Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

Timótheos said:
Recent interview with Jordan Peterson, 11 minutes long. This time by the CBC, Canada's notoriously left-leaning public broadcaster. Notable for couple reasons...

Although overall more civil in tone than with Cathy Newman, interviewer Wendy Mesley did bring out a couple of surprise photos from the bottom of her notes, in an obvious attempt to pigeonhole JP as a supporter of the "alt-right". He handled it well enough, but I noticed that he's looking rather tired and frustrated in this interview, having to defend himself over and over from the same type of lazy leftist characterization of him as a deliberate provocateur.

What stood out for me was his very real pessimism in regards to the future, even though he still remains cautiously optimistic. Also, his keen awareness of the potential for all out chaos if the two extremist sides of identity politics continue to polarize and grow, and that one small mistake on his part is all it would take for him to "drown". Even the word "prophet" came up in their conversation, which kind of ties in to our discussion earlier.

Interesting.


https://youtu.be/0BoOdMx_zDU

Yeah, good observations. Whether it be thru Cathy Newman or in a more subtle/deadly way through Wendy Mesley
or any other person following the same self serving agenda, the goal might be to make him lose his confidence and maybe say something that sparks something that falls on him like a ton of bricks. Note toward the end where Peterson begins to doubt himself (via self pity) and Wendy actually appears to feel sorry for him. Not good since this puts him in a weak light and makes the agenda ridden libtard movement that's working thru these individuals even stronger because in the end it's all about power and not truth.

What he should do IMO is form a small base of operations around him with strong people who have integrity who believe in him and back him up and where they 'spread the word' instead of him going out to these interviews with insincere people on their own turf who want to "debate" him. Instead, he should have people come to him and battle him if they want on his own turf with his 'homies' who reinforce him and keep him from experiencing this 'gaslighting' that ( it seems to me) he is experiencing at the end of the video. In this way he'll be able to control the 'centerline' of the encounter and not the other way around.

IMO, it might be that Jorden Peterson at this point does not understand psychopathy in the way Lobaczewski understood it in 'real time'. He may see it too much from a Jungian archetypical/metaphoric/philosophical perspective or something like that and not from a real threat that at this point he may not be able to see/ conceptualize properly due to beliefs of his own along these lines. Actually I could be wrong on this since I haven't studied Jung and the only videos I've seen of Peterson is on the forum (all of which I thought were really good). But if he is slowly being boiled like a frog to doubt himself, along with a lack of knowledge of psychopathy, then that'll lead to him making and succumbing to this mistake he is so worried about.
 
herondancer said:
etezete said:
you know what? I followed this whole Peterson/Newman thing, and the more I explore about him, the more I think that Peterson is the "Second Coming of Christ". Warrior of Truth. Simple as that. And I think he doesnt want to be that, but nevermind, he is.

That's a bit over the top I think, and Peterson would be the first one to tell you that. But I definitely think he falls into the category of help, as in "help is on the way".

He is someone who is broadcasting a grounded, life-affirming message, without a speck of sugar coating. Those who need it the most are eating it up. And even if they are the sort who would never pick up an esoteric book in their life, if they follow his advice, they will still be contributing to the positive balance in the world.

Go Jordan!

I was blown away reading this tonight from the introduction from his new book (quote below). I think it speaks to response-ability that we talk about here. It speaks to giving up all and everything (ie the first initiation of the Work). It speaks to reaching for the ‘X’ that Approaching Infinity has written about in ‘Stoicism and Paul: Making a Cosmology-Anthropology-Ethics for Today’ in terms of a higher meaning or view to pull us out of self-centered existence and in alignment with serving others. All of this through the lense of personal suffering and transformation, so that a person grows and develops as an individual so that they might be able to better serve humanity (ie service to others).

I found also that reading this also reminded me of the exchange (some quoted above) a few pages back in terms of JP being the ‘Second Coming.’ I don’t know if that is the case, yet he does seem to have gone through an initiation of sorts and he is now somewhat the ‘center of the world’ from his dreams that he so much wanted to avoid in the dream at the time.

