Is There an Ideal Way of Acting and Being in Male-Female Relationships?

[Alejo]

Now, that's just a good idea.

Funny thing is that it's not just Germany, in Spain for instance they made it as simple as declaring yourself a woman to be recognized legally as one... and what happened was that a whole bunch of men went and declared themselves women because they get a lot more benefits legally.

 

[Alejo]

Here are a couple of poems, absent the twisted trappings of what's being sold today, with pretty decent advice for both young men and women.

Maybe this song fits in the same spirit

Mama told me when I was young
"Come sit beside me, my only son
And listen closely to what I say
And if you do this it'll help you some sunny day"

"Oh, take your time, don't live too fast
Troubles will come and they will pass
You'll find a woman and you'll find love
And don't forget, son, there is someone up above"

"And be a simple kind of man
Be something you love and understand
Baby, be a simple kind of man
Oh, won't you do this for me, son, if you can"

"Forget your lust for the rich man's gold
All that you need is in your soul
And you can do this, oh baby, if you try
All that I want for you, my son, is to be satisfied"

"And be a simple kind of man
Oh, be something you love and understand
Baby, be a simple kind of man
Oh, won't you do this for me, son, if you can"

Oh, yes, I will

"Boy, don't you worry, you'll find yourself
Follow your heart and nothing else
And you can do this, oh baby, if you try
All that I want for you, my son, is to be satisfied"

"And be a simple kind of man
Oh, be something you love and understand
Baby, be a simple kind of man
Oh, won't you do this for me, son, if you can?"

"Baby, be a simple, be a simple man
Oh, be something you love and understand
Baby, be a simple kind of simple man
Oh, won't you do this for me, son, if you can?"

 

[Alejo]

Well, yeah. What would be the point of pretending to be someone you're not? That's just a recipe for unhappiness if a long-term, committed relationship is your goal. I think at the beginning, there's always going to be some impression management, trying to put your best foot forward and trying to seem more put together than you really are, but eventually the real you - which could do with some growth and improvement - is going to emerge. And so that needs to be accepted, or not, by your partner and vice versa.

True, and I suppose the goal, as it always has been with the work here, is to have that initial impression at the beginning to be as close as possible to who you actually are, so that it isn't a lot of impression management but rather a display of your actual being, that way it won't be such a terrible shock once the chemicals wear off and the honey moon passes.

So that the person they fell in love with, and you fell in love with, largely remains there, albeit in a constant state of becoming. And the bad days, mistakes, and sickness and more grounded elements of human existence that affect a person's ability to cope with life and make them moody or whatever, are simply more opportunities to get to know the person.

In that sense, attractiveness becomes a consequence (rather than a goal) of work for different purposes than simply finding a partner. Like the whole, birds have wings because they fly, they don't fly because they have wings. In the western world, we have become exceedingly good at dating, compulsively even, at looking the part and despite all that dating and social interactions.. divorce rates are through the roof.

Which makes sense when you think about it, if your relationship started with impression management, and carried on with that foundation and not a lot of real people were involved, you will chase the next high until you're out of highs to chase, marry then divorce.

I know there's a lot more nuance in human relationships, and the dynamics that govern it, but the statistics do tell a story.

 

[T.C.]

Having a partner who accepts you as you are, will help us to accept ourselves and heal past brokenness and become a better and more mature person.

This is especially true if one’s life experience of relationships, starting with the parent(s) and then with romantic partners, has always been one of conditional love - of being trained to act in ways that please the other and denying how you feel and what you want.

When you’re with someone who loves you as your are, that in itself highlights your love-related programs to you because for a while in the beginning they still run, and their inappropriateness stands out like a sore thumb.

We regulate our behaviour for the people we live with and spend most time with. Sleep patterns and eating schedules are a good example of this. Any of us who spent a period of time living alone surely found that when there’s no one else to consider, it’s more difficult to maintain what are considered more ‘normal’ or healthy routines.

