Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

Australian government institutionalizing child abuse and child gender experiments

Thanks for posting the talk.

After catching the professors name, John Whitehall (I'm glad he was afforded a place to talk), and noted this from about a years ago (with a number of other articles with him):

This is madness’: ‘Laughable’ gender politics hits our schools

A paediatrics professor is slamming a move to educate teachers about how to identify potential transgender students in their classrooms.

News Corp reports teachers in some New South Wales public and private schools are being taught by gender identity experts how to spot transgender signals in students as young as five.

Educators are reportedly being told to look out for key phrases including “I’m androgynous” and “I feel different”.

News Corp also reveals the number of children being referred by hospitals to gender dysphoria clinics has increased by over 200 per cent in three years.

Professor of paediatrics at Western Sydney University John Whitehall tells Chris Smith it’s “madness”.

“If it wasn’t so serious you’d have to laugh at it.

“The education department pays $700 for someone to come into the school to inform the boys and girls that they don’t really exist. That they’re on a gender fluid rainbow somewhere in between.”

Professor Whitehall says these programs are designed in “the name of stopping bullying” but are doing the opposite.

{The full audio interview is here}

“In reality, there are many ways to bully children.

“I think this is the greatest, most cruel, most dangerous form of bullying I could possibly imagine.”

The paediatrics professor says this isn’t where the issue starts and ends, claiming teachers are also being directed by the NSW Department of Education to report parents who don’t back their child’s want to transition.

“If a child appeared to be gender confused and parents weren’t to go along with that, they (teachers) were then obliged to basically contact the authorities,” Mr Whitehall says.

Chris Smith says children are too young to “even understand the concept” of being transgender and should be left to making that decision later in life.

“It is fine for adults to decide they’re transgender. We’ve been on the planet long enough to make decisions like that ourselves.

“But children, they’re too young to even understand the concept.”

You know, one lives their whole life with a lot of strange goings-on, and then something comes out from under a rock that is completely bizarre and it is not understandable at first, ignored even, and then you see these ideas have traction having been swept up and seemingly embraced within the public discourse, including lawmakers.

I don't really know what to say, it's a great sadness tinged with anger at the audaciousness that forces these ideas on children. There is sorrow that the nurses, teachers and physicians must follow these ponerogenic dictates if they don't believe, or if they do believe, what rational could be at play in their heads and, what more of it will develop. Mostly, though, notwithstanding being a grandparent today, yet being a parent with these types of things coming at you and your family - these predatory ideas fixed upon ones children is just simple unconscionable.

It is enough to make one weep.
 
That's kind of an interesting idea. I really liked The Distributist's take on the debate here.
I'll try and summarize it below:

In the debate Zizek asks where the Marxists were, even he by his own qualifications wasn't really much of a Marxist. It seems like once Peterson and Zizek really started talking Marx seemed to be the one thing missing from the discussion. Looking at all the self-congratulatory Marxist leftists recounting what they perceive as some of Zizek's "gotcha" moments you'd think they'd have actually listened to what Zizek was actually saying. But it seems they just wanted to see JPB get put in his place. As TD points out though, the joke is largely on the leftists listening in, since Zizek isn't really in their corner.

TD's take on Zizek was that his affiliation could be more characterized as Reactionary rather than Marxist for the following reasons. He identifies a large number of problems with modernity, but also takes heavy issue with modern and postmodern ideas on how to confront those shortcomings, and has an understanding of human nature that does not at all lend itself to utopian visions. What was also revealing was Zizek's departure from Peterson's recommendation that the most competent people be in charge. In his opening lecture, Zizek remarks that historically it was seen as important to separate hierarchy from competency, so that the most competent person in charge would not always be the person on the top. Hereditary monarchies and extremely democratic collectives (eg, Athens) naturally allowed for this separation, but Republicanism and the later technocratic/meritocratic industrial state tended to give the most competent people all the power, which was seen as a bad thing. Gone from Zizek's opening lecture was the idea of freedom itself, which he characterized as the chief burden of modernity. Since all traditional institutions have had their teeth removed, people are forced to create/choose their own values and live up to them. Peterson is obviously a fan of this, in spite of the fact that a lot of people have trouble coming up with a way of life to suit them (in fact personally I find this charge kind of unfair). Traditionally such a pattern of living was handed down traditionally, and although JBP places value on tradition and not changing it for its own sake, the same can't really be said of the modern industrial state and its vassal market, which is by its nature disruptive and upends anything and everything if it means generating more profit or accruing more benefits to its oligarchs and stakeholders.

