Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yeah, I've used D3 supplements that had K2 combined. It's common to take butter oil supplements for K2. Or you can eat lots of grass fed butter if you can tolerate butter.

 

[cubbex]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well, I've been watching videos about it and I became a little confused. Thing is that some say that low carbohydrates is good for bodybuilding and some say it depends, on how long the workout and how intense it is. My doubt is not about that, my doubt is that this guy, that has been coached by ben pak the guy of the vids I posted before:

http://youtu.be/CNsgIdWwiBk
Will a low carb diet make you lose muscle?

Thing is, he says in that and another video, that a low carb diet helps to increase cortisol and it gives you less endurance while exercising, to what I say is true because I remember a period I ate a lot of food with carbs, though I felt bad because I'm supposed to avoid them, I was able to perform better. Now that I've been avoiding them I just can't perform as before, I can't endure as much as before and that means that I can endure the recommended 45 to 60 minutes of exercise.

But, I know that when I eat carbs I have chronic depression, I have sudden and horrible change of moods, more anxiety and eventually more stress and with that cortisol of course.

Do you know anything about it? any source of information about this you can share?

I think it's important to remember, Prometeo, that body builders do not have the same goals that we do. A diet that is appropriate for maximizing muscle mass while limiting body fat percentage is not necessarily the same as a diet that leads to optimal functioning of the brain, organs and immune system. Body builders have the ultimate goal of appearance (and as distorted as that body image can often be is something else to keep in mind).

It's the same as a lot of the cross-fit guys who give advice on raising carbs to increase performance. Again, they're attempting different goals - to fuel what could be argued to be over-exercising routines day in and day out. Again, performance. We're not looking to maximize physical performance in terms of brute strength or endurance. We're looking to maximize the performance of our bodies on a daily basis, get our brains working their best, make sure we're not vulnerable to disease, increasing energy to allow us to WORK.

While some of the advice we follow may overlap with bodybuilders or crossfitters, I think it's important to keep in mind that the ultimate goals are quite different. At a certain point the paths are going to diverge. It's inevitable. I think you have to make a decision about what YOUR ultimate goal is - are you trying to LOOK good, or BE good?

FWIW

Hi Prometeo, although I agree with dugdeep that body builders do not have the same goals that we do, I still think that body builders would have more benefit, to fulfill their goals, on a high fat low carb diet, or a ketogenic diet. When I was in my early twenties, I was into the whole body building thing. I was on a high carb (and high protein) diet, and would work out 4 to 5 days a week, usually about 90 minutes per work out. After a couple of years of very strenuous training I got to be very muscular and strong, being able to bench press almost twice my body weight and for leg squats, almost 3 times my body weight.

I quit body building when I was about 25 and lost most of the muscularity and strength that I had attained over the last 30 years or so. I'm now 53, and about 4 or 5 months ago I started to do some resistance training (high intensity training) not for "body building" reasons, but because it's part of the ketogenic diet. I eat a lot of fat, very few (if any) carbs, and spend no more than fifteen minutes (but a very intense 15 minutes) in the gym twice a week. That's it... and the results are amazing. I'm now just as muscular and strong as I was back then in my early twenties, and with very little body fat.

I feel I have much more endurance fueling my body with fat than fueling it with carbs. But there is something else that really helps... doing E.E. daily. Having the fuel derived from animal fat gives you the extra energy for endurance but you also need the "will power" in the mind to do that last repetition to exhaust the muscles completely, which is what high intensity training is all about. I believe that it's because of E.E. that I can do that "super effort". Just my 2 cents... ;)

I agree, maybe dug didn't remember that I posted a pro bodybuilder saying that he's an advocate of paleo diet and eating few carbs. I found the answer of my doubt, ben pak says that you need carbs if you are working on high intensity and for long periods, that is what I do before strength training called High interval training for cardio. And Vince says that you eat carbs but you have to eat them close to your workout and burn them all.

I think a good looking body is a healthy body, one that has high fat percentage can be for different purposes like channeling or something, but what about being skinny and weak in all senses? or fat have no real purpose to use that fat? I've also found that working out in any way increases my intelligence and mind reaction.

The problem is that I've been having recently bad sleeping patterns, is horrible I can't just sleep and when I sleep I have weird nightmares, the lights of my room turn on by themselves, and I wake up paralyzed. So, the body needs to synthesize sugar to fuel the brain, but the few carbs I get can't be synthesize because I have bad sleep habits, without proper sleep the brain can't synthesize sugar properly so that answers why I don't have enough strength.

Thanks for the tip stone, I think I will do the 3 stage breathing daily because I've been having thoughts that do not help me at all along those, strange sleeping problems I'm having. I do the E.E. entirely just twice a week, sometimes just once.

The amount of muscle you can gain also seems heavily dependent on genetics, and massive carb loading is a way for people to overcome this. However, as mentioned, it will will do more harm than good over time.

My experience is the opposite to Stoneboss's, in that my body naturally fairly skinny and short, and just doesn't seem like it was built for lifting weights. I've never been able to bench press more than 70 kg despite all kinds of different training strategies, and generally weight lifting just isn't for me.

I think it's a good idea to ask yourself why you want to become big and strong? You could spend 5 years getting massive, but where is the practicality? Sure, you could move heavy things, but I can do that just as easily by working together with a friend. And who wants to have to maintain that kind of bulk in an "end of the world as we know it" scenario?

