Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Oh, here is the answer, I think:

My overall sense (which I realize is not a precise measure) is that my health has declined somewhat since I dropped below 50 g/day of carb intake. When I originally started the KD I first went down to 20-25 g/d for an Atkins-style "induction," then dropped experimentally to ~0 g/d, which made me rather ill, and then came back up until I felt better, which was at ~50 g/d.

So, I gather you haven't been at a low-carb (yes, I mean 0 or practically 0, sorry) diet long enough. As you started to think that your health was declining, you increased carbs again. I'd say that that isn't much of a scientific experiment, Megan. If you have so many sensitivities, but at the smallest "decline" you drop it, IMO you are doing further damage to your body by creating a yo-yo effect, than if you had just continued with your previous diet.

 

[Tchaka]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Day 7 update. Things seem stable enough. Just checked with Keto Stick for the first time and it reads 60 mg/dl which converts to 3.3 mmol/l, I believe. This seems low from what I gleam for the Ketosis we are shooting for, but perhaps I am mistaken. Wondering if I should reduce the protein, although it's pretty low already I think. Normal day's meals look like this:

breakfast: glass of water with celtic sea salt. bone broth/gruel plus a 1 heaping spoon of lard, 1 heaping spoon of bacon grease, 1 sizable spoon of ghee. heated. two strips of bacon and an egg.

lunch: same bone broth, lard, bacon grease, ghee and some form of protein (can of sardines, meatball, few slices of turkey, half a palm sized piece of fish, a chunk of salami or really just any "reasonable" portion of meat that is available.)

dinner: same broth, same meat.

Although, it just dawned on me that perhaps i need to cut out the evening protein. Although I have noticed a loss of weight (a few pounds) so maybe not. but again, if this is keeping me out of full ketosis, seems I should. Any advice?

I won't list what I have cut out because that's pretty much everything. Other than plain tea, water, the above mentioned food and seltzer water (which I am a fiend for, as, along with tea, it is bountiful at my movie theatre job). From the light research i've done, seltzer water doesn't seem to have any negative effects and I can't see how it would effect ketosis. Please let me know if anyone knows differently.

As for the effect on my existence so to speak, definitely clearer head and definitely more disciplined, with EE every day plus cold showers (often preceding and following a hot steam…can't seem to find anything here or on the web that discourages the use of steam rooms and they just seem to make me feel great). Usually choose reading over watching movies or shows.

A couple days I did have a slight headache before bed. A couple moments of cramp in my right calf only. Light soreness in my biceps, ear pulsing in the first few days before bed. And once on day 3 accidentally looked directly at the fridge light and the brightness remained for almost a hole minute, so brightly. Every other day I feel either great in the morning or weak, but after eating I feel fine. The resistance exercises usually leave me more energized and slightly euphoric (as do the cold showers). Although I do have some questions on the exercises but will form those after continuing it for a while.

I purchased some supplements which were the only ones available at my local coop:

Magnesuim Citrate, Potassium (Amino Acid Complex) and Vitamin C Bioflavonoid complex 500.

but to be honest would rather just return them (not opened) as i can not see any direct ailment I would need to correct by using them. Does anyone one in the know have any advice on this matter? Are any of these essential or do they just alleviate symptoms of the transformation that is occurring and could otherwise just be "suffered through"?

Lastly, BM's alternate. For the first two days nothing. then every other day either very loose or soft and formed. Seems to be the norm.

the hardest part of all of this is the psychology of gearing up to eat the broth thinking.."oh this again" as I grab my gruel, reaching past the OJ thinking, "but..but..they told me such JUICES were the secret to longevity, and now I may never taste that sweet nectar again!!???" (same goes for smoothies, chocolate and any thing with pasta sauce) But I just remind myself what we are doing here and that this is no child's game we are playing at. This is full on war and each battle won (each gruel slurped down) is a reminder that I'm one step closer to potential victory. It's also nice that once it's consumed, I want for nothing for a spell.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Tchaka, keep in mind that the ketostix will only show stuff initially. After the body adjusts to using the ketones, they don't get dumped in the urine or in the breath anymore. After that, you have to do blood tests to see the level. So, don't obsess over those stix. Use 'em a couple times initially, and then forget them.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

but to be honest would rather just return them (not opened) as i can not see any direct ailment I would need to correct by using them. Does anyone one in the know have any advice on this matter? Are any of these essential or do they just alleviate symptoms of the transformation that is occurring and could otherwise just be "suffered through"?

Tchaka, if your budget is tight, you could potentially return them. In theory a fatty bone broth with plenty of salt should be enough. But I would keep them in stock, since they are very useful on an occasional basis when you are going through more stress, are having cramps or are feeling extra tired among others. They are very handy.

 

[Tchaka]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thank you Laura and Psyche for your responses.