So: no value, no meaning. Between value systems, however, there is the possibility of conflict. We are thus eternally caught between the most diamantine rock and the hardest of places: loss of group-centered belief renders life chaotic, miserable, intolerable; presence of group-centered belief makes conflict with other groups inevitable. In the West, we have been withdrawing from out tradition-, religion-, and even nation-centered cultures, partly to decrease the danger of group conflict. But we are increasingly falling prey to the desperation of meaninglessness, and that is no improvement at all.

While writing Maps of Meaning, I was (also) driven by the realization that we can no longer afford conflict – certainly not on the scale of the world conflagrations of the twentieth century. Our technologies of destruction have become too powerful. The potential consequences of war are literally apocalyptic. But we cannot simply abandon our system of values, our beliefs, our cultures either. I agonized over this apparently intractable problem for months. Was there a third way, invisible to me? I dreamt one night during this period that I was suspended in mid-air, clinging to the chandelier, many stories about the ground, directly under the dome of a massive cathedral. The people on the floor below were distant and tiny. There was a great expanse between me and any wall – and even the peak of the dome itself.

I have learned to pay attention to dreams, not least because of my training as a clinical psychologist. Dreams shed light on the dim places where reason itself has yet to voyage. I have studied Christianity a fair bit, too (more than other religious traditions, although I am always trying to redress this lack). Like others, therefore, I must and do draw more from what I do know than from what I do not. I knew that cathedrals were constructed in the shape of a cross, and that the point under the dome was the centre of the cross. I knew that the cross was simultaneously, the point of greatest suffering, the point of death and transformation, and the symbolic centre of the world. That was not somewhere I wanted to be. I managed to get down, out of the heights – out of the symbolic sky – back to safe, familiar, anonymous ground. I don’t know how. Then, still in my dream, I returned to my bedroom and my bed and tried to return to sleep and the peace of unconsciousness. As I relaxed, however, I could feel my body transported. A great wind was dissolving me, preparing to propel me back to the cathedral, to place me once again at the central point. There was no escape. I was a true nightmare. I forced myself awake. The curtains behind me were blowing in over my pillows. Half asleep, I looked at the foot of the bed. I saw the great cathedral doors. I shook myself completely awake and they disappeared.

My dream placed me at the centre of Being itself, and there was no escape. It took me months to understand what this meant. During this time, I came to a more complete, personal realization of what the great stories of the past continually insist upon: the centre is occupied by the individual. The centre is marked by the cross, as X marks the spot. Existence at that cross is suffering and transformation – and that fact, above all, needs to be voluntarily accepted. It is possible to transcend slavish adherence to the group and its doctrines and, simultaneously, to avoid the pitfalls of its opposite extreme, nihilism. It is possible, instead, to find sufficient meaning in individual consciousness and experience.

How could the world be freed from the terrible dilemma of conflict, on the one hand, and psychological and social dissolution, on the other? The answer was this: through the elevation and development of the individual, and through the willingness of everyone to shoulder the burden of Being and to take the heroic path. We must each adopt as much responsibility as possible for individual life, society and the world. We must each tell the truth and repair what is in disrepair and break down and recreate what is old and outdated. It is in this manner that we can and must reduce the suffering that poisons the world. It’s asking a lot. It’s asking for everything. But the alternative – the horror of authoritarian belief, the chaos of the collapse state, the tragic catastrophe of the unbridled natural world, the existential angst and weakness of the purposeless individual – is clearly worse.
 
kenlee said:
Yeah, good observations. Whether it be thru Cathy Newman or in a more subtle/deadly way through Wendy Mesley
or any other person following the same self serving agenda, the goal might be to make him lose his confidence and maybe say something that sparks something that falls on him like a ton of bricks. Note toward the end where Peterson begins to doubt himself (via self pity) and Wendy actually appears to feel sorry for him. Not good since this puts him in a weak light and makes the agenda ridden libtard movement that's working thru these individuals even stronger because in the end it's all about power and not truth.

