Isn't suffering still an attachment to something

[Laura]

I too am suffering an almost intolerable degree. I have Morgellons Disease, and the manifestations are both physically painful and psyche-destroying. Everything I ever believed in has come into question; I even doubt my own sanity or even whether I am in fact still alive. The things that happen with this affliction are not even earthly....it is beyond what the most imaginative sci-fi writers can think up.
I still have the slightest attachment to my family or I'd be outta here...to where, I don't know...what is on the other side of death?

I know this is gonna sound kind of strange since you've probably tried everything, but have you tried the anti-candida protocol with nystatin and fluconazole?

 

[Argonaut]

[quote author=Dingo]
Why am I so important in this cosmos that I must have to do this challenge, learn all these lessons. Why, and for what?
[/quote]

Here is my understanding on this; if I'm off-base in any way I hope someone will correct me.

Gurdjieff talked about awakening being an individual struggle against the cosmos. In general, the mechanical universe is best served by mankind staying asleep. When one starts the work, the General Law actually fights any attempts to wake up. The cass glossary entry on the General Law may give useful info for you.

As for why, Gurdjieff said that schools of the fourth way form when a certain number of awakened people are needed for some purpose. Laura and the C's have said that the current purpose involves Earth's upcoming shift to fourth density, and the possibility that Earth has a chance to become an STO planet, but may also become an evil, STS planet.

So the cosmos needs the bulk of mankind to stay mechanical, but it also needs a certain "quota" of us to wake up. You must struggle against the universe itself in order to awaken, but only because if it were too easy, then too many people would do it. There are other factors besides this, of course, but this is a large part of it.

[quote author=Dingo]
Am I really that important to the cosmos?
[/quote]

Yes. If you remain asleep, you're important in the same way that one cell in an organism is important - not as an individual, but as a part of the whole of organic life on Earth. If you awaken, you could be an important part of helping Earth in its transition to fourth density. You may also become helpful in other ways; look how the C's have helped Laura (and all of us) for example. :) But on the other hand, the cosmos doesn't care if you as an individual wake up or not. It needs a certain number to awaken at a given time, but whether or not you personally are among that number is only of importance for you, not for the cosmos.

I'm sorry you feel such misery. But as others have said here, it seems to indicate that you're on the right track.

 

[anart]

Alderpax, I think you're correct for the most part, though I'd have to say that the idea that one must 'struggle against the Universe' is a bit off. The idea is to align oneself with the Universe - to see it as it sees itself, as it were, and to love it in its entirety - to love both faces of 'god' - the wrathful and the nurturing.

In order to awaken, one must struggle against ones own 'mechanicalness' (which is entropic) - and I see how you would relate the General Law to the Universe, but the General Law is just one infinitesimal aspect of the Universe - one specific for our 'realm', at least to my current understanding.

Why am I so important in this cosmos that I must have to do this challenge, learn all these lessons. Why, and for what?

I would suggest that there is no 'must' - you will do what you do, as will we all. The vast majority of human beings who begin to Seek and try to find a way out of this prison do so because they are so overwhelmingly dissatisfied and sickened by their current existence and understanding that to not Seek is to die - figuratively and literally. There is no 'must' - there is simply nothing else to do - nothing else gives meaning to life.

I suppose it comes down to an internal drive, no matter how tiny, to live - to align with Creativity - and it has nothing to do with 'must' or with some external requirement - it is all - all of it - all and everything - internal and we will do what we will do. I realize that might not be much help - but, fwiw.

 

[Argonaut]

[quote author=anart]
Alderpax, I think you're correct for the most part, though I'd have to say that the idea that one must 'struggle against the Universe' is a bit off. The idea is to align oneself with the Universe - to see it as it sees itself, as it were, and to love it in its entirety - to love both faces of 'god' - the wrathful and the nurturing.