You don’t realise how much the way you act is based on outside factors. When you’re in a relationship with someone who allows you to be yourself and doesn’t pressure you to act in ways that please them, self-awareness of your unhealthy habits and behaviours gets amplified, and the impetus to work on them and on the self comes from this. It’s like, you bury who you really are and how you really want to act, for others. When your traits are buried, you’re unaware of them and can’t work on them.

If you’re with someone who loves you unconditionally, you’re able to safely bring all aspects of yourself into the light, or they just naturally start to come out on their own, and then you can study and examine them due to the fact that you won’t be rejected when they manifest.

 

[BHelmet]

It has seemed strange to me that you draw all those conclusions from what I have said.

It's curious.

Is anything strange anymore? I’m not meaning I am describing you. What you said triggered some thoughts in me. Just thought I’d share.

 

[marek760]

We regulate our behaviour for the people we live with and spend most time with. Sleep patterns and eating schedules are a good example of this. Any of us who spent a period of time living alone surely found that when there’s no one else to consider, it’s more difficult to maintain what are considered more ‘normal’ or healthy routines.

Not necessarily, it's more about habits, people who live alone are certainly able to develop a normal, healthy and efficient lifestyle (I myself am an example of this). and, vice versa, people who appear in their lives can lead to some disorder.

 

[Andromeda]

Hi @Andromeda, I hope You may check and help fill the gaps in my understanding of the first poem by Burns. Attached.

Hey, that was pretty good!! It made me think about some of the passages even more than I did before. I will give my own effort below.

By the way. You cited this poem as an example of important things for relations for men/women? Or not only for relations but in general?
If I understand You correctly - relation between men/women is or should not be concentrating on mundane things... maybe wrong ... that is that our relations if founded on values like those mentioned by Burns: Prudence, Honour, Faith, etc is more important (also in the eyes of women) then worrying or putting much energy into knowing red-pils men art of catching women.

Yes, exactly. It's advice about navigating life and relationships in general. Of being a wise and good person. If a man or woman was to improve on these points, they would not need to use pick up tricks. I see a lot that people reading this manosphere stuff seem to think that becoming attractive by tricks may lead to being a 'real man'. But the fact is, becoming a real man will lead to becoming attractive....amongst other benefits.

And, there is nothing more unmanly, in my opinion, than tricking ladies in this way. Especially since most ladies who can be tricked in the ways that I've read here so far are either young and inexperienced, 2D oriented, or damaged and traumatized. So, anyone playing like who should know better is actually going against their own essence.

I am not sure if I expressed myself clearly. But hope clear enough. So am I correctly seeing Your intention in citing those poems?
That good relation between men and women is on the good ground when both are focusing on high values which are universally important and not only practical usage (usage of knowledge of other human being: men or women alike) which serves basically only self.

Exactly. With a very few exceptions.

Okay, here goes my take below. I'm sure it's not perfect either!

​

Epistle To A Young Friend​

1786
Robert Burns

I Lang hae thought, my youthfu' friend,
A something to have sent you,

I have been thinking a long time on sending something like this to you my young friend.

Tho' it should serve nae ither end
Than just a kind memento:

Though, in the end it might not serve any purpose to you other than being a nice keepsake.

But how the subject-theme may gang,
Let time and chance determine;
Perhaps it may turn out a sang:
Perhaps turn out a sermon.

But how the advice is taken, time and luck will say. Perhaps it will be taken as a song, or perhaps a sermon.

Ye'll try the world soon, my lad;
And, Andrew dear, believe me,
Ye'll find mankind an unco squad,
And muckle they may grieve ye:

You'll experience the real world soon and find most people a disappointing and strange bunch who may cause you grief.

For care and trouble set your thought,
Ev'n when your end's attained;
And a' your views may come to nought,
Where ev'ry nerve is strained.

Your thoughts may be worried and troubled even when you achieve what you want. And all your views and beliefs may amount to nothing when your fortitude is tested.

I'll no say, men are villains a';
The real, harden'd wicked,
Wha hae nae check but human law,
Are to a few restricked;

I won't say that all people are real hardened wicked who are only kept in check by fear of human law (rather than morals). Though there are a few people as wicked as that.

