Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Oh, here is the answer, I think:

My overall sense (which I realize is not a precise measure) is that my health has declined somewhat since I dropped below 50 g/day of carb intake. When I originally started the KD I first went down to 20-25 g/d for an Atkins-style "induction," then dropped experimentally to ~0 g/d, which made me rather ill, and then came back up until I felt better, which was at ~50 g/d.

So, I gather you haven't been at a low-carb (yes, I mean 0 or practically 0, sorry) diet long enough. As you started to think that your health was declining, you increased carbs again. I'd say that that isn't much of a scientific experiment, Megan. If you have so many sensitivities, but at the smallest "decline" you drop it, IMO you are doing further damage to your body by creating a yo-yo effect, than if you had just continued with your previous diet.

No, it wasn't much of an experiment. I just don't know how much liver pain is "serious." I have an underlying issue here of trying to "do things on my own," of which I am now well aware. If that pain comes back again this time or something else scary happens, I will bring it up here.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just wanted to report back on how I have been going recently ...

I work abroad at this stage and am forced to eat canteen style food. I fell out of ketosis twice in the last few weeks. Not because of carbs, but most likely due to an overabundance of protein. Fat is quite hard to come by here, the only source is butter, which I have upped considerably in the last few days - now I am back in full ketosis again.

Actually I was quite shocked, when my BOHB reading came out 0.2 mmol/l two weeks ago. I had eaten a small amount of veggies each day, but together with the protein galore it must have tipped the scales. And it took me a good week to get back into it - with much of the symptoms I had the first time around going into full ketosis.

The experience I have gained through that is:
- Once you are firmly established in ketosis it seems that the occasional "mistake" doesn't really get you out of ketosis
- But consistently increasing your protein fraction certainly does
- It takes a considerable time to revert back into ketosis, once you have completely fallen out of it

So now I am having limited protein again, some bone broth (which I brought down with me ...), lots of butter ... and that's it!

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, the wild mtDNA seems to be very important, and I am not "holding" on the exercise. I don't strictly have to wait until I see the doctor again to go back to zero carbs, but I have more traveling coming up this next week and I would like to start after that. If the liver pain returns, I will mention it here.

Soudns like a plan. You have to do it for at least 8 weeks in order to give your body long enough to heal. :)

I have realized something about these present metabolic problems -- they started when I received radiation treatment in 2007. While it was supposedly a low dose, I lost my appetite and they (i.e. the registered dietician) had me consume a liquid "nutrient drink" that I realize now was pure poison -- soy, corn syrup, you name it. Dreadful stuff. I wonder now if that didn't do more damage than the radiation. I am pretty sure that if I drank the same thing today for a couple of weeks like I did back then, I would be very ill. It probably generated lots of ROS, and mutant mtDNA. No wonder I felt so much fatigue.

Yeah! My guess is that it could be a combination of both that diet and radiation. Have you considered having some Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy? At the center where Atreides has his (for healing the wounds after his surgery), at least half of the other patients are receiving treatment to reverse the damage done by radiation. A few have bone problems after it, but there is a group with intestinal, liver and kidney problems that apperared immediately after, or sometimes years after their radiotherapy. I don't know all the details, but I can tell you that every single one of them sems to get better and better every week that goes by.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Another thing to consider is to have minced meat to help digest better. It may help get to the desired point of having around 80% of calories from fat and 20% from protein. This came to mind from Megan's post about having more time to eat/chew breakfast than preparing it while eliminating the few carbs. Pork chops, for example, no matter how fatty or tender, takes a lot more chewing for me (and lots of meat stuck in teeth to clean afterwards) than pork burgers. That's why I eat the burgers much more often, although I love pork chops. I figure it's much easier to digest ground meat so why not have that the most. Then as you get used to really high fat, the digestion goes smoothly in general. Hope it helps.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Eesh, dunno if I can go there. Cold broth does not sound good to me at all - turns my stomach a bit thinking about it. Maybe worth an experiment... I'll have to psych myself up for that one! Do you salt it when it's cold?

Yes, I salt it and add extra butter on top of it. It is very yummy! But it is understandable if you don't like it. I think the ghee butter experiment is definitely worth a try. Good stuff! Unless you are intolerant to it.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have realized something about these present metabolic problems -- they started when I received radiation treatment in 2007. While it was supposedly a low dose, I lost my appetite and they (i.e. the registered dietician) had me consume a liquid "nutrient drink" that I realize now was pure poison -- soy, corn syrup, you name it. Dreadful stuff. I wonder now if that didn't do more damage than the radiation. I am pretty sure that if I drank the same thing today for a couple of weeks like I did back then, I would be very ill. It probably generated lots of ROS, and mutant mtDNA. No wonder I felt so much fatigue.

