Isn't suffering still an attachment to something

Well I have to say, this has been uplifiting.

I just needed to know that doing what I do has a purpose, I mean my normal work, i.e. father, friend, lover, bread winner etc. Integrating 'The Work' into 'my work'.

RedFox, what you have just described of yourself, has many similarities with me. Self observation whilst doing my work, is doing The Work, and understanding my personality.

I might be going too far too soon, but I think I need to realize I am attaching myself too much to the end goals of my work, instead of being in the moment, which is obviously the best for doing The Work.

I also think I know my Aim for the time being, and that is to stop being too reactive to set backs, be it financial, trouble with the kids, or even if something breaks in the house. For example, the other day, the towel rack broke in the bathroom, and out of me came the customary 'this house is always falling apart', and my mood instantly goes darker. I left it for about 4 days, saying to myself 'you can't break now, because you are already broken', but can you imagine a bathroom without a towel rack. Anyway, once I stopped feeling sorry for myself, I went to the shed, found some screws etc, and fixed it, and then once I fixed it I had a bright idea to put up three hooks on the wall, so towels could be hung up there too, keeping the towel rack from becoming overcrowded with towels, which was the cause of its breaking off!

Don't worry -- with persistent self-observation it will become apparent gradually, over time. The group may be able to help if given enough opportunities to observe and interact with you.
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Thanks guys.
 
PepperFritz,

I just wanted to say Thank You! Your reply to Dingo was a great reminder for me to keep focused on the Work, and what that truly means, when it comes to actually doing the work. I personally have struggled with isolating myself in the thought that I could do the work on my own. Nothing is farther from the real truth! :scared: I made most of the mistakes you pointed out in your post early on in my attempts at doing the work. These mistakes only slowed any progress and further delayed real growth for myself.

Dingo, take heed to what is being offered to you. It is sage advice and I can tell you first hand that it is easy to go astray when it comes to the work.

Thanks PF,

gwb
 
Dingo said:
I also think I know my Aim for the time being, and that is to stop being too reactive to set backs, be it financial, trouble with the kids, or even if something breaks in the house.
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Expressing negative emotions can be hard to overcome. I find myself struggling with this alot, both in myself and definitely in people around me. It's just so draining to be around so much negativism.

I read something that I wanted to share about this.

From An approach to the teaching left by Gurdjieff, Toward Awakening, Jean Vaysse, p. 44, 45
He who observes himself very soon notices that he is unable to observe anything impartially; this is particularly true for what he sees in himself, but also for what he sees outside himself. About every single thing, he has a personal 'feeling': 'I don't care,' 'I like it,' or 'I dislike it.' But whereas he can easily refrain from expressing his agreement or indifference, it is almost impossible for him not to express his disapproval in one way or another. This easily becomes a habit and is often even taken as a sign of sincerity. The negative impression received in such a case is expressed in some form of violence, contentiousness or depression - anger, jealousy, faultfinding, suspicion, worry, fear, self-pity, and so on. In all these forms some expression of personal negativity replaces the simple expression which flows from just noting the facts as they are. These forms bear witness to my inability to keep my personal grievances to myself and to a tendency to let them gush out over my surroundings so as not 'to feel alone' - to make others share them and to try to get rid of them in that way. This is both a sign of my own weakness, my incapacity to accept myself and things as they are, and an enormous and useless waste of energy which I impose also on those near me in a chain reaction which spreads and multiplies the negativity. Now this is one of the few emotional processes which can be cut short without risk of harmful consequences. Brought to bear on the expression of negative emotions (for it is their outer expression which needs to be restrained and not the emotions themselves), this struggle in no way upsets the inner equilibrium. It only involves the saving of a considerable amount of energy which would have been totally lost if spent externally but which, being saved in this way, can be used for other purposes. At the same time, it allows the observer to discover in himself an entirely new aspect of the emotional process with which he lives.
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Thx Helle,
That certainly added another dimension to the mix. Now I know that I am manifesting my withheld reactions in other ways.

One question to all. It has been suggested that suppressed emotions can be harmful. With The Work, the idea is to not suppress the emotions, not to avoid them either, but to use them, i.e. the energy in better ways.

Am I too early in asking this: but what are examples of using this energy in other ways? The only reference I have seen so far is a post, which unfortunately I can not find at this time, but it is based on depression, and someone answered the post with a 5 step process for handling negative emotions, where one of the steps is to relax, another is to recognize the external event that triggered the emotion, and I do spend time doing these observations and relaxations, although not as often as I would like.

Are there other examples of using the energy for more productive uses?

Thanks
Dean
 
Thanks Los,

I quite enjoyed that, and it alerted me to something.

I suggested earlier that I think an Aim for me would be to stop reacting to set backs however after reading from the post you linked to, I thought maybe a better aim is to consider others.

A while ago, I was reading a book that talked of considering others by stepping in to their shoes for a while. When I did this with my wife, i.e. stepped into her shoes, I got a very powerful reaction inside of me, it was so powerful I couldn't keep it up. All I was doing was attempting to 'be' her and assess what she may be thinking and feeling at that point based on what she was doing and saying at that point.

