Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well, I've been watching videos about it and I became a little confused. Thing is that some say that low carbohydrates is good for bodybuilding and some say it depends, on how long the workout and how intense it is. My doubt is not about that, my doubt is that this guy, that has been coached by ben pak the guy of the vids I posted before:

http://youtu.be/CNsgIdWwiBk
Will a low carb diet make you lose muscle?

Thing is, he says in that and another video, that a low carb diet helps to increase cortisol and it gives you less endurance while exercising, to what I say is true because I remember a period I ate a lot of food with carbs, though I felt bad because I'm supposed to avoid them, I was able to perform better. Now that I've been avoiding them I just can't perform as before, I can't endure as much as before and that means that I can endure the recommended 45 to 60 minutes of exercise.

But, I know that when I eat carbs I have chronic depression, I have sudden and horrible change of moods, more anxiety and eventually more stress and with that cortisol of course.

Do you know anything about it? any source of information about this you can share?

I think it's important to remember, Prometeo, that body builders do not have the same goals that we do. A diet that is appropriate for maximizing muscle mass while limiting body fat percentage is not necessarily the same as a diet that leads to optimal functioning of the brain, organs and immune system. Body builders have the ultimate goal of appearance (and as distorted as that body image can often be is something else to keep in mind).

It's the same as a lot of the cross-fit guys who give advice on raising carbs to increase performance. Again, they're attempting different goals - to fuel what could be argued to be over-exercising routines day in and day out. Again, performance. We're not looking to maximize physical performance in terms of brute strength or endurance. We're looking to maximize the performance of our bodies on a daily basis, get our brains working their best, make sure we're not vulnerable to disease, increasing energy to allow us to WORK.

While some of the advice we follow may overlap with bodybuilders or crossfitters, I think it's important to keep in mind that the ultimate goals are quite different. At a certain point the paths are going to diverge. It's inevitable. I think you have to make a decision about what YOUR ultimate goal is - are you trying to LOOK good, or BE good?

FWIW

 

[Stoneboss]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well, I've been watching videos about it and I became a little confused. Thing is that some say that low carbohydrates is good for bodybuilding and some say it depends, on how long the workout and how intense it is. My doubt is not about that, my doubt is that this guy, that has been coached by ben pak the guy of the vids I posted before:

http://youtu.be/CNsgIdWwiBk
Will a low carb diet make you lose muscle?

Thing is, he says in that and another video, that a low carb diet helps to increase cortisol and it gives you less endurance while exercising, to what I say is true because I remember a period I ate a lot of food with carbs, though I felt bad because I'm supposed to avoid them, I was able to perform better. Now that I've been avoiding them I just can't perform as before, I can't endure as much as before and that means that I can endure the recommended 45 to 60 minutes of exercise.

But, I know that when I eat carbs I have chronic depression, I have sudden and horrible change of moods, more anxiety and eventually more stress and with that cortisol of course.

Do you know anything about it? any source of information about this you can share?

I think it's important to remember, Prometeo, that body builders do not have the same goals that we do. A diet that is appropriate for maximizing muscle mass while limiting body fat percentage is not necessarily the same as a diet that leads to optimal functioning of the brain, organs and immune system. Body builders have the ultimate goal of appearance (and as distorted as that body image can often be is something else to keep in mind).

It's the same as a lot of the cross-fit guys who give advice on raising carbs to increase performance. Again, they're attempting different goals - to fuel what could be argued to be over-exercising routines day in and day out. Again, performance. We're not looking to maximize physical performance in terms of brute strength or endurance. We're looking to maximize the performance of our bodies on a daily basis, get our brains working their best, make sure we're not vulnerable to disease, increasing energy to allow us to WORK.

While some of the advice we follow may overlap with bodybuilders or crossfitters, I think it's important to keep in mind that the ultimate goals are quite different. At a certain point the paths are going to diverge. It's inevitable. I think you have to make a decision about what YOUR ultimate goal is - are you trying to LOOK good, or BE good?