In order to awaken, one must struggle against ones own 'mechanicalness' (which is entropic) - and I see how you would relate the General Law to the Universe, but the General Law is just one infinitesimal aspect of the Universe - one specific for our 'realm', at least to my current understanding.
[/quote]

Ah, I see. The General Law is too specific to say that the entire Universe is working through it to keep us asleep. I should've realized this... Especially since I know that the purpose of awakening is to align with the Universe and love it as it is. That's what my own avatar signifies. Yet I made such a silly mistake, practically calling the Universe our enemy. Thanks for the correction.

One thing confuses me about the General Law - Its purpose is to keep humans asleep so they can fulfill their function as part of the Earth's organic life. According to Gurdjieff, organic life's "function" is to act as a shock in the interval between the Earth and the moon, which feeds on us. But isn't Gurdjieff's "moon" actually 4D STS? If so, does that mean the General Law - and organic life on Earth - are in place specifically to serve the Lizzies? This doesn't seem right to me, but it sounds like what is being said.

 

[tridean]

Thank you to all.

From Pepperfritz' post

Quote from: Dingo on May 06, 2009, 03:32:30 PM
But now that I have been studying more of the G material etc, it seems that all I am really doing is changing one skin for another, and that it doesn't matter how many skins I change into over time, it's the same thing. I can achieve a business goal, a health goal, a relationship goal that one is normally proud of but in the end, it is no different, they are all 'personality' goals AND I think it is this that has really grounded me here.

That's a very important and significant realization to come to.

Quote from: Dingo on May 06, 2009, 03:32:30 PM
No more often in my life have I been asking myself 'what is the point', I am screaming to the god damn heavens for crying out loud. Why am I so important in this cosmos that I must have to do this challenge, learn all these lessons. Why, and for what? ... Am I wrong to be constantly asking 'what is the point'? Is it NOT my right to do this, as it is seen as an inward consideration or 'want' to know

It is your "right" to desire and seek the meaning of your life and existence. But it is not your "right" to be given the answers to those questions on demand, without work, commitment, and lesson-learning on your part. The question is, are you prepared to commit yourself to discovering that meaning, no matter what it takes, no matter how much "suffering" it might entail? Are you prepared to give up your illusions and Subjectivity in order to discover truth and Objectivity?

It sounds as though you are close to reaching the point of Bankruptcy, which the Cass Glossary describes as follows:
Quote
["Bankruptcy"] is Mouravieff's term for a turning point in life where one constates that the external life can no longer provide meaning to life. This may or may not take the form of a crisis in external life but the essential idea is that formerly held inner 'A influence' values of worldly success, romance, learning, career and the like suffer an irrecoverable crash.

To truly seek on the 4th Way, one should have gone through bankruptcy, losing one's fascination with the transient values of the world. This bankruptcy will generally also involve disillusionment and disappointment with religion, various occultism or other spiritual pursuits one may have thus far had.

This bankruptcy may be a catalyst for the extra internal honesty which is needed for one to fundamentally recognize one's mechanicality, the anarchy of little I's and other such features of inner life. Such a fundamental admission is necessary for practically benefiting from the practice of the 4th Way.

I suspect that you are in a kind of "in between" state, where you have come to realize the illusory nature of the "personal goals" that you have worked so hard to attain, but either do not know how or are not yet prepared to commit to the next step. I suspect that your mechanical suffering arises from a desire to know the Truth, while also struggling to keep one foot anchored in the world of illusion. You want to know, but at the same time you don't want to know, because the answers are uncomfortable and difficult to face, and require sacrifice. Part of you is angry and despondent that you are no longer able to effectively buffer yourself from objective reality by preoccupying yourself with "personal goals". That part of you is "suffering". Such suffering is "mechanical" in that it is purely "reactional" in nature.

