Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

[luc]

7 mins of a Peterson talk that I found very interesting in how it intersects with our own philosophy. Remarkable really.

Yeah, the whole part VII of his bible series is just amazing. He outlines so many concepts of the Work, but getting at it from a more mainstream perspective. Remarkable indeed and so useful because he clearly has such great talent and experience expressing these ideas verbally in a forceful, heart-felt and engaging way. You can watch the whole thing here:

https://youtu.be/6gFjB9FTN58

 

[mkrnhr]

Thanks luc for the new link. I'd watched the out-of-synch video and it was a little frustrating.

 

[Joe]

7 mins of a Peterson talk that I found very interesting in how it intersects with our own philosophy. Remarkable really.

Watched this again and a question came up around what he says that I think might benefit from clarification. When he says "aim at the highest possible good that you can conceptualize", what does he mean by that? What examples could he, or could we give, from our own perspective or the perspective of the ordinary person the street?

 

[luc]

Watched this again and a question came up around what he says that I think might benefit from clarification. When he says "aim at the highest possible good that you can conceptualize", what does he mean by that? What examples could he, or could we give, from our own perspective or the perspective of the ordinary person the street?

The way I understand it is that these "highest aims one can conceptualize" change over time - you think of something, maybe a moral concept, maybe something more practical and immediate like solving a certain problem in your life or making some difficult changes, and then, once you got the ball rolling, different aims may present themselves. One thing I think is clear: the "highest possible aim" can only be a "good" one, or STO-aligned or however you want to call it. Otherwise there can't be real meaning.

The highest possible aim I can think of right now is to live a life that is 100% productive and conscious, in a STO sense. That entails everything I can think of, and it's so high an aim that it's probably unreachable. But every little progress counts and has meaning. And what exactly that means concretely is always subject to change. Anyway, that's what came to mind for me.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

7 mins of a Peterson talk that I found very interesting in how it intersects with our own philosophy. Remarkable really.

Watched this again and a question came up around what he says that I think might benefit from clarification. When he says "aim at the highest possible good that you can conceptualize", what does he mean by that? What examples could he, or could we give, from our own perspective or the perspective of the ordinary person the street?

I'll give an answer I think Petersen might give, on the level of the person on the street: "The highest possible good I can think of is to act today and in the future in a manner that is best for my family - for their health, sanity, longevity, and stability." Keeping the well-being of your family in mind promotes responsibility for self and others, implies working on relationships, and involves sacrifice. Starting "at home" also has the effect of bringing order to a unit (family) embedded in wider society.

 

[Joe]

7 mins of a Peterson talk that I found very interesting in how it intersects with our own philosophy. Remarkable really.

Watched this again and a question came up around what he says that I think might benefit from clarification. When he says "aim at the highest possible good that you can conceptualize", what does he mean by that? What examples could he, or could we give, from our own perspective or the perspective of the ordinary person the street?

I'll give an answer I think Petersen might give, on the level of the person on the street: "The highest possible good I can think of is to act today and in the future in a manner that is best for my family - for their health, sanity, longevity, and stability." Keeping the well-being of your family in mind promotes responsibility for self and others, implies working on relationships, and involves sacrifice. Starting "at home" also has the effect of bringing order to a unit (family) embedded in wider society.

Right, so in that sense when he says that if you have an aim that everything you do in daily life can be imbued with meaning, the things you do every day are the aim in themselves, in effect.

 

[bjorb]

7 mins of a Peterson talk that I found very interesting in how it intersects with our own philosophy. Remarkable really.

Watched this again and a question came up around what he says that I think might benefit from clarification. When he says "aim at the highest possible good that you can conceptualize", what does he mean by that? What examples could he, or could we give, from our own perspective or the perspective of the ordinary person the street?

I think of what I have saw of Peterson, Approaching Infinity comes pretty close.

My short answer to that would be: Learning how to care and look after each other with the best of our ability and putting this into practice.


I guess a strictly and short esoteric answer to this =

Aiming at the highest possible good that you can be conceptualize is prone to either subjective or objectivity.