I think Caleb Maupin's talk here fills in some of the 'gap' between Peterson and Zizek.

He claims that the 'Cultural Marxism' JP and others hold up as 'the Left' is just one aspect of Marxism, an aspect the CIA and friends latched onto and inflated into the grotesque spectacle we see today:

 
Incidentally, my reaction to the crazy purple haired guy in Toronto who karate-kicked an anti-abortion protester (an event which was weirdly similar to this incident, both in circumstance and the physicality of the perpetrator), was NOT the same as this.

Speaking of which. Why would there be a publication ban on the details of his case?
 
'Social justice' campaigns and ideologies of the type that we have seen that supposedly are motivated by a desire to reduce divisions in society have actually increased division.

I think the article below written by VICE is a good example of that.

100 Ways White People Can Make Life Less Frustrating For People of Color

Just a few suggestions to start with.

As someone with very low tolerance for racist bullshit, I’ve managed to surround myself with white people who are cognizant of their privilege and strive to make the world a less terrifying and frustrating place for people of color. This means that I often deal with said white people asking me what they can actually do to affect change. So here, anxious allies of the world, are 100 simple ways to be the change. It's not nearly comprehensive, but it's somewhere to start. Go forth and disrupt our harmful racial paradigm!

1. Just because you can’t see racism around you doesn’t mean it's not happening. Trust people of color’s assessment of a situation.

2. Don’t assume that all people of color share the same views. We are not a monolith.

3. Don’t assume or guess people’s races. This is NOT a fun game for us.

4. If someone tells you they’re from Uganda, don’t say, “I went to Nigeria once!” Just, please.

5. Related: Don’t refer to Africa as a country. It's a continent and it's wildly varied. Yes. Take a moment.

6. Oh, and rest assured that literally no person of color ever wants you to get back from holiday, show off your tan and excitedly exclaim, “Look, I’m almost as dark as you!” Cease and desist.

7. Don’t assume that a person of color knows everything about their country of heritage. Do you know everything there is to know about America? Germany? Sweden? That’s what I thought.

8. Don’t assume we can run if we’re Black, do math if we’re Asian, have drinking problems if we’re indigenous…

9. Regard us as autonomous, unique individuals, not as representatives of our race.

10. Don’t make embarrassing jokes to try and be “down” with people of color. We’ll laugh at you, not with you.

11. Don’t rinse our culturally specific memes. They’re ours. Go enjoy that weird one about the plums.

12. If you’re at my house party, don’t turn off the Weeknd to put on Arctic Monkeys. (Okay this one is very specific but it happened to me once and I’m not over it. The audacity!)

13. Avoid phrases like “But I have a Black friend! I can’t be racist!” You know that’s BS as well as we do.

14. When you endlessly complain about how terrible white people are, you are being that terrible white person. Jeez.

15. Don’t say shit like, “I know what it's like to be a person of color...I’m a ginger!”

16. Don’t question someone's Blackness if they’re light-skinned. It's not your place. Other Black people can make sure that light-skinned Black people are cognizant of their privilege.

17. Never try and tell a person of color what is or isn't racist.

18. When you find instances of racist bullshit online, please don’t send it to us. We know racism exists, thanks.

19. Read something already written about it rather than coming to your friends/acquaintances of color looking for hot takes on anything and everything appropriative a Kardashian/Miley Cyrus does. We don’t wanna think about this shit 24/7!