Laura: I will not stress the Keto Stix. However, do you think I should look into an appropriate Keto Meter? Or does it look like I'm on the right track and should just stay the course? I know it's early and I had it in my head that one would just know when they were in Ketosis. I'm having trouble distinguishing whether my breath is indicating the change, although my mouth definately seems different...just not awful. Perhaps I should get an outside oppinion. ~
And unlike others, I'm not having an onslaught of the telltale aches, pains and reactions that seem to come with doing it correctly. I personally think I should skip the third meal protein for starters just to be safe. I don't think I could yet psychologically stomach adding any more fat to my broth, but who knows.

Psyche: I can get by without returning them. I will keep them for "emergencies". Part of my concern was whether they were the appropriate versions...Like the Magnesium Citrate. There have been lots of references to the Maltate being used. And I recall one particular form being less than appropriate for our endeavors. Just to reiterate, these are the versions I have:

Magnesuim Citrate (Additional Ingredients: Microcrysalline Cellulose, Vegitable Cellulos, Dicalcium Phosphate, Silica, Vegetable Magnesium Stearate, Titanium Dioxide, Begetable Glycerin)

Potassium [Amino Acid Complex] (Ad Ingr: Microcrystalline Cellulose, Vegetable Cellulose, Vegetable Stearic Acid)

Vitamin C Bioflavonoid complex 500. (Ad Ing: Cellulose, dicalcium phosphate, vegetable sterin, cellulose gum, silica, magnesium stearate, acerola and alfalfa)

forgive me if listing these is ridiculous as perhaps all supplements have all these supplemental ingredients as there base. I've always been the "pop a multi and call it even" kind of guy, foolishly with little knowledge of their composition.

thanks again for all your help in these matters. :)

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Tchaka, have you read the entire thread? All of these issues have been brought up and discussed.

 

[Tchaka]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have read it, yes. I will go back and see if I can find the answers within. was just a wee bit confused. but yes, they are here I'm sure. I understand my foible in this matter.

thanks again. ;)

 

[Tchaka]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So with a little searching I found my answers: (forgive me, don't quite comprehend the quote function and worried I 'd just post all these hieroglyphic like computer tags, so just quoting oldschool)

yes, i think i will get a ketone meter, seems inexpensive and more so, smart:

"At this lower level, ketones are doing little to feed your brain or help you build muscle, whereas at or above 2.0 millimolar BOHB, both would be working strongly in your favor. Is this worth paying $20 for the test meter, $2 per test, and pricking your fingertip once per day for a month or two? Based upon our experience working with many people, we think that the answer is “yes”."

from The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living via Psyche 10/20/12

and as for the "bad" Magnesium:

"Avoid Magnesium aspartate due to possible neurotoxicity! Magnesium Taurate, Orotate, Glycinate or Citrate should be much safer and also relatively easily absorbable forms of oral Mg supplementation!"

from Dr. Carolin Dean in her book Magnesium Miracle via osher 10/28/12

lastly, I will try and limit protein to this:

"protein at about 1-2 grams/kg of desired weight, and cut your fat to get to an appropriate calorie level for you."

although i recall a concensus of actually even less. Still a bit iffy on how to figure this, but I know I will with a little figuring. I know it's here somewhere too, but having trouble locating.

sorry for the previous post. Just thought I'd answer my own redundant questions to clear it up.

hope that's cool.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

While catching up on the last few pages, I realized that butyrate is part of beta-hydroxybutyrate (BOHB), the third type of ketone.

Tchaka's experience with euphoria after exercising follows the reasoning of BOHB being similar to GHB, as acetoacetate (second ketone type) is converted to BOHB by the muscles.

 

[Tchaka]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Edit to my last post...I quoted the wrong one, as I believe and agree that fat is not to be cut. In my haste to get out of work I pasted the wrong one.

point is...limit protein to above amount...i will not limit fat. if anything, i'll increase fat.

Mono, that sounds promising. looking forward to some resistance tomorrow. ;D

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

although i recall a concensus of actually even less. Still a bit iffy on how to figure this, but I know I will with a little figuring. I know it's here somewhere too, but having trouble locating.

There was a big discussion about that way back in this thread IIRC. I concluded there was not a benefit to having more than 25g of protein in a single meal (due to digestive considerations), but during ketoadaption it is important to have enough protein to prevent muscle loss. Look at this post and the other posts from the same time:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.msg365159.html#msg365159

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I don't have access to sodium butyrate, but I do have access to high vitamin butter oil, the kind Dr. Price used in combination with fermented cod liver oil.

And you have taken it consistently without noticing effects? If you upped your intake of butter and vitamin butter oil to no avail, I would experiment doing the occasional enema with it. It would definitely not hurt. But beware that these types of enemas can be hard to retain, so I would start small.

Sorry Psyche, I should have been clearer. When I said I had access to it, I meant I can buy it from the store I work at (although it seems we've been out of stock on it for awhile now). I haven't been using it as it's expensive.

