ISOTM Question

Immersion said:
I've just been reading 'In Search of the Miraculous' and I wanted to talk about the feelings/states of mind I felt while doing so.

I just learnt about G's take on personality/essence and while taking it in I felt a certain shift in consciousness. It felt like my personality had shut down for a few minutes, I thought about eating some bad food (e.g. sugar) and got a horrible sensation throughout my body, but if I was to think about bad food a few hours ago I would have had a slight craving, mouth watering and then stomped it out by thinking of the consequences of such a short term pleasure.

I know it's not much of a question but I'd just like some help on understanding what I was feeling and if I'm on the right track or if I was just building some sort of illusion because If I don't get back into the book tomorrow and digest some more I'll lose this sensation of awakening(?).

FWIW, it sounds like you are feeling the struggle between yes and no. That's exactly what can begin to cause the friction necessary to keep returning to observation. I have the same kind of inner sensations with alcohol, and pretty much the only thing that helps me lean towards "no" is actively remembering the consequences.

Also like anart said, keep reading, reading, reading... and take notes that you can revisit to see where your thinking was at the time.

Piscarian said:
I was looking for a way to bring more structure to the process as well [...]

Gurdjieff outlines a pretty clear structure to this process, but IMO it can only be clear to a person after you've studied what he has to say. There's not really a sequence like 1, 2, 3 and bam: results, but there is a clear process of the development of man which is outlined in ISOTM. Namely, bringing all the aspects of life (food, breathing, study, relationships, actions, etc.) together in a real super-effort to be more conscious in each moment.
 
While studying The Work, 'I've' asked a few more questions, but I don't feel confident confirming the answers for myself. So if anyone has any input, fire away!

Whilst reading the C's transcripts, I came across the term 'Soul Development'.

Does the soul grow with progress relating to The Work, along with the consciousness?
Is the soul similar to, or the same as, the essence? Does soul development relate to raising awareness?
And if so, does the process of breaking illusions, and learning lessons from this, aid soul development?

Thanks, :)
 
Immersion said:
While studying The Work, 'I've' asked a few more questions, but I don't feel confident confirming the answers for myself. So if anyone has any input, fire away!

Whilst reading the C's transcripts, I came across the term 'Soul Development'.

Does the soul grow with progress relating to The Work, along with the consciousness?
Is the soul similar to, or the same as, the essence? Does soul development relate to raising awareness?
And if so, does the process of breaking illusions, and learning lessons from this, aid soul development?

Thanks, :)

As far as I can understand, yes. The Work is the process of developing the essence, and it and the soul are one and the same. Different names for the same thing. The Work is only possible if you have an essence that can grow. That is not deformed, or of a different nature, like a organic portal.
Breaking the illusions down is the process that allows you to hear the voice of the essence, to progressively let it guide your decisions. Therefore those realizations cannot be of only a theorethical character. All the information gained must become action, so to become knowledge.
When it becomes knowledge ingrained in your life, you may say that you learn that particular aspect of the lesson.

I hope that made sense.
 
Hi Immersion. I agree with Iron. Also, in this post, anart confirmed that soul and essence refer to the same thing.

Incarnation is the act of a soul being embodied whereas essence is the soul itself.

That being the case, I'd pretty much answer your other questions affirmatively as well.
 
Immersion said:
Does the soul grow with progress relating to The Work, along with the consciousness?

I think so.

[quote author=Immersion]
Is the soul similar to, or the same as, the essence?
[/quote]

I do not think that the soul is the same as essence. One is born with an essence but not necessarily with an individuated soul which needs to be developed with conscious effort. Gurdjieff did not use the term soul much as far as I am aware. I find Jacob Needleman's description of the soul in "Lost Christianity" useful and think it meshes well with 4th Way principles in general.

[quote author=Lost Christianity]
(1) The soul is the intermediate principle in human nature, occupying the place between the Spirit and the body. The former term, “Spirit,” Father Sylvan defines variously as “the movement toward Godhead,” “the Uncreated,” “Absolute Origin,” and “Eternal Mind.” The term “body” is also defined in a variety of ways, including but not limited to the physical body. Father Sylvan considers “thoughts” as part of the physical body.

