karma from progenitors?

[Kisito]

What an extremely interesting thread! Thanks, obyvatel, for bringing it to my attention :).

To me it makes sense that a thing or person can be seen as an individual from one perspective or as part of a larger whole if looked at from a different perspective. Like a cell can be looked at in isolation but it can also be seen as part of an organ which can be looked at in isolation. But the organ can also be looked at as part of the person. So if something affects the cell it will have an impact on the cell but also on the organ and also on the person. Similarly it makes sense to me that we as individuals are part of a larger unit, a family or a country or a planet or a galaxy, etc. This example covers the concept that we're part of a greater whole across space. But according to the Cs we're suffering from an illusion of both space and time and the results of past-life-therapy ands spirit-release-therapy suggest that this being part of a greater whole also extends forwards and backwards in time.

I remember one time I was talking about this with my yogi. He told me that in the yogic understanding we inherit both the karma from previous lives (the soul line) and also the karma through our family (the blood line). So as I understand it, there has to some sort of fit between the two types of karma for the incarnation to take place - I guess you could call in morphogenetic resonance of the fields of the soul and the genes . He also said that whatever happens to one member of the family will have an effect on the karma of the entire family - in real time, so to speak. It's pretty obvious in the case where the father is an alcoholic and comes home and beats the mother. To the child this will obviously have a psychological impact. But it could also be the case that the child is now an adult and does not have any interaction with the parents. Even here, the actions of the parents will have a karmic effect on the adult child, just a what happens to one cell within an organ can effect what happens to another cell within the same organ. He did mention, however, that this effect is stronger the closer you are in physical proximity of one another. For instance, in India, where it's traditionally common for several generations to live together under one roof, the effect will be stronger whereas in modern societies where people move away from home and live by themselves the real time parental karma effect is reduced. I have been told that women who live together will tend to have synchronized menstruation cycles which points to an energy blend and alignment that increases with physical proximity. Extending this to the energy/emotional/karmic body could explain this effect.

Patrick Rodriguez who does SRT explained his understanding of karma on the SOTT Radio show. As I recall it, he said that karma was an energetic knot (and if emotions carry energy, it ties in nicely with the Cs linking karma to emotions) and once you untie the knot the karma is gone. If we look at karma effects affecting an entire family, then untying a karmic knot for one person would also benefit the entire lineage. I see this as somewhat similar to the case where releasing a spirit attachment from a previous life will have an energetic/emotional/karmic effect in this life. Furthermore, if we accept the premise that space and time are 3D illusions that we just have a hard time looking through, then it also makes sense that what happens in my subjective current time could effect my grandfather in my subjective past, if all there is is in fact just one big now.

The work of Gabor Maté in "When the Body Says No" is also highly linked to this topic, as I see it. I've unsuccessfully been trying to find the passage where describes a study to look at the ability to predict susceptibility to a certain decease in adult people based on the emotional states of their mothers when the mothers were infants. It turned out that there was a strong correlation. But what's more interesting is the fact just knowing about the mother's emotional state before the child was born was statistically significant in predicting whether or not a person would get the disease. I might be mixing up some of the particulars of the case but the point I'm trying to make is that there is empirical evidence of an intergenerational effect on the health of the child based on emotional factors that were registered before the child was even conceived.

In the field of astrology it's also interesting to look at horoscopes of siblings or parents, children and grand children. It's often the case that the same significant psychological or behavioral trait can be seen in the different horoscopes. However, the way that the trait manifests in the lives of the individuals may be slightly different even though the energetic signature is the same.

FWIW, these ruminations are of course subjective but I see them as painting a consistent picture from diverse sources that supports the hypothesis that not only does karma from progenitors exist but it is also possible to "release the karmic debt" across time at any given point in time. And as it's been said by others in this thread you are always the person to do it and the way of doing it is by changing the way that you react emotionally to things and consequently how you act at the present time. And what it boils down to is doing your Work so that your actions are not the result of programs or unconscious coping mechanisms, etc. So let's help our families and ourselves and release some karma :D

On the other hand, there is a sort of "karma" that is passed on from parents to children in epigenetics. Perhaps there is something similar on the soul level? You know, as in "as above, so below" and vice versa?