Mmm the only thing genetics is related to muscle building is on how disciplined you are and the structure of your body, some engage certain muscles more than others and some are well proportionate to use every muscle without engaging one more than the other.

Where's the practicality? mm where's the practicality on reading books from gurdjieff or laura? I guess the answer depends as mentioned, on your goals and how you want to apply it, if you read good books you can improve your life a lot, and you are able to go without reading and still have and maybe a more comfortable life in this "3rd density" planet. If you exercise daily, believe me, you can improve in so many ways, you can improve your heart condition and blood circulation, you can use properly all your nutrients, improve your mood, improve your breathing capacity and increase strength for functional uses. You are assuming i'm into bodybuilding to get big as godzilla, but i'm into it because it's fun, it's a healthy way to spend my free time, and I'm more worried on my performance and endurance not on getting massive.

 

[emilien512]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

You only need animal proteins to build your body right? (forget tofu lol msg) 26g limit per meal? What else?
And i tried vitamin pillz once, always got sick... carbs, getting more and more sick over the months.... argh..

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have been listening to an Underground Wellness podcast by Dr. Datis Kharrazian, discussing topics covered in his book Why Isn't My Brain Working?. The reason I mention it here is that some of us have experienced quite a lot of "gut trouble" while experimenting with KD, and Dr. Kharrazian points out something that might seem obvious in retrospect but that I for one had pretty much overlooked.

If you gut is acting up, you might have a problem with your gut microbes. But then again you might not. There is something else that can exert a huge influence on the gut: your brain. While we know that a problem in the gut can lead to inflammation in the brain (especially when there is a permeability problem), causation can run in the other direction as well. If you have brain problems (as I do), those can directly contribute to gut problems.

It should come as no surprise to those that have been around here a while that the main channel for control of the gut by the brain is the vagus nerve. What's great, though, is that what Dr. Kharrazian recommends as a first measure for addressing problems with vagal control of the gut is stimulating the vagus nerve!

He does not actually recommend pipe breathing in the podcast, though he does mention some other exercises. I have other vagus-related problems that I already knew about and this gives me some new things to try (EE has not helped very much with my particular issues, though the pipe breathing seems to help a little).

I have not yet read the book, but I am going to start it shortly (it's available on Kindle as well as in print). A lot of things are mentioned in the podcast that I would like to learn more about.

As long as I am here, on another subject (also KD-related), I reintroduced the supplement L-carnitine and it seems to be helping with my lagging energy levels. (I am talking, by the way, about having enough energy to get up and walk across the room, or maybe to go grocery shopping, but not to go run marathons.) Between carnitine, betaine HCL, and digestive enzymes my metabolism seems to be returning to normal (normal for me, that is). I am spending more time offline and away from the house, and feeling better as a result. I did hear a caution recently about being over reliant on betaine HCL (possibly in the above podcast) - it is better if you can find the cause of the low stomach acid and correct it.

My carb intake remains very low. I am not sure exactly how much carbohydrate I take in (I don't count it) but I would guess that it is often under 10 g/day. I have eliminated most veggies, and among plant foods I am mainly eating mushrooms, onion, garlic, and a few fresh (as in growing in a pot out back) herbs. I view this as temporary, but it has served to control the excess fermentation problems I was having while still maintaining a good-sized colony of symbiotic bacteria in my colon. Early mornings are going much better now.

On yet another subject, I came across some information that people with the APO-E 3,4 (heterozygous) and 4,4 (homozygous) genetic mutations may be advised to limit their fat intake to one degree or another to guard against certain health problems. I have the APO-E 3,4 variant (along with about 25% of the rest of the population) and I was surprised to hear that, especially since I have been consuming a lot of fat lately. The subject is apparently covered in Jimmy Moore's book Cholesterol Clarity, which I have also been reading. I just haven't reached that particular section yet. I think I'd better hurry up and read it.

 

[VIJAYA]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hello all,

I had some questions regarding the Keto Diet, and etc, that I wanted to share/ask. I joined these boards quite some time ago, but have not had a lot of time to ask these questions due to being a single mama of a very active 2 yr old boy (though I did officially introduce myself many months ago on the newbie board :) ). In my spare time, I've been reading through this thread from the beginning (still not up to the last page but working through it and all the wonderful info here!), as well as the Jack Kruse page, reading this book called "Grain Brain" by David Perlmutter, and doing my own personal experimentation. I find it awesomely fascinating that Neurologists and Neuro surgeons like the two mentioned above, both highly recommend this diet as the "key." As well as the IF, Cold baths, resistance training etc...

I know I still have alot of research and experimentation to do, and hope to purchase the Primal Bodies, Primal Minds book soon...

In my experience, I came out of an almost raw, low fat vegan diet.... In the beginning of this diet, it was great- had endless energy for awhile, but found it to be, perhaps a bit toxic for me, as I started breaking out and my teeth (as well as my poor little son's) began rotting from all of the fruit- despite brushing and swishing many times a day.

I then decided to add in beans and rice or other pseudo grains (having already cut out the wheat and glueten and processed foods), but this didnt really work out either as I've done allergy testing which indicated I had a bean allergy....