(2) The power or function of the soul is attention; the development of attention is therefore approximately equivalent to the development and growth of the soul. But the soul also has several components, each with its own power of attention. All components must participate in the perfection of the soul. The principal power of the soul, which defines its real nature, is a gathered attention that is directed simultaneously toward the Spirit and the body. This is “attention of the heart.” And this is the principal mediating, harmonizing power of the soul.

(3) The mediating attention of the heart is spontaneously activated in man in the state of profound self-questioning, a state that is almost always inaccurately recognized and wrongly valued in everyday experience. “God can only speak to the soul,” Father Sylvan writes, “and only when the soul exists.” He goes on: “But the soul of man only exists for a moment, as long as it takes for the Question to appear and then to disappear, as, for example, in the encounter with death between grief and sadness, between shock and fear; or in the encounter with supersatisfaction, between emptiness and boredom; or in the encounter with life’s revolutionary disappointments, before free fall turns to self-pity.”

(4) The practice of Christianity begins with the repeated efforts to recognize what takes place in oneself in the state of self-questioning. This implies a struggle against attempts to cover over the Question by means of explanations, emotional reactions or physical action. Father Sylvan collectively calls these three impulses “the first dispersal of the soul.” Through this term, he points to the fact that the force of attention is wasted and degraded through absorption by one or another part of the psychophysical organism.

“Certain Oriental teachers,” he writes, “warn us against giving too much attention to the things of the world. Certain of our Christian teachers also say this. But here error creeps in. One may give all one’s outer attention to the world without harming oneself in any way. To tell the truth, we are called by the Creator to spend this kind of attention. The struggle of the Christian is to contain the energy of the Question within oneself, not allowing this deeper attention to be mixed with the attention of the psychophysical organism.” This “first dispersal of the soul” is termed elsewhere by Father Sylvan “attachment,” and in more traditional Christian language, “worldly cares.”

(5) Through containing this special psychic energy that is activated in the experience of deep self-questioning, “the soul comes into existence and begins to gather itself into an independent entity.” According to Father Sylvan, this process can never be carried out without proper guidance and is, in the strictest sense, the task of “authentic esoteric Christianity,” which he characterizes as “the esotericism of energy, rather than words or ideas.”
................

(6) Finally, a truly Christian life is possible only for an individual in whom the process of “soul-making” has gone past a certain point. Such individuals are rare, but only they are capable of altruism in the strictly spiritual sense. In Father Sylvan’s language, “the soul begins to radiate.” “The task of self-purification becomes fused with the act of helping my neighbor.” “The first aim of human life is to pass from dispersal to radiation.”
..................................................

In short, the soul is not a fixed entity. According to Father Sylvan, it is a movement that begins whenever man experiences the psychological pain of contradiction. It is an actual energy, but one that is only at some beginning stage of its development and action. Every day, every more or less average human individual experiences the appearance of this energy in its most embryonic stage. Whenever there is pain or contradiction, this energy of the soul is released or “activated.” But almost always, almost without any exceptions whatsoever, this new energy is immediately dispersed and comes to nothing. A hundred, a thousand times a day, perhaps, “the soul is aborted.” An individual is completely unaware of this loss and remains so throughout his whole life. Without the necessary help and guidance, he never reaches the orientation necessary for enabling these everyday experiences to accumulate.

For Father Sylvan, most of our ordinary emotional reactions—both pleasant and unpleasant—only serve to cover over these experiences of contradiction. And the behavior and actions that result from these emotions thicken the covering and lead to further emotional reactions. Man becomes trapped in “the automatism of non-redemptive experience,” a phrase that Father Sylvan juxtaposes with St. Paul’s “body of death.”

“Lost Christianity” is the lost or forgotten power of man to extract the pure energy of the soul from the experiences that make up his life. This possibility is distinct only in the most vivid or painful moments of our ordinary lives, but it can be discovered in all experiences if one knows how to seek it. Certain powerful experiences—such as the encounter with death or deep disappointment—are accompanied by the sensation of presence; an attention appears that is simultaneously open to a higher, freer mind (“Spirit”) and to all the perceptions, sensations and emotions that constitute our ordinary self. One feels both separate and engaged in a new and entirely extraordinary way. One experiences “I Am.” This is the soul (in inception).

