Kate & Will - Wedding coverage

[truth seeker]

We've been having a lot of discussions about this lately, especially after reading "Caricature of Love," and we suspect that the promotion of too-thin women is basically a mysogynistic program designed to make women look like young boys.

In addition to that thought, perhaps it points more to the idea that pedophile psychopaths see weight as a sign of aging/maturity and so the promotion of thin/young/childlike is what is attractive to them. A woman resembling a child may be a way to have their cake and eat it too so to speak.

 

[EGVG]

We've been having a lot of discussions about this lately, especially after reading "Caricature of Love," and we suspect that the promotion of too-thin women is basically a mysogynistic program designed to make women look like young boys.

In addition to that thought, perhaps it points more to the idea that pedophile psychopaths see weight as a sign of aging/maturity and so the promotion of thin/young/childlike is what is attractive to them. A woman resembling a child may be a way to have their cake and eat it too so to speak.

 

[RyanX]

We've been having a lot of discussions about this lately, especially after reading "Caricature of Love," and we suspect that the promotion of too-thin women is basically a mysogynistic program designed to make women look like young boys.

In addition to that thought, perhaps it points more to the idea that pedophile psychopaths see weight as a sign of aging/maturity and so the promotion of thin/young/childlike is what is attractive to them. A woman resembling a child may be a way to have their cake and eat it too so to speak.

In another recent thread there was a comment by Freya:

Oh for what it's worth.... I hate being called 'Babe'!!! Just because I am a woman, and maybe I am a 'babe', whatever that is!! I do have a name!!!

"Babe", "Baby", and all the variations on that word... It's not uncommon for men to refer to women by these words. The subconscious message it sends women is: "don't mature, stay helpless and defenseless as a baby" - or something like that.

 

[cassandra]

Large eyes and small noses also appeal to men as they " trigger massive paternal reactions in the brains and confer a powerful desire to touch, embrace and protect. The most attractive women are those with baby faces" from Allan and Barbara Pease in "Why Men Lie and Women Cry".

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

"Babe", "Baby", and all the variations on that word... It's not uncommon for men to refer to women by these words. The subconscious message it sends women is: "don't mature, stay helpless and defenseless as a baby" - or something like that.

Maybe I'm weird (or ponerized) or it's simply a language thing i wouldn't understand (I'm not a native English speaker), but when my husband calls me baby, it's the sweetest thing. We also call our daughter (5 years old) Bébé Doux (Sweet baby in French), because it's the most tender name we can think of. There is nothing sweeter and lovelier than a baby. He calls no one else like that and neither do I, so it's a very intimate thing.
But it's true that in French calling someone "Bébé" is not that common unless they are intimate with them so I don't know how English-speaking women feel about that.

Sometimes the weirdest choice of word can be hypochoristic: my grandmother who was very fond of me (she had always wanted a girl, had had 7 sons and I was her first granddaughter) was calling me ma crotte (literally "my turd"!!) which in my country (Belgium) is said to girls/women, is very affectionate and means 'my sweetie pie'...

 

[Lan8r]

Mrs.Tigersoap and all,

I just want to clarify my thoughts regarding this quote. I also mentioned:

I should have clarified, I meant that I find it rude for someone that I don't know or hardly know to call me 'babe' (which is a common phrase here in the US) or even 'darling' or 'honey'. It feels degrading. I may take it too personally, but I am a person in my own right, and I don't know you well enough to be your 'babe, 'darling', or even your 'honey'!

Now, if I were the 'woman with whom the person is in love', the term of endearment, I would hope, would be an expression of love and I would welcome it, whatever it may be.

I also mentioned that there have been times when these phrases have been used by a stranger and it did not evoke any negative emotional feelings. They actually at times sounded like a true compliment.

I think that common 'terms of endearment' may differ according to our cultures, however there are times and there are people who use these terms in a derogatory way.

Without putting words into RyanX's mouth, It appears that his point was exactly that

"Babe", "Baby", and all the variations on that word... It's not uncommon for men to refer to women by these words. The subconscious message it sends women is: "don't mature, stay helpless and defenseless as a baby" - or something like that.

Whereas, these words coming from someone you love, and who also loves you, in a relationship situation, may signify a desire on the part of the Man (or more masculine partner) to protect and care for the woman (or more feminine) partner. That I feel is honorable and it is lacking in men who commonly refer to woman, in general, as 'Babes', or 'Honey''.