20. Understand that some days are even more mentally exhausting for people of color thanks to the news cycle. Try not to badger us for our opinions on the latest atrocity that has occurred. Leave us to grieve.

21. But when we do have something to say about it, listen.

22. Share articles relating to the everyday experiences of race and racism written by people of color.

23. But don’t be that person who is weird and sycophantic and loves to demonstrate their wokeness constantly to the people of color around them. Be thoughtful.

24. Read books by people of color. I recommend Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde, The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander and literally everything that Junot Diaz writes for great insights into Blackness.

25. Watch shows that are created by people of color i.e. Atlanta or Insecure. (Seriously, if you haven’t seen Atlanta, you need to watch it. Now.)

26. Have a critical eye when watching TV and movies. How are they portraying people of color and why? What purpose does it serve?

27. If you go to an art gallery, notice how many works are by people of color. If it's lacking, make some noise, send an email, query the curator. White people shouldn’t have a monopoly on what can be considered art.

28. If a character you assumed was white in a book is portrayed by an actor of color in the movie, embrace it. Whiteness is not the default.

29. Support plays written by and acted in by people of color. The world of theater is overwhelmingly white.

30. Refuse to go to club nights or drag shows or burlesque nights that use culturally appropriative acts.

31. If you have kids, buy them dolls of color and books with characters of color.

32. Support crowdfunding campaigns for cultural products created by people of color if you can.

33. Donate money to grassroots movements around you that are run by and support people of color.

34. Support small businesses owned by people of color.

35. If you’re upper or middle class try to avoid moving into an area that has historically been populated by low-income people of color. Gentrification tears communities apart.

36. Don’t assume people of color can’t speak English.

37. But also be patient if our English isn't perfect. Are you bi/tri/multi-lingual? Probably not. It's hard.

38. In general, just don’t assume we want to be white or want to assimilate. And don’t pressure us to do so.

39. Recognize that you can’t assume someone’s religion based on how they look. Not all South Asians and Middle Eastern people are Muslims, not all Black people are Christian, not all East Asian people are Buddhist. You get the idea.

40. Remember that not all people of color are straight.

41. Remember that people of color are not inherently more homophobic than white people.

42. People can be Black and gay and disabled and trans and middle class. Blackness is expansive. It doesn’t look one way. Keep this in mind.

43. When we talk about race, we’re not just talking about men! Repeat after me: Intersections of race and gender exist.

44. Remember that it is Black women and Native women and mixed race women who are most likely to be raped in their lifetimes in America. You cannot be an advocate against sexual violence without considering the impact of race.

45. Don’t ask Black women if it’s our “real hair.” And don’t judge Black women for wearing wigs or weaves or having relaxers.

46. Don’t touch our fucking hair.

47. If you have a Black girlfriend, please make sure that your shower is always adequately stocked with conditioner. Never that 2-in-1 stuff!!! We beg you.

48. Never try and pull any uninvited “race play” shit in the bedroom. Seriously, what the fuck?

49. Actively try to identify and unsubscribe from orientalist tropes i.e. believing that East Asian women are naturally more submissive or docile. People of color are people, not characters.

50. If you call a woman of color “exotic,” you deserve to stub your toe every day for a year. Do. Not. Do. This.

51. Also, saying “I've never fucked a Black/Asian/Native etc. person” to someone you’re trying to hook up with is a one way ticket to hell.

52. If you have such fetishistic thoughts, just don’t even bother coming near a person of color.

53. Remember that having mixed race children is not a cure for racism or a way to live out weird racial fantasies.

54. If you’re trying to start a mixed raced family, sit down and deeply interrogate your intentions.

55. If you do have mixed race children, make sure that they have access to people who look like them and who understand their experiences.

56. If you have a partner of color or children of color, trust and believe that you can still be racist. You’re not exempt. If anything, you have even more of a duty to examine your behavior for the benefit of your loved ones.