[/quote]

Development of the soul leads to connection with the spiritual aspects of the self which may be referred to as the higher centers in 4th Way literature. These higher centers are always there - Adamic humanity (who have the potential of growing an individuated soul) cannot connect with these higher centers because of the absence of the bridge between this spiritual aspect and ordinary consciousness. Soul development through work on the self that balances out personality and essence leads to the development of this bridge. At least that is my present understanding.

fwiw
 
obyvatel said:
Immersion said:
Does the soul grow with progress relating to The Work, along with the consciousness?

I think so.

[quote author=Immersion]
Is the soul similar to, or the same as, the essence?

I do not think that the soul is the same as essence. One is born with an essence but not necessarily with an individuated soul which needs to be developed with conscious effort. Gurdjieff did not use the term soul much as far as I am aware. I find Jacob Needleman's description of the soul in "Lost Christianity" useful and think it meshes well with 4th Way principles in general.

[quote author=Lost Christianity]
(1) The soul is the intermediate principle in human nature, occupying the place between the Spirit and the body. The former term, “Spirit,” Father Sylvan defines variously as “the movement toward Godhead,” “the Uncreated,” “Absolute Origin,” and “Eternal Mind.” The term “body” is also defined in a variety of ways, including but not limited to the physical body. Father Sylvan considers “thoughts” as part of the physical body.

(2) The power or function of the soul is attention; the development of attention is therefore approximately equivalent to the development and growth of the soul. But the soul also has several components, each with its own power of attention. All components must participate in the perfection of the soul. The principal power of the soul, which defines its real nature, is a gathered attention that is directed simultaneously toward the Spirit and the body. This is “attention of the heart.” And this is the principal mediating, harmonizing power of the soul.

(3) The mediating attention of the heart is spontaneously activated in man in the state of profound self-questioning, a state that is almost always inaccurately recognized and wrongly valued in everyday experience. “God can only speak to the soul,” Father Sylvan writes, “and only when the soul exists.” He goes on: “But the soul of man only exists for a moment, as long as it takes for the Question to appear and then to disappear, as, for example, in the encounter with death between grief and sadness, between shock and fear; or in the encounter with supersatisfaction, between emptiness and boredom; or in the encounter with life’s revolutionary disappointments, before free fall turns to self-pity.”

(4) The practice of Christianity begins with the repeated efforts to recognize what takes place in oneself in the state of self-questioning. This implies a struggle against attempts to cover over the Question by means of explanations, emotional reactions or physical action. Father Sylvan collectively calls these three impulses “the first dispersal of the soul.” Through this term, he points to the fact that the force of attention is wasted and degraded through absorption by one or another part of the psychophysical organism.

“Certain Oriental teachers,” he writes, “warn us against giving too much attention to the things of the world. Certain of our Christian teachers also say this. But here error creeps in. One may give all one’s outer attention to the world without harming oneself in any way. To tell the truth, we are called by the Creator to spend this kind of attention. The struggle of the Christian is to contain the energy of the Question within oneself, not allowing this deeper attention to be mixed with the attention of the psychophysical organism.” This “first dispersal of the soul” is termed elsewhere by Father Sylvan “attachment,” and in more traditional Christian language, “worldly cares.”

(5) Through containing this special psychic energy that is activated in the experience of deep self-questioning, “the soul comes into existence and begins to gather itself into an independent entity.” According to Father Sylvan, this process can never be carried out without proper guidance and is, in the strictest sense, the task of “authentic esoteric Christianity,” which he characterizes as “the esotericism of energy, rather than words or ideas.”
................

(6) Finally, a truly Christian life is possible only for an individual in whom the process of “soul-making” has gone past a certain point. Such individuals are rare, but only they are capable of altruism in the strictly spiritual sense. In Father Sylvan’s language, “the soul begins to radiate.” “The task of self-purification becomes fused with the act of helping my neighbor.” “The first aim of human life is to pass from dispersal to radiation.”
..................................................

