Isn't suffering still an attachment to something

Dingo said:
Hi Los, I don't think that question was directed to me, and I have not the foggiest as to what it means
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you're right. it was directed to someone else - sorry. Laura was talking about fighting Candida, which is a harmful bacteria found in most people, and which causes a long list of ailments. If you check out the diet forum you'll find a couple of useful threads on the topic. I've been on the anti-candida diet and taking the recommended supplements for about a month and have found a number of benefits. Two major achievements have been that my dysthymia (constant low level depression) has lifted, and my body aches, particularly lower back pain, have disappeared.
 
Hi Los,
I'll check into that., although I am curious. If you suffer from low level depression and you take something that alleviates it, does this not prevent you from uncovering the reason for the depression? I am not one for taking pills of any kind as I have always thought that pains and depressions etc are the result of conflicts at the sub conscious level. This is why I started this whole thread to see if I could uncover what is going on in me. But, it is still something that I would like to explore as to what you call Candida...

Cheers
Dean
 
Dingo said:
Hi Los,
I'll check into that., although I am curious. If you suffer from low level depression and you take something that alleviates it, does this not prevent you from uncovering the reason for the depression? I am not one for taking pills of any kind as I have always thought that pains and depressions etc are the result of conflicts at the sub conscious level.
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I wouldn't doubt that the subconscious is at work trying to tell us something when depression occurs. Just as it can alert us of dysfunction in the external environment, so too with the inner, and I would think that includes how we treat our physical body. Basic self-care seems to hash out a number of unhealthy programs, and seems to be a good starting place for real Work to begin. Gurdjieff makes an important distinction between unnecessary suffering (a.k.a. mechanical suffering) and voluntary suffering (a.k.a. conscious suffering). Having our bodies loaded to the max with various toxins, parasites and nasty bacterias seems to maintain and prolong much mechanical suffering. I think getting on the diets recommend in the diet and health forum (along with doing research to suit the diet to your own body) can also get Work going with voluntary suffering on a physical level in terms of working against cravings and unhealthy eating habits. I've also found that all the dietary cooking, cleaning, and acknowledging what is healthy for my body is a way of accessing and providing love for my denied self. This in turn seems to create a space for conscious suffering on a higher level. It's no wonder why Gurdjieff states the need to take care of ones own household if there is to be progression in the Work.

I think taking supplements is different than taking pills. From what I understand, pills manipulate our chemistry into performing a certain way - creating a 'mask of health'; whereas supplements work with our body's normal processes to reach real health. This isn't to say pills are always bad. It depends on the context.
 
Hi Los,
Great answer!
I bought an ebook by Loren Howe called the Real Story of Money, Health and Religion. Here is a part relating to toxins and fasting

Another healthy concept related to diet is fasting. Few topics seem to
evoke such strong emotions as the discussion of fasting does. Eating
French fries and soda for an entire day will rarely raise as much
shock and concern as eating nothing. Despite its current lack of
favor, fasting has been encouraged by many societies and most
major religions throughout history. Historically, people often
conducted at least one short fast per year in the winter or spring.
Current medical studies are beginning to rediscover the benefits of
fasting for health and longevity. Although modern studies have not
focused on nervous system health, this is the area traditionally
considered to benefit most from fasting. Fasting was historically
believed to aid mental clarity and calm the emotions.
During a fast, your body is able to re-direct its energy away from
digestion toward repair functions. Enzyme potential that was once
needed to break down heavy food can instead be redirected to
dissolve toxins and cleanse waste from the body. Unfortunately, this
release of toxins often creates effects such as headache or nausea
just as the toxins of a hangover or mild food poisoning do. The best
way to relieve these symptoms is by drinking water, resting, or
ending the fast if the initial release of toxins is too uncomfortable.
Traditional wisdom recommends fasting only when you are able to
rest and drink plenty of water. The first food eaten afterward should
be something light and preferably raw such as fruit or vegetables.
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Kind of reminds me of a story I read where a journalist visited a remote village in the Amazon. Having shared a mushroom drink with them, he said he hallucinated and vomited huge amounts of black puss for two days. After wards he felt amazing and this amazing feeling lasted for a few months after returning home. He guessed the mushrooms removed all the built up toxins.
 
I have to be honest with you Los, I have no idea how you came to know which supplements and what diet to commence.

I have just read the first few pages of http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9796.0 and I am just overwhelmed

Which supplements, when to take them, what foods, i.e. at one point all vegetables except mushrooms, then no corn, then no carrots. Also, no yoghurt, then yogurt is ok.

Wow, one thing I do know which is obvious, no sugars!!!

Thanks
Dean
 
Dingo I recommend reading the books 'Detoxify or die' and 'The Fat resistance Diet'.

Also try the search function on those titles on this forum :)

There's also numerous threads on fasting.

Yes, it's a jungle, but luckily this forum is packed with valuable information.

In the end you have to decide what works for you though.
 
Dingo said:
I have to be honest with you Los, I have no idea how you came to know which supplements and what diet to commence.