I have tried it a few more times since but never for any decent length of time, and by that I mean no more than a few seconds!

But I'll never forget the impact of that first feeling, I can't describe it, but it was very new, powerful, and somewhat exciting (probably because it was new but also because I thought it the right thing or a good thing to be doing).

Because it seems to me to actually perform this task on a more regular basis would take a lot of effort from me, I am thinking that maybe this is a more productive aim than my original suggestion, which by the way is something I have been exercising for a while anyway, so it is not like I would be stopping it. I'll continue to try and observe my reactions so as to attempt to change them.

Any thoughts? If I do take this idea as an aim and work with it, any suggestions on the amount of time per day for such exercises, or is this something I'll work out on my own?

Dean
 
It seems to me that watching and understanding ones own reactions/behavior in different situations is knowledge of the self which is perhaps one of the main aims of the Work. Only with some progress in understanding our own selves can we effectively practice external consideration which is trying to relate to another person by putting oneself in that person's shoes. I try to gain self-knowledge by
a) observing my behavior and reactions through my interactions with the world and
b) by putting my observations within a framework using the information I obtain from reading the suggested psychology books
From personal experience a typical process in my case goes like
1) I set external consideration as my aim while interacting with person A
2) I start off but soon A says or does something that provokes a reaction in me and I get identified with my own reactions
3) I realize that I am back to identifying with my own reactions and this teaches me something more about my own machine.
4) I use this self-knowledge gained through this interaction with A to refine my efforts towards external consideration towards A and others.

For myself, reading the recommended psychology books has been invaluable. Without them (and off course this forum), I would easily delude myself into believing I understood what is being said in ISOTM and/or Gnosis etc and use the information gained to inflate my sense of self-importance without making any real progress. I have found that most of the things that bother me greatly about other people are the same traits that are suppressed or even openly expressed by my own self in different circumstances. It is quite a shock to actually realize this and it has helped me in my efforts to become more externally considerate to others. After all, "they" are machines just like I am. So that is why I feel that self-knowledge naturally leads to being more considerate towards others. fwiw
 
obyvatel said:
It seems to me that watching and understanding ones own reactions/behavior in different situations is knowledge of the self which is perhaps one of the main aims of the Work. Only with some progress in understanding our own selves can we effectively practice external consideration which is trying to relate to another person by putting oneself in that person's shoes. I try to gain self-knowledge by
a) observing my behavior and reactions through my interactions with the world and
b) by putting my observations within a framework using the information I obtain from reading the suggested psychology books
From personal experience a typical process in my case goes like
1) I set external consideration as my aim while interacting with person A
2) I start off but soon A says or does something that provokes a reaction in me and I get identified with my own reactions
3) I realize that I am back to identifying with my own reactions and this teaches me something more about my own machine.
4) I use this self-knowledge gained through this interaction with A to refine my efforts towards external consideration towards A and others.
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I think these are really good observations. I think external consideration begins there, when we "make progress understanding our own selves." I think seeing how we react in different situations and becoming more conscious of the automatic attitudes that are formed from these reactions is necessary before even beginning to externally consider anyone. If I’m too busy reacting inwardly then how can I act outwardly to consider anyone else when I’m blinded by these very reactions? But if I can see my reaction in a situation and be in front of it as it were, then I become less identified with the reaction, which includes those inner attitudes that result from having the reactions think for me.

Sometimes I picture it in this way. When I’m identified with my reactions and let them “run the show” then its as if I’m moving in a horizontal direction, as if the force that drives the reactions is a force that moves horizontally, kinda like the way a movie projector automatically moves from one scene to the other. Then there is another force of a different quality that moves perpendicular to that flow and this force allows me the ‘ableness’ to stop and catch a glimpse of the reactions, as if the projector stops for a moment and I can begin to catch a ‘scene’ in the show and feel the life of the actors within it. But there is something in me that has to be outside the movement of the projector (when it stops) so that I can begin to get the requisite data to study the scenes in more detail.

But it takes an inner effort to see this reaction machine. I must be willing to be there and witness it. It’s not an effort of my mind, although I think it can begin with my mind. But there must be an emotional component to it. I have to see how lazy I am, how indifferent this (mechanical) part of me is to the suffering of others. I have to feel the horror of it and allow myself to feel it without looking away. Then, when I see this part of myself, and if I accept it for what it is as a sleeping reactive machine, then I’m ready to begin, to begin, real external consideration since these reactions are not in complete control of me anymore, It doesn’t mean that I’m still not affected by these reactions but at least the reactions are not in total control. It no longer completely controls my attitudes towards those whom I am reacting too.

