Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Oxajil]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fwiw an update.

Since several weeks I got a bit protein addicted and ate more than I should have, since I was always hungry.
[...]
Overall my energy levels did get a bit better since I had many problems in the previous months, I still need a nap of about 45 min in the afternoon. And I started again resistance exercise to see how it influences my insulin rate and I'm planning again taking cold showers too. One problem that occurred regarding strength as I was catching a train I almost couldn't run since my legs felt stiff and were about to cramp in any minute. The legs didn't cramp then but it did feel strange to be in the need of running and having no strength.

Hey Gawan, I was wondering how you've been doing. Fwiw, a couple of my experiences with excess protein were: more hunger overall, and low energy. My legs would also feel quite heavy. Butter didn't help either that much, somehow it's not that much of a fuel for me when compared to lard. So I was wondering, maybe a different source of fat will help with your energy levels (that is, if you aren't using lard already)?

And if you don't want to cook that much, you can cook one piece of meat that will do for the whole day, and any time you need to eat you cut some of it and put lard on it, that's what I've been doing some times and it helpes a lot. So far haven't got a headache yet from excess protein and my energy levels seem to be increasing, so it's really like kinda experimenting what amount and what kind of meat/fat works best for you.

With regard to your legs, maybe some L-carnitine will help you (if you haven't tried it yet)? From Gedgaudas' book:

Free fatty acids released into the blood travel on albumen to organs, where they diffuse across cell membranes and are carried into mitochondria for oxidation (burning for fuel). Transport across the mitochondrial membrane is accomplished with the help of carnitine
...
Supplementing the diet with high doses of L-carnitine (2-5 g per day) can also help minimize any discomfort, maximize energy levels during the initial stages of weight loss, and facilitate the transition to using fat as a primary source of fuel.

It helped me with the cramps in the very beginning, so maybe it will be helpful to you too. If you don't have the money for it, I have a bottle of it here if you'd like, though it has been opened, but I could tighten it up. Hope all will continue to go well for you.

 

[clearmiddle]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fwiw an update.

Since several weeks I got a bit protein addicted and ate more than I should have, since I was always hungry. I measured more regularly ketones (mainly with urine test strips) and the result showed each time between 5 and 15 mmol/l. So I thought this may not be a problem as long I'm in ketosis. The blood ketone meter showed 0.8 mmol/l, though times may differ when I did each of the tests, unfortunately I ran out of test strips from the blood meter to make a comparison even if this could be questioned...

Sorry for the confusion, these mmol/l are for the ketones in urine or blood.

Urine, not blood? OK, well that doesn't actually tell you much of anything except that you have ketones in your urine. It's an easy way for diabetics to tell if they have a problem. To gauge the level of ketosis you need to measure serum BOHB, not urinary AA.

I'm not really sure if there is anything else that can be gleaned from urinary AA levels or not. It's a measure of wasted ketones, so it doesn't say much about utilization, not knowing how much was not wasted.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Did you use google scholar with specific search terms and magazine databases? It may be when it is that old that it never got digitalized.

Tried pretty much all that I could think of - maybe I might try to send Kruse an email, maybe he responds ...

I would try to stay clear from industrially produced sausages - at least if you don't know the way they are produced and for the long run. I occasionally buy a sausage too if I am travelling and need a quick meal, but in general I do my own sausages and put them in the freezer. That way I can take some out of the freezer in the morning and when I come home I have a meal ready to go.

Making your own sausages is relatively easy, you can use a siphon or better a sausage maker (around 80 Euro on eBay), I get my skins from the local butcher for next to nothing when I buy the meat there and you can add the spices you know you are ok with.

As a diabetic I think one of the foremost goals is a balance between insulin administraion and blood sugar levels. You want to use the least insulin possible, but also have the lowest blood sugar possible - so it's a compromise. I agree with Megan that urine ketonbodies don't tell you much and the thing with diabetes is that there is a fine line between ketosis and ketoacidosis - I haven't got any experience on managing this fine line, but certainly this would be difficult. So I couldn't recommend to you to go too high with ketone bodies.

But honestly IDDM is an entirely different ballgame than what we have been discussing here ...

 

[Ariadna]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hello friends,
A few days ago I put the following post (to contextualize).