What he should do IMO is form a small base of operations around him with strong people who have integrity who believe in him and back him up and where they 'spread the word' instead of him going out to these interviews with insincere people on their own turf who want to "debate" him. Instead, he should have people come to him and battle him if they want on his own turf with his 'homies' who reinforce him and keep him from experiencing this 'gaslighting' that ( it seems to me) he is experiencing at the end of the video. In this way he'll be able to control the 'centerline' of the encounter and not the other way around.

IMO, it might be that Jorden Peterson at this point does not understand psychopathy in the way Lobaczewski understood it in 'real time'. He may see it too much from a Jungian archetypical/metaphoric/philosophical perspective or something like that and not from a real threat that at this point he may not be able to see/ conceptualize properly due to beliefs of his own along these lines. Actually I could be wrong on this since I haven't studied Jung and the only videos I've seen of Peterson is on the forum (all of which I thought were really good). But if he is slowly being boiled like a frog to doubt himself, along with a lack of knowledge of psychopathy, then that'll lead to him making and succumbing to this mistake he is so worried about.

Very interesting comment. I think at this point he still tries to maximize his exposure by having a "I'll talk to anyone" attitude. And in a way, it works, see the Newman interview. But maybe this approach needs to change eventually, as you said. And I'm afraid as well that he underestimates psychopathy because of this Christian belief that "everyone has a spark of goodness in them" - which might even be true in a metaphysical sense, but not on a practical level. How often can he descend into the hellholes of the psychos without being affected?

Also, his "open arms" attitude has led to his association with many people in the "conservative online scene", which I think resulted in a very fragile balance that can be upset at any given time. What if some of them reveal a deeply pathological nature and entangle him in their webs?

What I find interesting as well is that he seemed so sad and pessimistic in that interview, now that he's at the height of his career/popularity. Most people probably would "fly high" in that situation, but it seems he has far too much character and clarity for that. He sees how we are all on the brink...

Another thing I noticed is that he misses the plot sometimes on Twitter lately, when he reposts anti-Russian and anti-Iranian BS. Then again, he's no god, and this goes to show that without a strong and solid network, even such an extraordinary human being as JP can get lost in the wilderness.
 
kenlee said:
Yeah, good observations. Whether it be thru Cathy Newman or in a more subtle/deadly way through Wendy Mesley
or any other person following the same self serving agenda, the goal might be to make him lose his confidence and maybe say something that sparks something that falls on him like a ton of bricks. Note toward the end where Peterson begins to doubt himself (via self pity) and Wendy actually appears to feel sorry for him. Not good since this puts him in a weak light and makes the agenda ridden libtard movement that's working thru these individuals even stronger because in the end it's all about power and not truth.

Yeah, but also notice at around 7.25 when he asks 'What does it say?' and moves closer to Mesley and points to his tweet and reads it out to her. You could notice Mesley wasn't expecting that and swallowed nervously there, so that was a pretty confident move by him. At the end, I agree, he wasn't sure whether that picture (with the Pepe flag) was a mistake or not, I suppose it can be difficult to prepare oneself in order to know how to answer and what to answer, but he took the time to think about it, and with certainty said 'No, I don't think I made a mistake.'

It's sad, because you can notice how much pressure there has been on him to make sure he doesn't make a mistake. Regarding Mesley, I'm pretty sure she was handed those pictures and was told what questions to ask. Probably wouldn't have taken the same approach if she were to interview Hillary 'So, you received a lot of money for your foundation, where did that money go to?' or if she had McCain in front of her 'So, what about this picture where you're standing with a bunch of jihadis?' But that's the world we live in, unfortunately. The Geenstijl interview is still the best recent interview out of all these three.
 
luc said:
Another thing I noticed is that he misses the plot sometimes on Twitter lately, when he reposts anti-Russian and anti-Iranian BS. Then again, he's no god, and this goes to show that without a strong and solid network, even such an extraordinary human being as JP can get lost in the wilderness.

It's no small thing unfortunately. Tis a rather large mote that a rather large portion of Western intelligentsia has in its eyes.

Here's a recent JP tweet:

Why is Jeremy Corbyn so willing to overlook human rights abuses in Iran? [Links to Independent (Lefty, MSM) article criticizing 'Lefty' Corbyn on British foreign policy!]