Somehow I kept coming across this thread and info on the keto diet kept "coming my way"... so I decided to listen, despite feeling very bad, on some levels for considering the harming of animals that has to take place AND having a partner/boyfriend that has been a long time vegan of 12 yrs. Yet- I recalled my experience living with a First nations shaman and his family in the wilderness of the Yukon in Canada, some years before, and they ate mainly off the land and also mainly a keto diet/ yet perhaps high protein too... I decided that try the diet and made peace with animal product consumption by doing my best to purchase only grass fed/humanely raised meat and saying a little prayer before eating to give gratitude to the animal and for this food to nurture my body and brain.

My boyfriend may think this is nuts, but until you do the research and feel the inner resonace, I can certainly understand the vast majority of people being very alarmed by such a thing, per conditioning and ignorance to it.

One of the main reasons I felt interested in this diet besides the general health and wellbeing it's reported to bring, the activating of the "wild" DNA, etc.. is that there is some research/studies that have been done to promote it as being helpful in balancing and calming the "bi-polar" individual.. I was diagnosed with this very young and while on a horrible SAD diet and lots of terrible psych drugs in my teens, I nearly killed my body with all of this junk and toxicity... I've tried numerous herbal supplements to help with this and have achieved some success with them, but since starting the keto diet there has been a VERY NOTICEABLE feeling of groundedness, calm, and stabilization! I can certainly test this out because I have a sweet little boy that loves to push all of my buttons all day long to see what reactions he can get. Now that I've stepped into this keto diet (or moving towards this), hes seen a much more calm and leveled out mama, and it's been a nice side effect that he seems to really want to be closer and more open with me... yay!

All that being said (thank you for listening ;) )... I have been working towards ketosis for some time now. I'm hoping that posting my experience and questions here is the appropriate place ! :) Really I am so grateful for this site and also the SOTT site for spreading such imperative info to help the awakening human to help themselves, and be of help to others. What a blessing to be able to educate, connect, and share in this way!

My experience and questions-

In moving from the raw vegan diet, I first tried just adding a little meat, and then adding a bit more at each meal (still higher in carbs). Then I started rendering my own lard, and using ALOT of butter, coco oil, MGT oil, bacon grease, and whatever oils/animal fat I can while reducing the carbs. Then I realized that even though I thought the carbs were probably within a low range, I was still eating what's considered Paleo, but def not condusive to true ketosis at around 60-70 carbs a day.

It seems a definite need, especially in the beginning of this diet, to really chart and tract what you eat, your progress, and the ratios of fat/protein/carbs... I've found sites like cronometer.com and the keto based nutrition calculator at: http://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/19058429.php

I am one of the skinny people at 45 kilos/ 105 lbs at around 5'5ft. So I'm really trying to gain a few pounds/kilos...

This week I've been (finally) lowering my carbs below 30g a day and more towards 10g a day. Cutting out the berries has been difficult, but surely worth it for now. Still working on getting the appropriate protein/fat ratio going. I think I equated that for my body weight x 1.5, I need about 70g of protein a day (that seems high?) and thus to keep the 4:1 fat to protein ratio, would need about 280g of fat a day?

If that's correct I've been getting WAY below this by about 100gs, so I need to amp up there immediately!

I don't know if I've been in ketosis this whole time, but I ordered the ketostix, for now, and hope to receive them today. My mom (who is an RN) says she definitely smells the acetone like breath... yuck! I've decided to spend the rest of today doing fasting except for some fatty bone broth I've made, maybe for dinner and then continue the fast until ketosis kicks in officially.

Even though I don't know if I've been truly and fully in ketosis, this "keto-adaptation" time HAS been difficult due to...
-less energy, especially in the afternoon and then by 6 or 7 at night I'm feeling exhausted (which could still be considered normal in taking care of a 2 yr old) but by 8 or 9pm I can barely keep awake and I knew this was hitting hard last night when I mentally wanted and intended to go outside in the beautiful Arizona cooler weather for my last American spirit but then just couldn't make it and collapsed on the couch..
-other people's opinions (not that difficult)

Yet, Ive already noticed some remarkable positives, one of which I mentioned above:
-feeling of inner calm and grounded-ness
-also spontaneously waking early in the morn (around 4am) has been wonderful as opposed to staying awake each night until 2am and then struggling to wake up with my little one
-feeling very mentally clear and awake when I do get up early

I wonder how long the full transition will take!


My questions for anyone available to comment on these are:

1. RE: EXERCISE- when adding into the equation high intensity resistance training-

- TIME- is there a certain time of the day people have found this most beneficial? Personally I only have available early morning or after 8pm when my little one is sleeping.
-ROUTINE- and if one can't get to the gym and only has limited resources as far as purchasing weights etc, is there anyone who has found good routines for this online or has thoughts on a good program to start with that uses mostly body weight or easily purchased weights?
-HOW MUCH- I would believe it's important to do some light exercise each day, i.e. walking, yoga? how much is a good amount for the HI RT? I was thinking 2-3x a week?

2. COLD THERMOGENESIS- I've found this part of the puzzle to be very interesting..! Yet where to begin- On Jack Kruse's site he has certain recommendations, and I'd think to begin with cold showers and cold water face plunges... and work up to the coldest baths possible a few times a week?


3. MY SON- I've been wondering how to transition him to a more appropriate diet for his general well being. So far, he's started to like buttery broth, bacon and eggs, and a few other oils/fats I put into his foods. He really liked those grains and all the sugar in the fruit I was giving him before.. in fact, he woke up this morning and said, "..ba-na-nas..?" I've been really lowering the fruit to about 3/4 berries and a couple bananas a day, lots of nuts, and fatty meat. I certainly dont want to compromise his little body in any way, but it seems much more risky to make adjustments in a toddlers diet and lifestyle than in mine.. Anyone have any experience with this?