It can be either in accordance with something mechanical (Self Importance/Ego), or in accordance with conscience/knowledge. Or of course something in between.

Since we aim higher, perhaps the following quote of Carl Jung is fitting:

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.

Which is ongoing struggle and learning process.


I think that getting a more practical answer to this is by discovering how a STO family/society would look like. And how in that framework, people would function within it with meaning, and by that with the ability to learn lessons. And through that in accordance with the Universe.

 

[T.C.]

FWIW, Peterson's emphasis on having an aim is also founded on scientific data taken from such studies such as the basketball experiment:

https://youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo?ecver=2

The upshot being, you only see what you're aiming at. The implication being, the world presents to you what is relevant to your aim. You don't see what you're not aiming at. What you're able to notice is dependent on what you want. If you decide upon an aim, everything that is genuinely irrelevant (because reality is so complex) is excluded from your awareness.

For me, when he says "aim at the highest good you can conceive of", he means just that. Whatever you can imagine would be best for you (and your family, and your town, and humanity; today, tomorrow, next week, next month, forever), decide unequivocally that that is what you are going to dedicate your life to... and if you do that, everything will work out for the best, whether the result is what you thought would happen or not.

 

[kenlee]

My short answer to that would be: Learning how to care and look after each other with the best of our ability and putting this into practice.


I guess a strictly and short esoteric answer to this =

Aiming at the highest possible good that you can be conceptualize is prone to either subjective or objectivity.

It can be either in accordance with something mechanical (Self Importance/Ego), or in accordance with conscience/knowledge. Or of course something in between.

Yeah, I think what you said above is a good explanation. Maurice Nicholl in one of his books spoke of there being 'the truth' and there also being the 'good of the truth'. He also spoke about 'missing the mark.' This might apply to not understanding what the 'good of the truth' really means. As I understand it they both come together with right living. I think he also spoke about the 'transformation of the mind' and this might relate to Petersons "aim at the highest possible good that you can conceptualize." Conceptualization in this context might have more to do with one's (ongoing) deeper and deeper understanding of what transformation of the mind means.

Or perhaps its all about harmonizing the everyday mundane day to day factual truth with the 'greater good' that is, having the 'ableness' to put your neighbor first and yourself last (within the context of proper external consideration) thru deeper understanding and living it proper at the mundane level. Not an easy task for sure. Just some thoughts fwiw!

 

[Hindsight Man]

Here's an article by feminists about abusing their boyfriends -- http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have

'' According to a study of relationships that engage in nonreciprocal violence, a whopping 70% are perpetrated by women.''
In case you can't tell,they're bragging.

Edit: that article is from 2007

 

[luc]

Right, so in that sense when he says that if you have an aim that everything you do in daily life can be imbued with meaning, the things you do every day are the aim in themselves, in effect.

Yes, that is one part I think. But for your daily life activities to be imbued with meaning, they need some kind of direction - they need to be aligned with an aim. That could be something like "living a life in service to others" or something more concrete and immediate derived from it.

On a more practical level, I think Approaching Infinity and T.C. explained Peterson's suggestion well, something like: reduce unnecessary suffering, first in your immediate environment (family, relationship etc.), then, if you got good at it, you can extend it outwards, friends, community etc., and then even more so. While doing this, your actions can have ripple effects (or non-linear effects) on the whole world - so that's the way to save the world. Start with cleaning your room and all that.

I think at some point the order is not set in stone - you can work on your immediate environment and simultaneously try to do something on a larger scale, i.e. what we do here - sharing things on social media, writing articles etc. The two spheres can then influence each other so that we refine our understanding and our immediate aims.

 

[Timótheos]

On a more practical level, I think Approaching Infinity and T.C. explained Peterson's suggestion well, something like: reduce unnecessary suffering, first in your immediate environment (family, relationship etc.), then, if you got good at it, you can extend it outwards, friends, community etc., and then even more so. While doing this, your actions can have ripple effects (or non-linear effects) on the whole world - so that's the way to save the world. Start with cleaning your room and all that.