In which area of your body did you received radiation? Apologies if you mentioned it, I didn't registered it. Even though supplements are not strictly necessary, each individual case is different and you might need some extra supplementation throughout this transitional process.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I work abroad at this stage and am forced to eat canteen style food. I fell out of ketosis twice in the last few weeks. Not because of carbs, but most likely due to an overabundance of protein. Fat is quite hard to come by here, the only source is butter, which I have upped considerably in the last few days - now I am back in full ketosis again.

Oh yeah, canteen style food, sounds familiar. When I eat it, I eat only a piece of meat and then compensate with butter or olive oil, and I also bring my own 1L thermos of bone broth. I drink the bone broth before going to the canteen so I won't be tempted to overeat protein.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yeah! My guess is that it could be a combination of both that diet and radiation. Have you considered having some Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy?

I think this is a very promising solution if it is feasible. When I was a surgeon, I had the opportunity to see the effects of radiation on tissue. It is very damaging indeed, it always leaves fibrous/scar tissue which could understandably make transitioning extra difficult bowel wise. Here is some information about it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2780150/

One must keep in mind that patients with chronic radiation changes often develop dense intra-abdominal adhesions after radiation exposure and have very little free domain in their abdomen.

[...]

Short-Chain Fatty Acids

Short-chain fatty acid (SCFA) enema preparations have also been evaluated as treatment (rather than preventive) agents for radiation proctitis. Because SCFAs act as a major fuel source for colorectal mucosa, it was hypothesized that their addition might be useful in overcoming some of the toxic effects of radiation therapy. Two small randomized, placebo-controlled trials have examined the use of SCFA enema treatments for chronic proctitis. One of these trials found no benefit for topical butyric acid over a 2-week treatment period, but the other study using a butyrate-containing SCFA solution over a 5-week period noted more rapid improvement in symptoms and endoscopic findings compared with placebo controls.60,61 Another small randomized, controlled crossover study again utilizing butyric acid enemas for treatment of acute proctitis noted improvement in symptoms and endoscopic findings in the treatment group.

[...]

Hyperbaric Oxygen

There is low-level evidence supporting the use of hyperbaric oxygen treatments for chronic radiation proctitis. Treatment is usually undertaken at a pressure between 2 and 2.5 atmospheres and requires multiple treatments. Unfortunately, no prospective, randomized studies exist for this treatment approach, although there are numerous small retrospective case series. The largest and most recent report, involving 27 patients, found that two thirds had a partial or good response with respect to either bleeding, ulcer healing, or urgency.76 However, none of the patients reported complete resolution with respect to pain. Other series have reported similar results with partial or complete response rates of 56% to 64% where most other methods of treatment had failed.77,78

Antioxidant Vitamins

A single prospective series reported on the use of vitamins E and C for the treatment of chronic proctitis after a minimum of 4 weeks of therapy.79 The authors noted a significant improvement with respect to bleeding, diarrhea, and urgency, although subjects with rectal pain did not improve. Ten patients were followed up 1 year later and noted continued improvement in their symptoms.

Well, keeping in mind that the above patients' diet was probably atrocious, hence their full blown symptoms, it is still not too bad.

Here is another full text article on the topic which has something about the hyperbaric chamber:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2778112/

Hyperbaric oxygen

Hyperbaric oxygen application appears to be a very effective means of treatment of chronic radiation colitis and non-healing wounds in the involved anorectal region[65]. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy can be considered as a treatment option after failure of standard treatments in patients with severe radiation proctopathy[66]. The rationale for hyperbaric oxygen is the creation of an oxygen gradient in hypoxic tissue that stimulates the creation of new blood vessels.Neoangiogenesis improves the blood supply and reduces the ischemia and necrosis responsible for severe complications. In a retrospective study of patients with severe radiation colitis refractory to medical management, hyperbaric oxygen therapy provided clinical relief and can thus prove to be a useful alternative to conventional treatment in patients with chronic radiation-induced necrosis of the digestive tract[67]. Moreover, in a systematic review of the literature on the application of hyperbaric oxygen prevention and treatment of delayed radiation injuries, all but seven of the 74 publications analyzed reported positive results when hyperbaric oxygen was delivered as treatment for or prevention of delayed radiation injury. These results are particularly impressive in the context of alternative interventions[68]. Hyperbaric oxygen may also be helpful in management of bleeding due to chronic radiation colitis in patients not controlled with conservative measures such as formalin and laser therapy[69,70]. Hyperbaric oxygen treatment and infusion of PG E1 abolishes completely tarry stools and hematuria, and reverses the endoscopic findings of radiation colitis and cystitis[71].

