Is There an Ideal Way of Acting and Being in Male-Female Relationships?

[Andromeda]

Story:
The wife says to her husband: -Don't you smell something?
The husband respond: -No.
End of the story.

LOL!! It's a classic example and so true. Except that it is never the end of the story. My Grandma was famous for this kind of thing. It actually even drives some women nuts when taken to extremes. She would ask "Are you cold?" and, after a bit of back and forth, it was finally determined that she would like someone to close the window.

I do things a bit differently, I might say "It's cold in here! Can I close the window? or joke "Who's trying to kill us all with that fresh air? Is the window open for a reason?" but it amounts to something similar. Basically, trying to consider others feelings or reasons on the matter. Whereas, using a different approach, one of the fellas might just come in and close the window without saying anything. That doesn't necessarily make him inconsiderate, it just makes him more action oriented. I can always just say "Hey, I was airing the room out for a minute because of the smell of cleaning chemicals, etc." if that was the case. No big deal.

To solve the problem of misunderstanding in a couple the wife can try to express things literally and/or the men can try to understand what the wife is really asking.

Exactly.

 

[Andromeda]

women are natural selectors men need to find the way to separate themselves from other males in the group. improvement is needed in every field.

Indeed. And I would propose that, to stand out from other young men in society today, the most realistically attainable and enduringly appreciated traits to cultivate and excel at would be self-knowledge and decency. At least when talking about the men who would be inclined toward that anyway.

a lot these stuff can be explained by evolutionary psychology, and it works for most of the time for most of the people. but that's not the whole story as a person can act through spirit against primal instincts. maybe some hvm can have a harem of women, but still decides to stay monogamous with the woman he loves. maybe a woman can halt internal hypergamous instinct and stay with the sweetheart of her elementary school. that's how love operates.

still, those examples are rarer than those where people act on their selfish desires and it's useful to know 'red pill' truth about that and anything else.

I don't think so. I mean, it's true that most people are led by selfish desires to do a lot of things (more often emotional than instinctual), but I have found that examples of the good are also quite numerous. Most people are a mixed bag. Primal instincts are overemphasized.

From what I've heard so far, the 'red pill' truth is actually the 'blue pill' lie. It tries to put people back to sleep from their true nature. "Really, Cypher, EVERYONE wants to eat steak all the time at their core."

 

[Wandering Star]

LOL!! It's a classic example and so true. Except that it is never the end of the story. My Grandma was famous for this kind of thing. It actually even drives some women nuts when taken to extremes. She would ask "Are you cold?" and, after a bit of back and forth, it was finally determined that she would like someone to close the window.

I do things a bit differently, I might say "It's cold in here! Can I close the window? or joke "Who's trying to kill us all with that fresh air? Is the window open for a reason?" but it amounts to something similar. Basically, trying to consider others feelings or reasons on the matter. Whereas, using a different approach, one of the fellas might just come in and close the window without saying anything. That doesn't necessarily make him inconsiderate, it just makes him more action oriented. I can always just say "Hey, I was airing the room out for a minute because of the smell of cleaning chemicals, etc." if that was the case. No big deal.



Exactly.

And the turning point in this is in how the "suggestion" is.

If the bidding takes place or not.

When the woman or man asks a rhetorical question that cannot be answered with a no, then it is an order.

Those who live in these circumstances know that refusing to close the window or pick up the clothes or anything else immediately leads to an aggressive response. There is no debate, only the order can be fulfilled.

In that kind of relationship there is no alternative, otherwise there is no peace.

Over time, the partner of these people, when asked if it is cold here, immediately gets up to close the window.

On the contrary, there are people who will get up and ask permission to close the window because they are cold, but if someone tells them no, please leave the window open because it is hot, it is quite likely that he/she will leave the window open and sit down again.

And no change occurs in the atmosphere of peace.

I am very, very sure that many of you who read this will know exactly what I am talking about.

 

[Anamarija]

On the contrary, there are people who will get up and ask permission to close the window because they are cold, but if someone tells them no, please leave the window open because it is hot, it is quite likely that he/she will leave the window open and sit down again.

And no change occurs in the atmosphere of peace.