4. EE- I've set aside time early each morning to either do resistance exercise or the full EE routine.. It seems like a good thing to do at least 2x a week, but since it may only be recommended to do resistance exercise 1-3x a week, perhaps I could do the EE- 3-4x a week. Is this too much?


5. SUPPLEMENTATION- after originally reading through Jack Kruse's site he had a whole bunch of supplemental recommendations and I purchased most of these, i.e. Co Q10, Magnesium, PQQ, daily multi, probiotics, etc... but I've been reading on this thread that some people prefer not to supplement or use supplements other than these that seem to help? I, so far, haven't experienced much stomach upset or digestive issues... But I don't plan on continuing to use a million supplements a day..

6. ENERGY- The energy in the mornings and even up until mid-day has been great! I have been able to get by easily with less than 8 hrs of sleep, but it's been a real drag, literally, to do much of anything past 2pm up until putting my little one to sleep at 8. I've been falling asleep in the rocking chair reading him his bedtime book, and he just looks at me like, "what the heck mom... it's not YOUR bedtime!?" :)
Is it fairly normal that this be experienced for the keto adaptation period and then.. a week or two into full/mild ketosis? I sure the nighttime exhaustion goes away, at least that I can finish up my house duties etc until 9 or 10pm or so...

7. IT- As I mentioned above, I'm doing just a liquid fast today- mainly fatty broth only in the morning and then nothing for the rest of day until tomorrow morning, hopefully this will be the finishing touch to kick me into Ketosis... luckily tomorrow is shopping day so I hope to go to the nearest Whole Foods and load up on all the fatty meat and pork that I can for the week. It seems like people have had alot of success with the "partial" IT... or eating normal one day and then eating only between certain hrs the next? Is this an every other day type of thing that people here have seen the most success with? I will begin the experimentation with this... Yet, I am sort of concerned about losing any more weight being at 105 lbs/45 k as mentioned.. :o


Wow- I feel like I wrote a whole book here... Thank you greatly for any suggestions or thoughts regarding all of this. Even though it's quite an adventure, I am SO EXCITED! Many blessings to all of you on your journeys!

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi VIJAYA, you have many good questions. I have posted comments to some of them below.

I'm sure you also get answers to many of your questions by reading (and also listening to) the related resources. I've linked to some that I've found to be useful.

Hello all,

I had some questions regarding the Keto Diet, and etc, that I wanted to share/ask. I joined these boards quite some time ago, but have not had a lot of time to ask these questions due to being a single mama of a very active 2 yr old boy (though I did officially introduce myself many months ago on the newbie board :) ). In my spare time, I've been reading through this thread from the beginning (still not up to the last page but working through it and all the wonderful info here!), as well as the Jack Kruse page, reading this book called "Grain Brain" by David Perlmutter, and doing my own personal experimentation. I find it awesomely fascinating that Neurologists and Neuro surgeons like the two mentioned above, both highly recommend this diet as the "key." As well as the IF, Cold baths, resistance training etc...

I know I still have alot of research and experimentation to do, and hope to purchase the Primal Bodies, Primal Minds book soon...

Yes, that book is very good. I recommend reading it, and it will answer many of your questions. Since you have a toddler to take care of you probably don't have that much spare time. A nice way to get familiar with Nora's work is to listen to her podcasts from a few years back. Look here:

_http://primalbody-primalmind.blogspot.fi

Be sure to click on 'older posts' to see all the episodes.

In my experience, I came out of an almost raw, low fat vegan diet.... In the beginning of this diet, it was great- had endless energy for awhile, but found it to be, perhaps a bit toxic for me, as I started breaking out and my teeth (as well as my poor little son's) began rotting from all of the fruit- despite brushing and swishing many times a day.

I then decided to add in beans and rice or other pseudo grains (having already cut out the wheat and glueten and processed foods), but this didnt really work out either as I've done allergy testing which indicated I had a bean allergy....

Somehow I kept coming across this thread and info on the keto diet kept "coming my way"... so I decided to listen, despite feeling very bad, on some levels for considering the harming of animals that has to take place AND having a partner/boyfriend that has been a long time vegan of 12 yrs. Yet- I recalled my experience living with a First nations shaman and his family in the wilderness of the Yukon in Canada, some years before, and they ate mainly off the land and also mainly a keto diet/ yet perhaps high protein too... I decided that try the diet and made peace with animal product consumption by doing my best to purchase only grass fed/humanely raised meat and saying a little prayer before eating to give gratitude to the animal and for this food to nurture my body and brain.

Yes, it's important to not do ALL the changes suddenly at once. The body needs time to adapt. Younger people seem to be able to make the switch with more ease than those who are older. I hope you have had the chance to listen to the latest SOTT-radio show where the author of The Vegetarian Myth, Lierre Keith was interviewed. If not, you can find it here:

_http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sottnet/2013/10/06/lierre-keith-interview-the-vegetarian-myth

My boyfriend may think this is nuts, but until you do the research and feel the inner resonace, I can certainly understand the vast majority of people being very alarmed by such a thing, per conditioning and ignorance to it.

Yes, plus that people eating grains and sugars/carbohydrates are addicted to them. They are "carboholics" and like many alcoholics, in denial.