To which my immediate response is 'uhm, because he's more concerned with first getting his own house in order?'

Then he retweeted this from ABC news (US MSM):

Chaotic scene as Russian police arrest Vladimir Putin's political rival, Alexei Navalny, violently dragging him into a van. Thousands across the country protested the lack of competition in upcoming presidential elections.

...which has been seen more times in the West than the number of people in Russia - nationwide - who turned up for these anti-Putin protests. And to which my first reaction is 'er, Russian SJWs?'

Last week JP retweeted this:

Fantastic thread by @katestarbird illustrating deliberate actions by Russian trolling units to foment discord in the USA around controversial topics. They are using our strengths (free speech, new tech) against us.

Note that language... 'They... against us'...

@katestarbird, btw, is the 'researcher' who provided the Guardian with its 'evidence' that an army of Russian trolls - this network included - is behind the 'lies' about White Helmets: https://www.sott.net/article/372039-Manufacturing-Dissent-The-Guardian-sez-Russia-Behind-Online-Conspiracy-Theory-About-White-Helmets

I think, at root, that people like this are vested in maintaining the mythos of 'the West', above regard for truth.

Maybe.

Another angle I've been considering is that there's something fundamentally egocentric about Western beliefs - not that everyone everywhere isn't egocentric in one way or another, but that there's this comparatively pronounced streak in the West, particularly among its 'best'. So, in the last example above, what kind of mind believes that the world revolves around them to such an extent that 'the Russians' (or whatever external force) could ever have such control or influence over their public sphere? And how does that jive with taking personal responsibility and not blaming 'the Patriarchy'?!

I'm no shrink, but it strikes me as being pathologically self-referential.
 
Niall said:
luc said:
Another thing I noticed is that he misses the plot sometimes on Twitter lately, when he reposts anti-Russian and anti-Iranian BS. Then again, he's no god, and this goes to show that without a strong and solid network, even such an extraordinary human being as JP can get lost in the wilderness.

It's no small thing unfortunately. Tis a rather large mote that a rather large portion of Western intelligentsia has in its eyes.

Yeah, you'd think that, after being defamed as much as he has been, he'd understand the way the media spins things to suit an agenda. He's obviously not stupid. But since he doesn't, and since he's probably not being consciously deceptive, I'd agree that the 'pathologically self-referential' nature of Western beliefs has a lot to do with it.
 
Hesper said:
Yeah, you'd think that, after being defamed as much as he has been, he'd understand the way the media spins things to suit an agenda. He's obviously not stupid. But since he doesn't, and since he's probably not being consciously deceptive, I'd agree that the 'pathologically self-referential' nature of Western beliefs has a lot to do with it.

I think Peterson has spent most of his adult life focusing narrowly on the topics that he now talks about. That doesn't leave much time for critical thinking about other aspects of global geopolitical or historical and cultural dynamics, or, as others have already said, ideas such as ponerology.

The other aspect (linked to the above) is that we are fortunate (in theory) to have a philosophical underpinning that allows us to effectively view the entire world and the human race as a kind of planet and species apart, as if we were anthropologists from another planet. Pretty much no one else on this planet see things that way, and are instead very much identified with this planet as their home and invested in its survival (obviously). There is a rather wide gap between those two philosophical viewpoints.

From Peterson's POV where he is invested in arresting the slide towards a leftist radical utopia that would deconstruct the foundations (figuratively and then possibly literally) of Western civilization, anyone arguing against the West (regardless of their motivation) is aiding and abetting the leftist radicals. So even if he were to become convinced of the 'evil' of the West in all its exceptionalism, he would likely chose not to promote it as it would undercut one of his main points, take pride in your culture and do what you can do build it up.
 
I reckon if we ever get an interview with JP we'll come up with some points that'll give us a chance to say "gotcha!" to him. :halo:
 
etezete said:
you know what? I followed this whole Peterson/Newman thing, and the more I explore about him, the more I think that Peterson is the "Second Coming of Christ". Warrior of Truth. Simple as that. And I think he doesnt want to be that, but nevermind, he is.

I found an article on Twitter which also explores the idea above.