But then actual change could occur if someone choose to understand that this is opportunity to grow (individually and relationship). From someone who think that he doesn't have a choice to someone who will find the middle way and suggest some compromise. If other person is willing to compromise then this could be applied to other situation in relationship. The catch is, IMO, that one understand that is important to take care himself and other person needs too. And I don't think that woman or man expect or want that everything is only their choice. That's what relationship is about, to do or think about things together and find better solutions.

 

[Wandering Star]

But then actual change could occur if someone choose to understand that this is opportunity to grow (individually and relationship). From someone who think that he doesn't have a choice to someone who will find the middle way and suggest some compromise. If other person is willing to compromise then this could be applied to other situation in relationship. The catch is, IMO, that one understand that is important to take care himself and other person needs too. And I don't think that woman or man expect or want that everything is only their choice. That's what relationship is about, to do or think about things together and find better solutions.

I agree.

All are lessons and obviously this is a lesson.

 

[Yas]

I would say that the most important determinant of how much one should 'be themselves' is the company they keep. As Bluekiwi rightly points out, the more you are yourself, the more feedback you will receive. And, as Jones qualifies that, we should be careful of who gives the feedback. If you are engaging with people who's feedback you trust, and the trust is rightly placed, whether that be general peers or an intimate partner, being yourself is the best way to learn about yourself. But, with people you do not know and trust, it is usually appropriate to be more guarded.

If you are in the dating market and thinking about how to present yourself, I would say that while staying somewhat guarded, make efforts at being your best self - to the best of your knowledge. There is nothing wrong with trying to create a good impression as long as you are mostly being true to yourself and not just selling a false image to get something you want.

Perhaps a better word would be authenticity. So, instead of being 'yourself' you can be authentic. And that would be good advice for both men and women. Being authentic doesn't exclude working on being a better person, it just excludes pretending to be something else than what you are at the moment because you want to get something with that pretension. You can be authentic in that you are just a normal person working towards being better.

And I think being authentic is hard work. Maybe for some more than for others, but generally speaking, it is quite normal for both men and women to fear rejection and that's usually the reason why people pretend to be something else (even to themselves) until they realise that pretensions won't bring true connection and belonging.

Oh! I just thought of a good one. Aladdin. The Disney version.

And if we look at it from the perspective of authenticity. Aladdin pretended to be something that he wasn't to get the princess and that didn't work out that well (it worked at the beginning, maybe, but not in the 'long-term'). He had to come to terms with who he really was and become authentic, even if that meant he was 'work in progress', and that's when he really got the princess.

---------

Regarding stories that show women's perspective, I actually think that many of the romance novels do a good job showing how both characters (man and woman) change and face their own issues while working on their relationship. Some are a bit more about the man and some a bit more about the woman, but it seems to me that more often it is about both them and how they face their struggles together.

And I don't see most of the men in those stories being disrespectful to women to show their superiority and getting the women because of that. They are gentlemen. The word itself shows a clue, I suppose, "gentle" + "men" . That's another way of saying a nice, kind and honorable guy who isn't just pretending to be nice and also knows when to be strong, assertive, decisive, etc.

Regarding the devouring mother theme and men who allow women to control their fate, there are two of those romance novels I can think of that deal with something similar. One is The Arrangement, by Mary Balogh. It's part of the Survivor's Club which is as series that focuses a lot on the journey of men. Vincent, the hero in this journey, has a problem with all the women in his life kind of 'smothering him with love and care' and he needs to face them and take his place as the lord of the house. He also has other struggles to overcome, as he is a blind guy after all, but part of his major struggle was his relationship with the women in his family.

The other one is Simply Magic, also by Mary Balogh and part of the Simply series which actually focuses more on the stories of four women, yet, in this novel, Viscount Whitleaf had been a bit spoiled by his mother and sisters and he had to face his mother who was in charge of his life in order to get the lady. The lady also had to face her own issues, so it is an example of how these novels usually tell the story of both the heroine and the hero.

Something interesting about these novels is that, even thought there are some common themes or "formulas" for them, each of them is quite different because the characters are usually complex and have their own stories, backgrounds and personalities, which makes their struggles common but unique at the same time. And I think this is a reflection of what we're discussing here. While there are common things that portray human relationships in general and things the are more generally true for women and other things that are more generally true for men, there is also the 'uniqueness' of every individual that comes into play and the particular trials and tribulations that every person goes through in his or her journey.