I would characterize intentional/conscious suffering as being pain or discomfort that one CHOOSES to experience, that one INTENTIONALLY pursues -- not simply for the sake of suffering (as though suffering were in and of itself some "purifying" or growth-promoting experience) -- but as a necessary means of learning to to see ourselves, others, and the world around us from the perspective of OBJECTIVITY , instead of through the distorting prism of our own SUBJECTIVITY -- i.e., our emotional issues, programs, mechanical behaviour, sacred cows, wishful thinking, etc.

Quote from: Dingo on May 06, 2009, 03:32:30 PM
...if someone could give me an example of conscious suffering/intentional suffering that would be appreciated.

Examples of conscious/intentional suffering:

* Committing yourself to practicing the kind of daily self-observation recommended by Gurdjieff in his 4th Way Teaching ("the Work").
* Consistent participation in a group such as this forum, where others also involved in the Work can provide feedback and act as an objective mirror.
* Practicing External Consideration, whereby you intentionally sublimate your own needs, preoccupations, and perspective in order to objectively perceive and respond to those in your immediate environment.
* Learning to strategically deal with and endure without complaint the Petty Tyrants in your life, in order to learn discipline, forbearance, and mastery of Self.
* Working to become psychologically healthy, by honestly examining your own family history and past patterns of thinking and behaviour, whether through formal psychotherapy or by reading the following "Big Four" psychology books recommended by the QFG: 1) The Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout; 2) The Narcissistic Family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman & Robert M. Pressman; 3) Trapped in The Mirror by Elan Goulomb; 4) Unholy Hungers by Barbara Hort


I'm sure that other forum members can come up with more examples, as well as specific situations from their own experience in the Work.You may also come to a clearer understanding by reading the thread titled Intentional Sufferings, especially the response from Nomad and the post by Carpe in which he quotes extensively from the QFS book Essays on Life.

As explained by Gurdjieff: "Mechanical suffering is rooted in subjectivity and consideration for self. Intentional or conscious suffering is on the other hand rooted in internal struggle for objectivity.

I hope the above is helpful.

Hi Pepperfritz,
I firstly need to say, from day one on this forum I have appreciated your input, whether directed to me or others.

Your post certainly answered a lot for me, as did posts from others, however your post answered other questions that I had building up during reading of ISOTM. I am only up to page 264 of this book, but I find it difficult to read on when the number of questions I have keep mounting, and they are not being answered in the book.

The bullet points are great. Going through ISOTM I was fearing more and more that such a list, albeit quite short, was not going to be forthcoming.

I suspect that you are in a kind of "in between" state, where you have come to realize the illusory nature of the "personal goals" that you have worked so hard to attain, but either do not know how or are not yet prepared to commit to the next step. I suspect that your mechanical suffering arises from a desire to know the Truth, while also struggling to keep one foot anchored in the world of illusion. You want to know, but at the same time you don't want to know, because the answers are uncomfortable and difficult to face, and require sacrifice. Part of you is angry and despondent that you are no longer able to effectively buffer yourself from objective reality by preoccupying yourself with "personal goals". That part of you is "suffering". Such suffering is "mechanical" in that it is purely "reactional" in nature.

Yes. For a while whenever I was experiencing one of these episodes, I would start to look for help, more in the spiritual realm, however I always argued back that I was concerned that the answers were not going to be what I wanted.

I do have a serious question regarding my family. I want to provide for my family, in in the process of doing so am met with challenges, and I mean the illusory challenges such as needing more money over time, i.e. to keep in line with inflation, to fulfill my families needs etc, for a bigger house, to be an example to my kids and so on. When a lot of these goals become 'necessary' in light of externally considering my family, how does this fit in? Do people who do the work still meet these challenges? Are these still priorities because to 'not' do them puts the family at risk?

And on the subject of externally considering, does this mean whether or not they are in STS mode, do I still consider others regardless of what is motivating them?

Another question I have is how does one find their 'chief fault' as suggested by G, from an internet environment? Is it still possible for groups such as this to point out another's chief fault?