But, Och! mankind are unco weak,
An' little to be trusted;

But, damn! mankind is generally strangely and disappointingly weak, so don't trust too much.

If self the wavering balance shake,
It's rarely right adjusted!

And if you, yourself, act untrustworthy, it will be difficult to correct.

Yet they wha fa' in fortune's strife,
Their fate we shouldna censure;
For still, th' important end of life
They equally may answer;

Don't judge too harshly the unfortunate people in life, they will answer for themselves at the end, as you will too.

A man may hae an honest heart,
Tho' poortith hourly stare him;

A man may have an honest heart and be very poor.

A man may tak a neibor's part,
Yet hae nae cash to spare him.

Or a man may steal from his neighbor and pretend to be poor.

Aye free, aff-han', your story tell,
When wi' a bosom crony;
But still keep something to yoursel',
Ye scarcely tell to ony:

Freely tell your story and thoughts to very close friends, but remember not to be indiscriminately open to everyone.

Conceal yoursel' as weel's ye can
Frae critical dissection;
But keek thro' ev'ry other man,
Wi' sharpen'd, sly inspection.

Don't make it easy for just anyone to critically examine and judge you, but do try to critically examine and rightly judge others.

The sacred lowe o' weel-plac'd love,
Luxuriantly indulge it;

Generously give to and indulge well placed love. It is sacred.

But never tempt th' illicit rove,
Tho' naething should divulge it:

Though never involve yourself in illicit love affairs, even if there's no chance of anyone finding out.

I waive the quantum o' the sin,
The hazard of concealing;
But, Och! it hardens a' within,
And petrifies the feeling!

I'm not judging the concealing so much as letting you know that acting that way will harden your heart.

To catch dame Fortune's golden smile,
Assiduous wait upon her;

If you find yourself lucky and making good money, be grateful and work to keep it.

And gather gear by ev'ry wile
That's justified by honour;

Also use any trick that is justified by honor to become prosperous.

Not for to hide it in a hedge,
Nor for a train attendant;
But for the glorious privilege
Of being independent.

Your money is not for hiding or saving, it is to give you the privilege of being independent.

The fear o' hell's a hangman's whip,
To haud the wretch in order;

Wretched people are only kept in order by the fear of hell and human law.

But where ye feel your honour grip,
Let that aye be your border;

Use your honor and your conscience to keep you in order instead.

Its slightest touches, instant pause-
Debar a' side-pretences;

At the slightest feeling from your conscience, stop pretending and pay attention.

And resolutely keep its laws,
Uncaring consequences.

Keep the laws of your own morality whatever the consequences.

The great Creator to revere,
Must sure become the creature;

The name and ethos of the great Creator can be used hypocritically.

But still the preaching cant forbear,
And ev'n the rigid feature:

But still, whoever is preaching it that way will not make themselves good and beautiful.

Yet ne'er with wits profane to range,
Be complaisance extended;

Though don't let yourself become lazy and profane in regards to God just because that ethos is used badly sometimes.

An atheist-laugh's a poor exchange
For Deity offended!

An atheist may laugh, but it is small comfort when faced with an offended God.

When ranting round in pleasure's ring,
Religion may be blinded;

When you're playing around in 3D pleasures, higher values and spirituality may be forgotten.

Or if she gie a random sting,
It may be little minded;

And if your spirituality complains to you, you may not pay much attention because you are having too much fun.

But when on life we're tempest driv'n-
A conscience but a canker-

But when we're driven in these ways, and conscience in inconvenient and annoying.

A correspondence fix'd wi' Heav'n,
Is sure a noble anchor!

Having a good relationship with higher values and God is sure to help anchor you. So cultivate that.

Adieu, dear, amiable youth!
Your heart can ne'er be wanting!

Goodbye my dear young friend, I hope your heart will never be at a loss.

May prudence, fortitude, and truth,
Erect your brow undaunting!