In short, the soul is not a fixed entity. According to Father Sylvan, it is a movement that begins whenever man experiences the psychological pain of contradiction. It is an actual energy, but one that is only at some beginning stage of its development and action. Every day, every more or less average human individual experiences the appearance of this energy in its most embryonic stage. Whenever there is pain or contradiction, this energy of the soul is released or “activated.” But almost always, almost without any exceptions whatsoever, this new energy is immediately dispersed and comes to nothing. A hundred, a thousand times a day, perhaps, “the soul is aborted.” An individual is completely unaware of this loss and remains so throughout his whole life. Without the necessary help and guidance, he never reaches the orientation necessary for enabling these everyday experiences to accumulate.

For Father Sylvan, most of our ordinary emotional reactions—both pleasant and unpleasant—only serve to cover over these experiences of contradiction. And the behavior and actions that result from these emotions thicken the covering and lead to further emotional reactions. Man becomes trapped in “the automatism of non-redemptive experience,” a phrase that Father Sylvan juxtaposes with St. Paul’s “body of death.”

“Lost Christianity” is the lost or forgotten power of man to extract the pure energy of the soul from the experiences that make up his life. This possibility is distinct only in the most vivid or painful moments of our ordinary lives, but it can be discovered in all experiences if one knows how to seek it. Certain powerful experiences—such as the encounter with death or deep disappointment—are accompanied by the sensation of presence; an attention appears that is simultaneously open to a higher, freer mind (“Spirit”) and to all the perceptions, sensations and emotions that constitute our ordinary self. One feels both separate and engaged in a new and entirely extraordinary way. One experiences “I Am.” This is the soul (in inception).

[/quote]

Development of the soul leads to connection with the spiritual aspects of the self which may be referred to as the higher centers in 4th Way literature. These higher centers are always there - Adamic humanity (who have the potential of growing an individuated soul) cannot connect with these higher centers because of the absence of the bridge between this spiritual aspect and ordinary consciousness. Soul development through work on the self that balances out personality and essence leads to the development of this bridge. At least that is my present understanding.

fwiw
[/quote]

Thanks Obyvatel for the clarification.
Yes Gurdjieff never uses the word soul in his writings, and my explanation was unclear about the diference between adamics versus pre-adamics.
 
Iron said:
Yes Gurdjieff never uses the word soul in his writings, and my explanation was unclear about the diference between adamics versus pre-adamics.

Actually, he does. At least in Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson. He is crediting one of his "Messengers from above", Saint Kirmininsasha, as having said it:

Saint Kirmininsasha via Beelzebub via Gurdjieff said:
Blessed is he that hath a soul; blessed also is he that hath none; but grief and sorrow are to him that hath in himself its conception.

From that, I would think that Gurdjieff knew of Organic Portals. Maybe he just thought it was best not to talk about them except in a fictional setting?

fwiw
 
I'm writing this post to ask for extra eyes whether my hypothesis while reading this page Usher Syndrome - NORD (National Organization for Rare Disorders) , would give some minor validation to the relationship between external impressions and the table of hydrogens that was described by Gurdjieff in the book ISOTM. On that page it says that the absence of an external impression (using the Gurdjieff term for auditory input) would lead to poorer processing of other external impressions in other part of the body.

And I thought about the way the food can influence the quality of any judgement (it's already mentioned in the books by Daniel Kahnemann that the judges most often offer favorable judgements after the lunch than during morning). And with the above hypothesis, I wonder if the certain group of foods can also alter the perception of temperature (it's a bit of a contentious point considering that there's big area, almost the entire body, where the temperature can be felt) which leads to the following point, would the junk/wrong food would make you to perceive the temperature in wrong ways which could lead to the concept of climate change paranoia.

As for myself, I do admit that during the time I was on keto diet, the hot weather didn't faze me, and survived thru it, and didn't require air conditioning, a fan was sufficient for me.
 
I propose that we test Gurdjieff's teachings and claims rigorously (just like we do in any scientific field) using evidence and logic.

I came across Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous almost a decade ago and have since read Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson and the other books in the series among others such as Joseph Azize's Gurdjieff: Mysticism, Contemplation, and Exercises.