Hello, I'm quite confused with the supplements and vitamins that are good and convenient to use. I am currently taking some but may be insufficient doses or some supplements are not priority for me. I'm actually reading the issues related to diet, candida and detox, but there is much information and I'm afraid I did not properly integrate all. I feel insecure in relation to the steps, I would go steady, I'm motivated, I want to get it right and I will not give up. A little background:

- About 6 months ago, I started to reduce carbohydrate intake and increase exercise.
- About 3 months ago I stopped taking gluten, sugar, milk and dairy products and alcohol and coffee. I can have done some transgression small and sporadic. I have reduced the intake of carbohydrates and increased fats and proteins (egg, butter, lard, fat and bone broth, keep vegetables, some potato, some rice, few pulses, fermented vegetables, and two pieces of daily fruit (apple, orange, watermelon, not melon, not banana). I think I could improve this. I'm a little stuck there.
-I have lost weight 7kgr from 72 to 65kgr, although this wasn't a goal for me.
- My last blood test (21/06/2013):
. Glucose 80 mg / dl
. Cholesterol: 182mg/dl----------before 205 mg/dl (12/02/2013)
. Triglycerides: 54mg/dl----------before 47 " "
. Creatinine: 0.84 mgr/gl---------before 0. 73 mg/ dl "
. Urate: 6.1 mgr/dl------------ 4.5 mg / dl
. Glomerular filtration: 73 ml / min
. Alanine aminotransferase: 17 U/L-------before 19
. Gamma glutamyltransferase: 13U/L---- Before 16
. Bilirubin <1.2
. Sodium: 138
. Potassium: 4
. C-reactive protein: 4.4
. Rheumatoid factors: <7
. Alanine aminotransferase: 17 U/L-------19
. Gamma glutamyltransferase: 13U/L-----16
. Bilirubin <1.2
. Sodium: 138
. Potassium: 4
. C-reactive protein: 4.4
. Rheumatoid factors: <7
. Erythrocytes: 4.80
. Hemoglobine: 14.7
. Hematocrit: 43
. Folic Acid: 13.7
. Vitamin B12: 376
. I have no figures of ferritin. The last article number is 23, 08/2008
It seems I pass with the protein intake, the problem may be that I don’t know take much fat without bread.
Perhaps these indicators reveal some important information to someone skilled

The suplamentos I take daily are:
- Vitamin C: 120 mgr.
- B-Complex 75 (Solaray)
- L-Glutathione 50mgr.
- Magnesium: 355 mgr.
- Vitamin E 550mgr.
- Alpha lipoic acid: 250mgr.

Some doses may be insufficient, such as vitamin C or glutathione, I think, in relation to what I see in some of you and I read. I would also like to know that other supplements priority would be to incorporate into my diet, since these are many. I'm a woman 49 years old. :/

Thank you for your contributions.

I started taking 3g of vitamin C and everything was working fine. Few days before, I had a minimal feeling of nausea and sweating from time to time (occasionally).
After that, yesterday morning, I got out of bed dizzy, thirsty, tired, pasty mouth, irritable, nauseated stomach and thick mind, it calmed down a bit after breakfast, but before returning eating and after eating. Yesterday I followed my diet, breakfast egg and bacon. Then I had lunch bone broth with fat and some instant mashed potato with butter and a small portion of meat. I was tired, I took a nap and I raised me dizzy, anxious and somewhat irritable. Sometimes I feel heat in the gut ...
I did urine dipstick and it had ketone bodies (++/+++), and urobilinogen. All day I keep feeling like pasty mouth. I now weigh 63 Kg. My height is 1.64 cm.
Long ago I go regularly to acupuncture, Chinese medical natives. I went because I had early menopause problems and when I had other minor health problems. I've been fine, my body responds well to acupuncture.

Also I have been taking Tibolona for about four years. But about a week ago, that I don’t take it, I ran out of pills. Now I will wait a week or two before restarting and I am considering stopping using.

That evening I went to acupuncture to see if the dizziness passed me soon. I rarely give me dizziness. The acupuncture doctor took my pulse and looked at my tongue. She told me that I have a lot of heat in the body, that I should not eat fat (pork, cheese, butter, salmon ...) that I should take fruits and vegetables ... olive oil, tea, low fat fish, seafood ...for a week more o less and sent me a remedy of Chinese medicine for a week. She said the problem lies in the liver, and that it is important to control this problem because it is dangerous to keep it so.

After that I was working night shift, so I ate boiled artichokes and a little apple juice and went to work.

I'll repeat my analytic this week to see how it goes, and TA is normal. : (uff. I was so happy ... even though It was putting uphill the fat and protein intake.