One of the main reasons I felt interested in this diet besides the general health and wellbeing it's reported to bring, the activating of the "wild" DNA, etc.. is that there is some research/studies that have been done to promote it as being helpful in balancing and calming the "bi-polar" individual.. I was diagnosed with this very young and while on a horrible SAD diet and lots of terrible psych drugs in my teens, I nearly killed my body with all of this junk and toxicity... I've tried numerous herbal supplements to help with this and have achieved some success with them, but since starting the keto diet there has been a VERY NOTICEABLE feeling of groundedness, calm, and stabilization! I can certainly test this out because I have a sweet little boy that loves to push all of my buttons all day long to see what reactions he can get. Now that I've stepped into this keto diet (or moving towards this), hes seen a much more calm and leveled out mama, and it's been a nice side effect that he seems to really want to be closer and more open with me... yay!

That's great news. It's amazing how powerful and healing a healthy diet can have. Are you still on any medication?

All that being said (thank you for listening ;) )... I have been working towards ketosis for some time now. I'm hoping that posting my experience and questions here is the appropriate place ! :) Really I am so grateful for this site and also the SOTT site for spreading such imperative info to help the awakening human to help themselves, and be of help to others. What a blessing to be able to educate, connect, and share in this way!

Here are a few good SOTT articles in case you missed them:

Tips & Tricks for Starting (or Restarting) Low Carb Pt 1

Tips & Tricks for Starting (or Restarting) Low Carb Pt 2

The Ketogenic Diet - An Overview

Gluten: What You Don't Know Might Kill You

The Naive Vegetarian

The Truth About Vegetarianism

Everything About Fat

Ketosis 101: Part 1

I don't know if I've been in ketosis this whole time, but I ordered the ketostix, for now, and hope to receive them today. My mom (who is an RN) says she definitely smells the acetone like breath... yuck! I've decided to spend the rest of today doing fasting except for some fatty bone broth I've made, maybe for dinner and then continue the fast until ketosis kicks in officially.

In the long run, the ketostix are not a reliable way to measure the level of ketosis. Here's a quote:

_http://ketopia.com/why-you-need-to-stop-worrying-about-the-color-of-your-ketostix/

"So quite literally, after a few weeks into your low carb ketogenic diet, you’ll likely start seeing a change in your ketone levels as measured by ketostix. This is completely normal and does not mean you are having trouble with your diet. It doesn’t even suggest that you aren’t in ketosis anymore, because it can’t. Ketosticks are unable to measure the type of ketone that constitutes the majority present in your blood and urine at this point.

This doesn’t mean you have no way to monitor your ketosis: If you really want to know something important about ketones, you’d measure your serum beta-hydroxybutyrate levels."

Even though I don't know if I've been truly and fully in ketosis, this "keto-adaptation" time HAS been difficult due to...
-less energy, especially in the afternoon and then by 6 or 7 at night I'm feeling exhausted (which could still be considered normal in taking care of a 2 yr old) but by 8 or 9pm I can barely keep awake and I knew this was hitting hard last night when I mentally wanted and intended to go outside in the beautiful Arizona cooler weather for my last American spirit but then just couldn't make it and collapsed on the couch..
-other people's opinions (not that difficult)

Yes, adaptation is tough, and it can take a longer time than suggested in many books. For me it took a full year and a half to feel completely stable (I don't mean to discourage you here!). Having proper levels of minerals like salt, potassium and magnesium helps a lot. Remember, in the beginning you will need more salt than you are used to, as explained in the resources.

Yet, Ive already noticed some remarkable positives, one of which I mentioned above:
-feeling of inner calm and grounded-ness
-also spontaneously waking early in the morn (around 4am) has been wonderful as opposed to staying awake each night until 2am and then struggling to wake up with my little one
-feeling very mentally clear and awake when I do get up early

Yes, even with a poor nights sleep one can make it through the day without problems. However, it's good to get at least 6 hours of good quality sleep. Sleeping in complete darkness and taking magnesium before going to bed has helped many members. Here's a good thread on the subject:

Are YouGetting Enough Sleep? Sleeping properly?

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

4. EE- I've set aside time early each morning to either do resistance exercise or the full EE routine.. It seems like a good thing to do at least 2x a week, but since it may only be recommended to do resistance exercise 1-3x a week, perhaps I could do the EE- 3-4x a week. Is this too much?

The recommendation is not to do the full EE program more than two times a week. Pipe Breathing is okay to use more often. The idea is that the purging and cleansing happens gently and gradually. Overdoing it will be counterproductive. Since you have a history with bipolar symptoms, it is probably best not to do the Beatha (Bioenergetic breathing) portion of the program, at all. Gently does it. :)

 

[luke wilson]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yeah, I've used D3 supplements that had K2 combined. It's common to take butter oil supplements for K2. Or you can eat lots of grass fed butter if you can tolerate butter.

I added K2 and so far so good.

The back pain is no longer there. But I have noticed some things since, I am not sure it is due to the supplements.

- I get somewhat more deeply tired at the gym (muscle fatigue).
- immediately after taking the supplements, my stomach for a couple of minutes feels like it is churning.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi VIJAYA

I am one of the skinny people at 45 kilos/ 105 lbs at around 5'5ft. So I'm really trying to gain a few pounds/kilos...

Be patient with this. Many people find they lose weight in the beginning, even if they feel they don't have any to spare! Most of what you lose in the beginning is water weight. The workouts certainly help with retaining muscle mass.

