Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

There is no definite number for how many grams of glucose we burn in a day. Obviously, it depends on size but also on metabolic efficiency. It seems to be a substantial number. When I Google around, I see numbers thrown out like 80 g/d just for the brain, unless keto-adapted in which case it might be more like 25 g/d with ketones making up the rest. But the brain is just one part of the picture.

The "typical" numbers I see for total glucose grams per day are in the range of 130-160. Keto-adaptation can lower that quite a bit, but the liver is still going to have quite a bit of work to do. In addition, I am guessing that someone like me that doesn't do much physically and burns maybe 1800 kcal/day or less is going to need less glucose than somebody that burns through 3500 kcal/day.

Making glucose from protein isn't all that efficient, as I recall, and I imagine there is some mess (toxic byproducts) to clean up as well. I have read an interesting blog post on this subject recently. If I come across it again, I will post it.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

People experience problems going keto may have other things that they struggle with that might prevent them of reaping the full benefits of a KD - heavy metal toxicity comes to mind as an example.

But as said before, in the end I believe that everyone needs to tweak his or her own diet to get the optimal result, and this will be different for every person up to a degree.

Yes, so true. And I think you've hit on one of the major factors: heavy metals. The difference I feel after doing a short round of EDTA is amazing, so it seems clear that the metals somehow block energy metabolism. And, as has been noted (think it was Sherry Rogers), when energy is compromised, the body begins to shut down systems so as to give what energy is available to essential functions.

All healing and rebuilding requires energy, so if a person isn't healing or rebuilding or recovering, I would say it is fundamentally an energy problem. Plus, there is that paper we all read much earlier in the thread that explains the energy issues, carb vs fat metabolism, in excruciating detail with many illustrations.

Most of us are so damaged by numerous factors including our own diets, the diets of our parents (epigenetics) the environmental toxicity, that it's like trying to catch a dozen leaks from a roof with a single bucket.

So far, we've had the most dramatic changes from: 1) cutting out gluten and dairy; 2) the over-three-months strict ketogenic/exercise experiment; 3) metal detoxing. Thing is, you really can't do everything at once with a broken system. We aren't cars that you can put up on the rack and change out the engine! It's like turning an ocean liner around! The forward momentum just keeps you sliding over the water in the wrong direction for awhile even while you are turning.

 

[Goemon_]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have follow the KD for several month, less and less strungling with protein cravings.

I seem to have get rid of that cravings now for several weeks.

During those last weeks of VLCD, I was eating 25g of protein per meal : 2 meals by day 3 times a week / 3 meals by day the 4 other days.
I was eating meat, fish, organs, bone broth, salt and maybe 1g of turmeric/cinamon per day in water. (supplement : magnesium citrate powder - 2 teaspoon before bed time). So, I was, for sure, below 5g of sugar a day.

I was doing 1 hour of walking 3 days a week and 20 minutes of heavy lifting HIIT 3 days a week (same day of IF : those days was passing like that : eating at 7PM the day before, get up arround 6AM do the HIIT at 10:10 AM - skipping breakfast - eat at 11PM and then around 6PM - going to bed arround 10PM/11PM).

I have loose some fat during that period but don't seems to have loose muscle, on the contrary I probably have take on a little.

My weight is arround 67kg.

The better capacity for protein to transform into sugar I have heard of is 50%. So, during that period if I had transform every protein in sugar that would have make 25g of sugar some days and 37,5 the other days. And that would mean I didn't use protein for the protein, but only to get sugar.

So, IMO we don't need a lot of sugar or we may explore the capacity of transforming fat into sugar.

However, I probably should experiment for a longer period of time.

FWIW, Jérôme

 

[Goemon_]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I forget to mention lard and ghee in my foodlist.

 

[happyliza]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for the pointers. I need to refresh what I have learned so far and update again now that I am back on the regime.

Despite regular aerobic exercise in the sea, supplements and slowly cutting things out again, I have noticed muscle wastage and weakness i the muscles for the first time. I also lost 3 kilos within 3 weeks again leaving me at my lowest optimal weight of 9.1 stone. Skin has also gone saggy all over I do a lot of walking with my dog and perspire alot in the heat, possible extra contributor to weight loss. However I do drink alot of water to compensate as well as always put extra himalyan rock salt on everything too.