Edit: spelling

 

[MirAd]

From what I've heard so far, the 'red pill' truth is actually the 'blue pill' lie. It tries to put people back to sleep from their true nature. "Really, Cypher, EVERYONE wants to eat steak all the time at their core."

yes, but that's actually a selling point for the red pill, at least from pov of redpillers. blue pill is considered fake and misleading, red pill are harsh truths everyone should be aware of. this is how male/female relations really are, do with it whatever you want, they say.

one might argue that red pill "truths" are half-truths or misrepresentations of how women operate, and fair enough. that leads us back to testing the hypothesis of both pills irl. partly the reason why red pill community exists as a reaction to default blue pill is because mainstream narrative doesn't work for a lot of males today. they aren't getting what are they promised by the culture and media if they behave nicely and do good things. otherwise, there wouldn't be a need for it. obviously not 100% of their claims are true, but there's high enough concentration of truth in red pill to at least think about what they have to say.

imo, majority of people are like cypher in a way that they prefer comfortable lies to harsh, naked truths. that's why blue pill thinking is default one supported by media, government and corporations. it keeps the illusion going.

 

[Windmill knight]

Also there is The Princess Bride. The man, a mere farmhand, goes through trials and tribulations to get the princess, and she slowly comes to realize that not only does he love her, but she loves him.

I can think of a few others. Didn't Jack with the magic beans start being poor and end up with a princess as well? Also, Puss in Boots, the original fairy tale (not the modern animated movies versions). As I remember it, the youngest son of a miller inherits only the cat, while his brothers inherit the land and everything else. But the cat turns out to be super smart, and by using his wits and dressing up in boots and a hat, he hooks up the young man with a princess after a few adventures and all ends well of course. Just as a dog sometimes symbolizes the instincts of his owner, in this case the cat is his intelligence, and the moral of the story is to not underestimate a seemingly small gift we inherited.

Speaking of stories and male authenticity, Yas recently reminded us of that hilarious movie 'Bedazzled', in which a guy gets 7 wishes from the devil in exchange for his soul. He wants to get a certain girl, so every wish is about his misguided attempts to become an attractive man. He goes from being a rich guy (who turns out to be a drug lord) to a famous intellectual, to the most sensitive man in the world, to a basketball star, and of course each time it all ends in disaster. And only in the end, when he gives up all that and settles for himself and wishing the girl happiness on her own, he breaks the contract with the devil and finds someone who is a real match for him. Until Yas mentioned it, I hadn't really appreciated the depth of the wisdom to be found in such a pop-corn movie. :)

 

[Debra]

I’d like to share a book I’ve recommended, and gifted a few times.

The author, Dr. Micki Pistorius, gained her experience and knowledge as a forensic psychologist in South Africa.

Her autobiographical book “Catch me a Killer” has gained a lot of praise, in psychology circles, yet, the book I’m most impressed with, and highly recommend, “Heroes, A psychological look into men’s perceptions on relationships” hasn’t been seen for the amazing, down to earth and compassionate knowledge and views she brings forward.

Of course timing is everything, and it was released in 2019, just as the “general law” was strongly bearing down on the world, opposing masculine and feminine differences, erasing “real” genders, and criminally charging opposition, so, there is that.
And, yes, her nephew IS the Oscar Pistorius, jailed for shooting his wife.
Doing a search on their surname brings several interviews and interesting insights.

Here’s an excerpt from what is written on the amazon page, regarding her book, “Heroes”:

“[…]Men and women think differently.
Not only do men think differently about relationships than women, they think differently than women think men think.
Think about that.
I am also not writing this book to teach women how to catch men.
If a woman tries to catch a man, she has already lost him.
If women want to adapt their behaviour and get in touch with their own femininity, which may just happen to appeal to the heroes out there, then so be it.
If women prefer to be pugnacious and hell-bent on cutting men down to size, it is their choice.
Men don’t find it very appealing.
If men read this book and feel the need to up their game and man-up: good, because the human race needs heroes.”

In gathering info for this post, I also found this wonderfully informative and short interview with her.

 

[Yas]

Thinking about the word ‘gentleman’ I remembered there were a few websites that don’t seem to follow the “red pill” philosophy, yet, give advice on how to be manly while focusing more on the idea of being a gentleman.

