Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Darek]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have tryed to adjust the fat to protein I am in taking without any success. If anyone has any ideas that I can try, I am open!

The Ketogenic Diet - An Overview

"While it is true that ketones are produced during fasting, ketones are also produced in times of plenty, but not plenty of carbohydrates since a carb metabolism suppresses ketosis. In the absence of most carbs in the diet, ketones will form from fat [in your body]to supply for energy. This is true even if lots of fats and enough protein are eaten, something that is hardly a starvation condition".

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Since I have cut out all carbs sticking with broth, meats, pure butter and animal fats with the occasional fig, date or banana. I have had little desire for veggies. I have gone from around 105lbs/106lbs down to around 90lbs in a couple of weeks. :O
I am not liking this new look of mine. As I feel I look even more like 'easy prey'.

I had such high hopes for curves! :( Though, I feel I have more energy and am clearer in thinking. :)

I have had always a hard time keeping and gaining weight my whole life, the heaviest I have weighed was when I ran cross country in H.S. and was at 107lbs -108lbs.

I am wondering how I can gain back what I have lost. I have tryed to adjust the fat to protein I am in taking without any success. If anyone has any ideas that I can try, I am open!

Why not use that newly found energy to do some resistance training? A high intensity workout will "gain back what you've lost" and more, since it's good also for your cardiovascular system and according to recent studies, even helps to correct problems on the DNA level. There are some good studies quoted in this very thread, I believe.

As for feelings of being a prey, I'd like to add that as I see it, you can't just 'choose' to not being a victim if you don't have knowledge of yourself (e.g. your reactive programs, trauma, subconscious) and your surroundings (pathological & character disturbed people). But that's partly what this forum is all about: doing 'The Work'. :)

 

[Jono]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm thinking that low stomach acid might be an issue for a lot of people so having the Betaine on hand to test it out could be helpful.

I've never been feeling 100% percent with Ketosis, probably because of the disastrous diet I've been eating throughout my childhood. I probably still need a good year for my gut to fully heal.

Recently I purchased Super Enzymes (_http://tiny.cc/2hwb2w) that contain Betaine HCL, (among other digestive enzymes) and it's been working wonders. Usually I would experience a tiny bit of nausea eating zero carbs, but taking two of these with my meal gives a real smooth conversion from food to energy, without the tiredness of digesting.

I'm going to test further by increasing of dosage, and watch for the 'burn' sensation to see if it yields even better results. :)

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Recently I purchased Super Enzymes (_http://tiny.cc/2hwb2w) that contain Betaine HCL, (among other digestive enzymes) ...

I'm going to test further by increasing of dosage, and watch for the 'burn' sensation to see if it yields even better results. :)

One thing to consider is that when you buy a product that contains both betaine HCL and digestive enzymes, increasing the dose of one also increases the dose of the other. While that could conceivably be beneficial, it isn't necessarily. You might want to consider adding just betaine HCL while you titrate, and possibly buying separate products altogether.

I have not come across a "challenge" protocol for digestive enzymes, and I don't know if it is a good idea to go much above the recommended dose.

I am in the process of switching to a different brand of digestive enzymes from ProZymes (GI Pro), after the company shipped me the wrong product and I am now having to pay shipping both ways to correct their stock-picking error. I no longer recommend them because of this particular business practice (they don't show any sign of wanting to make it right), and I'll be seeing how the next company on my list does. It has helped in one way, however, because I felt no differently after running out of my supply, and I may simply not need anything but the betaine HCL. That could save a lot more than what I lost on shipping because the digestive enzymes are much more expensive -- another reason to separate the supplements.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I would have to take 30 capsules of Super Enzymes before I'd have a high enough dose of HCI. There is no substitute for raw HCI as far as I can tell. If I had tried this experiment with the enzymes, I don't think it would work right, and it would be way more expensive. For someone with acid deficiency, the amount of HCI needed is just too much.

 

[Jono]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Recently I purchased Super Enzymes (_http://tiny.cc/2hwb2w) that contain Betaine HCL, (among other digestive enzymes) ...

I'm going to test further by increasing of dosage, and watch for the 'burn' sensation to see if it yields even better results. :)

One thing to consider is that when you buy a product that contains both betaine HCL and digestive enzymes, increasing the dose of one also increases the dose of the other. While that could conceivably be beneficial, it isn't necessarily. You might want to consider adding just betaine HCL while you titrate, and possibly buying separate products altogether.

I have not come across a "challenge" protocol for digestive enzymes, and I don't know if it is a good idea to go much above the recommended dose.

I am in the process of switching to a different brand of digestive enzymes from ProZymes (GI Pro), after the company shipped me the wrong product and I am now having to pay shipping both ways to correct their stock-picking error. I no longer recommend them because of this particular business practice (they don't show any sign of wanting to make it right), and I'll be seeing how the next company on my list does. It has helped in one way, however, because I felt no differently after running out of my supply, and I may simply not need anything but the betaine HCL. That could save a lot more than what I lost on shipping because the digestive enzymes are much more expensive -- another reason to separate the supplements.