I still have a lot of other questions, and I have yet to finish ISOTM. If I am finding I have too many questions, does this suggest something is amiss?

Many thanks
Dean

 

[Mountain Crown]

And on the subject of externally considering, does this mean whether or not they are in STS mode, do I still consider others regardless of what is motivating them?

It would not be External Consideration otherwise. We are all in STS mode.

Do people who do the work still meet these challenges?

Doing the work while meeting these challenges is one of the defining principles of the 4th Way.

 

[tridean]

Quote
Do people who do the work still meet these challenges?

Doing the work while meeting these challenges is one of the defining principles of the 4th Way.

Hi Mountain Crown,
I am a little confused because am I not keeping one foot in the illusory world if I am forced to chase goals of a material nature etc?

 

[RedFox]

Quote
Do people who do the work still meet these challenges?

Doing the work while meeting these challenges is one of the defining principles of the 4th Way.

Hi Mountain Crown,
I am a little confused because am I not keeping one foot in the illusory world if I am forced to chase goals of a material nature etc?

Hi Dingo

My understanding is that it is essential to be in the world in order to learn the lessons we are presented with here, it is our chosen mode of learning.
The key however is 'to be in the world, but not of it', which I take to mean pay attention to the world as objectively as you can, but don't be attached/identified/defined by it. Learn the lessons (higher or otherwise) through the medium of 3d existence, without being 'stuck' in the 3d medium.

What can you learn from being 'forced to chase goals of a material nature etc?' what part(s) of you is chasing them? Do you need to chase them? Are they necessary for fulfilling the responsibility you have for those in your life? Are you identifying with what you are chasing? What are you not doing by being 'forced to chase them?' What is the 'force' behind the 'chase'? :)

 

[Mountain Crown]

Dingo:

One must have an aim.

These things may become more clear to you with the understanding of the third force and the necessity of having an aim

 

[Mountain Crown]

The solution to illusion is the development of objective understanding. Resisting the temptation to escape illusion without working for this objectivity is important. Consciousness or sleep is the issue.

 

[tridean]

One must have an aim.

These things may become more clear to you with the understanding of the third force and the necessity of having an aim

What can you learn from being 'forced to chase goals of a material nature etc?' what part(s) of you is chasing them? Do you need to chase them? Are they necessary for fulfilling the responsibility you have for those in your life? Are you identifying with what you are chasing? What are you not doing by being 'forced to chase them?' What is the 'force' behind the 'chase'?

I think I see!

My aims will come about from self observation? If I react to my child running through the house, I need to observe objectively, the reasons for my reaction, and by reason, I mean internal reasons such as beliefs etc, not actually because the child is running? If this is true, then can I say that at least this is something I have been practicing a bit now (for many reactions, not just my child running through the house, but even the way I respond with words, and bodily movements to events etc).

An aim can be the breaking of a habit, such as a reaction? But one must first observe objectively the reaction, and then what causes it internally, not externally.

Then I can take this same approach of self observation and ask the sorts of questions RedFox proposed to me. The asking of these questions will unearth the real motivations, and then these real motivations need to be objectively viewed to discover the underlying beliefs behind them.

For example, do I believe in scarcity, do I fear cancer, and is it these fears that motivate me to act the way I do. In my case, do I fear that by not realizing a financial goal is going to cause hardship, and if so, what is behind this fear, am I attached to this fear or belief, and can I let it go?

I hope I am getting closer to this, but after reading the section on Aim in the glossary, it may be that I am thinking too far ahead, for I do remember in ISOTM that the first task is to record, but I just feel as if I've been doing this for a quite a while.

Do you all know your chief faults? Do you all have aims, do you feel you need to find external help (i.e. from others in this forum) in knowing your chief fault and your aim?

Thanks
Dean

 

[SeekingtheTruth]

Quote
Do people who do the work still meet these challenges?

Doing the work while meeting these challenges is one of the defining principles of the 4th Way.