It's interesting how certain ideas seem to emerge and take shape non-locally, as in different people in different places coming up with the same idea, even though there appears to be no connection between the two.

On Jan 25th, etezete posted this, to which some people replied they had already considered, and 3 days before someone asked a similar question on a Christian Blog, which I'll repost below.

The writer does a pretty fair assessment of the JP phenomenon, albeit from a properly Christian perspective, and other than the very last sentence, I think he expresses the topic well.

https://www.christiantoday.com/amp/is-jordan-peterson-the-new-messiah/124312.htm

Is Jordan Peterson the new Messiah?

David Robertson Mon 22 Jan 2018 14:07 GMT

I'm not a big fan of self-help books. But in that I appear to be in a minority because they remain phenomenally popular, especially in airport bookshops. The latest in the genre comes from an unlikely source – a Canadian professor from the University of Toronto, clinical psychologist Dr Jordan Peterson.

Dr Peterson has gathered quite a following through his psychological analysis of narratives and myths – especially of the Bible. His lectures, which have received over 35 million views on YouTube, demonstrate a superb mind being able to communicate the most difficult ideas in a captivating and inspirational way.

But he really hit the headlines when in 2016 he refused to use gender-neutral pronouns at his University and opposed the infamous C-16 bill of the Canadian government that makes it a criminal offence to 'misgender' people. Instead of giving in, he made a stand and as such has become a love/hate figure.

Last week he was in the UK being interviewed on numerous media and giving sell-out lectures to enraptured audiences. As Douglas Murrayasked in The Spectator: 'Why are young Brits flocking to hear a psychology professor talk about morality?'


The devil

Jordan Peterson is not the devil. The cultural elites of the West regard him as though he were the anti-Christ. He is accused of being an alt-right, transphobic, racist, misogynistic Nazi apologist. The sad thing is that just making the accusation seems sufficient for some to regard it as true. But those of us who have actually read his work and viewed his lectures know that is it not true. His life seems to have been driven by a passion to understand and oppose extremist ideologies, whether of right or left. The fact that some on the alt-right speak of him approvingly, no more makes him a Nazi than Hitler approving of motorways makes road engineers Nazi sympathisers.


The interview

His interview with Cathy Newman of Channel 4 has become an online smash. It was an absolute train wreck (for her) and gives a fascinating insight, not only into Jordan Peterson but also into how too much of our media works today. Newman from the beginning sought to ridicule his position, portray him as alt-right and clearly struggled to listen and grasp what he was saying. Peterson on the other hand, calmly answered the accusations and even turned them on their head. It is a stunning interview. Kudos to Channel 4 for broadcasting a 29-minute interview that showed their star presenter in such a bad light.

However what was even more interesting was the reaction afterwards. The Channel 4 news team clearly had a contemptuous view of Peterson with its head of communications, Hayley Barlow, tweeting mockingly of him as 'lobster guy'. When their mockery backfired they tried a different tactic. Given the popularity of the interview (already viewed millions of times) it was inevitable in today's social media world that there were going to be abusive tweets. (I have a small Twitter following and yet I regularly get abuse and threats, so someone with Newman's and Peterson's followings will get even more.) When the inevitable happened Channel 4 tried to capitalise on it by putting out a press release stating that they had to call in a 'security specialist' – and the gratifying headlines followed. Of course as Peterson himself said, it is wrong to abuse or mock anyone online. But if there were serious threats, that is a criminal offence which should involve the police, not 'security specialists'.

We know where this is going. The narrative will change from Newman being a bully trying and failing to intimidate her interviewee, to being a victim and heroine for standing up to the patriarchy. The notion that a private school educated, Oxford graduate with a millionaire's salary should be presenting herself as an oppressed victim tells us a great deal about where the illogicality of identity politics has taken us.

The book

Peterson's12 Rules for Life is already a bestseller and deservedly so. Having spent the weekend reading it I found it challenging, stimulating and frustrating. It is a wonderful mix of psychology, theology, history, narrative and social philosophy from someone who is clearly influenced by Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Freud, Jung and above all, the Bible. Unlike most self-help books it deals with sin, suffering, morality, humanity and good and evil, with a depth that I did not expect. He deals with the gender confusion debate with great clarity and insight. The chapters on parenting, telling the truth, being precise in speech and why we shouldn't bother children when they are skateboarding, are superb. This is real. Authentic. And biblical. So is Peterson the great hope for Christians today?