I have just read the first few pages of http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9796.0 and I am just overwhelmed

Which supplements, when to take them, what foods, i.e. at one point all vegetables except mushrooms, then no corn, then no carrots. Also, no yoghurt, then yogurt is ok.

Wow, one thing I do know which is obvious, no sugars!!!
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Have a look at that thread:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11672.0

They are very good quizzes which could be very helpful for you. And I will suggest to you to read the book "The Ultramind solution".
 
Meanwhile, back on the farm......

I wanted to ask something..
'How do you know when you are simply suppressing emotions?' There is a lot of things happening on the personal family front that I am having to deal with and I'm concerned I am not doing the work properly and are simply suppressing the emotions.

For example, I can observe the feeling and the emotion taking place, and I can also picture the trigger, i.e. the moment that is causing the anger, but all I feel I am doing is quieting everything down. Is this suppression,, or am I doing the right thing? Should I keep digging to find out 'why' this trigger makes me angry? Part of me knows that with all the people on this forum, that a lot of you would not be doing this if you were simply suppressing emotions, as we all know this is dangerous, but is there the danger that one is suppressing without realizing it?

I am also around the part in ISOTM where G talks of prayer, and the breaking down of the actual words (pg310) and the question that came to me immediately, as in what would I ask in prayer, and it was 'What Do I Want?'

I decided to look at each word.

What - When thinking of the word 'what' I saw that there were three things that what could describe; feelings or emotions, knowledge or wisdom, physical manifestations of some sort

Do - Thinking of Do, I immediately saw that the word Do is a 'doing' word, and must refer to the present or the future and can not refer to the past, otherwise it would be DID. Maybe I should be substituting the word Do for Be? I don't know yet

I - Well, I had help with this because of the explanation G gave, however, when I did this exercise, I was sitting out the back and so didn't have the book initially to refer to, it was only after I re-read it...but the initial thoughts I had on 'I' was that I am either referring to the conscious I, or the mechanical I, and if I am referring to the mechanical I, it could be any number of many 'I''s which would be always changing. It wasn't until I re-read the page, that G referred to the real I being the master of the mechanical I's and not the other way around.

Want - initially I could not expand on this. All I could muster was other variations of 'want' such as 'desire', 'need', 'wish', and although I know these have slightly different meanings, this was all I could get my head around. But can't they all be personality traits

Once again, it wasn't until re-reading what G said, that I came to the conclusion that there can be no 'what' or 'want' unless they are related to the mechanical 'I''s. In other words, am I seeking a particular feeling? This can only be a personality trait. Can I be seeking a knowledge? Ok, maybe but once again it is a personality trait? Can I be seeking physical manifestations? Definitely a personality trait.

In other words, I can not know what I want, the answer can not exist until such time as I 'know' (neither 'I' or 'know' being from the personality) from some deeper place. Therefore the only conclusion I can draw from all of this, is that the only want that doesn't come from the personality, is to be master of the personality, rather than slave to it!

This would then enable me to ask the question as 'What Be I Want'

I really hope that I can make progress because I don't want to be a drain on others on this forum. At some point seeking help all the time proves that one is not moving in the correct direction
 
Dingo said:
Should I keep digging to find out 'why' this trigger makes me angry?
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In a word - yes. The idea is to gradually reduce responding in a purely mechanical fashion to what is going on around you -- so that you can begin to objectively (rather than subjectively) SEE what is going on around you. It is not the emotion itself, but the mechanical nature of it, that is the problem.

If you do not know WHY you respond in a certain way, then it is a mechanical, unconscious response that you have no control over. If you delve deeper and discover, for example, that when your wife says certain things to you, she is reminding you of some negative aspects of your relationship with your mother, and thus triggers certain unexamined, unexpressed, and unresolved feelings towards your mother, then you can begin to "break the trance", so to speak. With this new-found knowledge, you might be able to stop yourself in the midst of your anger with the conscious realization, "Hey, my wife is not my mother, and my feelings of anger are misdirected and/or not appropriate to the situation". Instead of helplessly "reacting" in a mechanical fashion, in an unconscious way that is beyond your control, you now have the necessary knowledge/insight to consciously CHOOSE to respond in a different fashion.

It may take take a lot of time, and much self-observation, before you discover the "trigger" for your mechanical behaviour, and what is behind that "trigger" and the emotions it taps into. So don't expect changes to occur over night. But the more you endeavour to objectively observe yourself and your own behaviour, the more you will learn about yourself....
 
Thank you Pepperfritz.

I am glad that at least I am on the right track.

With reference to my wife and mother, were using that as an example to illustrate? I don't think I have mentioned either on this forum so I am assuming it was just that

Many thanks again
 
Some recent events have opened my eyes quite a bit more. However I need to explain a little history first. I think this is important because I found something.

My wife (of 6 years), lost her brother to suicide (in 2001, he had Crohns disease), and her Dad (he was an alcoholic and it is yet to be proven one way or the other if he too committed suicide), around 2 years ago.

All of the time I have known her has been an obvious struggle for her. She has sought help but in the end, her only savior is to push it away.