Hi Mountain Crown,
I am a little confused because am I not keeping one foot in the illusory world if I am forced to chase goals of a material nature etc?

Hi Dingo

My understanding is that it is essential to be in the world in order to learn the lessons we are presented with here, it is our chosen mode of learning.
The key however is 'to be in the world, but not of it', which I take to mean pay attention to the world as objectively as you can, but don't be attached/identified/defined by it. Learn the lessons (higher or otherwise) through the medium of 3d existence, without being 'stuck' in the 3d medium.

What can you learn from being 'forced to chase goals of a material nature etc?' what part(s) of you is chasing them? Do you need to chase them? Are they necessary for fulfilling the responsibility you have for those in your life? Are you identifying with what you are chasing? What are you not doing by being 'forced to chase them?' What is the 'force' behind the 'chase'? :)

What RedFox said reminded me of something Les Visible wrote some time ago that I think might be useful to think about as you attempt to understand "the 'force' behind the 'chase":

When you study religious and metaphysical texts you will find after awhile that you will never read more than a portion of them. You will find that they confirm and contradict with equal measure. You will find that they clarify and obscure with equal measure. You will find that they promise both Paradise and Hell in equal measure. You will find that you haven’t found anything because what you may wish to find is beyond mere texts and the mind that contemplates them.

In my limited fashion I am going to make it easier for you. I’m going to give you a key. This key may not be all that useful if you can’t find the keyhole it goes into. DNA isn’t of much use unless you have something to match it to. But I think you can find that the key has a sort of magnetic attraction to the lock it is meant to open.

There are two positions you can be in in the kinetic universe and there is another position you can be in when neither of these positions apply. Take no mind of the third position because we won’t be treating with that today. Let’s just focus on the former. You are either driving or you are driven. That’s all there is to it. I’m going to rummage around here for a bit and offer examples and do some of the other things I do while trying to reveal something without getting tangled in the curtains but… it won’t amount to any more than I just told you.

I want you to think of the devil’s pitchfork and I want you to think of an ox goad. I want you to think of reins and spurs and steering wheels, accelerators and brakes. I want you to think and then stop thinking.

All of us have seen the people on the highway who are racing to some destination where they can now focus their attention on feeling antsy about something else. All of us know what a pushing crowd is. All of us have watched people in supermarket lines or any lines where they are waiting for the number one consideration to be serviced and that would be them. These people are driven. Something is driving them. Something drives them when they are pounding into someone else sexually or arguing about something they don’t understand. Something is driving them when they seek to bend others to their will; their children, their spouses, their associates and even those unfortunate enough to be considered their friends.

Most of the world is driven… by appetites and desires… by hopes and dreams… by some mysterious urgency that they identify with their own will but they don’t have any will. There is only one will no matter in what circumstance it is applied. This will …can be perverted as in the application of so-called free will but it’s all part and parcel of one will. There’s only one divine agency and everything lives and moves because of their reliance upon it.

The devil and God are the same thing. They appear to be different depending on the perceptions of those miss-interpreting it. As I have said before, the devil is the way that evil people see God. The very word ‘sin’ translates in the original to “missing the mark”. That’s all it is.

The sole driver never misses the mark. The multitude of imagined drivers consistently steer the vehicle off the road. The horses are your senses. The reins are your mind. Until you can unify with the driver you will consistently be driven off the road by yourself; that which you imagine yourself to be and which has no real existence.

Now might be the time to think about that comment by Jesus where he said, “Get thee behind me Satan.” Think about it. The serpent in the Garden of Eden was God. God is a serpent as you can see by looking at any number of Hindu posters. In the Western tradition they like to use a corona and they like images such as the serpent crushed beneath the heel. Well, there are good serpents and bad serpents and there are those who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves and serpents eat doves so there are things to ponder and… we’ll see about that.

‘Adam’ defined in the original, translates as ‘namer of things.’ What you call something …it becomes to you.