I am starting the detox but will not fast in this heat. Obviously it will take a long time before I introduce foods. It is my intention to build up on the fats that I eat, keep to about 3ozs of meat/fish/chicken per meal with very low carbs of onions, herbs, mushrooms, avocado, eggs. Ialso aim to keep a tin of sardines and some coconut oil for emergencies when I am out and about. Not all meat etc is organic as sourcing this is difficult here bar raise myown stock one day. I also wish to take up EE again now that I am in a better routine.

What I have to watch is the long term healing of leaky gut, possible sluggish liver as well as a feeling of inflammation/bloating of my stomach. Left knee and right shoulder pain/inflammation still have to be investigated once I have some funds. Apart from that I am not aware of any other 'symptoms' now. I have stopped the Fera Globin a week ago for fear of taking in too much iron. I still have to have blood test to confirm that the red blood cell count has improved now.

Luckily no problems with bowels now.

I certainly feel more confident this time around and will pay closer attention to my body, mental and emotional feedback. Hopefully it will calm the runaway horses a bit more as witnessed much emtional splitting this week and how detrimental it was for me. LUCKILY I ran away to some emotional space to calm down before I did any external damage to my relationship. A big lesson in how I was 'involved/the cause' in many of my own traumas.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...The better capacity for protein to transform into sugar I have heard of is 50%. So, during that period if I had transform every protein in sugar that would have make 25g of sugar some days and 37,5 the other days. And that would mean I didn't use protein for the protein, but only to get sugar.

So, IMO we don't need a lot of sugar or we may explore the capacity of transforming fat into sugar...

The substrates used for gluconeogenesis (GNG) include specific amino acids rather than protein per se, and I suppose that might have to do with the relative inefficiency. I wish I could take a year off to study basic biochemistry; a lot more of this would make sense. As it is, when I learn something new I seem to forget something old. In mammals GNG occurs in the liver, kidney, and intestines, and the amino acids used depend on the organ. Certain fatty acids can contribute to the process as well, I believe, but I don't think it is clear at this point that fat can be transformed to glucose (in bulk) in humans. Glycerol, however, is a GNG substrate.

I was asking earlier if anyone knew how much GNG adds to our protein intake requirements, and nobody seemed to know. If you end up short on protein intake then your body is going to obtain it from itself -- muscles and organs. This kind of wasting is common with low-calorie carb-based weight loss diets, but should not occur with a VLC KD with adequate protein intake. The question, however, is "what is adequate," and I just don't know. Right now I am going by appetite as to how much protein I consume (which turns out to be ~0.8g/kg, the RDA), and watching for unexpected ongoing weight loss. But if you have unexplained weight loss (I don't) then what does it mean?

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have finally found a good brand of digestive enzymes (GiPro Prozymes - no dairy, soy, etc.) and have been taking them for a number of days now. I am using information from scdlifestyle.com to identify good-quality supplements and to determine whether to take them and how much to take. I did their at-home stomach acid test (1/4 tsp of baking soda in 4 oz of water, chug it, and see how long it takes to burp). I didn't burp at all, which is not a good sign -- it should come within a couple of minutes or so. After that I resumed betaine HCL as well, and I have been increasing the dosage to try to find a good level according to the instructions I have.

My goal is to find a "good zone" where my GI tract settles down and I start to feel good again on a regular basis. I am not there yet.

I have been struggling to rebalance my KD after tweaking it to conform to the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD). There weren't too many changes, but I ended up cutting out coffee (for now) and, more importantly, the salami that I was using for a snack when I needed something more than two meals in a day but not a full third meal.

I may end up just having to cook a couple of ounces of ground meat on those days, since every processed meat that keeps well in the fridge is suspect with respect to SCD. The other foods I have that keep well -- such as nuts -- are relatively high in carbs (although still VLC by most people's standards) and don't seem to be doing me a lot of good either.

