Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

This thread is clipping along at a heck of a rate, and I'm just now caught up, but I wanted to address something from a couple of pages back.

Probiotic tablets are pretty much worthless if they are not "enteric coated" - they dissolve in the stomach and never make it "further south".

This is actually untrue. There is a great deal of research out there that shows that the probiotic strains that are native to the human system have the ability to survive the digestive process. Think about it - the good bacteria in fermented foods like sauerkraut aren't enteric coated, yet their benefit to imbalanced digestive systems is well documented.

I'm sorry I don't have studies at the ready for this. I had a training with a guy named Nigel Plummer, the head probiotic research guy from Genestra (makers of the HMF line of probiotics) awhile back; he's actually got a PhD in microbial physiology. He showed us studies that showed a clear positive adjustment in the bacterial content of the stool of those taking probiotics that weren't enteric coated. It all depends on the strains used, some being more resistant to acidic environments than others. His opinion was that enteric coatings weren't necessary if you're using human-sourced strains and, until they could find an enteric coating method that didn't contain pthalates, it was a much better option to go without.

One thing he did say, however, is that you should always take your probiotic with food. The food helps to buffer the bacteria from the acid, or so it's theorized, allowing them to complete the journey unhindered.

FWIW.

I know, it's a controversial issue ... I would have to read the studies to make up my mind. To be honest I haven't studied this issue in depth.

However two things come to mind:
1) Plummer is a bit in the same position as all the PhDs in pharmaceutical companies - essentially their message is self-serving. I am not saying that he is wrong, just that studies coming from this end need to be evaluated very carefully.
2) The benefits of sauerkraut may well lie elsewhere than in the bacterias travelling down the GI tract. It might be in the fact that fermentation changes many substances to make them more digestible to gut bacteria already there.

I am not saying that what you say is incorrect, I just would have to really dig all this stuff up to get a clear idea about it, which at this present time I am unable to do - so probably I need to retract this somewhat unqualified statement.

Good points. :)
Obviously it's a complicated issue and the science is far from settled. I don't pretend to have the answers either, just passing on my understanding as it stands currently.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...This isn't a hard and fast rule, mind you - there are trillions of different types of bacteria in complicated relationships, both antagonistic and cooperative...

Yes, and we've barely begun to study them. I would guess that a lot of the information out there now is wrong. And don't forget that gut bacteria are only one type of colony on which we depend. The upper GI tract uses yeasts. We should have large colonies of bacteria on the skin as well, if we don't kill them off with everything from antibacterial lotions to antibacterial clothing, and in our mouths if we don't kill them off with fluoride and other chemicals, and in plenty of other places we probably don't talk about much.

When you take a system that has worked for many millions of years and countless species and "fix" it the way we have, things break. We're the only species that can't seem to tolerate microbes in our environment very well. I wonder why? Is it because we are so "advanced" that we get sick easily? I think I have actually heard versions of that one, somewhere when I was growing up. People explain away what they don't understand.

I think we need to step back from science and apply common sense, although that doesn't necessarily lead to simple solutions. We are in a pickle now because we have been pursuing an unsustainable way of life for millennia, treating limited resources as if they were infinite. Filthy, overcrowded cities are traceable to it, and "anti-germ" medical technology is traceable to that, treating the symptoms instead of the causes, targeting the microorganisms with vaccines and antibiotics and taking credit for what has really been accomplished through common-sense improvements in sanitation, while making things worse and worse.

I think probiotics can be useful as an intervention, and I don't know how they pass through the stomach but they do. Maybe it's the sheer numbers. What I expect will develop is more use of "prebiotic" foods to improve the gut environment so that it can support the organisms it needs to function.

But there is still the problem of immune systems that can't do their job in a normal "dirty" environment. Immune systems need to be challenged when we are developing so that they can train. They actually need to be challenged by parasites, specifically, to avoid problems with autoimmunity although of course they need to be exposed to many other things as well. Hopefully there is some possibility of improvement later in life for kids that are being raised now in a "sanitized" environment. I don't know. It is better not to have to find out.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I had the opportunity to listen to a lecture from one of the pioneers of human strains in the form of Lactobacillus GG which is a patent of a specific strain of L. rhamnosus. It is supposed to be more acid and bile stable, and it has more avidity for human intestinal cells. It also has little “hairs”(pili) that helps it stick to the inner lining of the digestive system.