Here’s one of those:

10 Characteristic of a Gentleman - A Modern Guide to Being A Gentleman

Are you wondering what signs or characterisitcs make a gentleman? These 10 traits are absolutely essential for ancient and modern gentlemen alike.

manlyandmodern.com

Now, I haven’t read the other articles on that website, so I can’t vouch for it, but I thought the following article was a good example or “manly advice” without it being anything like what the “red-pillers” advice. I put it here for the consideration of the gentlemen who are here:
(Meaning, I may be completely off but I thought it was an overall good article)

10 Characteristic of a Gentleman – A Modern Guide to Being A Gentleman

While it’s unfortunately getting increasingly rare to hear the term ‘gentleman’ these days, I honestly think that’s just because the word is falling out of fashion a bit and not because there’s a dire lack of gentlemen out there.

There are numerous characteristics of a gentleman that have withstood the test of time. From the Knights of the Round Table to any of the suave James Bond films, society has always revered and respected the concept of a gentleman.

While the term is not as popular today as in the past, that doesn’t mean we live in a world without men who adhere to the tried and true gentleman figure.

If you aspire to be a gentleman or are wondering if you’re on the right path, here are some of the main characteristics of a gentlemanly characteristics to know.

But first…a bit of a history lesson.

The Origin of The Word ‘Gentleman.’

To understand what makes up a gentleman, it’s important to know where this word even comes from.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, in English history, the term gentleman referred to an individual who was entitled to bear arms but was not a nobleman. This was typically an upstanding man from a good family but not royalty or nobility.

By the Middle Ages, the term gentleman began to slowly blend with the concept of nobility as records show landowners denoting themselves as being knights, esquires, and gentlemen.

By the 16th century however, the term gentry was used to denote a distinct and upper social class who had the right to bear arms.

This is generally how the term was used for most of English history, and it wasn’t until roughly the Victorian era that the term lost some of its militaristic connotations and reverted to simply reflect a position of rank in society.

Over time, the word gentleman began to reflect a man’s occupation in that he was not a general laborer or involved in retail trade.

However, after both World Wars diminished this view (for very few men were spared from fighting or factory work, and all men became equal for a time), the term gentleman morphed into a more modern version of what we now consider to be ‘gentlemanly.’

So, that’s the origin of the word gentleman in a nutshell!

But, what are the characteristics of a gentleman and how can you become one in the modern world?


The Main Characteristics Every Gentleman Possesses

It doesn’t matter if you’re examining a knight from the Middle Ages or a man of the Victorian era; all gentleman have displayed the following characteristics throughout history.

1. Chivalrous

Chivalry is undoubtedly one of the hallmark gentlemanly characteristics. This is evident from historical accounts of knights and the importance of chivalry, and it’s one of the foundations that makes a gentleman.

Chivalry has several definitions, one of which is “gallant or distinguished gentlemen.” So there, this trait is even built into the term!

Being chivalrous means have valor, honor, and protecting the weak. It was a foundation of knighthood, and this manly tradition is one of the core aspects of traits that make a gentleman.

As with many traits, being brave doesn’t mean being reckless, having honor doesn’t mean that you just follow rules without being thoughtful about them, protecting the weak doesn’t mean condoning weakness of character. But chivalry also portrays the image of strength and being able to show aggressiveness/assertiveness when needed (like when you are protecting children and women or standing up for something important).

2. Generous

There are multiple ways to be generous, and a gentleman follows all of these.

Gentlemen are willing to give up their time to help others. They are also willing to lend their strength to those in need, their resources to the helpless, and their wisdom to anyone seeking guidance.

There is no cookie-cutter threshold or solution to what generosity means to a person. However, one thing gentlemen have in common is that they strive to give back to others.

Just a note on this: In the video shared by Laura, they mention how generosity was a trait mentioned by women, yet, women also said that there was a limit to how generous men should be. For example, generosity doesn’t mean putting your family in risk because you give everything you have to other people, or being too agreeable that you can’t say no to other people when a no is needed.

So, I’m just mentioning that to any trait, there are nuances.

3. Honorable

Again, much of the origin of the term gentleman is derived from Medieval history and the concept of Knighthood.

Knights swore to uphold the honor of their house, their sigil, their family, and their king.

To flee the field of battle or to turn your back on others during their hour of need brought dishonor on your entire family and name, and was often viewed as being a crime worse than death itself.