I am not very good a expressing my thoughts sometimes, and maybe being raised in the US, where being derogatory to women is basically socially acceptable, has skewed my perception. But I do feel there are times when the use of such phrases does have a 'stay helpless and defenseless' connotation, and there are times when it is a heartfelt expression of a higher desire to honor the feminine.

I hope I am not coming off as too defensive. Just trying to be as clear about my thoughts as possible!!

 

[truth seeker]

No worries, Freya! :) I think I understand - it basically depends upon the context, who's saying it and how it's said.

 

[Beau]

No worries, Freya! :) I think I understand - it basically depends upon the context, who's saying it and how it's said.

I couldn't agree more. My personal experience, as a man, is of using these kind of expressions in what I eventually realized were derogatory ways. Looking back now, I realize that I was, and probably still am, influenced by many things. Seeing it around me from my father to his, and my own, friends. TV and movies are also implicated. It appears as normal behavior when you see it around you, especially when it's the people who you look up to. I can see how I became misogynistic by being practically brainwashed. I did and said things that I didn't understand the meaning of, nor how they affected others, specifically women. And I see it every day with other guys around me. It's a very disheartening view.

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

I hope I am not coming off as too defensive. Just trying to be as clear about my thoughts as possible!!

Not at all, I understand ! :)

 

[agni]

Now, how about women shaving legs ? Doesn't it fall in the same concept of pedophile psychopaths adoring to young/childlike ?

I thought it was pretty dumb idea someone came up with for women to shave legs, since society now pretty much demands it. And it's gross if you don't. I wonder if it would be looked at same way if it would never has happened in the first place historically ?

But shaving in general, I think, goes for both genders where end result to reassemble young, with slight exception for men, since beards tend to be itchy sometimes.

I had the feeling that TPTB are pushing more towards more androgynous types.

Why is that PTB and what's wrong with being androgynous ? That's a honest question open to everyone, may be I am not seeing or understanding something about this subject.

If anything, I think it helps one get in touch with other half of own nature. I am a guy, but hey, if I feel like showing some feminine traits, I am men enough to let them be for what they are. No way I am going to suppress it for the sake of maintaining singularity of only one gender. I think it's unhealthy. Presence of two parts to some degree is undeniable. I am my own mother and I am my own father so to speak.

I have been "revoked man card" on many occasions for not being afraid to show these feminine traits, but it makes me laugh. Because it seems to make men uncomfortable to the point they reassemble shy/insecure women themselves when they start joking about it. It seems that many men are afraid of their female counter part like fire, it visible by naked eye how much tension this denial produces. And I am pretty sure it quite similar for women as well (just in reverese direction)

I wanted to do something provocative on Halloween by wearing a dress to work as an ode to presence and acknowledgment of feminine part in men, but I doubt I would have delivered a right message if no one would ask about it. I think Kurt Cobain (nirvana) pulled it out, stating: I can be female all I want.

So, going to original question of "androgynous". I think it does not matter what gender one is or how proportionate presence of these energies in the body as long as they are not suppressed. I am a man, but I think I have dominating feminine part, so basically I can say I am a women within a male body, yet I am attracted to women only. What does it make me ? Am I men ? Am I women ? Am I androgynous ? Not that I care though, being a human being is good enough for me.

 

[SolarMother]

Freya

Whereas, these words coming from someone you love, and who also loves you, in a relationship situation, may signify a desire on the part of the Man (or more masculine partner) to protect and care for the woman (or more feminine) partner. That I feel is honorable and it is lacking in men who commonly refer to woman, in general, as 'Babes', or 'Honey''.

Just catching this interesting conversation. This is one of my fav topics! I agree with the honor of chivalry you mentioned Freya! And not expressing oneself 'well enough' (you mentioned this earlier) can be a feminine trait since women/or the feminine tend to think more in a circular manner. Just watch us talk to eachother!