It also acts as the good guy which promotes the proliferation of other good bacteria in the neighborhood and it survives stomach acidity, making it likely to reach the intestinal walls where it’s needed the most.

Below are some assorted studies and quotes. Not bad considering that these people probably were on gluten, dairy and who knows what else:

The gut contains a diverse bacterial flora that is acquired at birth and has a number of physiological functions. Administration of prebiotics or probiotics may favourably alter this gut microflora. Prebiotics are poorly digested oligosaccharides that promote the growth of desirable bacteria and may have other beneficial gastrointestinal and systemic effects. Probiotics are “helpful” human bacteria that provide a variety of health benefits when administered exogenously. Probiotics produce beneficial effects in the prevention and treatment of traveller’s diarrhoea, viral diarrhoea, and diarrhoea in day care centres. Moreover, probiotics have been shown to reduce relapses associated with Clostridium difficile, and Lactobacilli are effective in the prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhoea. Probiotics may also be efficacious in the treatment of gastroenteritis. Clinical studies of probiotics in inflammatory bowel disease have proved disappointing, but beneficial effects in adults with irritable bowel syndrome have been reported with Bifidobacterium infantis 35624. Lactobacilli GG reduces the incidence of gastrointestinal symptoms and gut permeability in patients with atopic dermatitis, and administration of probiotics reduces the frequency and severity of atopic eczema when administered to pregnant women and then to newborn infants. In conclusion, probiotics are effective in the treatment and/or prevention of a number of conditions, including diarrhoea, irritable bowel syndrome and atopic dermatitis, and the product used should be selected based on the particular indication. [Vanderhoof JA.. Probiotics in allergy management. J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr.2008 Nov;47 Suppl 2:S38-40.]

“The most extensive studies of the modification of allergic reactions have been reported for atopic eczema with Lactobacillus GG as the probiotic”[...] “Randomized double-blind studies have provided evidence of probiotic effectiveness for the treatment and prevention of acute diarrhea and antibiotic-induced diarrhea, as well as for the prevention of cow milk–induced food allergy in infants and young children. Research studies have also provided evidence of effectiveness for the prevention of traveler’s diarrhea, relapsing Clostridium difficile–induced colitis, and urinary tract infections. There are also studies indicating that probiotics may be useful for prevention of respiratory infections in children, dental caries, irritable bowel syndrome, and inflammatory bowel disease. Areas of future interest for the application of probiotics include colon and bladder cancers, diabetes, and rheumatoid arthritis. The probiotics with the greatest number of proven benefits are Lactobacillus rhamnosus strain GG and Saccharomyces boulardii.” [B.R. Goldin, S.L. Gorbach. Clinical Indications for Probiotics: An Overview. Clin Infect Dis. (2008) 46 (Supplement 2): S96-S100.]

It is estimated that ventilator-associated pneumonia (VAP) complicates the care of up to 30% of patients receiving mechanical ventilation. Patients with VAP have increased morbidity, mortality, and hospital costs as well as prolonged intensive care unit (ICU) and hospital lengths of stay and increased costs [...] Probiotic prophylaxis of VAP using Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG appears safe and efficacious in a select population of patients who are at very high risk for contracting VAP. This therapy may also offer an opportunity to prevent related ICU complications, such as C. difficile and ICU-associated diarrhea. Ultimately, probiotics may fulfill a role in antimicrobial stewardship programs given the reductions in antibiotic consumption[Morrow LE, Kollef MH, Casale TB. Probiotic prophylaxis of ventilator-associated pneumonia: a blinded, randomized, controlled trial. Am J Respir Crit Care Med. 2010 Oct 15;182(8):1058-64.]

 

[SMM]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...
I'm still making my way through the thread but have noticed increased salivation after consuming fats...

Me too.

...any thoughts?

Chew the fat, if possible? Sounds to me like it could be lingual lipase/salival secretion trying to catch up with fat you've swallowed quickly:


_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingual_lipase

Lingual lipase is a member of a family of digestive enzymes called lipases... that... hydrolyze long-chain triglycerides into partial glycerides and free fatty acids. The enzyme, released into the mouth along with the saliva, catalyzes the first reaction in the digestion of dietary lipid, with diglycerides being the primary reaction product.[1] However, due to the unique characteristics of lingual lipase, including a pH optimum 4.5 -5.4 and its ability to catalyze reactions without bile salts, the lipolytic activity continues through to the stomach [and into the duodenum? see below].[2] Enzyme release is signaled by autonomic nervous system [i.e. "involuntarily" -- making you salivate?]after ingestion, at which time the serous glands under the circumvallate and foliate papillae on the surface of the tongue [3] secrete lingual lipase to the grooves of the circumvallate and foliate papillae. The hydrolysis of the dietary fats is essential for fat absorption by the small intestine, as long chain triacyglycerides cannot be absorbed, and as much as 30% of fat is hydrolyzed within 1 to 20 minutes of ingestion by lingual lipase alone.[2]