Actually, this entire concept is really older than Knighthood if you look back to societies like ancient Sparta. Spartan mothers had a heartwarming saying to their sons before battle that went something like “come back with your shield – or on it” according to Plutarch.

Gentlemen have honor. They do what they say and they act in a manner that upholds what they stand for. It’s as simple as that.

So again, there are nuances. It doesn’t mean “be reckless and go and die for honor at the first opportunity”, sometimes, knowing which battles to fight is the honorable thing to do.

4. Confidence…Not Arrogance

As the saying goes, “the loudest person in a room often has the least to say.”

Gentlemen have confidence. But, they are never cocky.

The modern gentleman knows how to hold themselves in a conversation, to get their point across, and how to debate. However, a trait that immediately disqualifies one from being a gentleman is to be rash, cocky, or arrogant.

Yes, being confident doesn’t need to be equated with being arrogant and disrespectful, which is some of what the menosphere proposes.

5. Polite

Politeness is sometimes mistaken for weakness or a lack of masculinity these days, but it’s actually another foundational gentlemanly characteristic.

Gentlemen are polite to everyone around them. The elderly, coworkers, love interests, and even rivals are all given their due and not looked down upon as lesser.

And, of course, gentlemen are especially polite to women. This includes behaviors such as holding open a door or offering to scrape the car of ice during the wintertime, to more social norms like not ‘kissing and telling’ or spreading secrets.

Important: polite to everyone, not only the woman they are after. That is, just be kind to people in general, unless there’s a real reason for not being so. So yes, when it is needed, being polite isn't the priority, but one can strive to be polite in general, or just a considerate person.

6. Suave

Again, this gentlemanly trait has always been a feature throughout history.

Look at stories of knights like Sir Lancelot, rushing to the aid of those in need at the last minute, or of modern James Bond films…with a suave Daniel Craig keeping his cool under pressure.

Gentlemen are cool, calm, collected, and suave!

Just do your best to keep your head cool when things get heated, which is also good advice for women.

And let me say something more about that last addition. In the romance novels, we see that women are also expected to be collected and composed, not all over the place, even though it is generally perceived that they are more emotional. I think that’s good advice for us ladies. We can be more emotional, yet, we can also learn to be composed, collected, respectful, polite, and basically manage our emotions.

7. Ambitious

A man used to technically be considered a gentleman if he owned land or had the right to bear arms back in Medieval times.

However, the term has always had somewhat of a connotation or expectation of greatness. This is still true for the modern gentleman.

A gentleman doesn’t sit and let the day go to waste. He is active, be it helping others or working towards his own goals.

Again, he is courteous and not arrogant, but a gentleman definitely doesn’t sit on his sofa all day watching TV, accomplishing nothing.

I liked how he describes what healthy ambition means. It doesn’t mean being greedy and wanting power, it means not being couch-potato and doing something meaningful with your life. And what’s meaningful depends a lot on each person too.

8. Truthful

This ties back into the concept of being honorable. Being truthful, even in the face of adversity or punishment, is a critical component of being a gentleman.

A gentleman does not lie, cheat, or steal.

There is never a justification for any of these behaviors, even if it is tempting. It doesn’t matter if it’s in business or in a relationship, a gentleman is always truthful.

As we have discussed in many other threads, being honest to everyone and in all situations can be a weakness too, so here there’s that nuance to be considered. Sometimes you have to deceive in order to protect your family, friends, etc…

9. Kind

At his core, a gentleman must be kind.

This gentlemanly trait is sometimes overlooked, but it is perhaps one of the most immediately noticeable characteristics of a gentleman.

How does a man treat their significant other? How does a man treat his dog? How does a man treat the people around him even when he is tired or having an off day?

If it is with kindness, even in the face of personal difficulties, this is a surefire sign of a gentleman.

10. Skillful (And Well-Rounded)

A gentleman is skillful, but not just in a single avenue.

In many senses, a gentleman is like a Renaissance Man, and possesses a wide range of interests and skills in fitness, the arts, language, and business.

A gentleman knows several skills, such as:

• How to dress sharply.
• How to orate. In Ancient Greece, skilled orators were actually revered and highly respected.
• How to shake a hand, look someone in the eyes, etc.
• How to cook.
• How to be punctual. This characteristic is often forgotten but it is absolutely critical!
• How to handle their business (finances, housekeeping, their vehicle, etc.)
• How to provide for people the care about.