57. Take your racist family members to task for the shit they say over the dinner table or via social media.

58. Confront your colleagues who say racist shit unchecked at work.

59. Look around your workplace—are the only people of color cleaners or assistants? What can you do to change that? (The answer is almost never “nothing.”)

60. If someone asks you to fill a role that you think a person of color would be better suited for, recommend a talented person of color who you know and forego the position yourself.

61. Don’t make us be the de facto diversity guy at work. Or at least pay us extra to do the labor of diversifying the workplace.

62. Refuse to speak on an all-white panel. Regardless of the topic.

63. If there are only a couple of people of color in your seminar, don’t weirdly stare at them when the lecturer poses questions about race and expect them to answer everything.

64. If you’re in charge of making curricula, make sure there is work by people of color, especially women of color, on the reading list. And not just in the weeks dedicated to race.

65. Commission people of color to make work about race.

66. Commission people of color to make work that has nothing to do with race.

67. Don’t say things like “there are two sides to every story!” or play devil’s advocate when it comes to conversations about race.

68. In those situations, just listen.

69. It’s never useful to say stuff like, “But what about the white working class!!!” Have you thought about non-white working class people’s needs?

70. Don’t? Vote? For? Racist? Politicians? Can’t believe I need to say this one but it seems like possibly, maybe, some of y’all did not get this memo.

71. Research your candidates. Who has progressive policies that won’t needlessly criminalize people of color? Vote for them.

72. Remember that Black women are not here to save you from yourselves. You’ve gotta put in the work, too.

73. Be cognizant of how your whiteness could be weaponized against Black people. i.e. white women, don’t play into stereotypes about Black men being inherently threatening to you. It gets Black men killed. See: Emmett Till.

74. Use your white privilege to be on the frontline between people of color and the police at protests. You’re at much less risk than us.

75. Record police encounters you see involving Black people.

76. Share alerts when ICE is planning a raid.

77. Stand up to Islamophobia wherever you see it.

78. If you have ever thought a phrase like “Black lives matter” is too assertive, consider why you’re so uncomfortable with Black people standing up for our humanity.

79. Listen when Black people say, “I’m not comfortable in this situation.” You’ve seen Get Out, haven’t you?

80. If you haven’t seen Get Out, watch Get Out. Understand that the everyday horror is real.

81. Question whether you have double standards when it comes to drugs. Do you think it’s cool when white weed entrepreneurs make tons of money but think that Black people who are found to have traces of marijuana in their systems deserve to be thrown in prison?

82. Don’t have dreadlocks if you’re not Black, just don’t. Beyond being offensive, it’s just not suited to your hair type. Do literally anything else with your hair.

83. Don’t refer to things as your “spirit animal” if you’re not Native. There are other ways to express affinity with something.

84. Do not compare the exploitation of animals to racism. Ever. I’m deadly serious.

85. I can’t believe I even need to say this in 2018 but here we go: Don’t wear Blackface.

86. Don’t even think about saying the N word. Even if you’re alone. Even if you’re listening to rap. Even if you’re alone and listening to rap.

87. Similarly, don’t use the word “g*psy” or “p*ki” or “r*dskin” or any other racial slur. Even if you’re repeating what someone else said or reading from a text.

88. That includes the word “colored.” “Person of color” and “colored” are not the same. Trust me.

89. Understand that America has what it has because it stole land from indigenous people and stole people from Africa.

90. Care about race on the 364 days that aren’t Martin Luther King Jr. day.

91. Also, don’t whitewash his legacy and use it to argue that Black people should just take what they’re given lying down.

92.Think about how race is operating even when people of color aren’t around. Be cognizant of it wherever you are, whichever situation you’re in. People of color have to, so should you.

93. Remember that your queerness/womanhood/transness/class background/disability doesn’t exclude you from white privilege.

94. Make your feminism useful to all women rather than calling yourself an ‘intersectional feminist’. Show, don’t tell.

95. Don’t assume, full stop, that you can understand what it's like to experience racism. You can’t. That’s the whole point.