[quote author=VIJAYA]
This week I've been (finally) lowering my carbs below 30g a day and more towards 10g a day. Cutting out the berries has been difficult, but surely worth it for now. Still working on getting the appropriate protein/fat ratio going. I think I equated that for my body weight x 1.5, I need about 70g of protein a day (that seems high?) and thus to keep the 4:1 fat to protein ratio, would need about 280g of fat a day?
[/quote]

1.5g/kg body weight is the high end of the spectrum, usually only reserved for athletes. You might find it more reasonable at 1g/kg of body weight. Some even go as low as 0.8g/kg.

And you've made a common error in the calculation of total fat. The 4:1 ratio is in calories (kcal), not grams. So you want 4 parts fat in kcal to 1 part protein, in kcal, not in total weight of macronutrients. So, using your 70g of protein as a starting point (even though you may want to lower that at some point), since protein is 4 kcal per gram, you're looking at a total of 280 kcals protein. To get the 4:1 ratio, multiply this by 4; you get 1120 to get your total fat kcal. Since fat is 9kcal/g, divide that number by 9 to get the total fat grams = 124.4g.

So, to summarize, you're looking to get 70g of protein, 124.4g of fat. Hope I didn't lose you there (let me know if you need clarification).

[quote author=VIJAYA]
If that's correct I've been getting WAY below this by about 100gs, so I need to amp up there immediately!
[/quote]

Looks like you need to add another 25g or so of fat - not too bad. Remember to increase fat slowly so as not to overwhelm your body's ability to digest it. Taking bile salts (ox bile) can be helpful during transition.

[quote author=VIJAYA]
Even though I don't know if I've been truly and fully in ketosis, this "keto-adaptation" time HAS been difficult due to...
-less energy, especially in the afternoon and then by 6 or 7 at night I'm feeling exhausted (which could still be considered normal in taking care of a 2 yr old) but by 8 or 9pm I can barely keep awake and I knew this was hitting hard last night when I mentally wanted and intended to go outside in the beautiful Arizona cooler weather for my last American spirit but then just couldn't make it and collapsed on the couch..
[/quote]

Yep, the low energy is common during transition. The articles Aragorn posted give a few helpful hints on smoothing out the transition some (MCT oil and L-carnitine help), but unfortunately it's just something you have to go through. It took my body a good 3 weeks or so before I started to feel back to normal. Your sleep will normalize after this period also.

[quote author=VIJAYA]
-other people's opinions (not that difficult)
[/quote]

Always a challenge. Feel free to post about it here on the forum if you want some advice in particular situations.

[quote author=VIJAYA]
I wonder how long the full transition will take!
[/quote]

It seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Hang in there!
I'm only going to address some of your questions below. Hopefully others will chime in with their experiences to give you some guidance on some of your other questions. You'll find some of the answers within this thread as you go along, also.

[quote author=VIJAYA]
5. SUPPLEMENTATION- after originally reading through Jack Kruse's site he had a whole bunch of supplemental recommendations and I purchased most of these, i.e. Co Q10, Magnesium, PQQ, daily multi, probiotics, etc... but I've been reading on this thread that some people prefer not to supplement or use supplements other than these that seem to help? I, so far, haven't experienced much stomach upset or digestive issues... But I don't plan on continuing to use a million supplements a day..
[/quote]

The problem with reading multiple sources is that everyone has certain recommendations for supplements and you end up with way more than you need. Realistically, you should be able to keep supplements to a reasonable number. I don't see any reason for the CoQ10, PQQ or multivitamin, for instance. They might be helpful for some, but I'd say they're far from essential. Magnesium, probiotics (or fermented foods), potassium, lots of salt and maybe L-carnitine if you need a little help with transitioning.

Digestive support like Betaine HCl (note, that last letter is a lowercase "L", not an uppercase "I"!), ox bile, digestive enzymes, maybe even apple cider vinegar, can be helpful if you're experiencing digestive upset. A lot of times you can find digestive enzyme blends that include all of these (NOW makes one called Super Enzymes and if you're in Canada you can find my very favourite enzyme supplement of all time, Ultragest by Vitamost). Every other supplement I'd consider a bonus; nonessential except in specific cases.

[quote author=VIJAYA]
6. ENERGY- The energy in the mornings and even up until mid-day has been great! I have been able to get by easily with less than 8 hrs of sleep, but it's been a real drag, literally, to do much of anything past 2pm up until putting my little one to sleep at 8. I've been falling asleep in the rocking chair reading him his bedtime book, and he just looks at me like, "what the heck mom... it's not YOUR bedtime!?" :)
Is it fairly normal that this be experienced for the keto adaptation period and then.. a week or two into full/mild ketosis? I sure the nighttime exhaustion goes away, at least that I can finish up my house duties etc until 9 or 10pm or so...
[/quote]

Your energy levels will normalize once you make the transition. In my experience, you just end up with consistent energy throughout the day - no particular ups or downs, just steady, consistent energy. It's really great!