Yes, the way I remember Peterson describing it was - first, identify and do something that is good for yourself, but at the same time is also good for your family, and then it should also be good for your extended social environment (friends and co-workers), and it would then be good for your city, country, world, the universe, etc. Meaning, I think, that what one defines and acts upon as "good" must extend and be consistent through all levels of existence. Having an aim that fulfills all these criteria at the same time, ensures that one is not acting for solely selfish reasons, nor trying to enforce changes on society that ignores personal development.

To take the idea of "cleaning your room" as an example. One can start by cleaning and organizing their bedroom, and once this is accomplished and repeated over time, it can then be extended outwards by also helping to do the dishes for your family for example, a principle which then can then be applied to keeping your workspace and communal kitchen area at work orderly and clean, and then taking this idea further, one could also volunteer for community programs that pick up trash in your neighbourhood, and since it is not really feasible to expect one person to tidy up the entire planet, perhaps one could give financial aid to technology that reduces plastic in the ocean for example.

The key being that the overarching principle of "cleanliness and orderliness" is one example of an aim that is "good", not only for oneself but can be extended through every strata of life and into the world at large.

 

[Alada]

Right, so in that sense when he says that if you have an aim that everything you do in daily life can be imbued with meaning, the things you do every day are the aim in themselves, in effect.

Yes, that is one part I think. But for your daily life activities to be imbued with meaning, they need some kind of direction - they need to be aligned with an aim. That could be something like "living a life in service to others" or something more concrete and immediate derived from it.

Yep, that’s what’s important about the word 'can' in Joe’s quote. Things can have meaning if they are aligned with and aim/aims. What that highlights is the importance of bringing things to our conscious attention, that everything can have importance and meaning if it is set within the framework of an aim. So yes, from ‘cleaning your room’, to helping others ‘clean their rooms’ and/or working to ‘clean house’ in the world in general in some small way each day.

What that brings up then are thoughts around our living mechanically, or living with conscious intention/attention, also Castaneda’s descriptions of ‘impeccability’ comes to mind here too. The same act can have meaning for us or no meaning depending on what we bring to it, what the aim is.

So what is the highest possible aim then, to be conscious in all things. And the path toward it, bring conscious attention to the small things, and keep working on them and adding as we go. I’d love to be conscious in all things! But as has been said already it’s a long way off, getting back to working on what’s in front of us to do, working on relationships, family, the wider social connections in small ways can all add up. The point being to have a larger aim but not to overly fixate on it, realising that it may take many many years of slow and steady progress so better get down to working on the smaller scale on what is right there and available to us.

But that process can be a wonderful thing, not a ‘I can’t possibly reach or do that so why bother’ or ‘why do I keep failing’ kind of experience. To work on and improve one small thing, brings new meaning to it, which can then carry over into bringing new meaning to the next thing, and so on. The whole area of looking at the relationships between the thoughts of aim, meaning, consciousness, fulfillment, etc is fascinating. Great food for thought.

 

[Anthony]

7 mins of a Peterson talk that I found very interesting in how it intersects with our own philosophy. Remarkable really.

https://youtu.be/SmmPKLDX130

Indeed, and judging by the response Peterson gets, the people are starving for it.

 

[Oxajil]

Well... things are changing, and not for the better. Not sure if this was posted already, but the municipality of Amsterdam has started to use gender neutral language.

- Dear ladies and gentlemen will not be used in the beginning of a speech/talk. They'll use "Dear people of Amsterdam" instead.
- They're thinking about changing the opening of their letters (probably remove Mrs/Mr).
- A spokesperson said it's not a regulation: "We're not going to forbid anything, but we do want that officials will be thoughtful of their language use. Gender neutral alternatives can be found in the rainbow language guide. You can think about that when you give a speech or write a letter."

Amsterdam Gay Pride has also changed its name recently to Amsterdam Pride in order to include LGBTQ+ and others. (George Soros has been busy... His organisations are quite active in the Netherlands, and not too long ago they were actually hiring people for such purposes.)