In addition to this, the modern gentleman is also eager to learn new skills and maintains an open mind when it comes to learning.

Here, I would say that what’s important is that you are a person who is willing to learn new skills and be useful to yourself and other people.

Final Thoughts

The term ‘gentleman’ might not be used as much as it used to be these days. However, there’s no denying that this term has a rich history and has always been used to denote a man of class, integrity, and worth.

These characteristics of a gentleman are solid traits that young and old men alike should strive for.

At the end of the day, you don’t need to be a millionaire, have the body of a Greek God, or dress like James Bond to be considered a gentleman.

Truly, all you need to do is lead an honest, kind, and chivalrous life to be a gentleman. Have ambition, protect those who are weaker than you, and always be generous. Remove arrogance and temptation from your life, and start each day striving to be better than you were when you went to sleep.

Thanks so much for reading!

I remember there was this other website too: The art of manliness

I haven’t been there much so I don’t know what they say, but maybe it’s worth checking it out.

Overall, I think that many of the traits presented in the article can be positive for women too, but they would just manifest a bit differently in women. So again, it's just general advice on how to be a good person leaning more towards the masculine side of being a good person.

 

[Jimmy Ssaz]

Perhaps a better word would be authenticity. So, instead of being 'yourself' you can be authentic. And that would be good advice for both men and women. Being authentic doesn't exclude working on being a better person, it just excludes pretending to be something else than what you are at the moment because you want to get something with that pretension. You can be authentic in that you are just a normal person working towards being better.

And I think being authentic is hard work. Maybe for some more than for others, but generally speaking, it is quite normal for both men and women to fear rejection and that's usually the reason why people pretend to be something else (even to themselves) until they realise that pretensions won't bring true connection and belonging.



And if we look at it from the perspective of authenticity. Aladdin pretended to be something that he wasn't to get the princess and that didn't work out that well (it worked at the beginning, maybe, but not in the 'long-term'). He had to come to terms with who he really was and become authentic, even if that meant he was 'work in progress', and that's when he really got the princess.

---------

Regarding stories that show women's perspective, I actually think that many of the romance novels do a good job showing how both characters (man and woman) change and face their own issues while working on their relationship. Some are a bit more about the man and some a bit more about the woman, but it seems to me that more often it is about both them and how they face their struggles together.

And I don't see most of the men in those stories being disrespectful to women to show their superiority and getting the women because of that. They are gentlemen. The word itself shows a clue, I suppose, "gentle" + "men" . That's another way of saying a nice, kind and honorable guy who isn't just pretending to be nice and also knows when to be strong, assertive, decisive, etc.

Regarding the devouring mother theme and men who allow women to control their fate, there are two of those romance novels I can think of that deal with something similar. One is The Arrangement, by Mary Balogh. It's part of the Survivor's Club which is as series that focuses a lot on the journey of men. Vincent, the hero in this journey, has a problem with all the women in his life kind of 'smothering him with love and care' and he needs to face them and take his place as the lord of the house. He also has other struggles to overcome, as he is a blind guy after all, but part of his major struggle was his relationship with the women in his family.

The other one is Simply Magic, also by Mary Balogh and part of the Simply series which actually focuses more on the stories of four women, yet, in this novel, Viscount Whitleaf had been a bit spoiled by his mother and sisters and he had to face his mother who was in charge of his life in order to get the lady. The lady also had to face her own issues, so it is an example of how these novels usually tell the story of both the heroine and the hero.

Something interesting about these novels is that, even thought there are some common themes or "formulas" for them, each of them is quite different because the characters are usually complex and have their own stories, backgrounds and personalities, which makes their struggles common but unique at the same time. And I think this is a reflection of what we're discussing here. While there are common things that portray human relationships in general and things the are more generally true for women and other things that are more generally true for men, there is also the 'uniqueness' of every individual that comes into play and the particular trials and tribulations that every person goes through in his or her journey.

Edit: spelling

Yas F. To be a gentleman is to be respectful, honest, ethical etc...a person who knows how to treat other people...For example not only if Queen Cassiopeia and her daughter Princess Andromeda come, a gentleman will act like that with all the people, he will be polite and will say thank you not only kind to her majesty Cassiopeia or her daughter Princess Andromeda but with all the inhabitants of the shire.
To be a gentleman is to be of good and decent manners.