96. Understand that nothing in your life has been untouched by your whiteness. Everything you have would have been harder to come by if you had not been born white.

97. Be grateful for the lesson when you’re called out on racism, getting defensive won’t help.

98. Move past your white guilt. Guilt is an unproductive emotion. Don’t sit there mired in woe, just be better.

99. Recognize that fighting racism isn't about you, it's not about your feelings; it's about liberating people of color from a world that tries to crush us at every turn.

100. And remember: Being an ally is a verb, not a noun. You can’t just magically be an ally to people of color because you say you’re one, it's something that you must continually work on.
 
That line of argumentation brings a lot of subjective clues on personal bias and inferiority complex. It is not only about ones race. If one would change the stereotype to reflect any personal characteristic stemming from societal, ideologic or even systemic / hierarchical differences in an environment defined by violence, intolerance and ignorance, one would probably agree that the list is a crude template for justifying subjective anger. In my opinion people accept classification of things but reject being Individually subjected to classification of beings although people aggregate naturally and accept hierarchical systems of cohabitation and interaction. IMO, ones sense of fragility in isolation is not affected by existence in minority, but by the way the majority exercises the power.
 
bjorn, that made me sick in the stomach ...

Yes sorry, same here. 😥 Thought it should make people feel Woke. 😕

This is actually the kind of stuff that breeds racism. Racism is a feeling of superiority, and this list is so condescending towards white people.

Though I found the following on this list kind of funny:

45. Don’t ask Black women if it’s our “real hair.” And don’t judge Black women for wearing wigs or weaves or having relaxers.

46. Don’t touch our -flicking-g hair.

47. If you have a Black girlfriend, please make sure that your shower is always adequately stocked with conditioner. Never that 2-in-1 stuff!!! We beg you.

Right… so,

Don't touch my hair! Don't ask questions about my hair! Don't bother if it's my real hair! Buy the correct conditioner for my hair!
 
12. If you’re at my house party, [...]

I wouldn't worry about it.

53. Remember that having mixed race children is not a cure for racism or a way to live out weird racial fantasies.

54. If you’re trying to start a mixed raced family, sit down and deeply interrogate your intentions.

55. If you do have mixed race children, make sure that they have access to people who look like them and who understand their experiences.

How dare you? Keep your vile racist rhetoric to your opinion columns and out of other people's love lives and families. The fact that this self-entitled creep believes she has the moral right to dictate such things is revolting. Frankly, anybody who places skin color and personal political touchstones above the importance and power of familial bonds has clearly never known nor understands love.

Hmm...

I guess that would be my "Hot take" on the matter.

Yes, that list from Vice was a good example of the divisive nature of the regressive Left in action.
 
Peterson just posted an interview with Milo Yiannopoulos. I'm halfway through and so far they are focusing on Milo's rise and downfall as well as his sexual abuse as a teenager. It is interesting to see Peterson dealing with Milo's confrontational style, including his assertion that nothing really bad happened to Peterson so far and that he is just being allowed to rise so that he can be taken down, which Milo states as a certainty.

 
Peterson just posted an interview with Milo Yiannopoulos. I'm halfway through and so far they are focusing on Milo's rise and downfall as well as his sexual abuse as a teenager. It is interesting to see Peterson dealing with Milo's confrontational style, including his assertion that nothing really bad happened to Peterson so far and that he is just being allowed to rise so that he can be taken down, which Milo states as a certainty.


What an amazing interview. I've heard his name but know nothing about Milo. He is a powerhouse and so articulate. I like him. Jordan took a fair bit of lip from him ( in a nice way). I'd very much like to see their next exchange. Anyone have any opinions on whether I should buy his book-. The lavender mafia?
 
Regarding Slavoj Žižek, I found this little video by him very insightful - great points about postmodern totalitarianism and the consequences:

After first catching Žižek in conversation with Peterson, and at that time it appeared to me that they were much more the same than different, when Žižek here starts on about growing up in Yugoslavia among groups - joking around constantly and why. This is near identical to what Peterson describes of his own life growing up in Northern Alberta - who could joke the most etc.