My main aim is to come to an objective understanding about his teaching and its effectiveness for regular folks like me. The main intent here is to find teachings that actually work and not waste precious time chasing mirages. And I think we can do this by testing Gurdjieff's claims that can be proven false based on weight of evidence or logic. An exhaustive study is required to verify each claim which is perhaps more than I can find time for since there are a LOT of interesting ideas in his teachings. Laura has written quite a bit about working on oneself by dealing with "programs" and cognitive biases and there is value to be derived from many of Gurdjieff's ideas such as learning to transform negative emotions or not express them, being less mechanical, more disciplined, etc but there are also some big claims that deserve to be scrutinized more closely.

There is a lot of material spread across many books, not just the ones I listed above but to start somewhere here is one claim -

Page 188-189, Chapter IX
In Search of the Miraculous (PD Ouspensky)
"It is necessary to understand what this means. We all breathe the same air. Apart from the elements known to our science the air contains a great number of substances unknown to science, indefinable for it and inaccessible to its observation. But exact analysis is possible both of the air inhaled and of the air exhaled. This exact analysis shows that although the air inhaled by different people is exactly the same, the air exhaled is quite different. Let us suppose that the air we breathe is composed of twenty different elements unknown to our science. A certain number of these elements are absorbed by every man when he breathes. Let us suppose that five of these elements are always absorbed. Consequently the air exhaled by every man is composed of fifteen elements; five of them have gone to feeding the organism. But some people exhale not fifteen but only ten elements, that is to say, they absorb five elements more. These five elements are higher 'hydrogens.' These higher 'hydrogens' are present in every small particle of air 'we inhale. By inhaling air we introduce these higher 'hydrogens' into ourselves, but if our organism does not know how to extract them out of the particles of air, and retain them, they are exhaled back into the air. If the organism is able to extract and retain them, they remain in it. In this way we all breathe the same air but we extract different substances from it. Some extract more, others less.
"In order to extract more, it is necessary to have in our organism a certain quantity of corresponding fine substances. Then the fine substances contained in the organism act like a magnet on the fine substances contained in the inhaled air. We come again to the old alchemical law: 'In order to make gold, it is first of all necessary to have a certain quantity of real gold.' 'If no gold whatever is possessed, there is no means whatever of making it.' "The whole of alchemy is nothing but an allegorical description of the human factory and its work of transforming base metals (coarse substances) into precious ones (fine substances)."

Point wise claims -
1 - There are many substances in air unknown to our science
2 - These substances cannot be defined or observed by science
3 - But even though science cannot observe these substances, an exact analysis of inhaled and exhaled air can be done
4 - This analysis shows that air exhaled by different people is different
5 - Which basically corresponds to the organism's ability to extract these substances/hydrogens out of the particles of air and retain them
6 - In order to extract these substances out of air, an organism must have a certain quantity of corresponding (same?) fine substances first which then act as a magnet on the fine substances contained in the inhaled air

For Points 1-4, how did Gurdjieff analyse the composition of the inhaled/exhaled air if the substances he is testing for are unobservable by science as he himself claims? What methods did he use if there were no scientific methods in his time to do this? How do you make observations and do an exact analysis of something that is supposedly unobservable to, let's say, chemical sciences?

For Point 6, from basic biology, respiratory exchange of gases in the lungs takes place due to diffusion in which transport is driven by a concentration gradient. Gas molecules move from a region of high concentration to a region of low concentration. Blood that is low in oxygen concentration and high in carbon dioxide concentration undergoes gas exchange with air in the lungs. The air in the lungs has a higher concentration of oxygen than that of oxygen-depleted blood and a lower concentration of carbon dioxide. This concentration gradient allows for gas exchange during respiration.

The exchange of gases doesn't occur due to magnetic attraction by corresponding gases in an organism. Oxygen does not magnetically attract oxygen as Gurdjieff perhaps believed but it is in fact the lack of oxygen in the blood that causes oxygen from the air to cross into the blood where it is bound to haemoglobin and again released to the tissues because they lack oxygen.

Once Gurdjieff says that the hydrogens cannot be tested by science but then goes ahead and says that an exact analysis is possible (assuming using some as yet unknown method), it is an obviously false claim, not to say anything about the process of exchange of gases in respiration.

It would be an informative exercise to post many more such claims and interrogate them with a critical eye so as to separate the truth from obfuscation and perhaps in the worst case scenario - lies.

Your thoughts/suggestions are appreciated.
 

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