[quote author=VIJAYA]
7. IT- As I mentioned above, I'm doing just a liquid fast today- mainly fatty broth only in the morning and then nothing for the rest of day until tomorrow morning, hopefully this will be the finishing touch to kick me into Ketosis... luckily tomorrow is shopping day so I hope to go to the nearest Whole Foods and load up on all the fatty meat and pork that I can for the week. It seems like people have had alot of success with the "partial" IT... or eating normal one day and then eating only between certain hrs the next? Is this an every other day type of thing that people here have seen the most success with? I will begin the experimentation with this... Yet, I am sort of concerned about losing any more weight being at 105 lbs/45 k as mentioned.. :o
[/quote]

It's not really necessary to go overboard on the IF. Once or twice a week is plenty; you don't need to be fasting every other day. You can experiment with this, though.

Good luck with all of this, VIJAYA! It sounds like you're doing really well with how things are progressing for you so far :)

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So, to summarize, you're looking to get 70g of protein, 124.4g of fat. Hope I didn't lose you there (let me know if you need clarification).

To make this easier you might just want to multiply your target protein weight by 1.3 - 1.5, which gives you the amount of fat you should ingest. I agree that 1.5 g/kg of protein is at the higher end, you might find it more difficult to maintain a ketotic state this way, as some of the unused amino acids are transformed into glucose, unless you train very hard (which in itself is probably not overly healthy - I do kettlebells 2 - 3 times a week when I am at home, otherwise I do a modified 7-minutes program every other day, which takes about 15 minutes ). But in the end it is a very individual thing and you will have to experiment a bit.

Other than that not much to add to what others have posted - when I started out with the KD I had all sorts of supplements. I have gotten rid of most of them by now, I only use magnesium maleate, trace minerals (when I do EDTA cycles), celtic seas salt and the odd selenium or zinc supplement.

Once you are established in ketosis full-time it seems that your requirements for supplements and vitamins decreases, as your body is becoming metabolically more efficient (I don't have the specifics on that).

But it seems to me that you are on the right track - and as others have pointed out, it just takes time. Just be patient, don't push too hard and things will work their way.

 

[VIJAYA]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thank you all SO MUCH! I plan to respond further soon, right now I'm taking into account all the rise recommendations made and how I can begin to incorporate these...

Really it is incredibly heart-warming and helpful to have these boards and this thread to share and ask questions... I am grateful and much relieved!

Sometimes I guess, like many, it's helpful to have that reassurance that I DONT need to push myself too much, and like Aragorn said, "easy does it." Yes, I believe this to be very true, in spite of myself! ha....

Reading reading reading.. alot of work.. but I'm certainly not complaining... maybe the "wild DNA" are slowly activating because it is so refreshing and illuminating to be on the path of self-discovery and wellness.

Blessings to you all.

 

[VIJAYA]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi :)

I've been going through the links provided, one at a time, and will hopefully be ordering a few things today:
-digestive enzymes (with the Ox bile + Betine HCl and more)
-potassium (plus eating an avocado a day)
-L-Acetyl cystine
-Alpha Lipoic acid

I am looking forward to a smoother transition with the help of these, the magnesium, probiotics, and fermented foods I already use, the Primal Bodies book for ref, and a good amount of himalyan salt in the water I've been drinking ..

Yet interestingly, the one supplement I have been taking for years with definite success, a natural one to help with Bi-polar symptoms (called Eskaloft), I just discovered upon re-reading the ingredients (with some knowledge now of what the ingredients actually are!) that this product is not only to help with moods but to heal the gut. Wow, that has me going.... AHA! Fascinating... When I went off of it for a short time about 2 years ago, I noticed a significant decline in my ability to stay calm and keep it together :o Of course my eating habits then were still atrocious!

I'm wondering since it has some of the same ingredients of the supplements which I planned to purchase above if I still need to purchase all of them? It's ingredients are:
-vit B6 25mg
-folate 400mcg
-vit B12 2000mcg
-DMAE 200mg
-N-acetyl-L-tyrosine 200mg (bioactive form of L-Tyrosine)
-St Johns wart 150 mg
-GABA 100mg
-Rhodiola root 100mg
-5HTP 50mg
-L-theanine 50mg
-Lithium Orotate 5mg (I believe this is sourced from seaweed)


A few more questions to anyone with experience in these arenas :) :


-RESISTANCE TRAINING: I plan to purchase a set of kettlebells soon and am looking for a good workout with these that is HI. The ones I've seen so far on Youtube seem to work with the formula of 30 seconds HI then 15 seconds rest and so on doing 6 reps each, I believe..
I remember reading earlier in the thread that Laura was doing something more like 1 min HI, then 2 min rest, then onto the next muscle group.. is this the better way to go?

-Also, have folks here had more success with early morning workouts or early evening workouts (closer to bedtime?) I recall reading on Jack Kruse's site (not that I refer to him necessarily for the "direction" in this whole process, but his site was really the first one involving the KD that I read through) that he recommended not working out except after 5pm. I'm not sure the reason for this? I don't plan on starting these workouts until I'm officially in ketosis (and have checked and made sure) because right now I just dont seem to have the energy... Although, I may be in ketosis now, my mom has commented on the "acetone breath" ... yay!?! haha


-ACETONE BREATH- regarding this, I've read somewhere that it doesn't ever go away on ketosis, but others have said it does once the keto-adaption period is over... anyone have experience with it discontinuing? or continuing? :o

-RE: Bipolar issues- I haven't been on ANY pharma meds for this since being pregnant, years ago... I wouldn't touch the stuff again. After years of lithium, xanax, prozac, and every med under the sun in my teenage year, I can certainly say with confidence they DONT WORK and they make you CRAZY. I once ended up in the ER, when I was 22, just confused and most likely lithium toxic... the people there just said basically, there's nothing wrong with you.. but I felt like I was living in a nightmare. Didn't help having an RN mom who insisted I take the stuff to live with her.. Yuck- but it's given me a greater understanding of others who have dealt with these conditions and the medical professionals who seem to always want to drug them up. So glad to have found a much better way.