Žižek's point about Indians is spot on, the elders I know scoff at being called anything other. There is an example here of these well-intentioned white guys dedicating a small monument in recognition of the local tribe whereby they can't bring themselves to write the word indian on it. When chastised by the elders, they said we can't call you that, it is Canada, not India (just as Žižek describes). This is also what Russel Means said, too.

Funny stuff (and sad) that Žižek brings up re Tobacco.

Thanks for sharing this!
 
Just finished the Milo interview and oh man... maybe it’s me but I couldn’t escape noticing how much of an egocentric man he is.

He obviously feels betrayed and so condemned everyone to the same fate he had in the conservative circles. Claims that no one in the world is as good as he was for the movement, nor ever will be. He seems to have this special, grand and unique vision of himself. “I got Donald Trump elected..”

And not sure, but doesn’t seem very self aware, despite having such an apparently precise description of himself at the beginning. When pressed for answers he avoided questions or gave somewhat conflicting responses.

Maybe I have to watch more of his stuff, but it didn’t make me curious or interested in what he had to say.

My two cents
 
And not sure, but doesn’t seem very self aware, despite having such an apparently precise description of himself at the beginning. When pressed for answers he avoided questions or gave somewhat conflicting responses.

Maybe I have to watch more of his stuff, but it didn’t make me curious or interested in what he had to say.

I had similar observations. After watching 20 minutes Milo has consentrated lot to himself and how special he is (and several times interrupts when Peterson says or asks something).

When Milo describes his own personality (16:30) Peterson comments: "That seems to be the relatively rare combination of extreme extraversion and very low neuroticism, that's not the same as sociopathy". Which sounds like a polite way to say that Milo is more at the character disturbed end of the spectrum.

I'm not too familiar with Milo's work, but on a bigger picture (and through much more important topic of free speech) it's good that Peterson gave him opportunity to speak - and this was the reason for the whole interview I think.
 
After first catching Žižek in conversation with Peterson, and at that time it appeared to me that they were much more the same than different, when Žižek here starts on about growing up in Yugoslavia among groups - joking around constantly and why. This is near identical to what Peterson describes of his own life growing up in Northern Alberta - who could joke the most etc.

Žižek's point about Indians is spot on, the elders I know scoff at being called anything other. There is an example here of these well-intentioned white guys dedicating a small monument in recognition of the local tribe whereby they can't bring themselves to write the word indian on it. When chastised by the elders, they said we can't call you that, it is Canada, not India (just as Žižek describes). This is also what Russel Means said, too.

Funny stuff (and sad) that Žižek brings up re Tobacco.

Thanks for sharing this!

Yes, I think there's lots of truth in his discussion of "the art of making offensive jokes" that can actually bridge the gap between groups and cultures. I found it chilling when he mentioned how just as the whole Bosnia/Serbia/Croatia thing exploded in the 90ies, the dirty jokes about each other (in the company of each other) that were common before immediately stopped!

But for me, the most interesting point was at the very beginning: about postmodern, antiauthoritarian education. When your dad is old-school and expects you to do certain things, period, he might tell you "Go and mow the lawn!". If you you protest, he just says "Go do it, period" and you grudgingly comply (and might learn something).

If you have an anti-authoritarian dad (like many of us did I suppose), he might ask instead "do you want to mow the lawn?" - or "would you like mowing the lawn?" Žižek makes the great point that this way, daddy forces you not only to mow the lawn, but he forces you to LIKE it, to WANT it! It's so cruel when you think about it. Of course you don't like doing chores as a child! But you also want to please daddy - so you are forced to like something you don't like, instead of just doing something you don't like. It's a dirty violation of free will, an invasion into your private thoughts. Now imagine being in that situation again and again for your whole childhood - talk about trauma!
 

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