The organic uncured salami I was buying is probably OK, but I don't have any way yet to tell. It is made with dextrose, which itself is OK with SCD, but commercial dextrose often contains other junk that doesn't require labeling and that may be incompatible with SCD. If I can find my "good zone" then I can retest the salami and determine if it is OK or not.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

PBPM suggests to take as much HCl as it takes to feel a heat sensation in the stomach.

I wish I had known about that stomach acid test sooner! I will have to see for myself.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

PBPM suggests to take as much HCl as it takes to feel a heat sensation in the stomach.

I wish I had known about that stomach acid test sooner! I will have to see for myself.

These guys say until you feel a "burn." I'm taking 5 capsules at breakfast and still not feeling a thing. At the moment I am just glad to have found something, anything, that I had missed before.

Of course stomach acid serves as a barrier to pathogenic invaders and when it is low, guess what.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...I wish I had known about that stomach acid test sooner! I will have to see for myself.

By the way, I left out one important detail. Do it on arising, before putting anything else in your mouth. Better yet, read this post which contains much more information.

I wonder what my doctor will think if I ask for a Heidelberg test? There is one way to find out...

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm thinking that low stomach acid might be an issue for a lot of people so having the Betaine on hand to test it out could be helpful.

 

[sebbe]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

For stomach acid test, i see, for me, several parameters.

If i eat 2 eggs, i know i can take 2x900mg of hcl. Sometimes, even with only 2, it burns me. Sometimes no at all.

It is the same thing with fish. I like fish because of that : it is always light for stomach.

But for meat, i can take 3, 4 or 5 x 900 mg of hcl, and my stomach feels impassive, stoic. I remember one time to have taken 7 x 900mg with a red meat...nothing. Same thing with all meats. So i am a big consumer of hcl. If i don't take it, my digestion is very very long : 8 or 9 hours!

When i take alcalin things like baking soda, or even citrates, before the meal, it is spectacular : my stomach works and become acid. The coffee has the same effect after the meal.

If i take vinegar before or during the meal, it is disastrous.

So with these things, i think i have a stomach with low acid and hcl is very helpful.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just a heads up that, as Megan had posted recently in the Hemochromatosis and Autoimmune Conditions thread, Betaine HCl can enhance iron absorption:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,20265.msg426428.html#msg426428

Also from the talk, betaine HCL enhances iron absorption!

The references for the talk can be found here: _http://chriskresser.com/ahs12

You can also read the three immediate preceding posts by Megan about Kresser's AHS 12 talk (and it's worth watching it, just under 37 minutes long, and a good reference on iron issues). So those with iron overload issues should perhaps proceed with caution with betaine HCl.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think I'll take the iron absorption and just donate regularly, in exchange for the digestion working better.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think I'll take the iron absorption and just donate regularly, in exchange for the digestion working better.

I have gotten the impression that people are getting a bit anxious and are trying to limit iron absorption, and - as Laura pointed out - possibly to the detriment of good functioning of other organ systems.

This has partially been discussed earlier in the thread, but it is difficult, and probably not efficacious, to try to limit iron absorption. We have two very efficent tools to regulate iron: blood donation and EDTA chelation therapy (in whatever form). While there is initially a certain effort to be made to reduce chronically elevated iron levels and thus reduce total body iron stores, once you have achieved this, I think that it won't be all too hard to maintain optimal levels - a few blood donations a year and some EDTA cycles here and there. If you then test iron every 6 - 12 months, you should be fine.

If you struggle to access facilities that check your blood, another (indirect) way of checking iron stores is to see what the haemoglobin is doing, when you donate blood - if it is around the same as last time, your iron is either high or adequate and it's ok to donate. If however it starts to fall (even if it is still within the "normal" range), this may indicate an iron deficiency - you can then order an iron panel and if you confirm low iron stores, simply stop doing the donations for a while, take vitamin C and in no time your iron will be normal again. Just remember, that every test has some inherent imprecision, so I wouldn't take any action before a test result has changed by more than 10 - 20% from baseline.

Once my iron stores are under control I will again start myself on high-dose vitamin C and see how my iron stores behave ...