I'm better today, although I have a little headache; I think I need more intakes.
Now, how to get back the diet? I lost all pervious work? What supplements should be maintained and which are not?

Very grateful for reading and your contributions. :)

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

After that I was working night shift, so I ate boiled artichokes and a little apple juice and went to work.

I'll repeat my analytic this week to see how it goes, and TA is normal. : (uff. I was so happy ... even though It was putting uphill the fat and protein intake.

I'm better today, although I have a little headache; I think I need more intakes.
Now, how to get back the diet? I lost all pervious work? What supplements should be maintained and which are not?

Hi Ariadna,

If you are repeating your blood tests, make sure to add (or ask) for ferritin, Total Iron Binding Capacity, iron and transferrin.

Getting off prescription drugs might add some more stress, but I think once you are adjusted, you might see that is was worth it. Also, night shifts are particularly stressful on the body.

If body iron levels are high, then vitamin C will have to be removed. But I hope it comes back normal!

As for cranking up the liver while transitioning in this diet, there is milk thistle, digestive enzimes and hydrochloric acid in supplements. The later one might be substituted with apple cider vinegar in your fatty meat meals. It will help you pre-digest food better and it will help the liver too. It is hard to transition after a lifetime of a carb metabolism on top of the added stress (night shifts, prescription drugs).

Was there "nitrates" in your urine test? Might be worth correlating that with urinary symptoms like a burning sensation when you pee or stuff like that.

I think some extra magnesium (around 800mg throughout the day) will help you with the symptoms. Anyway, glad you feel better!

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well guess what, I'm up 8 capsules of HCl per meal and counting! I wonder if everyone shouldn't do an "HCl challenge" at least once to make sure the stomach is working right.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Back to work after starting a roughly 80-90% fat ketogenic diet -- first day was exhausting. I had trouble breathing deeply, it felt like there was a vacuum in my lower abdomen when I tried to breathe in it. Approaching the evening I got very hungry. I think it is related to what Psyche mentioned earlier about the stressor causing a need for glucose. Along with that, work stress is probably mostly dictated by how stressful it is perceived to be -- I fall into deep sympathetic arousal pretty easily, I feel.

On the second day however I resolved to keep track of sensations in my body, to modulate my stress response as well as I could. The increased awareness worked. At the end of the day I was quite exhausted, but there was no feeling of hunger at all. I could control what I ate easily, not giving into emotional eating programs and "inhaling the fridge".

All in all the diet seems to be going alright, I just have some niggling problems with muscle cramping, which I will continually try to resolve with salt and other minerals. The lack of hunger after work is still not something to take for granted. I can now focus on other things instead of thinking of what to eat. Adding variety in food, ie. treats and such needs to be done very carefully, in my case at least. They too easily send me down the primrose path!

 

[beetlemaniac]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well guess what, I'm up 8 capsules of HCl per meal and counting! I wonder if everyone shouldn't do an "HCl challenge" at least once to make sure the stomach is working right.

My HCl is arriving tomorrow! I got a bottle each of Solgar and Thorne brands. Will start on that according the the SCD Lifestyle post Megan posted earlier.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I didn't quote from either of the cited papers because they are for sale, like so many research papers, at a considerable price, and my access is via "rental," and the only way I can quote is to grab a screen shot and process it through OCR (which is a pain, for a quick quote, when I have already spent half a day reading and researching). As it happens, though, there is often somebody out there that ignores the copyright or has the right to publish and posts the fulltext anyway, and if you were to take a peek at _http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veech%202004_therapeutic_implications.pdf you might just find the Veech paper in full.

Thanks for your insightful comments Megan, I'm feeling unqualified to reply as I haven't steeped myself in the diet papers for some time. Thank you for providing the link, I have read some of it. The second page is giving me little hope that I will really comprehend what Veech is trying to convey, but I will try to brush up on that biochemistry and give it another go soon.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think it is related to what Psyche mentioned earlier about the stressor causing a need for glucose.

It was more about stress as a cause of raise in blood sugar regardless of its need. It gears up pathways that end up producing more blood sugar, even if you are at zero carbs and moderate protein intake. But yes, a ketogenic diet should also help with stressful feelings and events :) A metabolism that is working up optimally should also be able to maintain healthy blood sugar levels.

