was supposed to do, I oftentimes checked out other options, other studies, other ways... This can be a trap, I think. For example, who says that if you cancel uni, get a job and do some survival training course, that you don't develop the very same doubts as in relation to your degree? I mean, reality constantly changes, as do our "little I's", and maybe you will say "oh, this survival course seems not worth it, they teach only stuff that will not matter much based on my information", or you may say "this job is not worth the energy I have to spend, I have no time for nothing else and don't get paid well" etc. I think the predator's mind can be quite tricky, constantly steering us away from any real work, any real commitment, with quite convincing arguments. But these are just some thoughts that may or may not apply to your situation. And of course, Carl and others have a point too, if you think you can find a good job/a career without degree and "work yourself up", while still having time for other things, that could be a better option (do you think you can find such a job?), and of course debt is a problem.

That being said, I would think it's a good idea not to anticipate too much, no matter how you decide, because we know that things will always play out differently than we thought/planned and that the universe is full of surprises.

 

[Alada]

I don't know what's coming ahead Keyhole... But I do know the world has been ending for a very long time...

I only speak from my personal experience here...

1. Looking at the state of the worlds economy, I see no good reason to just walk into £50'000 worth of debt. No amount of mainstream education or pieces of paper saying "degree" are worth that.

The above is an excuse. It's something you are telling yourself to justify quitting. To essentially make you feel good about quitting or less bad about it. Something about people... they always need a reason to do something. Don't always believe the reasons you are telling yourself... some of them are not true.

Well, while there is a certain irony in not wanting a large Uni debt. and aiming to prepare for the worst instead (in which case all such debts will be moot). I don’t think from Keyholes overall input that this is his only reason, or “excuse” as you put it.

How much debt did you come away from Uni with Luke Wilson? How does that make you feel?

Of course we all have our reasons for whatever we do indeed, yes, often we lie to ourselves, other times we act out of fears based on ‘doing what is expected of us’ programmed into us by our parents/society. Other times we just do everything mechanically and are basically asleep at the wheel.

Sometimes though there is no reason at all, other than an idea of what might be. If one is aiming to head towards a reality that doesn’t exist for us yet – to the point that we can’t even predict the best route towards it – then who is to say what is the best course? In the end don’t we have to rely on our own ability to work it out for ourselves (for better or worse), and learn the lessons along the way. Isn’t that how we learn? Again, not just fall back on doing what is expected of us, or what we feel obliged to do to fit into predefined boxes.

There are many folk here who have no degree and are doing just fine. Maybe it is better to just do what you enjoy as the Cs have suggested and follow that path – wherever it goes. All there is is lessons.

2.For the year I have been studying hard to get onto uni course, and the amount of energy I spend day in day out simply doesn't seem worth it. My hearts not in it any more

So you found you actually have to do some hard work? The route wasn't a walk in the park. You had to apply yourself.. so you give up for greener pastures?

To me, the above comes across like the voice of an angry parent. We ALL fail at times and we find that we actually have to apply ourselves, not just let everything happen mechanically. Some things take time and practice to work out.

Who is to say that Keyhole won’t reconsider and come back to the idea at some future point, having spent time ‘out there’. To do the angry parent routine forces thoughts in directions that are not freewill choices. How can anyone predict what is the best choice for Keyhole, other than Keyhole himself?

Plan B : Go full time at work. Buy a car. Prepare for hard times to come. Learn practical skills that can be put to use outside of an institutionalised setting and can benefit myself and others in times of upheaval.

What's your work? Look 10 years down the line... where are you? Have you given yourself, your future family, your future kids, your partner the best possible chance by making the correct choices now? look at it this way... the world descends into chaos whilst you were busy studying to be a neuroscientist... ok, you don't have the necessary skills you think you need to survive the turmoil... simple. Study neuroscience and learn the skills on the side. On the other hand, the world doesn't descend into the chaos you have pictured in your mind... you have now finished your studies and are starting out as a psychologist or neuroscientist... on the side you spent time building practical skills.... WHAT HAVE YOU LOST?

You’re only thinking in terms of pre-defined career pathways, the “10 years down the line” thing. Again, sounds like the kind of thing your parents would say. Reality is a lot more random and chaotic than that, there are all sorts of ways to use your initiative and create reality for yourself. You can’t create the reality of being a structural engineer or whatever it is without the relevant education and qualifications, but there are endless possibility outside of that. Your way of thinking on this seems limited, restricting.