FWIW

Hi Prometeo, although I agree with dugdeep that body builders do not have the same goals that we do, I still think that body builders would have more benefit, to fulfill their goals, on a high fat low carb diet, or a ketogenic diet. When I was in my early twenties, I was into the whole body building thing. I was on a high carb (and high protein) diet, and would work out 4 to 5 days a week, usually about 90 minutes per work out. After a couple of years of very strenuous training I got to be very muscular and strong, being able to bench press almost twice my body weight and for leg squats, almost 3 times my body weight.

I quit body building when I was about 25 and lost most of the muscularity and strength that I had attained over the last 30 years or so. I'm now 53, and about 4 or 5 months ago I started to do some resistance training (high intensity training) not for "body building" reasons, but because it's part of the ketogenic diet. I eat a lot of fat, very few (if any) carbs, and spend no more than fifteen minutes (but a very intense 15 minutes) in the gym twice a week. That's it... and the results are amazing. I'm now just as muscular and strong as I was back then in my early twenties, and with very little body fat.

I feel I have much more endurance fueling my body with fat than fueling it with carbs. But there is something else that really helps... doing E.E. daily. Having the fuel derived from animal fat gives you the extra energy for endurance but you also need the "will power" in the mind to do that last repetition to exhaust the muscles completely, which is what high intensity training is all about. I believe that it's because of E.E. that I can do that "super effort". Just my 2 cents... ;)

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think that we are talking about two different things here - bodybuilding (and other high-performance athletics) and endurance.

I think a ketogenic diet gives you much more long-term endurance. You can go for hours without hitting the proverbial "brick wall", because your body can tap into almost unlimited energy stored in your fat. Whether your energy system is more efficient or not - I don't know, the data is conflicting, most of the studies done are very short term, so they might not reflect what we are doing.

On the other side if we are talking peak performance, like sprinting, or lift weights as heavy as possible, or maybe even run a marathon in the shortest possible time, then carbs might be better, but relying on a steady external supply. But this is not something that would have counted much in hunter-gatherer life - they would have to be able to hunt for very long periods of time, running down their prey, or be able to run short distances at maximum speed. I believe that our bodh is not built to break athletic records in various disciplines which is all the hype today, and probably this is only possible if the energy supply stems from carbs.

And this is really my goal - to be able to go on and on without faltering - not to run a marathon in under 3 hours.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The amount of muscle you can gain also seems heavily dependent on genetics, and massive carb loading is a way for people to overcome this. However, as mentioned, it will will do more harm than good over time.

My experience is the opposite to Stoneboss's, in that my body naturally fairly skinny and short, and just doesn't seem like it was built for lifting weights. I've never been able to bench press more than 70 kg despite all kinds of different training strategies, and generally weight lifting just isn't for me.

I think it's a good idea to ask yourself why you want to become big and strong? You could spend 5 years getting massive, but where is the practicality? Sure, you could move heavy things, but I can do that just as easily by working together with a friend. And who wants to have to maintain that kind of bulk in an "end of the world as we know it" scenario?

 

[Stoneboss]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The amount of muscle you can gain also seems heavily dependent on genetics, and massive carb loading is a way for people to overcome this. However, as mentioned, it will will do more harm than good over time.

My experience is the opposite to Stoneboss's, in that my body naturally fairly skinny and short, and just doesn't seem like it was built for lifting weights. I've never been able to bench press more than 70 kg despite all kinds of different training strategies, and generally weight lifting just isn't for me.

I think it's a good idea to ask yourself why you want to become big and strong? You could spend 5 years getting massive, but where is the practicality? Sure, you could move heavy things, but I can do that just as easily by working together with a friend. And who wants to have to maintain that kind of bulk in an "end of the world as we know it" scenario?

I agree Carlisle, that muscle gain can have a lot to do with genetics. As I mentioned above, I did not start working out again to "body build" since I'd given up the whole body building thing 30 years ago. I just started doing high intensity exercises which is a form of resistance training to compliment the ketogenic diet. I was just trying to point out that (at least in my case), I get the same results (as far as muscle gain) in 30 minutes of exercises per week with no carb consumption, as a typical bodybuilder would working out 5 or 6 hours a week and consuming high carbs. Like you, I am also naturally fairly skinny and short, and maybe the muscle gain is do to "genetics".