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Positive update :). Now everything is back to normal: the insulin rate did totally drop within one day, I'm not too hungry anymore (can ignore hunger), much more energy and the morning strange body feeling wasn't today too bad as it was. What I forgot to mention I took some days back also black tea out of my diet, since this is what I never tested after testing again butter and eggs.

Hey Gawan, I was wondering how you've been doing. Fwiw, a couple of my experiences with excess protein were: more hunger overall, and low energy. My legs would also feel quite heavy. Butter didn't help either that much, somehow it's not that much of a fuel for me when compared to lard. So I was wondering, maybe a different source of fat will help with your energy levels (that is, if you aren't using lard already)?

I really don't know, but I don't like lard. Fat needs always to be packed into something: be it tea or in the meat.

And if you don't want to cook that much, you can cook one piece of meat that will do for the whole day, and any time you need to eat you cut some of it and put lard on it, that's what I've been doing some times and it helpes a lot. So far haven't got a headache yet from excess protein and my energy levels seem to be increasing, so it's really like kinda experimenting what amount and what kind of meat/fat works best for you.

With regard to your legs, maybe some L-carnitine will help you (if you haven't tried it yet)? From Gedgaudas' book:

Free fatty acids released into the blood travel on albumen to organs, where they diffuse across cell membranes and are carried into mitochondria for oxidation (burning for fuel). Transport across the mitochondrial membrane is accomplished with the help of carnitine
...
Supplementing the diet with high doses of L-carnitine (2-5 g per day) can also help minimize any discomfort, maximize energy levels during the initial stages of weight loss, and facilitate the transition to using fat as a primary source of fuel.

It helped me with the cramps in the very beginning, so maybe it will be helpful to you too. If you don't have the money for it, I have a bottle of it here if you'd like, though it has been opened, but I could tighten it up. Hope all will continue to go well for you.

Thank you, I should have a bit of L-carnitine powder still around.

Making your own sausages is relatively easy, you can use a siphon or better a sausage maker (around 80 Euro on eBay), I get my skins from the local butcher for next to nothing when I buy the meat there and you can add the spices you know you are ok with.

As a diabetic I think one of the foremost goals is a balance between insulin administraion and blood sugar levels. You want to use the least insulin possible, but also have the lowest blood sugar possible - so it's a compromise. I agree with Megan that urine ketonbodies don't tell you much and the thing with diabetes is that there is a fine line between ketosis and ketoacidosis - I haven't got any experience on managing this fine line, but certainly this would be difficult. So I couldn't recommend to you to go too high with ketone bodies.

But honestly IDDM is an entirely different ballgame than what we have been discussing here ...

I agree it is and thanks for the sausage maker suggestion.

 

[Ariadna]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

If you are repeating your blood tests, make sure to add (or ask) for ferritin, Total Iron Binding Capacity, iron and transferrin.

Getting off prescription drugs might add some more stress, but I think once you are adjusted, you might see that is was worth it. Also, night shifts are particularly stressful on the body.

As for cranking up the liver while transitioning in this diet, there is milk thistle, digestive enzimes and hydrochloric acid in supplements. The later one might be substituted with apple cider vinegar in your fatty meat meals. It will help you pre-digest food better and it will help the liver too. It is hard to transition after a lifetime of a carb metabolism on top of the added stress (night shifts, prescription drugs).

Was there "nitrates" in your urine test? Might be worth correlating that with urinary symptoms like a burning sensation when you pee or stuff like that.

Psyche Thanks for your valuable advice and your help. I have much to learn.
The day before, when my problem came up, I had a 14-hour shift and two quite stressful situations. At dinner I took octopus cooked instant mashed potato with butter. Perhaps the energy consumption and intake were unbalanced ...

Well, this morning I had no energy to even light a match, discouraged, worried, as a long time since I was not feeling so. After lunch much better, I'm recovering vitality, uff. I will not give up! I think I'm a woman somewhat apprehensive but also strong and willful. ;)

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The day before, when my problem came up, I had a 14-hour shift and two quite stressful situations. At dinner I took octopus cooked instant mashed potato with butter. Perhaps the energy consumption and intake were unbalanced ...

Some easily digestible carbs, some protein and fat. Sounds good if you are used to eating octopus and not having bad reactions to it. :)

I have done night shifts and sometimes very close together. I think it is among the top ten stressing factors regardless of the type of job. Afterwards, you can feel okay in your mind, but your body is like "what the heck was that all about?!". All those artificial lights and then your body is pumping up cortisol and other stress hormones when your body is actually asking for night time restoration hormones which only get signaled if in bed and sleeping in total darkness.