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...In which area of your body did you received radiation? Apologies if you mentioned it, I didn't registered it. Even though supplements are not strictly necessary, each individual case is different and you might need some extra supplementation throughout this transitional process.

[I PM'd Psyche with a few details that I didn't care to include in the public forum.]

I should mention that there are really three things that have happened recently to my gut, starting with the radiation treatment (2007), and then on my doctor's recommendation taking ibuprofen for arthritis in my neck (~2008 - ?), and then taking warfarin for 6 months. The warfarin was during the time when we were experimenting with the USD, before the "Life Without Bread" topic. All of this affected my gut. It wasn't in great shape beforehand, but now I haven't been able to find anything that will settle it down.

I am currently taking only magnesium glycinate and betain HCl. I took L-carnitine, vitamin C, NAC, and alpha lipoic acid for about a year, starting sometime last year. I haven't really noticed a difference starting and stopping any of these supplements except the L-carnitine, which helped with leg cramps (I don't seem to need it now). There were some others that I didn't take for as long. One thing that did help noticeably was eliminating FODMAP foods.

There is a lot of week-to-week variation in the GI symtoms -- gas, discomfort, and constipation -- that doesn't seem to have anything to do with eating patterns. I eat kind-of-local pastured eggs, bacon, local pasture butter, ghee, coconut butter, local organic ground beef and bison, local organic beef short ribs or (not usually local) grass-fed lamb shank (both slow cooked on the bone), local organic calf's liver, organic salami (with no dairy), local organic chard, small amounts of organic dulse (for iodine), and local organic sweet potato. It's as fresh and natural as I can get it. I have eliminated all of these items at different times, with no effect.

For the most part I do well on a KD. While my energy reserve is low, it has actually improved over where it was before the KD. My weight is down to more-or-less the upper end of the "normal" range for my height. My blood sugar issues are no longer noticeable unless I measure with a glucometer, and I can skip meals without any significant problems. I am definitely in fat-burning mode. Eliminating all carbs brings on the two symptoms I mentioned earlier, and possibly increases constipation, but otherwise doesn't make much difference.

My workday has been rather intense lately, as it often is this time of year, but I haven't had the anxiety or other stress-related issues that I had in the past, or the stress-related hunger problem that has caused so much trouble with weight gain. Something is definitely different there, and much improved. Whatever is going on with my gut, I don't believe it is from work-related stress, although that would have been a reasonable guess last year.

A common pattern that I have been noticing more often lately is that I get up, feed the cats and start to fix my own breakfast, and then my GI tract "wakes up" and I start to lose my appetite and feel fatigue. This seems to happen when my stomach responds to the food I am cooking. At about the same time it starts to make HCl, things start to shift around in my lower GI tract and that seems to bring on the loss of appetite and fatigue. I usually am able to go ahead and finish cooking and eat, and eventually the symptoms pass. Bowel movements can produce similar symptoms.

I have read through the information posted above, and I will re-read it carefully as soon as possible (it's "lights out" time for me right now). It certainly sounds promising, and I think I will have questions. Thank you!

 

[Horseofadifferentcolor]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...In which area of your body did you received radiation? Apologies if you mentioned it, I didn't registered it. Even though supplements are not strictly necessary, each individual case is different and you might need some extra supplementation throughout this transitional process.

[I PM'd Psyche with a few details that I didn't care to include in the public forum.]

I should mention that there are really three things that have happened recently to my gut, starting with the radiation treatment (2007), and then on my doctor's recommendation taking ibuprofen for arthritis in my neck (~2008 - ?), and then taking warfarin for 6 months. The warfarin was during the time when we were experimenting with the USD, before the "Life Without Bread" topic. All of this affected my gut. It wasn't in great shape beforehand, but now I haven't been able to find anything that will settle it down.