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The amount of muscle you can gain also seems heavily dependent on genetics, and massive carb loading is a way for people to overcome this. However, as mentioned, it will will do more harm than good over time.

My experience is the opposite to Stoneboss's, in that my body naturally fairly skinny and short, and just doesn't seem like it was built for lifting weights. I've never been able to bench press more than 70 kg despite all kinds of different training strategies, and generally weight lifting just isn't for me.

I think it's a good idea to ask yourself why you want to become big and strong? You could spend 5 years getting massive, but where is the practicality? Sure, you could move heavy things, but I can do that just as easily by working together with a friend. And who wants to have to maintain that kind of bulk in an "end of the world as we know it" scenario?

I agree Carlisle, that muscle gain can have a lot to do with genetics. As I mentioned above, I did not start working out again to "body build" since I'd given up the whole body building thing 30 years ago. I just started doing high intensity exercises which is a form of resistance training to compliment the ketogenic diet. I was just trying to point out that (at least in my case), I get the same results (as far as muscle gain) in 30 minutes of exercises per week with no carb consumption, as a typical bodybuilder would working out 5 or 6 hours a week and consuming high carbs. Like you, I am also naturally fairly skinny and short, and maybe the muscle gain is do to "genetics".

Just to clarify I wasn't questioning your motivations in particular (you made it pretty clear that you were doing it for health reasons); it was addressed more to anyone still trying to "bodybuild". Sorry for the miscommunication :)

 

[Stoneboss]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The amount of muscle you can gain also seems heavily dependent on genetics, and massive carb loading is a way for people to overcome this. However, as mentioned, it will will do more harm than good over time.

My experience is the opposite to Stoneboss's, in that my body naturally fairly skinny and short, and just doesn't seem like it was built for lifting weights. I've never been able to bench press more than 70 kg despite all kinds of different training strategies, and generally weight lifting just isn't for me.

I think it's a good idea to ask yourself why you want to become big and strong? You could spend 5 years getting massive, but where is the practicality? Sure, you could move heavy things, but I can do that just as easily by working together with a friend. And who wants to have to maintain that kind of bulk in an "end of the world as we know it" scenario?

I agree Carlisle, that muscle gain can have a lot to do with genetics. As I mentioned above, I did not start working out again to "body build" since I'd given up the whole body building thing 30 years ago. I just started doing high intensity exercises which is a form of resistance training to compliment the ketogenic diet. I was just trying to point out that (at least in my case), I get the same results (as far as muscle gain) in 30 minutes of exercises per week with no carb consumption, as a typical bodybuilder would working out 5 or 6 hours a week and consuming high carbs. Like you, I am also naturally fairly skinny and short, and maybe the muscle gain is do to "genetics".

Just to clarify I wasn't questioning your motivations in particular (you made it pretty clear that you were doing it for health reasons); it was addressed more to anyone still trying to "bodybuild". Sorry for the miscommunication :)

No need to apologize Carlisle, I realize now that I was a bit on the defensive side for no good reason...

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

There's information about professional athletes that are on Paleo and also Ketogenic diets performing very well. In fact, better than carb consumers. So it's not a cut and dried thing. Also Phinney and Volek have a book - The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (same authors as The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living) - that is supposed to go into the issues, but I haven't read that one.

Also have to say that I agree that bodybuilding and performance in general, are not why we are on the ketogenic diet and why many of us did heavy resistance exercises for at least 6 weeks to "reset" damaged/dysfunctional mtDNA.

 

[luke wilson]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have added vitamin D3 supplements into my diet in the past 13 days. I only take 400IU per day usually in the morning with breakfast. I also take calcium, magnesium and zinc supplements.

Since I started, I noticed that I have a sort of mild lower back pain on some days just after taking the supplements.

So I did some research on the internet and on the forum and found that some people have been reporting this when they started on the vitamin D supplement.