Can we imagine that C are “us” in the future, the karma, is “us” in the present, the genetics is “us” in the past? The soul and the genetic matter are worked of the same original energy substance! If not I do not understand the link karmic with the genetic matter…
Two things: 1st. The genetic matter is only the vehicle of our soul. 2nd. The genetic vehicle is the part of our soul of the past! Would you have other explanations?

 

[davey72]

I have a friend that has switched to the Hindu religion. He is vegan, etc. Anyways, he has been to see the holy men of this religion in India, and this is apparently one of the things that they say. That your karma comes from your parents type of thing. What if this is just another skewed part of a religion in that perhaps epigenetics plays a part. As the C's have said our souls merge with our bodies. It is a resonating fit. Perhaps the lessons we need to learn can come in our dna. In this respect this could be true, although not exactly as it is touted.

 

[cubbex]

This discussion reminds me of the genograms that the author of Children of Trauma did in that book. She said:

In doing genogram (family mapping) work with couples over the years, I have seen consistent, repetitive themes emerge and re-emerge in interactions and conflicts that had begun in earlier generations. Themes of distance, conflict, enmeshment, alcoholism, abuse, affairs, divorce, depression, financial instability, inability to bond, suicidal ideation, etc., seemed to show themselves in generation after generation. One might ask, as one woman did, “How can this happen? How could I have known? It wasn’t like that between us before commitment.

We tend to seek out when choosing a partner, what is familiar in much the same way that someone from another country might seek out others with the same customs, language and values. We learned how to survive and adapt in dysfunctional families through use of particular defenses, nonverbal communication, cues, mannerisms and adaptive behaviors. In our families of origin, we develop many beliefs about ourselves in relation to each other and the world. We are allowed expression of some emotions and not others. We seek out partners who allow us to “be at home” and continue these beliefs and expressions on the one hand, while we continue to attempt resolution for the once-discarded child.

She encourages her patients to do family research in order to complete the genogram. The patterns revealed are mind boggling, almost like a dominant inheritance. Then she quotes "McGoldrick, M., and Gerson, R., Genograms in Family Assessment, New York: W. W. Newton, 1985" as one of her sources. But I never heard of that book before until now that I made a search on genogram on her book.

I agree with this and the shared theories related to the systemic theory. From my classes a college one professor very educated on family therapy and that sort of thing, taught us about the genograms, and he told us that there are patterns from both sides of our families that we may repeat and that the next generations may repeat as well. He says that is easy to anticipate who will break these patterns, just by observing the order his patient occupies in his/her brotherhood, if he's the first born child is probably he will break some of these patterns as he will be the most independent. I did along my mates my genogram, and indeed I noticed that my family repeats a lots of patterns, maybe this family karma.

For example from my dad, none of the males reached high education, none of them have a career, but as my father got out of his born family and went to live with his uncle, he was the first one to inspire having a high grade of education, and is the first one to be president of some medical organization, then his brothers tried to have a career too and one of them was pretty successful. I say is nothing but buffers or programs as part of our genetic program/code.

 

[Divide by Zero]

I have a friend that has switched to the Hindu religion. He is vegan, etc. Anyways, he has been to see the holy men of this religion in India, and this is apparently one of the things that they say. That your karma comes from your parents type of thing. What if this is just another skewed part of a religion in that perhaps epigenetics plays a part. As the C's have said our souls merge with our bodies. It is a resonating fit. Perhaps the lessons we need to learn can come in our dna. In this respect this could be true, although not exactly as it is touted.

In my struggle with understanding karma and how unfair it seems, I got to see the Hindu religion as something not so spiritual.
It was an excuse to treat some people like crap, the Untouchables, etc with an excuse of karma.

I also wondered about this karmic wheel, if everything we do creates Karma, wouldn't it be sort of perfectionism to have no karma? In that case, isn't that like a math problem with infinite variables that are always changing? I see there's no way to win that zero sum game, if even our own past lives are "conviniently" forgotten at birth!

It seems like the simple and karmic lessons the C's speak about are more about accepting karma, so that we can step out of it's pitfalls. In epigenetics, it means to stop doing things that harm the body and mind. In our social situation, it means to stop identifying with these twisted social mores that have such a momentum in our upgringing.
In psychology, we have to first see the pattern or issue before we can grow past it and correct the issue.