I am currently taking only magnesium glycinate and betain HCl. I took L-carnitine, vitamin C, NAC, and alpha lipoic acid for about a year, starting sometime last year. I haven't really noticed a difference starting and stopping any of these supplements except the L-carnitine, which helped with leg cramps (I don't seem to need it now). There were some others that I didn't take for as long. One thing that did help noticeably was eliminating FODMAP foods.

There is a lot of week-to-week variation in the GI symtoms -- gas, discomfort, and constipation -- that doesn't seem to have anything to do with eating patterns. I eat kind-of-local pastured eggs, bacon, local pasture butter, ghee, coconut butter, local organic ground beef and bison, local organic beef short ribs or (not usually local) grass-fed lamb shank (both slow cooked on the bone), local organic calf's liver, organic salami (with no dairy), local organic chard, small amounts of organic dulse (for iodine), and local organic sweet potato. It's as fresh and natural as I can get it. I have eliminated all of these items at different times, with no effect.

For the most part I do well on a KD. While my energy reserve is low, it has actually improved over where it was before the KD. My weight is down to more-or-less the upper end of the "normal" range for my height. My blood sugar issues are no longer noticeable unless I measure with a glucometer, and I can skip meals without any significant problems. I am definitely in fat-burning mode. Eliminating all carbs brings on the two symptoms I mentioned earlier, and possibly increases constipation, but otherwise doesn't make much difference.

My workday has been rather intense lately, as it often is this time of year, but I haven't had the anxiety or other stress-related issues that I had in the past, or the stress-related hunger problem that has caused so much trouble with weight gain. Something is definitely different there, and much improved. Whatever is going on with my gut, I don't believe it is from work-related stress, although that would have been a reasonable guess last year.

A common pattern that I have been noticing more often lately is that I get up, feed the cats and start to fix my own breakfast, and then my GI tract "wakes up" and I start to lose my appetite and feel fatigue. This seems to happen when my stomach responds to the food I am cooking. At about the same time it starts to make HCl, things start to shift around in my lower GI tract and that seems to bring on the loss of appetite and fatigue. I usually am able to go ahead and finish cooking and eat, and eventually the symptoms pass. Bowel movements can produce similar symptoms.

I have read through the information posted above, and I will re-read it carefully as soon as possible (it's "lights out" time for me right now). It certainly sounds promising, and I think I will have questions. Thank you!

Megan, from what I have read, as you have been very active on the health threads, I though of this for your digesting. In the beggining of me and hubbies diet a few sweet potatoes where ok,then they were felt. We found a very small amount of blue potatoes (we are like children and loved blue /purlpe potatoe salad) are ok later on. Now, it is a huge problem, even a little. If you still are playing with potatoes this could be part of your discomfort and beef. I remember you talking about the elimination diet, but did you do potatoes( even sweet)? It messes me up for sometimes up to a week. It took a few times to see this though. I can do beef better than before. I guess it is the long chain fatty acid thing. I was never able to eat it before but now it is easier. Potatoes are a huge mess me up, and even my husband grudgingly admits this now.... ughhhgg .

Just some thoughts Megan, cause beef and potatoes are harsh for me or at times anyways.

 

[emilien512]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Folks,

While searching for info on the net, I found this :
http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/saturated-fat-0

And this part his giving me a headache, could you please comment on this one :
--Here's a paradox for you: A high saturated fat intake decreases blood levels of saturated fat. How can this be? Here's how: The saturated fat in your blood comes from both the food you eat and from your liver, which produces saturated fat. The more carbs you eat, the higher your insulin levels climb, which signals your liver to produce saturated fat. If you go on a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop, and so does production of saturated fat.

Is this true?

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan, from what I have read, as you have been very active on the health threads, I though of this for your digesting. In the beggining of me and hubbies diet a few sweet potatoes where ok,then they were felt. We found a very small amount of blue potatoes (we are like children and loved blue /purlpe potatoe salad) are ok later on. Now, it is a huge problem, even a little. If you still are playing with potatoes this could be part of your discomfort and beef. I remember you talking about the elimination diet, but did you do potatoes( even sweet)? It messes me up for sometimes up to a week. It took a few times to see this though. I can do beef better than before. I guess it is the long chain fatty acid thing. I was never able to eat it before but now it is easier. Potatoes are a huge mess me up, and even my husband grudgingly admits this now.... ughhhgg .

Just some thoughts Megan, cause beef and potatoes are harsh for me or at times anyways.