Once ketoadapted, I have found that the body is much more able to recover from night shifts. Then, when you catch up with some sleep, you can do it in total darkness regardless of the time of the day. I feel that it has helped.

Perhaps others have another tip, but I think some troubleshooting is meant to occur.

Here are some tips to sleep better and the science behind it (quite fascinating!):

Are You Getting Enough Sleep? Sleeping properly?
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,21286.msg221825.html#msg221825

Since the thread is quite big, perhaps it will be better to check this article which is a good synthesis:

The Sleeping Habit That Can Make You Hungrier, Plumper, and Forgetful
http://www.sott.net/article/225925-The-Sleeping-Habit-That-Can-Make-You-Hungrier-Plumper-and-Forgetful

Then you can check the thread at your own pace and time.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well, I've gotten up to 10 capsules per meal and I have to wonder whether I will recover from stomach acid deficiency before my two 90-capsule bottles are out. Half of one is already gone. At this rate they may both be gone in less than a week! I haven't found out how long it usually takes to get over this. I did find this however which links HCl deficiency to histamine sensitivity:

Gastric analysis with histamine stimulation was performed on 40 patients with chronic hives (urticaria). Approximately 65% of the patients had either hypochlorhydria or achlorhydria. Of the patients with reduced acid output, 65% obtained almost complete or partial relief of symptoms with hydrochloric acid (HCl) therapy. These patients previously had been unresponsive to all other forms of treatment. The best results were obtained in the 22 patients with achlorhydria. In this group, 18 patients (82%) were almost completely relieved by HCl therapy. In another report, administration of dilute HCl altered the putrefactive flora ordinarily present in the small intestine of achlorhydric individuals.

According to the second report, therapeutic use of dilute HCl has fallen into disrepute, largely on theoretical grounds. However, many capable internists and dermatologists remain convinced, on the basis of clinical experience, that acid therapy is beneficial. [Rawls WB, Ancona VC. Chronic urticaria associated with hypochlorhydria or achlorhydria. Rev Gastroenterol 1951;18:267]

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Positive update . Now everything is back to normal:

Very good to hear that!

What I forgot to mention I took some days back also black tea out of my diet, since this is what I never tested after testing again butter and eggs.

I had a really bad experience with black tea...I don't even want to get near caffeine again.
A few years ago, when I started to change my diet with the first elimination protocols from the forum, I cut out coffee and black tea. Although up until then I didn't want to admit it, I somehow knew that they both messed up with my system making me jittery, nervous, and irritable. Basically, they would help trigger too many emotional ups and downs.

Two years ago I drank a cup of black tea and fell into the temptation of going back to it. Thing is, I love coffee and black tea. One cup of black tea a day turned into two, then three, and so on.... it got to a point where I felt that my emotional balance was seriously being affected.
Due to several life stressors, this May my health crashed and I did a cortisol then test that came up as very high. This was a big wake up call because I could barely function, on all levels. What I did notice then, is how whenever I drank black tea all symptoms became aggravated, and the only thing I could do was to lie down on my bed.

It is true that black tea wasn't the sole responsible for this, there were many other emotional and physical stressors that caused me to go downhill, but the truth is that I experienced how in my body black tea simply exacerbated everything.

Maybe you aren't as sensitive to caffeine as I am, but I do feel uneasy knowing that you are diabetic, and that caffeine may potentially be destabilising your blood sugar. Just a thought, fwiw.

I really don't know, but I don't like lard. Fat needs always to be packed into something: be it tea or in the meat.

It may take a little of getting used to :) in Portugal we cook everything with olive oil, and oil, and my husband was very attached to their taste. Since we learned how oil, and olive oil when heated, can do so much damage to your health, we introduced lard, beef dripping, duck fat, goose fat, ghee, butter, and some occasional coconut oil. I loved it from the beginning, but my husband struggled. At first, he'd eat while squeezing his face into a grimace, but now, he doesn't want anything but animal fat!

There are several different sources of fat, maybe you could carry on adding butter, or even ghee or coconut oil to your tea, but start introducing other sources for cooking? Besides, out of all sources of solid fat, butter is the least ideal since it reaches its burning point sooner than all others.

ADDED: I do understand your love for butter though, I could eat a whole stick of it every day! In fact, I have done it in the past, but noticed, trough changes in my skin, that it was not such a good fat source for me, unfortunately. But do I love its taste...