Since I've switched to a higher fat diet and now to the KD, my moods are incredibly stable (just as the two studies done on BP females have shown). So I'm wondering if it's all due to diet and lack of correct minerals/vitamins? In that case- do I really have Bipolar disorder (as they say it can be a lifelong "condition") or were the symptoms of this just a result of a terrible diet, uninformed decisions, and harming the body with a ton of medical toxins via prescription drugs?? I don't know.

I don't plan to do the bio-breathing on EE, just to be same, but I still wonder, once I've been on this diet for awhile, for this theraputic purpose among others, and have seen that no bi-polar symptoms remain- would it hurt to try it out? Still I wont take any chances, but I've just been considering all of this..


Thanks again for any thoughts, recommendations, or suggestions!

 

[cubbex]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have been listening to an Underground Wellness podcast by Dr. Datis Kharrazian, discussing topics covered in his book Why Isn't My Brain Working?. The reason I mention it here is that some of us have experienced quite a lot of "gut trouble" while experimenting with KD, and Dr. Kharrazian points out something that might seem obvious in retrospect but that I for one had pretty much overlooked.

If you gut is acting up, you might have a problem with your gut microbes. But then again you might not. There is something else that can exert a huge influence on the gut: your brain. While we know that a problem in the gut can lead to inflammation in the brain (especially when there is a permeability problem), causation can run in the other direction as well. If you have brain problems (as I do), those can directly contribute to gut problems.

It should come as no surprise to those that have been around here a while that the main channel for control of the gut by the brain is the vagus nerve. What's great, though, is that what Dr. Kharrazian recommends as a first measure for addressing problems with vagal control of the gut is stimulating the vagus nerve!

He does not actually recommend pipe breathing in the podcast, though he does mention some other exercises. I have other vagus-related problems that I already knew about and this gives me some new things to try (EE has not helped very much with my particular issues, though the pipe breathing seems to help a little).

Thanks for mentioning, that pretty much explains my doubts, when I breath out I try to stimulate the insides of my belly and it helps me to relax more. I really have no ways to count my carbs or protein but my portions more or less, and I've been strict on diet. What I've noticed is that you are not hungry through all the day, I may have just one meal and it's all I need, and I do not become tired nor I crave for more food. Also I've been having a better sleep.

 

[VIJAYA]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thoughts about Ketosis and Candida

I was assuming (maybe wrongly) that since ketones cannot be fuel or food for cancer growth in the system, as carbs can be, that likewise ketones would also not be a source of food for candida.

After having been on a raw (high fruit) low (very low) fat vegan diet for some time, I became concerned of the candida risks if ever I were to raise the fat...

Now having switched to the KD, I did some research around Ketosis and Candida this morning and found this...

"Avoid very low carb.

Paul Jaminet [who had a candida overgrowth problem, and argues for use of "safe starches"], who suffered from candida overgrowth, argues that since candida (being eukaryotes) have mitochondria that can feed on both ketones and carbs (as opposed to prokaryote bacteria without mitochondria), going very low carb or ketogenic will only provide more fuel for the overgrowth. Furthermore, since ketones are water-soluble and pass easily through cellular membranes, ketones will actually be a more accessible food source for candida. Don’t go high-carb, since any extra glucose will just be food for the yeast, but don’t go ketogenic, either. Stick to around 100-150 grams of carbs while still limiting sugar. Although other sources do recommend going as low-carb as possible, my money’s on Paul.

Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/candida/#ixzz2hhkAyAlc
"


This is from marksdailyapple.com, and he recommends the paleo and other things which I don't necessarily agree with, but this brought back the possible concern of candida. I don't feel that I suffer from many of the symptoms, but I'm wondering if anyone on the KD has taken any further precautions, besides probiotics, to combat this issue... or if there is any literature on why this isn't a concern?

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

"Avoid very low carb.

Paul Jaminet [who had a candida overgrowth problem, and argues for use of "safe starches"], who suffered from candida overgrowth, argues that since candida (being eukaryotes) have mitochondria that can feed on both ketones and carbs (as opposed to prokaryote bacteria without mitochondria), going very low carb or ketogenic will only provide more fuel for the overgrowth. Furthermore, since ketones are water-soluble and pass easily through cellular membranes, ketones will actually be a more accessible food source for candida. Don’t go high-carb, since any extra glucose will just be food for the yeast, but don’t go ketogenic, either. Stick to around 100-150 grams of carbs while still limiting sugar. Although other sources do recommend going as low-carb as possible, my money’s on Paul.

Read more: _http://www.marksdailyapple.com/candida/#ixzz2hhkAyAlc

This is from marksdailyapple.com, and he recommends the paleo and other things which I don't necessarily agree with, but this brought back the possible concern of candida. I don't feel that I suffer from many of the symptoms, but I'm wondering if anyone on the KD has taken any further precautions, besides probiotics, to combat this issue... or if there is any literature on why this isn't a concern?

You can use the search function of the forum with the keywords "Paul Jaminet". We have discussed these problems in the Life Without Bread thread. I think you'll find the discussion in that thread very informative.

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