Not to say that it doesn’t apply IF Keyhole’s calling is to follow a certain career to which the pathways are known. At this point though it doesn’t sound as if he is sure, so what’s wrong with taking time to figure it out – he can always change his mind right?

 

[s-kur]

Hi Keyhole!

I agree with Alada.
What's the heck? There are too many ways to get money in the world not being a slave at all, moreover, having an opportunity change your "profession". Such a way doesn't convert you into a jelly fulfilled with fears and doubts about to change smth. Anyway you never will be completely defended with your degree. So, I really support Keyhole's speculating regarding his issue. Maybe, just because I've chosen the same way 5 years ago but still I have no regrets. And I sure that the decision led me here and to the being I'm in now. Moreover I would barely have the skills I have at the moment regarding life and work area. Yes, I had (and still have) some difficulties and troubles, though I didn't call them so. It was just a situations that were exausted themselves.
You know life really is religion. And the Work is closer to religion than uni\degree, hence, the Work is closer to life. I don't exclude that there's way to proceed at both directions. But what will be an outcome looks like?

 

[ashu]

2.For the year I have been studying hard to get onto uni course, and the amount of energy I spend day in day out simply doesn't seem worth it. My hearts not in it any more

That is a good enough a reason as in you do not have a burning desire / your heart not really being into it. As pointed out, you are still young so who knows, maybe in the future you may reconsider or as Alada mentions just follow the path and see where it leads you...

 

[Keyhole]

I don't know what's coming ahead Keyhole... But I do know the world has been ending for a very long time...

I only speak from my personal experience here...

1. Looking at the state of the worlds economy, I see no good reason to just walk into £50'000 worth of debt. No amount of mainstream education or pieces of paper saying "degree" are worth that.

The above is an excuse. It's something you are telling yourself to justify quitting. To essentially make you feel good about quitting or less bad about it. Something about people... they always need a reason to do something. Don't always believe the reasons you are telling yourself... some of them are not true.

Luke, I think you are projecting here. Perhaps if you chose against going to university, you might perceive this as making excuses and quitting for yourself. But how can you be sure that this is the applies to me? And if I didn't even begin the degree... what exactly am I quitting here? I'm choosing to engage in life. Not to run away from it.

2.For the year I have been studying hard to get onto uni course, and the amount of energy I spend day in day out simply doesn't seem worth it. My hearts not in it any more

So you found you actually have to do some hard work? The route wasn't a walk in the park. You had to apply yourself.. so you give up for greener pastures?

Again, you are making the assumption that I have given up because I think it will be easier to take another route.

And like Carl said, the university life could probably be described as "fairly easy" : You get your loan and your get your grant given to you on a plate. You essentially live for free until you have to pay it back. With my grades I would be given a £2000 annual scholarship ontop of a £1500 annual bursary ontop of a £7000 maintenance loan/grant allong with £1000 from my parents (they insist). That's an annual annual £11'500 wage. THIS is the easy route my friend. The idea of going out in the big bad world having to work a job that I probably don't enjoy and fend for myself is actually what I have been fighting with.

Plan B : Go full time at work. Buy a car. Prepare for hard times to come. Learn practical skills that can be put to use outside of an institutionalised setting and can benefit myself and others in times of upheaval.

What's your work? Look 10 years down the line... where are you? Have you given yourself, your future family, your future kids, your partner the best possible chance by making the correct choices now? look at it this way... the world descends into chaos whilst you were busy studying to be a neuroscientist... ok, you don't have the necessary skills you think you need to survive the turmoil... simple. Study neuroscience and learn the skills on the side. On the other hand, the world doesn't descend into the chaos you have pictured in your mind... you have now finished your studies and are starting out as a psychologist or neuroscientist... on the side you spent time building practical skills.... WHAT HAVE YOU LOST? The only way NOT to lose is to DO BOTH! You ditch your degree, you are betting on the world descending into what you have in your brain... That is a BIG bet to make.

But Luke, how can any of us be sure what will happen in the next 10 years? This is black and white thinking. And I am wondering, is this what YOUR parents told you? You are also making the assumption that I am making this decision out of fear of what is to come in the future. Have you considered that maybe I just don't want to rely on loans and grants for the next seven years? Its really not as black and white as : If you get a degree - you get a job.