That last assertion with the 30% number references a book on cystic fibrosis, in which pancreatic secretions (amongst other things) are adversely affected. I imagine they may have been looking at fat digestion in CF patients with exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (or complete blockage, where there'd be no pancreatic lipase released to the duodenum), and inferring that the fat they could absorb was being digested by other lipases.

Then there's this article from the journal Nutrition in 1990 (and what could be better than a mainstream nutrition article from 23 years ago?) which mentions gastric lipase, secreted by the stomach:

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3541090

Lingual and gastric lipases.

Hamosh M.


Source

Department of Pediatrics, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, DC 20007.


Abstract


The 1973 discovery of lingual lipase, which is secreted by lingual serous glands and hydrolyzes medium- and long-chain triglycerides in the stomach [and the mouth?], has renewed interest in the gastric phase of fat digestion. In humans, lipase is present in the serous (von Ebner) glands of the tongue, where it is localized in zymogen granules. In the stomach, the highest lipase activity is in the body [of the stomach]. By immunocytochemistry, gastric lipase is confined to the chief cells of the fundic mucosa and is colocalized with pepsin. Human lipase purified from lingual serous glands or gastric juice has a MW of 45k to 51K but tends to aggregate (MW 270-300K and 500K) and is highly hydrophobic. Secretion of gastric lipase appears to be stimulated by at least two receptor mechanisms. It has been suggested that the products of gastric lipolysis maintain the sterility of the gastrointestinal tract[by making soap?]. These enzymes are essential for the digestion of milk fat in the newborn because, contrary to other digestive lipases (pancreatic or milk digestive lipase), lingual and gastric lipases can penetrate into the milk fat globule and initiate the digestive process. Lingual and gastric lipase activity has been found in subjects with cystic fibrosis and appears to continue in the upper small intestine [duodenum] in these patients, perhaps replacing some of the missing pancreatic lipase. It is possible that lingual and gastric lipase supplements would be more effective in preventing steatorrhea in these patients than are the pancreatic enzyme supplements now given. The same therapeutic utility might be obtained in patients with alcoholic pancreatic insufficiency.

Here's another old article (1984) that puts the number at 10-30% of dietary fat hydrolyzed by lingual lipase in the stomach (perhaps they're referencing a common source? I can't see these entire articles, only the abstracts):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3541090

Fat digestion by lingual lipase: mechanism of lipolysis in the stomach and upper small intestine.

Liao TH, Hamosh P, Hamosh M.


Abstract


Ten to 30% of dietary fat is hydrolyzed in the stomach by lingual lipase, an enzyme secreted from lingual serous glands. We investigated the substrate specificity of this enzyme as well as the potential of lingual lipase to act in the upper small intestine i.e., in the presence of bile salts and lecithin. The data presented show that partially purified preparations of rat lingual lipase and the lipase in gastric aspirates of newborn infants have identical substrate specificity: medium-chain triglycerides were hydrolyzed at rates 5-8-fold higher than long-chain triglycerides[perhaps coconut oil could be good for oil pulling?]; the rat and human enzymes do not hydrolyze the ester bond of lecithin or cholesteryl-ester. In contrast to pancreatic lipase, the hydrolysis of triglycerides by lingual lipase is not inhibited by lecithin. But, similar to pancreatic lipase the activity of lingual lipase is inhibited by bile salts, the extent of inhibition varying with its nature and concentration. This inactivation is not prevented by colipase but is partially averted by lipids and protein, suggesting that lingual lipase can remain active in the duodenum. The pH optimum of the enzyme (2.2-6.5 in the rat and 3.5-6.0 in human gastric aspirates) is compatible with continued activity in the upper small intestine, especially during the neonatal period, when the luminal pH is under 6.5. The marked variation in lipase activity levels in gastric aspirates of newborn infants is probably due to individual variations in enzyme amounts. The characteristics of the lipase are however identical in infants with low, intermediate or high activity levels.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