We’re all living in a personal fantasy and we are all being driven through the landscape until exhaustion or calamity demands that we consider what we have refused to consider during our self-gratifying ignorance.

We’re all God in the becoming but there’s a lot of playing the “Sorcerers Apprentice” on the way. It doesn’t matter what religion you fancy. It doesn’t matter what name you give to the unknown. It doesn’t matter how much you think you know or how little you do know. What matters is if you make real contact with the thing itself. No other industry has the same importance. Nothing else matters. So why do people spend so much of their time on everything else? They’re driven. You’re all stolen cars.

Nothing you think is true is true. Everything you think is false is true to someone else and none of these matters either. What matters is whether you find the door and whether you have the key… if you know where the door is and what the key is and why there is a lock in the first place.

It can be very revealing if you watch the world in relation to ‘driving’ and ‘being driven’. Watch people. Watch what is going on. You’ll see it soon enough if you allow yourself to. Watch the posturing and jockeying for position. Watch what it gets them… every single one.

If you watch yourself you can see when the heat comes up and you feel compelled to move. You can feel yourself being driven. It won’t be many people who will consider this but everyone who does will recognize it. It’s part desire and part anxiety. It’ part fear and part crazy need. It’s mindlessness toward a place where you can hurry up and wait. No one gets there, wherever ‘there’ is and no one finds peace at the end of it because it doesn’t end, it just loops and that’s why it’s called a wheel of fire.

Driving can be pictured as sitting in someone’s lap with your hands on the steering wheel. You get the impression that you are driving but you are not and that’s a good thing. Driving is like trusting and trusting comes with surrender and seeing that all of a sudden you are very much on the road without any urgency at all. Someone is driving and that is what needs to be comprehended. All personal efforts at this will fail miserably for the purpose of just that lesson. Some people get there with due diligence and some through trauma and utter loss. Some get there through a purity of heart or clarity of mind but most of us get there because there’s nothing else left in the end.

If I could give anyone any advice and if there were any advice I thought to be more important for me to take than any other, it is to watch and see when I am being driven and to cease and desist so I could see who is driving. I haven’t said this very well but that’s about par for the course.

 

[tridean]

Seeking the Truth,
Yes, thanks for that article.

I think it may be some idea I have that I am awaiting on something, some sign or whatever. I have been along this road of observation for quite some time, and I have to admit, I do quite enjoy the challenge, I actually 'enjoy' seeing the 'driving' forces, as it were, in not only myself but other people. I took it upon myself even before finding this forum to uncover the beliefs and conditioning behind all of these habitual mechanical ways and emotional reactions.

I don't know. I guess maybe it is time to step back and read some more. At this current point in time I am not in the same emotional state as I was when I started this thread and looking back, I can see I was in part crying for help.

 

[PepperFritz]

I do have a serious question regarding my family. I want to provide for my family, in in the process of doing so am met with challenges, and I mean the illusory challenges such as needing more money over time, i.e. to keep in line with inflation, to fulfill my families needs etc, for a bigger house, to be an example to my kids and so on. When a lot of these goals become 'necessary' in light of externally considering my family, how does this fit in? Do people who do the work still meet these challenges? Are these still priorities because to 'not' do them puts the family at risk?

Your question touches on what really sets Gurdjieff's 4th-Way Teaching apart from other "esoteric" pathways. He emphasizes that the Work is not to be done in isolation, while meditating on some remote mountaintop. It can only be done within the context of ordinary life. He stresses that a person is not ready for the Work unless he has reached a certain level of maturity and responsibility, unless he is at the level of an obyvatel, which translates into "a good householder". As explained by Robin Skynner in his essay "Gurdjieff and Modern Psychology",

By this he appears to have meant someone who is equal to life, is able to cope with ordinary responsibilities and duties, is reasonable shrewd and "street-wise" when dealing with the world, and can support and help others, rather than being a burden to them. At the same time he makes it clear that this could be an ordinary person, with ordinary faults and limitations.