Honestly asking myself the question : Do I really want a career in academia? I have come to the honest conclusion that no, I do not.

The only thing I could picture myself doing was lecturing. And even that is because of my programmes to lecture and talk at people and the ego-boost I get when people listen to me speak.

All in all, if you are going to quit, I think you should be honest about it. Your words read to me like you are quitting because you found out it wasn't as easy or as glamorous as you thought. That it involved actual dedication and commitment. What were you expecting when you signed up for a degree in neuroscience or psychology?

I say don't quit just yet... think this through.

I appreciate your consideration Luke, but I think you have misinterpreted where I am coming from with this. This decision is not based on fear, but based on knowledge that I am beginning to gain of myself. Trying to see things objectively : The world may collapse, It may not collapse. Either way, I need to find my own strengths and weaknesses. I think I'm quite good with my hands, I also think I can see things from a more practical perspective. Therefore I should be able to put this to use. And what happens if I don't go this year? Does this mean that I can never apply again in the future if I did choose to? Like Lilyalic said, most of this stuff can be learnt from books. I have an interest in Neuroscience - The Polyvagal theory, Archaeology of Mind, In an Unspoken Voice, Brain Changer - These are all books that help me apply neuroscience to my own life and my own development. That is all I truly wanted from this... To be able to apply my knowledge and understanding to help me become a better person. I can research topics, post articles for SOTT and maybe even eventually write articles for SOTT. IMO this is an effective way to serve others, and a career incorporating neuroscience isn't the "be all and end all".

Just some thoughts - may I ask you if you had difficulties taking decisions in the past? As in: starting something with enthusiasm, then suddenly loosing interest, constantly thinking about "other options" etc.?

If I examine my behaviour, it actually seems to be the opposite way round luc. If I begin something with enthusiasm, I usually become one-track minded and do all that I can to complete the task - even to my own detriment. This happens even with novel things such as cooking, or making those recipe videos for the forum. I become too identified, lose myself in what I am doing and end up putting myself under unnecessary amounts of stress. It becomes like a fixation. I have got some serious issues with narcissism and perfectionism which I think stem back to my relationship with my father. He was very much the same in that respect. It wasn't easy to come to this decision, and I was sitting on the fence for a while. I think I was lying to myself the whole time about actually wanting to study. I went travelling immediately after finishing school and then worked, so I think I felt like I was missing out on something. I couldn't have learnt that didn't want to study if I hadn't of started this year. That was what my post was essentially saying - a thank you to all those who have helped me learn this lesson.

 

[luke wilson]

Cool. Maybe you are right. After all, this is a discussion where different viewpoints are permitted.

For me, I did maths with economics at uni. It wasn't a waste of time. I enjoyed meeting people from all over the world. I enjoyed listening to the lecturers and noticing their unique quirks. Uni allowed me to leave home and get my first real taste of the world. In hindsight, I wouldn't have not gone to uni. I finished only 4 yrs ago.

In terms of debt, I don't notice my student debt. Yeah, they deduct a certain amount from my pay every month, they also deduct income tax and national insurance contributions. The student debt system here in the UK is not like in the US.

Workwise, without a degree, I would not be working where I am. Simple, most entry level jobs nowadays require a degree as a minimum. I have spoken to many people without degrees, young people looking to start somewhere, looking beyond stacking shelves, working at a warehouse, retail etc... And they say most places wont look twice at you if you don't have a degree. A guy I know has passion for computers and programming... He wants to work in IT... No one will take him because he dropped out of uni...

Yeah, there are lots of young people with good, life affirming jobs, making a good living who never went to uni or dropped out. There are even millionares and billionares. However, as a percentage to their peers, they are a minority. The exceptions, not the rule.

Ultimately, its your choice. Do as you wish... Please find a way to fulfillment outside the system brought down upon our heads by the PTB. I truly wish you the best of luck and hope you have the fortitude and strength to curve your own path.

I was just telling you... The numbers game is stacked against you. Maybe you are one of the exceptions. Good luck. I personally am risk averse and play it safe. Guys like me don't finish first, we much prefer to manage our risks and not go for the hail marys. No glory to be had by our kind.

I wish you the best keyhole. :)