 

[luc]

Primal instincts are overemphasized.

From what I've heard so far, the 'red pill' truth is actually the 'blue pill' lie. It tries to put people back to sleep from their true nature. "Really, Cypher, EVERYONE wants to eat steak all the time at their core."

Reminds me of what I wrote in the Darwimism thread about some of the thinking it spawned - perhaps the thread is worth revisiting, and also David Stove's "Darwinian Fairytales", which is a brilliant critique of evolutionary psychology?

Yes, and what I hate about that is that it entices you with this "you won't gonna like it, but let's look what's REALLY going on beneath the surface!" promise. And then you think you are finally getting to the real truth, even though you don't like it, which simulates a feeling that this must be it, and even that you have "earned" it by giving up views that are dear to you. And then you end up buying a whole pathological package, complete with an abhorrent view of the world and humanity that defies common sense and experience. I know from my own history of wrestling with these things at some points in my life how I completely started doubting my own view of the world, common sense etc. It's freaking gas-lighting!

 

[Alejo]

But something in each of us recognized something in the other and somehow, over the past decade, that something has won out. It grew and guided us through the oftentimes painful process of sweeping out the minefield of our combined childhood trauma. Each of us turned out to be exactly what the other needed. And when I asked her to describe all the traits that, in her opinion, caused her to be attracted to me when we met, they were all traits I had learned to fake to be more attractive to women, the faking of which had simply become at habit by the time we met.

And that's a description of growth that may be aided by someone else, I daresay that some of it was growth as a natural process of maturation, but the rest must have been conscious effort.

It reminded me of something I heard once, a speaker talking about relationships made the case that "we all look for people who will hurt us in familiar ways" and at the time I felt that such an idea was brilliant, but later on I realized that it was incomplete, it was too passive.

We all look for someone that will hurt us in familiar ways... by default... and that is key, if some work has been done, then we can look for someone different. But also, if we look for someone like that, then that someone might see it in us as well, someone who will hurt them in familiar ways.

Which really means, we all look for someone who will have the capacity and opportunity to NOT hurt us in familiar ways, and that represents an opportunity for both us and them to break those cycles, I think that is partially the reason why some of us are attracted to people who "emit" certain signals with their behavior. We do look for familiar wounds, so to speak, but I don't think it's a morbid behavior, not entirely at least, I think it's also an opportunity for both parties to break the cycles they've been a part of, together.

Because, there's a lot of talk about the people we choose, and how we choose them, and why and all the trauma and programs and attachments, which is absolutely worth exploring, essential for progress even. But on the other hand, there's why and how we ourselves are chosen in a given interaction. We remember the wounds we carry, and how could we forget? But there's also the wounds we cause, and I think both of those wounds are intimately related.

So, in your case, as with many others, you and her could have been the person that reopened familiar wounds, but chose not to and in turn cleared your history by choosing otherwise, and also, taught her something she probably thought (or hoped) was possible but for which she really had no evidence.

And that is growth IMO, changing one's world view and having such a paradigm shift, it can really change a person's relationship with the universe at large.

 

[Andromeda]

And the turning point in this is in how the "suggestion" is.

Good point. How a suggestion is given or taken has much to do with individual programming/wounding, some of which involves control issues and over-sensitivity. That's for most people. For some others, it is nothing but power plays and cannot be anything else.

Because of our own programming/wounding, it can often be difficult to tell the difference between someone who is just playing dominance games and who is acting from programming/wounding themselves. But it is all important to learn how to, because how you should treat one or the other in interpersonal relationships can be quite different.

A couple of good books about manipulation tactics (if I remember them correctly!) are:

In Sheep's Clothing by George Simon
The Nasty series by Jay Carter (Nasty People, Nasty Women, Nasty Bosses, etc.)

Perhaps a better word would be authenticity. So, instead of being 'yourself' you can be authentic. And that would be good advice for both men and women. Being authentic doesn't exclude working on being a better person, it just excludes pretending to be something else than what you are at the moment because you want to get something with that pretension. You can be authentic in that you are just a normal person working towards being better.

Very good point. I would also add that, especially for people who are looking for a long term partner, being as authentic as possible in the beginning is very important.

Of course it's normal (and good!) to want to impress on the first dates, but if you don't let yourselves show through before sealing any deals, you will not have a very good idea of long term compatibility.