In one of the health forums on the internet, someone has speculated that

The body needs Vit D to absorb calcium. Where there is Vit D deficiency, this can lead to hypomineralisation of the bones, as calcium is taken from the skeleton, which can lead to weakened bones. Just a thought, but could it be when you start taking high strength Vit D it works the other way... there is sudden mineralisation of the bones as calcium is restored. Hence the explanation for more aches and pains is the process of mineralisation ie the bones getting stronger.

My question is, should I drop the Vitamin D3 supplementation? Have other people experienced this before?

Other than the lower back pain, I haven't noticed any other adverse effects.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have added vitamin D3 supplements into my diet in the past 13 days. I only take 400IU per day usually in the morning with breakfast. I also take calcium, magnesium and zinc supplements.

Since I started, I noticed that I have a sort of mild lower back pain on some days just after taking the supplements.

So I did some research on the internet and on the forum and found that some people have been reporting this when they started on the vitamin D supplement.

In one of the health forums on the internet, someone has speculated that

The body needs Vit D to absorb calcium. Where there is Vit D deficiency, this can lead to hypomineralisation of the bones, as calcium is taken from the skeleton, which can lead to weakened bones. Just a thought, but could it be when you start taking high strength Vit D it works the other way... there is sudden mineralisation of the bones as calcium is restored. Hence the explanation for more aches and pains is the process of mineralisation ie the bones getting stronger.

My question is, should I drop the Vitamin D3 supplementation? Have other people experienced this before?

Other than the lower back pain, I haven't noticed any other adverse effects.

400 IU is a minuscule dose (not at all "high strength"), so I seriously doubt that this would cause any issue. It might be that something in the supplements aren't agreeing with you in some way. Check for additives and constituents to see if anything jumps out at you. Lower back pain may be associated with kidney function.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have added vitamin D3 supplements into my diet in the past 13 days. I only take 400IU per day usually in the morning with breakfast. I also take calcium, magnesium and zinc supplements.

Since I started, I noticed that I have a sort of mild lower back pain on some days just after taking the supplements.

So I did some research on the internet and on the forum and found that some people have been reporting this when they started on the vitamin D supplement.

In one of the health forums on the internet, someone has speculated that

The body needs Vit D to absorb calcium. Where there is Vit D deficiency, this can lead to hypomineralisation of the bones, as calcium is taken from the skeleton, which can lead to weakened bones. Just a thought, but could it be when you start taking high strength Vit D it works the other way... there is sudden mineralisation of the bones as calcium is restored. Hence the explanation for more aches and pains is the process of mineralisation ie the bones getting stronger.

My question is, should I drop the Vitamin D3 supplementation? Have other people experienced this before?

Other than the lower back pain, I haven't noticed any other adverse effects.

400 IU is a minuscule dose (not at all "high strength"), so I seriously doubt that this would cause any issue. It might be that something in the supplements aren't agreeing with you in some way. Check for additives and constituents to see if anything jumps out at you. Lower back pain may be associated with kidney function.

Quite agree with dugdeep ...

The other thing it might be is just plain and simple back ache - as in trigger points back ache. The way to find out – and to treat it - is to use a hard ball (e.g. tennis ball) and lean your body against a wall onto is tennis ball. Then you roll your body over the ball directing it where the pain is. You have to do this for about 30 - 60 seconds and you have to feel a sort of intense, but sweet pain. If it is a trigger point problem, the pain will be instantly better. But it will also come back after a short while - just repeat. After a few days of repeats the pain will be gone.

In my experience the vast majority of back pain is trigger point related. The difficutly is to pick the rest.

If it's not trigger pain - continue searching ...

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have added vitamin D3 supplements into my diet in the past 13 days. I only take 400IU per day usually in the morning with breakfast. I also take calcium, magnesium and zinc supplements.

Since I started, I noticed that I have a sort of mild lower back pain on some days just after taking the supplements.

So I did some research on the internet and on the forum and found that some people have been reporting this when they started on the vitamin D supplement.