Just a short comment here in order to throw in a different point of view to this fun topic. My husband feels good as a man when I allow him to be a man, and then I get to be a woman and the polarity is much more pronounced between us and there is more bonding and connection. Of course we can switch around too, but we have a certain amount of knowledge about polarity, so we can have fun with it.
My 2c worth is that a couple can become room mates or buddies when both are being androgynous. In our culture (especially the US) women are just like men, and men are hungry to meet and find more feminine women. That doesn't mean that the woman is dependent. Just watch some of those 40's movies with feisty, powerful but very feminine women! The reverse can be said that some men, even though they may say they like a take-charge woman, end up becoming wimps if they are in a relationship with one. Many women seem to have lost their feminine core essence, and the same applies to men losing their masculinity (or as least they can't seem to find it!) ;D

agni

So, going to original question of "androgynous". I think it does not matter what gender one is or how proportionate presence of these energies in the body as long as they are not suppressed. I am a man, but I think I have dominating feminine part, so basically I can say I am a women within a male body, yet I am attracted to women only. What does it make me ? Am I men ? Am I women ? Am I androgynous ? Not that I care though, being a human being is good enough for me.

Perhaps it depends on how much polarity/passion one wants to experience. When I say passion I don't mean 'lower chakra' sex, I mean a real current of play and bonding between a couple. FWIW!

 

[Beau]

I just recently came across a profile of Anna Faris, a Hollywood actress, in The New Yorker, where they published numerous comments from Holllywood execs talking about how women are viewed in our society. It was picked up by Jezebel, who posted an article titled "Hollywood Insiders Admit Hollywood Hates Women". In it, they posted excerpts of the New Yorker profile, which is behind a pay wall:

* "In my experience, girls' revealing themselves as candid and raunchy doesn't appeal to guys at all," Stacey Snider, a partner in and the C.E.O. of DreamWorks Studios, says. "And girls aren't that into it, either."

* Another thing no one is into: A successful woman. We knew that, and yet this is devastating nonetheless: "To make a woman adorable, one successful female screenwriter says, "you have to defeat her at the beginning. It's a conscious thing I do—abuse and break her, strip her of her dignity, and then she gets to live out our fantasies and have fun. It's as simple as making the girl cry, fifteen minutes into the movie."

* But everyone likes a hot girl, if she's not too successful or intimidating. Of Faris, a "leading agent" says, "What Anna has going for her, to be crass, is that guys want to nail her."

* As we know, that is necessary but insufficient. She has to be sexy, but not have sex. Faris's new film with Mylod, What's Your Number, is about a woman who learns from a ladymag that if she sleeps with one more man than the twenty she already has, she'll never get married. The studio executive debate over the number is instructive, as they wring their hands over how many would make the character an unrelated -jezebel-. (You have to wonder how many women these studio executives have themselves -flicked-, and how they might mentally reward themselves for each notch over twenty.)
No worries, because one executive concludes that "there's an innocent quality to Anna's sexuality, and an inherent kindness to her, that makes it possible to make a movie about sex and have it feel like she's still a sweetheart." Good thing she has big eyes and bottle-blonde hair — otherwise she'd just be a nasty -jezebel-.

* Faris knows this herself: "Our answer to ‘Wedding Crashers' was ‘Gold Diggers,' " she says of an upcoming movie with Kate Hudson. "But the big hitch was, nobody's going to like those girls if they seem like sluts... We realized we can't make an actual female ‘Wedding Crashers,' because then it would be ‘Call Girls.' "

* The step-by-step dissection of why things suck so hard for women in comedy requires rare moments of self-awareness by men in comedy: Seth Rogen thinks Faris is hilarious, is honest about himself: "If ‘Pineapple Express' "—a druggy comedy he starred in with James Franco—"had been about two girls, they wouldn't have made it. And if I were a woman I wouldn't have a career." (We're rooting for Best Buds in this regard.) And here's Airplane director David Zucker on why the classic comedy formula of a fat guy and a thin guy doesn't work with women: "Maybe women have a built-in dignity, and if a woman slips on a banana peel . . ." After a moment, he concluded, "You know, maybe it's just that I've never tried it." Maybe!

 

[truth seeker]

So, going to original question of "androgynous". I think it does not matter what gender one is or how proportionate presence of these energies in the body as long as they are not suppressed. I am a man, but I think I have dominating feminine part, so basically I can say I am a women within a male body, yet I am attracted to women only. What does it make me ? Am I men ? Am I women ? Am I androgynous ? Not that I care though, being a human being is good enough for me.