I would have to take 30 capsules of Super Enzymes before I'd have a high enough dose of HCI. There is no substitute for raw HCI as far as I can tell. If I had tried this experiment with the enzymes, I don't think it would work right, and it would be way more expensive. For someone with acid deficiency, the amount of HCI needed is just too much.

Is it a good idea to get a Betaine HCL with Pepsin? They seem to be the cheapest and nearest to raw I can find. They contain 350mg of B-HCL, with an added 100mg of Pepsin Enzyme.

I've most probably been getting ahead of myself, as I only did the test for about three meals. I thinking now it was probably a placebo effect

Thanks for the information :)

 

[anothermagyar]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Recently I purchased Super Enzymes (_http://tiny.cc/2hwb2w) that contain Betaine HCL, (among other digestive enzymes) ...

I'm going to test further by increasing of dosage, and watch for the 'burn' sensation to see if it yields even better results. :)

One thing to consider is that when you buy a product that contains both betaine HCL and digestive enzymes, increasing the dose of one also increases the dose of the other. While that could conceivably be beneficial, it isn't necessarily. You might want to consider adding just betaine HCL while you titrate, and possibly buying separate products altogether.

I have not come across a "challenge" protocol for digestive enzymes, and I don't know if it is a good idea to go much above the recommended dose.

I am in the process of switching to a different brand of digestive enzymes from ProZymes (GI Pro), after the company shipped me the wrong product and I am now having to pay shipping both ways to correct their stock-picking error. I no longer recommend them because of this particular business practice (they don't show any sign of wanting to make it right), and I'll be seeing how the next company on my list does. It has helped in one way, however, because I felt no differently after running out of my supply, and I may simply not need anything but the betaine HCL. That could save a lot more than what I lost on shipping because the digestive enzymes are much more expensive -- another reason to separate the supplements.

I would have to take 30 capsules of Super Enzymes before I'd have a high enough dose of HCI. There is no substitute for raw HCI as far as I can tell. If I had tried this experiment with the enzymes, I don't think it would work right, and it would be way more expensive. For someone with acid deficiency, the amount of HCI needed is just too much.

Is it a good idea to get a Betaine HCL with Pepsin? They seem to be the cheapest and nearest to raw I can find. They contain 350mg of B-HCL, with an added 100mg of Pepsin Enzyme.

I've most probably been getting ahead of myself, as I only did the test for about three meals. I thinking now it was probably a placebo effect

Thanks for the information :)

Nora Gedgaudas mentions in "Primal Body Primal Mind" if you don't have enough acid in your stomach try apple cider vinegar and you can try fermented vegetables like sour kraut.

 

[Rhythmik]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Is it very bad to be constantly going in and out of ketosis?

 

[beetlemaniac]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I tried the Betaine HCl challenge and I got up to 5 capsules - at that point I got that abdominal discomfort as well as some bad diarrhoea. I also notice that the digestibility of different kinds of foods vary. I had some homemade cracklings today which were a bit hard, and I probably did not chew thoroughly enough for proper digestion. After eating I felt tired and the food just sat in my stomach for the whole day. I was also "grazing" throughout the morning on bits of the cracklings and some meat which probably caused some upset as well.

I had an earlier experiment with coffee. I think it kicked me out of ketosis pretty badly, it took probably half a week or so to recover from. I had bad steatorrhoea (fatty stools) and aches throughout my body on the days following the experiment. Not sure exactly what caused this, it could be the effect on blood sugar .

At work the other day I was feeling somewhat tired and irritable, but I had brought with me some lard bits I got from rendering. I had a few pieces and I perked right up! I'm thinking that the tiredness and mental fatigue is caused by blood sugar dips, as Psyche mentioned earlier, stress increases glycolytic demands on the body.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Is it very bad to be constantly going in and out of ketosis?

I really don't know, although I think it might be somewhat stressful for a person. There's things like muscle pains & electrolytic imbalances (loss of sodium/potassium) that you'd have to go through in the process of re-adaptation. While in some people the change seems to be less of a problem maybe since their bodies have gone through it before.

There are different degrees of ketosis, so getting kicked out of ketosis could mean an increase in fasting blood sugar and insulin levels causing a concomitant decrease in circulating ketones. Of course, it's not just limited to that, being in a state of ketosis requires a lot of useful enzymes and things to be upregulated while the glucose-burning stuff get the axe. Also with the DNA changes that make everything work. Who knows what gets reversed an increased carbohydrate consumption? It's very individual, too as some can handle more carbs than others without problems. I seem to be pretty sensitive to them, even too much protein seems to negate some of the appetite-reducing and cognitive effects of ketosis.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Rhythmik,

I think it is not a huge problem per se - babies go in and out of ketosis all the time. The problem probably lies more with the fact that if you drift in and out of ketosis you don't really reap the benefits. Also your levels of ketosis will be lower - although this point is a bit speculative (some say that the brain works optimally only if BOHB levels are above 4 mmol/l - not sure if that is really necessary). The other thing is that it depends how your metabolism has been shaped. If you have been in ketosis for some times and you eat yourself out of it, but correct it fast, you get back into it straight away without having to go through the two-week feeling-miserable period - unlike at the beginning. My advice for any "keto-novice" would be to make an effordt to sustain ketosis for three months or so to really change the metabolism, after that one can occasionally be a little bit more lenient without too much pain.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Is it very bad to be constantly going in and out of ketosis?