A few weeks ago she met a man online, who too has lost his Dad and brother to suicide. What's more, both my wife's brother, and the man's brother and Dad were all named David. The time of the man's brother's suicide, was also my wife's brothers birthday.

I always feared that she would meet someone like this as it meant that she would not have moved on and that I am unable to help her. This time has come and it has opened some serious emotions in me. I think it is happening for a reason.

The other day, she referred to him as 'my Cam', and this floored me. Unable to say anything at the time, I simply went away and tried to deal with it. It wasn't until I read a part of the chats they were having that I then discovered that she has a lot of anger towards people making promises they couldn't keep of 'being there', especially at her Dad's funeral. BTW, She is not hiding anything and she has offered me several times to read through their chats, but I declined.

Anyway, reading this part I had to talk to her, and asked her if I was part of that group that she was angry at, and she assured me that no I wasn't. We had a good chat and I did tell her that her calling him 'my Cam', did floor me a bit. I felt that she had strong feelings for him, but she told me that she feels for him, she can feel his pain.

A day or two later, she was chatting with him again and this is when it really hit. Cameron (that is his name), is quite angry, and is struggling, you can see that by his words, but what I noticed was the sorts of reply's my wife was giving him and it was here that I realized how miserable she really is. She is doing things for the purpose of pushing it all away, such as walking, playing netball etc.

I just broke down and cried, and I couldn't stop for at least 15 minutes. At first before I broke down, my initial reaction was that here were two people that were feeding off each others negativity but I then lost it. She has been crying for help for such a long time, and no one is able to help her, the least of which is me.

I want to be able to help her, and give her what she needs and I am realizing that the only way I can do this, is if I am ridding myself of a lot of the self absorbed ways in which I live.

My cry made me think intensely of the traits I have of jealousy, fear of losing her, the unwanted emotions, how it affects me, yet at the same time, I felt empathy that I can not remember feeling ever before. When I spoke to her after, I was immediately struck by how easy it is to be talking about 'I' even in relation to how 'I' was not aware of her misery, how 'I' should be stronger for her, how 'I' was a fool to not hear her cry's for help. I simply apologized and held her and said nothing.

This episode had made me see the empathy I do have that has been sorely lacking, yet for my youngest child David, and my daughter Tahlie, who seems to get a lot of my attention. (Incidentally, both these children were born at times when I didn't want another child. I put two and two together and think that my favoritism towards them may be from having those feelings during the pregnancy.)

I have a serious issue with jealousy. I hate having this with a passion, and I can not think why I have it. My first relationship (which bore my first two children) was not a loving relationship at all, yet jealousy rained supreme.

In my current marriage, my jealousy was a lot worse early on. My wife would look at other men (and I mean intensely) and it would send my flying inside, while I would try to remain calm on the outside. I put up with this for almost two years until one day I was in the supermarket with her and she looked at a man and I looked at him, trying to see what she saw, and then it clicked I asked her' does that man somehow remind you of your brother', and she said yes. For some time she had always expected (or hoping) that she would see him again.

I am trying to work out where this jealousy is coming from. I am hoping that I will find out why as I can see that I should have no reason to be this way, especially towards my wife who is constantly reminding me of how much she loves me. It hurts that I am hurting her.
 
Two weeks ago my marriage ended. I did not see it coming. All I have said and written in this forum now seems insignificant. For all the attempts to understand myself better and those around me, my world has been turned upside down. Some people may see this as a blessing, and who knows, maybe there will be a light at the end of my tunnel, but at this present time I have hit the lowest low of my entire life. I have never felt pain on this scale before. I have never felt guilt towards myself and recounted all the past events where I could have made a different choice.

There is one positive that has come out of this. I reunited with my brother for the first time in a long time, and probably had the best 3 hours of my life with him a few days after my wife and I split. It just so happens that my brother has spent considerable time studying dream interpretations, religion (when I asked him if he was a devout christian he said 'we are searching' - meaning him and his girlfriend) and other subjects of conversation which we seem to hit it off with were things like New World Order, Illuminati, etc. He spoke to me about something I had not heard before, about a planet called Nibius which is apparently going to be between us and the Sun in 2012 and create havoc. I spoke to him about the Cassiopaeans and many of the things they discussed with Laura and he was fascinated.

At the time I reunited with my brother, he told me of a dream where he knew a family member was having suicidal thoughts. He instantly knew it was me because the next day I turned up at his house. He saved me.

I know others here have struggled with marriage breakups, and ones like mine where you did not see it coming. We hardly ever fought, we never cheated, but it seems I was choking the life out of my wife, where she was struggling with her own losses, and I was struggling with trying to find a purpose in life.

The doctors want me to take pills and I refuse. I have always been against anti-depressants. I am seeking professional help which unfortunately is a long waiting list, but I know I have serious issues to deal with including low self esteem, jealousy, and a need for attention to name a few.

I don't want to discontinue my study of the materials that many here learn from, but I do have to admit, I need to widen my scope, because this event has hit me like nothing else. I have no one to talk to right now and I don't know if I have been taken down the right or the wrong path.

I'm hoping there is someone that will connnect with what I have written

Dean
 
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