We sometimes see on the forum individuals who, when they first discover esoteric studies and the Work, experience a desire to withdraw from the world, from lives, jobs, relationships, families, etc. that now seem empty and meaningless to them. But to act on that desire would be to misunderstand the purpose of the Work. As Skynner further comments:

The more effective a system is in bringing about change and growth, the more effective it will be, when misused, for avoiding truth about oneself and perpetuating the existing attitudes and personality structure. This is why the Gurdjieff system, which offers the most powerful tools towards spiritual development and psychological change, seems also to be, when misunderstood, an extraordinarily effective method of avoiding the profound changes it could otherwise make possible....

The Work is not about withdrawing from the world, it is about learning to effectively be IN it without being OF it, without IDENTIFYING with it. As Maurice Nicholl (another Gurdjieff commentator) explains it:

The Work is not for the riff-raff of life, the people who are a nuisance and a burden to others, or for those who expect something for nothing. It is for responsible people -- for people who understand the difference between chaos and order, and see clearly that certain things must be done, no matter how they feel personally. There is a Work-definition of "good householder", namely a person who does what is necessary in life but does not believe in life. This is a curious phrase and worth reflecting upon all one's life. Many good householders believe in life, and believe that sooner or later life will become better than it is now. But this idea really is one that takes a wrong and outward direction. A man, a woman, can only progress in themselves... by giving up what they have come to think they are. This is where self-observation starts. It is your own life-built Personality that must be observed... until something separates from it. The thing that separates is what can grow.... We begin to see what is NOT us -- what life has built up in us -- what we have hitherto taken as ourselves.... It does not begin with going against oneself. How can you go against something you do not know? So it is necessary to begin with self-observation.... This is the beginning of the inner development of which the Work speaks so much. Things may and do go on just the same, for a long time. But if they are observed often, continually, at intervals, they slowly begin to alter....

And on the subject of externally considering, does this mean whether or not they are in STS mode, do I still consider others regardless of what is motivating them?

We are ALL in "STS mode". It is the nature of our 3rd-density existence. It is important to remember that External Consideration is not so much for the benefit of others, as for your own growth and development. It is a means of learning how to increasingly eliminate Inner Consideration from you thinking and behaviour -- no matter whom you may be dealing with.

Another question I have is how does one find their 'chief fault' as suggested by G, from an internet environment? Is it still possible for groups such as this to point out another's chief fault?

Don't worry -- with persistent self-observation it will become apparent gradually, over time. The group may be able to help if given enough opportunities to observe and interact with you.

Hope that is helpful. :)

___________________________________-

References:

Robin Skynner, "Gurdjieff and Modern Psychology", from Gurdjieff: Essays and Reflections on the Man and his Teachings

Maurice Nicholl, Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky

 

[RedFox]

PepperFritz your second reference link is the same as the first book, I think this one is the right book.

fwiw I had exactly the same feelings (even before finding sott/the work) of retreating from life in order to sort myself out...and in some ways I needed to retreat a little to find my feat, but I realised that if I want to even be in a position to start the work with earnest I need to be a good obyvatel, a good householder.

This is still my goal along with self observation, and along with the recommended psychology books I'm actually making good progress on that goal osit.
Just immersing myself in the work here, reading and researching has held up enough mirrors to see that diving into G's work would probably not be a good idea without first getting my own house in order. I can be extremely lazy, self adsorbed and worst of all am very good at running away from my responsibilities/myself/life in general....and I had to understand that (without identifying with it and getting bogged down in self pity...just more running away) to know where to start and what my aim should be.
It was reading a post very similar to PepperFritz a year or two ago that finally made me realise this.

Its good to be reminded too, because it makes me realise that I tend to forget my goal sometimes!

Ironically I now realise that by aiming to be a good householder and self observe I've already started the work, or so it seems :)