So this last article makes me wonder about the advice to take bile salts with meals. Perhaps a large fatty meal with protein can offset the inhibition (of lingual lipase) by the bile salts? Seems like it might be a good idea to wait a while (the wiki article states the fat is hydrolyzed within 1-20 minutes). If you're taking pancreatin (i.e. pancreatic lipase) with the meal to jump start fat digestion the bile salts could inhibit the enzyme action while in the stomach, but that should be alleviated once it gets to the colipase (the protein coenzyme that helps pancreatic lipase overcome bile salt inhibition of triglyceride hydrolysis) available in the small intestine. Then again, maybe a little enzyme inhibition (they would still be working, albeit slower) is outweighed by the fats being more emulsified by the bile salts? Anyway, makes me wonder

It's decreased significantly, perhaps it was just adjusting to increased fat, required more enzymes thus producing more saliva...?
I'm wondering whether it's worth taking ox bile supplements; Betaine HCL seems to be doing a pretty good job at the moment. I've heard others have had adverse reactions to ox bile, & I'd probably be better off getting some potassium, activated charcoal or EDTA supplementation since digestive issues have sort of subsided since I thought it'd be worth taking ox bile.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I had the opportunity to listen to a lecture from one of the pioneers of human strains in the form of Lactobacillus GG which is a patent of a specific strain of L. rhamnosus. It is supposed to be more acid and bile stable, and it has more avidity for human intestinal cells. It also has little “hairs”(pili) that helps it stick to the inner lining of the digestive system.

It also acts as the good guy which promotes the proliferation of other good bacteria in the neighborhood and it survives stomach acidity, making it likely to reach the intestinal walls where it’s needed the most.

Below are some assorted studies and quotes. Not bad considering that these people probably were on gluten, dairy and who knows what else:

Lactobacillus GG does look quite promising. I've had a few customers come into my store asking about it. Unfortunately, it seems like it's only available in the U.S. at the moment (brand name is Culturelle). It's a good example of a human strain that isn't found in fermented foods or soil that's usually passed from the mother to the infant during birth. However, cesarean births, rampant antibiotic use, etc. will lead to many who've never had the opportunity to be inoculated with it or have lost much of what should actually be there.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I had the opportunity to listen to a lecture from one of the pioneers of human strains in the form of Lactobacillus GG which is a patent of a specific strain of L. rhamnosus. It is supposed to be more acid and bile stable, and it has more avidity for human intestinal cells. It also has little “hairs”(pili) that helps it stick to the inner lining of the digestive system.

It also acts as the good guy which promotes the proliferation of other good bacteria in the neighborhood and it survives stomach acidity, making it likely to reach the intestinal walls where it’s needed the most.

Below are some assorted studies and quotes. Not bad considering that these people probably were on gluten, dairy and who knows what else:

Lactobacillus GG does look quite promising. I've had a few customers come into my store asking about it. Unfortunately, it seems like it's only available in the U.S. at the moment (brand name is Culturelle). It's a good example of a human strain that isn't found in fermented foods or soil that's usually passed from the mother to the infant during birth. However, cesarean births, rampant antibiotic use, etc. will lead to many who've never had the opportunity to be inoculated with it or have lost much of what should actually be there.

I think it is very promising, mostly because I had a chance of researching it and hearing one of it's pioneers share his lifetime experience with it. He had several cases, "before and after". I was pleasantly shocked. I think this probiotic is a good start for both kids and adults with health problems who are starting to change their diet. It would speed up the regeneration of the gut so to speak.

He said that their data about lactobacillus gg increasing the friendly neighborhood was not published yet (the talk was a few months ago), but it was the most surprising result he expected to see. That study is/was carried out in several countries with people in all kinds of diets. Who knows, we'll have to wait and see. That will mean that taking L. rhamnosus (gg) will be like an equivalent of taking several different strains.

But it would be interesting to see if other strains are capable of this and if we could add these strains for fermenting purposes and so forth.

Anyway, as a timely thing, here is a probiotic update just pubished in sott:

The benefits of probiotics--more than ever
http://www.sott.net/article/264903-The-benefits-of-probiotics-more-than-ever

:D

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I had the opportunity to listen to a lecture from one of the pioneers of human strains in the form of Lactobacillus GG which is a patent of a specific strain of L. rhamnosus. It is supposed to be more acid and bile stable, and it has more avidity for human intestinal cells. It also has little “hairs”(pili) that helps it stick to the inner lining of the digestive system.