Let prudence, fortitude, and truth, be what keeps you straight and brave.

In ploughman phrase, "God send you speed,"
Still daily to grow wiser;

In simple terms "good luck" in learning wisdom every day.

And may ye better reck the rede,
Then ever did th' adviser!

And I hope you do a better job at all of this than I did.

 

[Matai]

Really, it has not been a secret. And, if you want to go to the next level and discuss basic and general emotional attraction, it is still mostly as superficial and obvious. Just watch some older movies.

Hey Andromeda, When you say "basic and general emotional attraction" that is featured in older movies, what are these obvious principles? I ask because as a younger man, and even now that I am happily in a relationship but watching other younger/single people, these things never seemed so obvious to me. I was often frustrated by my lack of knowledge in this area and with the generic statements like this that emotional attraction for women is "obvious". I'm not saying I'm frustrated now, and I think I grok what you mean, but can you please spell them out for me so I can be clear as to what they are? Posts like Corvus' seem to echo my younger self in an attempt to grasp what these fundamentals are in a more crude and wrongly (manosphere) influenced way. Perhaps it would be useful, particularly for men, to clearly spell out what these are? FWIW

 

[Andromeda]

Given the title of this thread includes both men and women in terms of behavioural ideals, I wondered if anyone has an opinion on:

1) what the analagous 'red pill' view of male behaviour from a female perspective is,

I think that would be the feminist view.

and therefore what the most effective behavioural strategies are for securing a long term partner,

Be a good and honorable person.

and;

2) what are our visions for the 'ideal' in this regard, if the behaviour were to transcend 'red pill' / General Law norms?

Two people acting honorably toward each other, and honorably towards others for the sake of being worthy of that love. My favorite metaphor is the knight and the lady, as cheesy as anyone might think that sounds. The lady inspires the knight to be honorable and do good deeds for all mankind in order to earn her love, admiration, and respect. Then, the lady, seeing her knight so honorable and good, does more good deeds within her own sphere to maintain her worthiness of his efforts. It can be a positive expanding spiral.

Yeah. I think this shows how inherently narcissistic all of this is. They're trying to stay in control because otherwise their image is at risk.

Yeah. And that's backwards. I think people need to first, and foremost, learn to understand and control themselves. And there is plenty of material out there for doing that.

Again, they seem to think that women are unidimensional beings and that they (the men) are God's gift to the world. No woman in their right mind would decide to leave them when they have all of these "high-value man" qualities. If they did, they're a "hoe".

Justifying a big 'F you' toward someone you're supposed to care about in order to feel good in the most superficial way.

I agree. There are two almost entirely separate things that we're discussing here. Initial attraction and mate selection as opposed to sustaining a long term relationship. There's very little overlap there although people do select based on what they think they want in a lifelong partner, at least the serious ones do.

Yeah, seems to me it's all mixed up. Initial attraction, long term relationships, being a real man or woman, etc. Perhaps it could be made sense of if we organize it correctly.

I agree with this, but unfortunately it is the only popular "philosophy" that espouses some of the basic truths.

What basic truths are you talking about? So far, I haven't seen anything worthwhile that isn't available from other sources. Why this philosophy in particular has become so popular is another issue.

People were brainwashed by the Hollywood idea of romance and this is the antidote.

I don't know, some Hollywood movies do a pretty good job. And even Disney, believe it or not. A lot closer to the truth than this stuff anyway. Though they do tend to focus much of the time on what the man's role is, and not so much the woman. Maybe that's because men need more explicit advice?

I think this is a feature of most of these progressive liberal positions.

Aeneas wasn't being a progressive liberal. He was being a conservative gentleman. His reading of the situation and the execution of his defense was not perfect, but he did read that something pathological was afoot and reacted. I appreciated the gesture even if it wasn't needed in this case.

The biggest racists are the anti racists (and I mean against the blacks even more than whites). The biggest sexists are the feminists (and I mean against women even more than men).
No disrespect to you Aeneas, just an observation on how even with the best intentions we fall prey to the insidiousness of the woke ideology if we accept even a little bit of it.