Perhaps the idea of androgyny becomes an issue when it is seen or more specifically programmed into someone as being the only choice in order to be accepted by society as opposed to being a personal choice one has made because it is an expression of oneself? In that case, I would think it would be a denial of an individual's choice to express as more "male" or "female". Not so different from what we (in general) do now in terms of denying feminine or masculine aspects. For what it's worth.

 

[EGVG]

I just recently came across a profile of Anna Faris, a Hollywood actress, in The New Yorker, where they published numerous comments from Holllywood execs talking about how women are viewed in our society. It was picked up by Jezebel, who posted an article titled "Hollywood Insiders Admit Hollywood Hates Women". In it, they posted excerpts of the New Yorker profile, which is behind a pay wall:

* "In my experience, girls' revealing themselves as candid and raunchy doesn't appeal to guys at all," Stacey Snider, a partner in and the C.E.O. of DreamWorks Studios, says. "And girls aren't that into it, either."

* Another thing no one is into: A successful woman. We knew that, and yet this is devastating nonetheless: "To make a woman adorable, one successful female screenwriter says, "you have to defeat her at the beginning. It's a conscious thing I do—abuse and break her, strip her of her dignity, and then she gets to live out our fantasies and have fun. It's as simple as making the girl cry, fifteen minutes into the movie."

* But everyone likes a hot girl, if she's not too successful or intimidating. Of Faris, a "leading agent" says, "What Anna has going for her, to be crass, is that guys want to nail her."

* As we know, that is necessary but insufficient. She has to be sexy, but not have sex. Faris's new film with Mylod, What's Your Number, is about a woman who learns from a ladymag that if she sleeps with one more man than the twenty she already has, she'll never get married. The studio executive debate over the number is instructive, as they wring their hands over how many would make the character an unrelated -jezebel-. (You have to wonder how many women these studio executives have themselves -flicked-, and how they might mentally reward themselves for each notch over twenty.)
No worries, because one executive concludes that "there's an innocent quality to Anna's sexuality, and an inherent kindness to her, that makes it possible to make a movie about sex and have it feel like she's still a sweetheart." Good thing she has big eyes and bottle-blonde hair — otherwise she'd just be a nasty -jezebel-.

* Faris knows this herself: "Our answer to ‘Wedding Crashers' was ‘Gold Diggers,' " she says of an upcoming movie with Kate Hudson. "But the big hitch was, nobody's going to like those girls if they seem like sluts... We realized we can't make an actual female ‘Wedding Crashers,' because then it would be ‘Call Girls.' "

* The step-by-step dissection of why things suck so hard for women in comedy requires rare moments of self-awareness by men in comedy: Seth Rogen thinks Faris is hilarious, is honest about himself: "If ‘Pineapple Express' "—a druggy comedy he starred in with James Franco—"had been about two girls, they wouldn't have made it. And if I were a woman I wouldn't have a career." (We're rooting for Best Buds in this regard.) And here's Airplane director David Zucker on why the classic comedy formula of a fat guy and a thin guy doesn't work with women: "Maybe women have a built-in dignity, and if a woman slips on a banana peel . . ." After a moment, he concluded, "You know, maybe it's just that I've never tried it." Maybe!

I love Anna Faris! She's so funny!!! It's no secret that hollywood hates women, the fashion industry also hates women, their goal is to make their lives miserable.

 

[agni]

So, going to original question of "androgynous". I think it does not matter what gender one is or how proportionate presence of these energies in the body as long as they are not suppressed. I am a man, but I think I have dominating feminine part, so basically I can say I am a women within a male body, yet I am attracted to women only. What does it make me ? Am I men ? Am I women ? Am I androgynous ? Not that I care though, being a human being is good enough for me.

Perhaps the idea of androgyny becomes an issue when it is seen or more specifically programmed into someone as being the only choice in order to be accepted by society as opposed to being a personal choice one has made because it is an expression of oneself? In that case, I would think it would be a denial of an individual's choice to express as more "male" or "female". Not so different from what we (in general) do now in terms of denying feminine or masculine aspects. For what it's worth.

In other words it is an issue if present/residing/inner aspects of feminine/masculine energies that are natural to self are not allowed to manifest & function (suppressed), but rather dictated/shaped by outside influences. Did I understand you correctly ? Partially ? Or am I totally off ?

Thank you.