It also acts as the good guy which promotes the proliferation of other good bacteria in the neighborhood and it survives stomach acidity, making it likely to reach the intestinal walls where it’s needed the most..

We could use more little guys like that. :)

I am also glad to see a mention of "prebiotics." They represent more of a long-term need, though (they used to just be a part of what we called "food", back when food was food), and can actually cause trouble when the gut is out of whack. So what I see developing is a two-phase approach where probiotics are used to help stabilize and improve the condition of the gut, and prebiotics are introduced later to maintain the progress made. Continuing to flood the gut with probiotics after it has recovered might not have the intended consequences, while continuing to feed with prebiotics is highly sustainable.

I don't think there is any simple B&W way to approach this. For some people, minimizing "residue" foods, and prebiotics with them, may be the only thing that works. For others, something else may be the only thing that works. We are barely at the threshold of understanding how our system works.

One thing I didn't think to mention earlier is that one of the papers I read this weekend (I think it was the Veech paper but I am not sure) talked about flaws in pharmaceutical models. One author, anyway, seems to understand that problem and isn't afraid to write about it in a published journal. Much research is funded by pharmaceutical companies or the companies that control them, and flawed models are not exactly a problem in that industry. If your model is flawed but you can convince people they need your product anyway, all it means is more disease and more profit. So bring on the flaws.

So we get to pick through the bits and pieces of research that don't appear to be too badly flawed, looking for useful information. That's why I keep having to refer back to common sense to keep from going crazy.

 

[Horseofadifferentcolor]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Happyliza, it sounds like you are doing too much, making too many changes, expecting a damaged system to respond too fast. Why don't you just back up and regroup? Eat bacon for breakfast - crispy, not too fatty. Or a nice sausage. Eating in the morning is crucial for straightening out the adrenals.

Ditch the coffee. It is just keeping the adrenals stressed.

The rest of the time, eat not-too-fatty veal and a bit of instant mashed potatoes. We've found that the instant variety are very soothing to the digestion without all the anti-nutrients of nightshades. You can have 3/4 cup of the instant potatoes with every meal until things settle down.

Stop with all the supplements and stuff for the moment except for a very select few. Do find which digestive supplement helps you most. Just stabilize and then begin again very, very slowly.

I think that's very good advice! And the last thing somebody with digestive problems needs is a strict set of do's and don'ts to follow based upon someone else's needs. Be flexible and try stuff, intelligently, while hopefully researching and learning about what might work from people that value objectivity.

One thing I have recently been reminded about concerning supplements is that when you stop them all, you do run the risk of cutting out a few that were actually doing something for you, but that's OK. Once you see how you do without any, you can take a hard look at symptoms and decide if anything that stands out that could be addressed with a single supplement.

I was reminded of this going through the SCD Lifestyle "digestive troubleshooting" videos (for sale at scdlifestyle.com), one of which encourages you to start with a SINGLE supplement tweak, based on symptoms, and see how it goes. I think there are 10 different supplements/tweaks to choose from in the video, or something like that.

Taking a bunch of supportive supplements at the start of a healing diet makes sense, because you need to see results soon, and you don't know exactly what to take. After that, though, ditching everything and then re-introducing based upon whether it can be seen to make a difference makes sense. It's too easy to just continue on with a bunch of stuff, "hoping" for more improvement.

By the way, there are also supplements that you can take like food to augment your dietary needs. They don't necessarily have to be tested for results the same way, although it can be good to eliminate and reintroduce them to make sure there isn't something in them to which you react. You may not see a difference, however, unless you were extremely deficient in something. My supplements in this category currently include magnesium glycinate, vitamin D (D3), sodium ascorbate, and MSM, in moderate to small doses.

Megan, you had mentioned on the DMSO vs MSM thread that you were using the MSM. I was wondering if you could tell me how it is working for you. I have the oral crystal/powder and some lotion. I have noticed a small difference in healing time on scratches and has helped with the inflammation that is still present in my knees at times. I have been talking a spoon full every other day and have been doing that for two weeks now. I am ready to up my dose for experiment and was wondering how much you have tried at one time and the effects it had. Thanks

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Megan, you had mentioned on the DMSO vs MSM thread that you were using the MSM. I was wondering if you could tell me how it is working for you. I have the oral crystal/powder and some lotion. I have noticed a small difference in healing time on scratches and has helped with the inflammation that is still present in my knees at times. I have been talking a spoon full every other day and have been doing that for two weeks now. I am ready to up my dose for experiment and was wondering how much you have tried at one time and the effects it had. Thanks

I don't actually know, because that is one of my preventive/nutritional supplements, for arthritis. I have tested it to make sure it doesn't cause any detectable trouble, and my dose is small (1/4 tsp/day as recommended on the label; whatever that works out to in mg). It is quite inexpensive at that dose as well. There is clinical evidence supporting its use for arthritis, and my symptoms have improved over the last several years, though I don't know precisely what led to that.