You are your own example there.

This is probably the most attractive characteristic in a woman for me and something I would never compromise on. And funnily enough, it's the exact opposite of what the manosphere teaches men to look for in a woman. A woman needs to be submissive and mellow. I think they're all pansies.

Seriously. Well, to be fair, some women are just mellow and deferential by nature without it being caused by any pathology or deficiency on her part. But I'm pretty sure that that is rare.

 

[Tauriel]

An example of the rampant sexism going on in Germany.

Now, that's just a good idea.

The woman's claim in the video is incorrect.
Parking spaces for women are not bigger but usually near the exits to make passage more safe.
There's the reality though of wider parking spaces for women but this is in case they've little kids onboard.

From wikipedia:

Background

Since the 1990s, studies have documented that many women feel unsafe in public spaces because they fear sexual assault and violence. This limits their freedom of movement: Fearing being threatened or harassed, many women avoid certain spaces, especially in the evening and at night. Urban planning changes to so-called fear spaces, such as parks, underpasses, parking lots along highways and airports, parking garages and underground parking garages, have led to the establishment of women's parking spaces, among other things. These are usually closer to escape routes and exits, more brightly lit or located within the recording range of cameras, and are thus intended to increase women's sense of safety and promote their mobility. Women's parking spaces are now standard in many cities.[1]

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

[Andromeda]

Maybe this song fits in the same spirit

Yes, indeed. And many others if we care to remember them. One of my personal favorites, though simple, is:

And another one that goes with the gambling theme, which is some good advice in terms of love:

So, basically, practice situational awareness and learn discernment to react appropriately. And when it comes to the ladies, when you find someone you like, don't be so afraid to lose that you're stingy about what you put in.

 

[Joe]

I don't know, some Hollywood movies do a pretty good job. And even Disney, believe it or not.

Beauty and the beast is an example. The "beast" is the "tortured" untamed man, attractive to the woman because she wants to "tame"/heal him, and she does (romance novels anyone?) In addition, there is the other guy, a handsome narcissist who doesn't end up so well.

 

[Joe]

If you read the comments section, Rollo was roasted for posting that.

And then he tries to skip out by claiming it was just "bait for dumbasses", which, even if true, in itself makes him a disingenuous idiot.

 

[Andromeda]

Beauty and the beast is an example. The "beast" is the "tortured" untamed man, attractive to the woman because she wants to "tame"/heal him, and she does (romance novels anyone?) In addition, there is the other guy, a handsome narcissist who doesn't end up so well.

In the story, although I do get the original and the Disney mixed up sometimes, Belle is not attracted to the Beast until he changes. She stays with him as an agreement to save her family. The Beast (beastly because of his narcissism), recognizes that Belle is worth sacrificing what he wants for. Once he does that, and she recognizes that he is not, in fact, an inveterate narcissist, it changes her feelings for him. I don't think it has anything to do with a woman wanting to tame or heal a man. Women who like that story want to be an inspiration worth learning or bettering for. The handsome narcissist side character, I'm pretty sure was a Disney addition. But it works too. That's the guy who cannot sacrifice anything for others and manipulates instead.

Another good one would be Sleeping Beauty. In that one, the prince is not a narcissist, he is charming, etc. But he still, after recognizing Aurora's sweetness/goodness, battles evil and dragons to get to her. Basically, he proves his worth and earns her love.

Pretty much all of it is a variation on the Knight and Lady theme. A man proving himself because he wants to earn the lady's love. Lady, singular. He is not out to attract any and all ladies. If other ladies happen to admire his heroics, that is by the way.

 

[Joe]

The point is that I read those posts as a Woman, not as a Female. If I was in the "conditions/effect of mating", would there really be so many "never"?

That's a key point, I think. Not only are the expectations/wants different during dating as opposed to long term relationships, they are different depending on the age of the person, due to hormonal drives etc. This particularly relates to women (but also men to some extent) who have the "ticking clock" of child-bearing age going on.