But to do that, requires awareness and a push for more than what was laid down for us as "inevitable". The push could be the higher emotional center perhaps, this righteous anger/sadness/shock that comes from thinking about dying and recycling (or going into nothingness).

 

[obyvatel]

I have a friend that has switched to the Hindu religion. He is vegan, etc. Anyways, he has been to see the holy men of this religion in India, and this is apparently one of the things that they say. That your karma comes from your parents type of thing. What if this is just another skewed part of a religion in that perhaps epigenetics plays a part. As the C's have said our souls merge with our bodies. It is a resonating fit. Perhaps the lessons we need to learn can come in our dna. In this respect this could be true, although not exactly as it is touted.

In my struggle with understanding karma and how unfair it seems, I got to see the Hindu religion as something not so spiritual.
It was an excuse to treat some people like crap, the Untouchables, etc with an excuse of karma.

It is not too relevant in this context but just fyi and to set the record straight, Hindu religion is not a monolithic, centrally controlled religion. It has many currents and many of these do not care about caste system. Several reform movements denouncing the caste segregation have taken place within the fold of the religion as well as outside it (eg Buddhism) since ancient times.

[quote author=Divide By Zero]
I also wondered about this karmic wheel, if everything we do creates Karma, wouldn't it be sort of perfectionism to have no karma? In that case, isn't that like a math problem with infinite variables that are always changing? I see there's no way to win that zero sum game, if even our own past lives are "conviniently" forgotten at birth!
[/quote]

As far as I am aware, the concept of Karma comes from Hinduism and is taken up by Buddhism at a later stage. The popular form of Hinduism that deals with Karma holds that an action performed without attachment to the results does not incur Karma. In other words, one uses knowledge and discrimination to act appropriately in a given situation without getting identified with the results of the action.

[quote author=Divide By Zero]
It seems like the simple and karmic lessons the C's speak about are more about accepting karma, so that we can step out of it's pitfalls. In epigenetics, it means to stop doing things that harm the body and mind. In our social situation, it means to stop identifying with these twisted social mores that have such a momentum in our upgringing.
In psychology, we have to first see the pattern or issue before we can grow past it and correct the issue.

But to do that, requires awareness and a push for more than what was laid down for us as "inevitable". The push could be the higher emotional center perhaps, this righteous anger/sadness/shock that comes from thinking about dying and recycling (or going into nothingness).
[/quote]

My understanding of karmic lessons is also along similar lines - that of accepting the present situation and working from there. If we look around the world, there is no escaping the realization that different people in different places have very different opportunities and possibilities in life. Someone born in circumstances where the struggle is to simply stay alive and put food in the mouth on a day-to-day basis cannot be expected to really see the big picture and ponder about life's mysteries. Someone born with some inherited illness that impairs normal functioning similarly has a different set of possibilities than someone who is born healthy. We may wish for equality and fairness, but the reality we inhabit is not built the way we tend to understand these terms. The doctrine of Karma is one convenient way to explain some uncomfortable aspects of reality as I see it.

In addition, it has played a role in encouraging moral and ethical behavior among people who believe in it. In monotheistic religions, the moral edicts are enforced by divine decree - as in if you do bad, God will punish you. In Hinduism, if you do bad, karma will eventually catch up with you, if not in this lifetime then in a different one. Since there is no discernible linear (time) relationship between action and consequences from our perspective, the doctrine of Karma and the associated doctrine of rebirth play a useful role in promoting moral behavior. On the negative side, these two doctrines together can promote a somewhat fatalistic attitude and/or self-calming or laziness in the societies which are steeped in them.

All in all, whether the doctrine of Karma is true is not that important a question IMO. One does not necessarily need reasons or an implicit threat to behave in a moral/ethical manner. Nor does one necessarily need to explain or justify reality to make oneself feel more comfortable. When one is able to stand on his/her two feet to face and participate in reality as is, accepting its inherent uncertainty and one's own incomplete understanding at this level, then the doctrine of Karma need not be used as a crutch as it often is (not here in the forum but in general), but can stay on as a working hypothesis. OSIT