I wish I could tell you more.

 

[Horseofadifferentcolor]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Megan, you had mentioned on the DMSO vs MSM thread that you were using the MSM. I was wondering if you could tell me how it is working for you. I have the oral crystal/powder and some lotion. I have noticed a small difference in healing time on scratches and has helped with the inflammation that is still present in my knees at times. I have been talking a spoon full every other day and have been doing that for two weeks now. I am ready to up my dose for experiment and was wondering how much you have tried at one time and the effects it had. Thanks

I don't actually know, because that is one of my preventive/nutritional supplements, for arthritis. I have tested it to make sure it doesn't cause any detectable trouble, and my dose is small (1/4 tsp/day as recommended on the label; whatever that works out to in mg). It is quite inexpensive at that dose as well. There is clinical evidence supporting its use for arthritis, and my symptoms have improved over the last several years, though I don't know precisely what led to that.

I wish I could tell you more.

Thanks for the reply. I will just keep on with my experiment and see how it goes. Yes, I agree with the price. It's nice when something so important to health is actually affordable!

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fwiw an update.

Since several weeks I got a bit protein addicted and ate more than I should have, since I was always hungry. I measured more regularly ketones (mainly with urine test strips) and the result showed each time between 5 and 15 mmol/l. So I thought this may not be a problem as long I'm in ketosis. The blood ketone meter showed 0.8 mmol/l, though times may differ when I did each of the tests, unfortunately I ran out of test strips from the blood meter to make a comparison even if this could be questioned.

Beside I like to eat sausages, they are manufactured with added not specified spices and dextrose (but not with gluten and milk according to the label), though the fat protein ration in grams is: 26:13 in 100gr. At least it is sometimes the easiest way to eat, when I'm not in the mood to cook. Also when I tend then to overeat this sausages and may eat 500gr a day plus the breakfast of about 18:18 fat/protein ratio. I'm not so sure how bad it is then to eat more proteins than needed (right now my body weight is about 63/64 kg). I did try to counter the endless hunger with eating more fat (regularly minimum 150gr of butter with 82gr fat in 100gr) and ate 250gr of butter a day plus the fat in the meat, with the result of still being a bit hungry and being nauseous in the middle of the night and with the need of taking a HCI capsule.

Right now I'm using a scale again to measure everything exactly, still I'm a bit hungry but overall it is not too bad. But the hunger could eventually also explained by cause I'm smoking less. Instead of about 5-10 cigarettes I'm smoking about 2 over the day. Only problem is then with diabetes. Cause eating is kind of a coping strategy, when I have an elevated blood sugar it helps to calm down and if it is too low to calm the voracious appetite.

Diabetes itself is behaving also a bit strange with about a +100% of the normal basal rate and about 24units/day but it is always difficult to tell the difference what causes what, is it a hidden inflammation, more protein, infusion set change, the heat outside...? It remains a mystery at times. A hypothetical discovery I did make that maybe the more insulin I need (for correction) the lower the ketones are. And I may get very easily into a ketoacidosis (ka) at about 9mmol/l (~162 mg/dl), which isn't too high to standards. At least a good friend told me that I smell like acetone (she is a nurse), when the smell is the indication of a ka.

As a result of that, that diabetes goes a bit wonky I did read the The Cantin Ketogenic Diet: For Cancer, Type I Diabetes & Other Ailments by Elaine Cantin. But there is also not written that much about diabetes or only an experiment of her diabetic type 1 son and a week on her diet. So no long term data available. She also wrote that tap water did raise her sons BG, however it works, so I start to use a distiller again to see what happens instead of a berkey filter.

Overall my energy levels did get a bit better since I had many problems in the previous months, I still need a nap of about 45 min in the afternoon. And I started again resistance exercise to see how it influences my insulin rate and I'm planning again taking cold showers too. One problem that occurred regarding strength as I was catching a train I almost couldn't run since my legs felt stiff and were about to cramp in any minute. The legs didn't cramp then but it did feel strange to be in the need of running and having no strength.