Ketone levels tend to cycle through the day, and people that consume sufficient carbs (that would be most all people eating a western diet) may cycle below and above whatever threshold you want to view as being "in ketosis" -- typically 0.5 mmol/L. People that eat a lot of carbs would tend to move into ketosis during sleep, prior to "break fast," which is to say that fasting induces ketosis and people fast while sleeping. Whether everyone who consumes carbs actually makes it above 0.5 mmol/L during sleep, I don't know.

So it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Almost anybody is going to enter ketosis if they fast for very long, and leave it if they consume enough carbs.

But are you really asking about ketosis, or about keto-adaptation? To become adapted to making optimal use of ketones requires spending an extended period of time in ketosis -- nominally two weeks (some people less; some more). It can have fatigue and other symptoms as side effects and most people don't think of it as a fun thing to do. As far as I know, carb-adaptation does not present the same symptoms, and may not present any at all (I can't say I have tried it), but I have seen indications in my own experience that elevated carb intake for a few days does not cause me to lose my keto-adaptation. Other people here have related different experiences, so that is perhaps an individual characteristic.

I haven't heard of any research into the risks of going into keto-adaptation and then readapting to high carb intake, back and forth. My guess is that if you have blood sugar issues/metabolic damage, re-adapting repeatedly to high carb intake could carry significant risk above that presented by the high carb intake itself, but that is just a guess. It might be kind of like pounding on a wound that was healing. Since so many people seem to have metabolic damage, visible or hidden, I wouldn't recommend trying it.

 

[SMM]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Last Monday I had a most adverse reaction to something consumed. I had tried wild boar earlier that day, but also consumed some tomatoes for the first time in a while whilst over family home. I supplemented with Betaine HCL & ox bile. My guess is that is was the boar, since I'd never had such an adverse reaction to tomatoes before - even after long durations without although I do think I'm slightly affected by them as nightshades which is probably more noticeable after cessation.

I haven't heard of any research into the risks of going into keto-adaptation and then readapting to high carb intake, back and forth. My guess is that if you have blood sugar issues/metabolic damage, re-adapting repeatedly to high carb intake could carry significant risk above that presented by the high carb intake itself, but that is just a guess. It might be kind of like pounding on a wound that was healing. Since so many people seem to have metabolic damage, visible or hidden, I wouldn't recommend trying it.

Since protein at high enough level gets converted to glucose, do you think the effects would be similar in keto-adaptation?

 

[Rhythmik]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

But are you really asking about ketosis, or about keto-adaptation?

Yes definitely ketosis. I believe I keto-adapted a while ago when I wasn't really sure what I was doing. I only just started testing my blood ketones daily, before/after different foods, training etc. I'm not sure if I've yet to be in ketosis for 2 straight weeks but I've been on <50g carbs for most of the past 6 months. After being knocked out of ketosis (I'm still working on abstaining from certain foods/drinks) it seems to take me 2-3 days to get back above 1mmol. The very next day I was 1.9mmol which was also my highest reading so far. Is there an optimal/average/minimum blood ketone range to achieve to reap the benefits, or is that more of an individual measurement?

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

But are you really asking about ketosis, or about keto-adaptation?

Yes definitely ketosis. I believe I keto-adapted a while ago when I wasn't really sure what I was doing. I only just started testing my blood ketones daily, before/after different foods, training etc. I'm not sure if I've yet to be in ketosis for 2 straight weeks but I've been on <50g carbs for most of the past 6 months. After being knocked out of ketosis (I'm still working on abstaining from certain foods/drinks) it seems to take me 2-3 days to get back above 1mmol. The very next day I was 1.9mmol which was also my highest reading so far. Is there an optimal/average/minimum blood ketone range to achieve to reap the benefits, or is that more of an individual measurement?

Unless you slip up all the time, staying with it for 6 months is long enough to get totally adapted. I can't say anything about blood ketone levels because I've never measured mine, but going back and forth is almost unnoticeable. I still get periods now and then of really deep keto (rocket fuel).
Last weekend I ate about 150g of carbs in one meal, just to give the body a little test. I didn't feel so good, but the next morning I was back to normal with broth&bacon, feeling fine.

Since protein at high enough level gets converted to glucose, do you think the effects would be similar in keto-adaptation?

It's not the same as eating lots of carbs, as it's a fairly inefficient process in the body, as far as I know. It's more likely to just make you feel bad and foggy, and be difficult to digest. Or at least that's what it does for me and people I've spoken to