The Messiah

Peterson is a superb communicator who speaks about sin, hope, and the Bible and espouses what many would regard as common sense Christian values. The left-behinds and the frustrated seem particularly drawn to his message of hope and healing. Some secularists think he is a Christian preacher who is seeking to smuggle in Christianity through the back door. But when asked in an interview in The National Post, 'Are you a Christian? Do you believe in God?' he responded, 'I think the proper response to that is No, but I'm afraid he might exist.' He is not a Christian but that does not mean that the Lord cannot use him to speak his truth into our culture.

Jordan Peterson is a sincere, intelligent, compassionate, human being who in his search for the truth sometimes gets closer than many professing Christians. Anyone who can write: 'I knew that the cross was simultaneously, the point of greatest suffering, the point of death and transformation, and the symbolic centre of the world' is not far from the Kingdom. But he is not the Messiah. He is not even a follower of the Messiah. He just needs the Messiah.

David Robertson is associate director of Solas CPC in Dundee and minister at St Peter's Free Church. Follow him on Twitter@TheWeeFlea
 
Joe said:
I reckon if we ever get an interview with JP we'll come up with some points that'll give us a chance to say "gotcha!" to him. :halo:

:lol:

Well, we've seen this again and again... Usually, the smartest people can be so sharp about one topic, but totally and utterly clueless about others.

That just seems to be how it works. There's too much to know.

And that's why a network is needed. If JP doesn't form one pretty quick, he's not gonna last long.

I just don't see enough people stepping up to the plate.

Well, that's my optimistic thought of the day! Carry on, then.
:whistle:
 
Joe said:
From Peterson's POV where he is invested in arresting the slide towards a leftist radical utopia that would deconstruct the foundations (figuratively and then possibly literally) of Western civilization, anyone arguing against the West (regardless of their motivation) is aiding and abetting the leftist radicals. So even if he were to become convinced of the 'evil' of the West in all its exceptionalism, he would likely chose not to promote it as it would undercut one of his main points, take pride in your culture and do what you can do build it up.

Trying to make Peterson's position as strong as I can, I think where he is coming from is something like this: Lefty radicals whine all the time about the patriarchy, evil conservatism etc. and want to be protected and sheltered forever. Instead, they should show some humility and gratitude for their culture and their freedoms. So: look at countries such as Iran and Russia - these are, no doubt, much more conservative/traditionalist (or "patriarchal" from a lefty perspective) than Western countries. If you are a feminist, there's something that's bad. But look at your own culture - where everything goes and feminism rules. What do you even complain about? And why do you embrace Muslim culture, which clearly runs against your Western feminism?

Or something like that... But still, it's a pity that he falls for this kind of propaganda. As Niall said, he should apply his own rules: clean your room first before you go out to change other countries. Really, this bullying of other countries and accusing them of "oppression" is just SJWism on a state level. JP should be able to make that connection ;)
 
Joe said:
I reckon if we ever get an interview with JP we'll come up with some points that'll give us a chance to say "gotcha!" to him. :halo:

One question I've always wanted to put to JP (wish I thought of this one when I saw him- ended up giving just a garden variety psychopath/ponerology question) was the idea that there could be "too much order". If order is the light, good, knowledge, how can there ever be too much of it? Maybe too much on a societal scale, since people of all stripes need lessons and a certain balance of order/chaos to attain it. But it seems like the goal of the work is to push all chaos out of our own psyches and our own human relationships. JP remarked before how amazing it is that an LED notice board could countdown the minutes until a bus shows up AND IT ACTUALLY SHOWS UP. We have order degrees of magnitude higher than many earlier human societies. But even those societies JP would say have had their struggles with "too much order" under tyrannical kings, brahim classes, etc.