And last but not least I'm doing from time to time an EDTA oral chelation (maximum 2 days) it helps but is also a bit exhausting, which may have to do that I never did any heavy metal chelation at all.

Kruse comes to mind - and looking back at how our ancestors lived when they were in ketosis, not only didn't they have much green or grain stuff to feed them, but it also would have been mostly very cold. Kruse mentions studies that were apparently done by NASA in the sixties with sherpas showing that they had a VO2max of 400 - 500% higher than compared to the Westerners that climbed Mt. Everest. Towards the top of the climb they would switch almost entirely to eating yak fat. But - and this might be the crucial point - they also were cold adapted, which changes the entire energy metabolism. I have not been able to find these original studies published anywhere yet - so if someone has a link or an idea where to search, I'd be grateful (tried PubMed without much success, but I am not very good at searching it).

Did you use google scholar with specific search terms and magazine databases? It may be when it is that old that it never got digitalized.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fwiw an update.

Since several weeks I got a bit protein addicted and ate more than I should have, since I was always hungry. I measured more regularly ketones (mainly with urine test strips) and the result showed each time between 5 and 15 mmol/l. So I thought this may not be a problem as long I'm in ketosis. The blood ketone meter showed 0.8 mmol/l, though times may differ when I did each of the tests, unfortunately I ran out of test strips from the blood meter to make a comparison even if this could be questioned...

If you are not starting to feel ill at 15 mmol/L then I would suspect that your meter is malfunctioning or that you have defective test strips. 7.0 is the nominal safe limit (as usual, it may vary by individual), and 15 is well along toward ketoacidosis ("full blown" ketoacidosis might read more like 25 from what I have seen, though I don't know for sure.)

Some brands of meters have been reported to have more accuracy issues than others. I don't know what brands are out there now or what experiences people have had with them. My Precision Extra came well recommended at the time, and it has a solid calibration feature. Buying the cheapest, whether it be the meter or the strips, is not something I would even consider for an instrument like this.

Even a good model can be defective, but first run the calibration again and see what happens to your readings.

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fwiw an update.

Since several weeks I got a bit protein addicted and ate more than I should have, since I was always hungry. I measured more regularly ketones (mainly with urine test strips) and the result showed each time between 5 and 15 mmol/l. So I thought this may not be a problem as long I'm in ketosis. The blood ketone meter showed 0.8 mmol/l, though times may differ when I did each of the tests, unfortunately I ran out of test strips from the blood meter to make a comparison even if this could be questioned...

Sorry for the confusion, these mmol/l are for the ketones in urine or blood.

 

[Cosmos]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Regarding the sousage issue.
I also had several times where I ate manufactured sousages and onion belly from a local store that produces without gluten, lactose, GMO free and such. At least that is what it says on the lable. There are surely some very delicious sousages and meats out there who are labled gluten free etc :D

And it is sometimes quite hard to withstand the urge to buy amd eat them.

I also noticed that a lot of them have dextrose in them and other stuff to preserve it.

Even though they taste very good and it is stated that they are gluten free and such, I realised that I can't really trust it. The difference when eating them compared to the times when I were strict with my diet and only ate what I cocked myself was and is quite noticable both brain concentrate wise and energy wise. You also should remember that most of those sousages are being produced through the same machines were ordianary food goes through that is not gluten free.

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Regarding the sousage issue.
I also had several times where I ate manufactured sousages and onion belly from a local store that produces without gluten, lactose, GMO free and such. At least that is what it says on the lable. There are surely some very delicious sousages and meats out there who are labled gluten free etc :D

And it is sometimes quite hard to withstand the urge to buy amd eat them.

And better not going shopping with an empty stomach too :).

I also noticed that a lot of them have dextrose in them and other stuff to preserve it.

Even though they taste very good and it is stated that they are gluten free and such, I realised that I can't really trust it. The difference when eating them compared to the times when I were strict with my diet and only ate what I cocked myself was and is quite noticable both brain concentrate wise and energy wise. You also should remember that most of those sousages are being produced through the same machines were ordianary food goes through that is not gluten free.

It is unfortunate imo. I still read every package of produced food in the supermarket to find something suitable and it always ends with the lesser evil i.e., as if there is nothing totally "clean" so to speak.