I have eliminated sweet potatoes for months at a time, without noticing any difference in how I felt. I originally eliminated them because they were a no-no for doing an Atkins-type induction. They are one of the notorious "safe starches," and I have used them to experiment with the effects of different carb intakes between zero and 50 g/d. I am eliminating them again now, though, and I didn't have any this morning.

One thing dawned on me this morning -- though it was before dawn :) -- that while I have not done quite as well lately after I lowered my carb intake, I also had quit most of the supplements I was taking, both because they didn't seem to do anything (and had undesirable ingredients) and because of the expense. If some of those supplements were making a subtle difference, that could account for it.

I returned to taking NAC and alpha lipoic acid this morning. While I used to take them as part of a "detox cocktail" on an empty stomach when I first got up, this time I am taking them with breakfast, since they sometimes used to upset my stomach. I will try to find brands online without magnesium stearate or "vegetable" capsules (which may contain phthalate!)

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I should mention that there are really three things that have happened recently to my gut, starting with the radiation treatment (2007), and then on my doctor's recommendation taking ibuprofen for arthritis in my neck (~2008 - ?), and then taking warfarin for 6 months. The warfarin was during the time when we were experimenting with the USD, before the "Life Without Bread" topic. All of this affected my gut. It wasn't in great shape beforehand, but now I haven't been able to find anything that will settle it down.

It must have been quite a difficult experience for you. I hope you find your balance once again soon. You deserve it.

Warfarin was first introduced as a pesticide against rats and mice and according to wiki, and it is still used for this purpose. It is completely insane that it is given like candy for certain conditions. Talking about poisoning people!

There is a lot of week-to-week variation in the GI symtoms -- gas, discomfort, and constipation -- that doesn't seem to have anything to do with eating patterns.

IMO, the pattern coincides with a gut that has been "frozen" by radiation, that is, there really is scar tissue and fragile tissues in your digestive system, and my guess is that the only reason you haven't seen the full blown side effects reported after radiation is because of your efforts and progress with the diet which helps heal tissues. I would ask your health practitioner to refer to you to a hyperbaric center so it would be covered by insurance.

You are making and will make much progress with the diet, but when it comes to "scar" tissue, I think you will benefit from the help of something like hyperbaric treatments.

Supplements like ALA might benefit you even though you don't notice effects. What it does is repair damaged DNA among other things, and it will help you stabilize your blood sugar levels as well.

I would also use DMSO rose cream and rub it in my abdomen. It is great stuff.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

If you go on a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop, and so does production of saturated fat.

Is this true?

If you read the Life Without Bread thread here on the health forum, you'll find this concept further expanded. This is why these kinds of diets heal diabetes type 2 and metabolic syndromes which includes insulin resistance, high cholesterol levels, obesity and so forth. It is logical that it will do so. What is illogical is to load a person with carbs that only perpetuates and aggravates their problems. A person who is sensitive to carbs should eliminate them in order to heal. That is why a great majority of our world is intolerant to carbohydrates (pre-diabetes). The mainstream recommended diet looks ALL wrong from the physiological and biochemical perspective which spans for thousands of years. We are made to eat fats and meat.

 

[Tchaka]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Has anybody found a reasonably priced source for "precision xtra" ketone strips. i recently purchased a meter for $20 but unfortunately the "one doller per strip on ebay" price suggested by the article in this thread, seems to be no more, possibly due to our efforts here ;)

cheapest I can find is 10 for $50. I'll contemplate just biting the bullet on this one. just thought i'd ask.

Also, and i don't recall anyone reporting this and after a bit of research here and on the web, there seem to be no mentions of similar pain but I had the strangest symptom last night where the lower half of the top of my thighs felt like they had semi infected cat scratches all over them several times throughout the night(that's the only way i can think to describe it). It was rather uncomfortable, but if I waited, it eventually subsided. When I went to feel them, there was nothing, but the flesh itself was a bit numb, like coming down off of novacain. There is also no visible sign of anything abnormal. The pain lingered into the morning when i woke up and was only mostly gone after doing EE (I sit on a knee stool and suspect that the way this stretched my thighs was helpful to alleviate the problem). But even stranger still, the feeling lingers now, almos 8 hours later.

Nothing i can't live with, just strange especially when others are feeling bone pain in there thighs. the only thing i did different is have one bite of a half-thumb sized piece of chicken tikka masala, but previous to the KD, I ate that stuff all the time, plus i even wiped off all the sauce. I also drink spiced teas all the time, so i doubt it was the spicing. Maybe it's just my own personal symptom of the transition. thought it was worth the mention.