I'm pretty sure that this failure of being able to properly assess compatibility has something to do with the high number of divorce rates.

Regarding stories that show women's perspective, I actually think that many of the romance novels do a good job showing how both characters (man and woman) change and face their own issues while working on their relationship. Some are a bit more about the man and some a bit more about the woman, but it seems to me that more often it is about both them and how they face their struggles together.

And I don't see most of the men in those stories being disrespectful to women to show their superiority and getting the women because of that. They are gentlemen. The word itself shows a clue, I suppose, "gentle" + "men" . That's another way of saying a nice, kind and honorable guy who isn't just pretending to be nice and also knows when to be strong, assertive, decisive, etc.

Definitely. Incidentally, one of my favorite characters from the romance novels I've read so far is called 'the quiet gentleman'. And he wasn't a sissy at all.

Something interesting about these novels is that, even thought there are some common themes or "formulas" for them, each of them is quite different because the characters are usually complex and have their own stories, backgrounds and personalities, which makes their struggles common but unique at the same time. And I think this is a reflection of what we're discussing here. While there are common things that portray human relationships in general and things the are more generally true for women and other things that are more generally true for men, there is also the 'uniqueness' of every individual that comes into play and the particular trials and tribulations that every person goes through in his or her journey.

Yeah. I think the romance novels are really the best go-to for a well rounded view of relationship dynamics. Although, if there are some guys out there having trouble diving in to the romance reading because they have trouble learning in that style, there are other options. Movies can be good for the more visually oriented, or for those who need some adventure context. But there is a lot of trash out there in that category too, so viewer discretion would be advised.

because mainstream narrative doesn't work for a lot of males today.

As it shouldn't. That doesn't necessarily make its opposite true. Something to watch out for is controlled opposition.

they aren't getting what are they promised by the culture and media if they behave nicely and do good things.

I think there is a lot to this statement. First of all, a lot of media and 'culture' promise crap. What are you being promised? Have you seen The Century of the Self? If not, I would recommend it. I think there is definitely some social engineering that's been going on for a long time, tapping into people's narcissistic tendencies and amplifying them. Making 'Happiness' rather than 'Goodness' a main goal.

Second of all, are most of those people who have been 'behaving nicely and doing good things' actually behaving nicely and doing good things? I would hazard to guess that they are not, at least to any great extent, because genuine niceness and goodness would not include deciding to throw a fit when you don't get what you want. That is childish behavior. Talk about infantilizing people!

I can think of a few others. Didn't Jack with the magic beans start being poor and end up with a princess as well? Also, Puss in Boots, the original fairy tale (not the modern animated movies versions). As I remember it, the youngest son of a miller inherits only the cat, while his brothers inherit the land and everything else. But the cat turns out to be super smart, and by using his wits and dressing up in boots and a hat, he hooks up the young man with a princess after a few adventures and all ends well of course. Just as a dog sometimes symbolizes the instincts of his owner, in this case the cat is his intelligence, and the moral of the story is to not underestimate a seemingly small gift we inherited.

Speaking of stories and male authenticity, Yas recently reminded us of that hilarious movie 'Bedazzled', in which a guy gets 7 wishes from the devil in exchange for his soul. He wants to get a certain girl, so every wish is about his misguided attempts to become an attractive man. He goes from being a rich guy (who turns out to be a drug lord) to a famous intellectual, to the most sensitive man in the world, to a basketball star, and of course each time it all ends in disaster. And only in the end, when he gives up all that and settles for himself and wishing the girl happiness on her own, he breaks the contract with the devil and finds someone who is a real match for him. Until Yas mentioned it, I hadn't really appreciated the depth of the wisdom to be found in such a pop-corn movie. :)

I haven't seen that one but it sounds good! Another one I thought of would be Walk the Line. It's a true story, well dramatized, and shows how a young man and woman go through getting their acts together to become good for each other.

 

[Cosmos]

Another one I thought of would be Walk the Line. It's a true story, well dramatized, and shows how a young man and woman go through getting their acts together to become good for each other.

Yes! I really like that movie! And that goes for movies in general with similar themes. I like such types of movies where people improve through getting their acts together through a relationship setting. And in this case it is based on a true story of Johnny Cash and his wife. And of course I just love the music he and his wife made as well! A touching, inspiring and lovely story.