Seems like there needs to be a distinction between order that is robust, and order that is fragile. Saudi Arabia is fragile order, Putin's Russia is robust order. Economic growth in the industrial age was robust, economic growth in the 2000's was fragile. Seems like the fragile forms of order are just temporary bandages to assuage chaos in their internal domains. This thinking of mine was inspired in part by Nassim Taleb's book Antifragile (VERY GOOD btw), which applies all sorts of mathematic and philosophical understandings related to fragility/robustness to complex systems like markets, political systems, the human body (he advocates ancestral diets and hates pharmaceuticals), social fads; even true scientific progress (when one reads the history) comes from methodical tinkering of enthusiasts, not large bureaucratic institutions "deciding" to invent things for the most part.
 
The subject of JP's understanding of psychopathy has come up in this thread and in the STO thread, too. As far as I'm concerned, he's familiar with the literature.

In the first video I ever saw of his, while I was researching the work of Carl Rogers, he brought up psychopathy, and that's what made him really 'ping' on my radar, because he demonstrated a very good knowledge of the psychopathic character. He said:

"My experience with people has been that... and this is another issue of instrumental use of language. You know, you say, "Well what are you using your language for?"

"Well, to get what you want.

"Well, that can be consciously manipulative. And maybe we'll say, well, that's what the psychopath is like, except the psychopath is not only consciously manipulative. He's also unconsciously manipulative because he's been practicing it for, like, three decades. So, all the little machines in his head are deceptive, too; and they run on automatic, so he'll just lie just to see if he can pull one over on you; because that demonstrates that not only is he smarter than you, but that you deserve to be victimised because you're such an idiot."

So maybe there's cognitive dissonance on the part of JP in terms of his understanding of psychopathy - which would mostly stem from his steadfast belief in the inherent good contained in any and every person. And then, that cognitive dissonance would obviously act as a barrier to his being able to extrapolate out to the concept of ponerogenesis and ponerisation on a macrosocial scale.
 
Scottie said:
Joe said:
I reckon if we ever get an interview with JP we'll come up with some points that'll give us a chance to say "gotcha!" to him. :halo:

:lol:

Well, we've seen this again and again... Usually, the smartest people can be so sharp about one topic, but totally and utterly clueless about others.

That just seems to be how it works. There's too much to know.

And that's why a network is needed. If JP doesn't form one pretty quick, he's not gonna last long.

I just don't see enough people stepping up to the plate.

Well, that's my optimistic thought of the day! Carry on, then.
:whistle:

:lol: That's it I think; there's too much to know. It is a little disappointing when someone so brilliant in many area doesn't recognize that that doesn't qualify them to be experts in all areas. I'm not saying he's claiming to be an expert in these other areas, I just think that someone who is so in the spotlight might be a little more reserved about things they are not well versed in. Or that he might have insight into his own lack of knowledge in certain areas. Doesn't take away from what he does bring to the table. IMO
 
On the idea of Peterson as the 2nd coming of 'Christ' or whatever, I think it's possible, depending on how you define 'christ'. If it's a guy with a beard and a sword coming down from the sky on a cloud and smiting all the unbelievers, then obviously that's not him. When asked in 1994 about Jesus, the Cs said this:

Q: (L) Did Jesus, during the course of his growing up years travel to other countries and study under other masters?
A: No.
Q: (L) Where did he receive his teaching or training?
A: Channeled to him.
Q: (L) Did he at any point in his life travel to India?
A: No.
Q: (L) Did he travel to Egypt and undergo an initiation in the Great Pyramid?
A: No.
Q: (L) He lived his entire life in Palestine?
A: Near. In that general area. The Bible is not entirely accurate.
Q: (L) When Jesus attended the marriage at Cana, whose wedding was it?
A: Did not happen.
Q: (L) Did Jesus feed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes?
A: No.
Q: (L) Are you saying that all the miracles of the Bible are myths?
A: Remember this is corrupted information altered after the fact for purposes of political and economic gain and control.
Q: (L) Tell us what Jesus really did.
A: He taught spiritual truths to those starving for them.

Even allowing for the still vague understanding we have of which people were used to manufacture the Jesus figure, that last one fits pretty well with the effect JP is having on many.
 
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