Then a ‘space’ opens up in me where I’m a little more able to feel another persons suffering and feel their thoughts, their state of mind. Then, from being able to see others more clearly I’m now more able to see myself. I think it is within this ‘space’ where the psychological body can begin to form and grow. But the efforts most be continuous and be a combined effort of the energies provided by my body, emotions and mind. My mind alone is not enough to make the effort since; although it can picture the effort and can have an image of the effort being made it can’t make the actual effort. There has to be that emotional component, the horror of the witnessing of my unconscious self in its many different mechanical aspects and all of the actual/ potential damage it did/can do to others and to myself when the reaction machine has been allowed to run amok .This gives me that necessary emotional force to make the efforts (along with the actual physical discipline of the body acting when required to act). The attention must be unwavering and I think that it’s this unwavering attention that begins the alchemical processes that will grow a psychological body (or the ‘inner Being bodies’ that Gurdjieff talks about).
 
Thanks obyvatel and kenlee

I have found that most of the things that bother me greatly about other people are the same traits that are suppressed or even openly expressed by my own self in different circumstances.
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This is a great point. I have been aware of this for quite some time and have no reason to doubt its truth. In fact I think other people can offer a chance to reflect something back to us, or they are there for wisdom or direction. The first would be the most probable in every day life.

I think these are really good observations. I think external consideration begins there, when we "make progress understanding our own selves."  I think seeing how we react in different situations and becoming more conscious of the automatic attitudes that are formed from these reactions is necessary before even beginning to externally consider anyone.
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I wanted to share with everyone who is at least reading this thread where I began my journey of self observation so fwiw, people can tell where I have come from.
This link is to a mindfulness meditation 6 part series, which in effect does two things, teaches you to meditate, and teaches you to observe yourself from your breathing, to your body, to your emotions, to your thoughts, mind, reactions and so on. The body, emotions and thoughts seem to be in line with the three lower centers talked about in ISOTM.
__http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-intromed.html
In fact these are updated, but you can download all the material for free. I just did one a week, and downloaded them to my ipod. The exercises are great for teaching the simple art of self observing. What I have found since doing this is how to relate one area to another, for example, when I sense tightening in my muscles around the neck, I can eventually observe that I am feeling an emotion and I am thinking something negative, and then I can tell what triggered it. But until I notice one of these things, I am immersed in the activity I am doing and the emotions, body aches and thoughts are going on without my knowledge, but my mood has changed. It's quite easy to tell or feel a mood change, but not so easy to observe it, and all its components etc.

A perfect example of this was when I driving back from holidaying, I was towing my boat, and it was very hot and windy. Every time I got to a hill, the vehicle would struggle to get over 65 kmh, and cars behind me would bank up, unable to overtake because it was a hill. I noticed ill feelings in my stomach every time this happened, the ill feeling was like an acid was forming in my gut. I then realized I was focused on three things I had absolutely no control over, 1) wishing the wind would die down, 2)wishing my vehicle would go faster, and 3) what the people behind me were thinking. It wasn't until I realized this I was able to connect the feelings in my stomach to this, and subsequently stop it. That is I stopped worrying about the things I could not control and relaxed my body and the feelings in my stomach went away. This was ongoing though, as I would get to another hill and the whole process would start again, but each time it got easier to observe the process and stop it.

When I first started this thread, I was fed up. Fed up because I felt I have been going round in circles.  When someone reminded me that it is better that I go on living as usual, I felt uplifted. So, it seems that I have attachment to things I do and be and I must look into this. I want to 'know' that I have a purpose for being here.

Thanks all, you've been great
 
I was wondering if reading the book 'The Mask of Sanity' is advised too? I notice it is not on the list of 4, but I have it on my computer desktop so I must have downloaded it form somewhere recently

Thanks
 
Thankyou.

I just want to tell a short experience this morning.

Basically, I am worse than I was when I first started this thread. My body aches, my wife says I look pale, hungry and tired. I have no motivation, yet I have plenty to do, and basically some good business prospects for the future, but things are not happening as I'd like with regards to some of my business. When I wake up in the morning I am filled with the aches, the annoyance at my lack of motivation, not knowing what to do, and basically not wanting to look at anyone.

My daughter comes in every morning before being picked up for school and lays next to me with her blue eyes and smiling face. Normally I have to muster up strength to show her that she is welcome next to me to say 'good morning', although I wish she wasn't there in case I don't give her the happy face she desires.

This morning I was able to put myself in her shoes. I looked through her eyes at me. I am crying as I write this. I felt such anger at myself, sadness too, but I was able to give her what she wanted with far less struggle than normally.

Just thought I'd share that

Dean
 
Dingo said:
Basically, I am worse than I was when I first started this thread. My body aches, my wife says I look pale, hungry and tired. I have no motivation, yet I have plenty to do, and basically some good business prospects for the future, but things are not happening as I'd like with regards to some of my business. When I wake up in the morning I am filled with the aches, the annoyance at my lack of motivation, not knowing what to do, and basically not wanting to look at anyone.
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If you haven't already, it may be worthwhile to look into Laura's question:

Laura said:
I know this is gonna sound kind of strange since you've probably tried everything, but have you tried the anti-candida protocol with nystatin and fluconazole?
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Hi Los, I don't think that question was directed to me, and I have not the foggiest as to what it means
 
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