[quote author=Psyche]
I have gut issues transitioning and for a moment I thought that taking some extra carbs was the answer. But I'm glad I persisted since clarity of mind is definitely sharper on a 0 carb diet.[/quote]

Good point. I haven't been doing ghee at all lately, in fact. I was thinking that, since it doesn't reach the colon in the digestive tract it wouldn't help, but there's nothing to say it can't be carried there through the blood! I think I'm going to experiment by eating a lot of ghee to see if it makes any difference. I'm getting a little sick of lard anyway.

[quote author=Psyche]
The other thing I tried was to eat the bone broth as gelatin. Lots of liquidy broth was not sitting well in my tummy. It was bloating me and it makes me think of Hiromi Shinya's book The Enzyme Factor where he says that having solid food is a good stimulus for digestion and digestive enzymes and that the worst possible thing a person can do after gut surgery is to restart the oral route with liquid food. Well, I like the consistency of jello a lot as well. I make my bone broth from pig's feet and then eat it as jello after a day in the fridge. It is glorious!
[/quote]

Eesh, dunno if I can go there. Cold broth does not sound good to me at all - turns my stomach a bit thinking about it. Maybe worth an experiment... I'll have to psych myself up for that one! Do you salt it when it's cold?

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am in a holding pattern right now...

I was getting this too when I was fluctuating between low carbs and no carbs. The no carbs seemed to bring it on. But after I made it past the three week mtDNA activation period, now I only get it if I eat carbs! I think it's due to the morning dump from the adrenals. It took me a little while to stop having it most mornings, now it is just occasional. I think it means EAT NOW. So I do and that takes care of things.

I have had glitchy pains here and there, now and then, but that mostly stops as long as I'm getting enough bone broth and salt with an occasional potassium tab and pretty regular magnesium malate.

I am prepared to put up with the headache for months if need be. What worried me was the combination of headache and abdominal pain, in the area of my liver. I still don't know what brought that on and I would like to see the upcoming lab results, so that I at least know if this is on top of other issues that I need to know about.

...Sounds like you pretty desperately need to get that wild mtDNA up and moving! So did I! It was a struggle, I can tell you!...

...I had the same experience until I became absolutely determined to get the healing mtDNA working which I knew was the key and can only happen one way, and no matter how miserable I was (and it was a bit of torture since I had so many issues, pains, tiredness, etc) I was going to do it. Because, of course, I realized that the carbs were just simply prolonging the state - that no real, deep healing could ever take place as long as I had any of them to burn. For me, it really was a kind of alchemical death and transformation and it wasn't pleasant. Even some of the young'uns around here went through trials that were similar. As we reported, the main thing seemed to be the bone-deep tiredness and the bone pains which were worst from the hips to the knees, but I also had things going on in the liver area, lower legs, and arms.

Now, however, having re-tooled the machine to burn fat, it is the carbs that cause the headaches and other pains! Go figure!

Yes, the wild mtDNA seems to be very important, and I am not "holding" on the exercise. I don't strictly have to wait until I see the doctor again to go back to zero carbs, but I have more traveling coming up this next week and I would like to start after that. If the liver pain returns, I will mention it here.

It was actually rather nice not having to deal with carbs for a couple of weeks. It let me spend less time cooking breakfast and more time eating it (so as to chew and digest better), and it was one less pan to preheat and clean up as well.

I have realized something about these present metabolic problems -- they started when I received radiation treatment in 2007. While it was supposedly a low dose, I lost my appetite and they (i.e. the registered dietician) had me consume a liquid "nutrient drink" that I realize now was pure poison -- soy, corn syrup, you name it. Dreadful stuff. I wonder now if that didn't do more damage than the radiation. I am pretty sure that if I drank the same thing today for a couple of weeks like I did back then, I would be very ill. It probably generated lots of ROS, and mutant mtDNA. No wonder I felt so much fatigue.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan, I totally agree with Laura, because I had a similar experience. What is the longest you have been at very low carbs? I mean, not September when you started, but how long you maintained a low-carb diet for, without a break. Apologies if I missed it.

It's been a bumpy ride. I started at around 20 g/d in June or July of 2011, tried zero carbs for a few weeks in July, and then worked my way up to near 50 g/day sometime last year. I came back down to about 30 g/d in August or September, went to zero again for a couple of weeks in September, and then back up to 20 g/d since then, starting around the first of October.

All of this is in the "very low carb" (VLC) range as far as anyone outside this group is concerned. Since that is how "VLC" is used (< 50 g/d, most often) when I see it in writing anywhere else (and I read a lot of outside material) that is how I tend to use it.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan, I totally agree with Laura, because I had a similar experience. What is the longest you have been at very low carbs? I mean, not September when you started, but how long you maintained a low-carb diet for, without a break. Apologies if I missed it.

Not just lowered carbs, but NO carbs, restricted protein so that doesn't get turned into carbs, plenty of fat, AND pumping iron fast and hard so that your body shakes??? That's the ticket!

As I posted earlier, I didn't have the exercise routine together when I tried zero carbs this last time. My body shakes at the sight of the equipment, so that part should be easy. :)