In one of the health forums on the internet, someone has speculated that

The body needs Vit D to absorb calcium. Where there is Vit D deficiency, this can lead to hypomineralisation of the bones, as calcium is taken from the skeleton, which can lead to weakened bones. Just a thought, but could it be when you start taking high strength Vit D it works the other way... there is sudden mineralisation of the bones as calcium is restored. Hence the explanation for more aches and pains is the process of mineralisation ie the bones getting stronger.

My question is, should I drop the Vitamin D3 supplementation? Have other people experienced this before?

Other than the lower back pain, I haven't noticed any other adverse effects.

400 IU is a minuscule dose (not at all "high strength"), so I seriously doubt that this would cause any issue. It might be that something in the supplements aren't agreeing with you in some way. Check for additives and constituents to see if anything jumps out at you. Lower back pain may be associated with kidney function.

Also, if you do decide to increase the dose of D3, make sure you also supplement with vitamin k2 (otherwise, it could lead to imbalances). This will prevent calcium deposition in the wrong places, i.e. soft tissue. By the way higher D3 supplementation would be considered in the few thousand IU range. And, although I've supplemented with high doses of D3 without adverse reactions in the last year and a half, it's good to keep in mind that vitamin D also functions as a steroid hormone.

Best way to get it is getting half hour or more of sun exposure on the most amount of skin per day, especially if your on the ketogenic diet. Also, there's never been a problem of getting vitamin D via sun exposure and any imbalances such as k2 (that can be a problem with high dose supplementation) that I'm aware of.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also, if you do decide to increase the dose of D3, make sure you also supplement with vitamin k2 (otherwise, it could lead to imbalances). This will prevent calcium deposition in the wrong places, i.e. soft tissue. By the way higher D3 supplementation would be considered in the few thousand IU range. And, although I've supplemented with high doses of D3 without adverse reactions in the last year and a half, it's good to keep in mind that vitamin D also functions as a steroid hormone.

Best way to get it is getting half hour or more of sun exposure on the most amount of skin per day, especially if your on the ketogenic diet. Also, there's never been a problem of getting vitamin D via sun exposure and any imbalances such as k2 (that can be a problem with high dose supplementation) that I'm aware of.

Considering this is very hard to achieve outside of summer in the UK, I've been having a look for some info on tanning beds and vitamin D this morning. I've always been weary of using tanning beds because they felt so unnatural, but I may give it a try this winter.

I found one paper which seems to show a strong corrolation between sunbed use and vitamin D levels.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1645.full.pdf

[Can't seem to copy/paste anything without the forum text editor just completely screwing it up]


Then Mercola comes in with more information regarding types of sunbeds and EMF exposure (But he sells tanning beds)
_http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/04/12/can-tanning-beds-decrease-cancer-than-cause.aspx

What Makes a Tanning Bed Safe?
I believe they're likely correct in their speculation that the type of tanning bed may be a major factor in whether or not it will have a beneficial or detrimental impact on your cancer risk. Safe tanning beds have less of the dangerous UVA than sunlight, while unsafe ones emit more UVA than sunlight, and it is the UVA rays, which penetrate your skin more deeply than UVB, that appear to be a much more important factor in causing photoaging, wrinkles and skin cancers.

Another important factor when selecting a tanning bed is the type of ballast it employs, to avoid excessive electromagnetic field (EMF) exposure. Most tanning units use magnetic ballasts to generate light. These magnetic ballasts are well known sources of EMF fields that can contribute to cancer.

If you hear a loud buzzing noise while in a tanning bed, it has a magnetic ballast system. I strongly recommend you avoid magnetic ballast beds, and restrict your use of tanning beds to those that use electronic ballasts.

High-quality indoor tanning devices are safe if you precisely follow the simple guideline of never getting burned. Your skin should only get the lightest shade of pink after using them. The FDA has very strict guidelines that seem overly restrictive and will likely impair most people from getting enough vitamin D.

The FDA also recommends waiting 24-48 hours between doses. The reason for this is that it takes at least 24 hours for the erythema to go away. This exposure schedule can be described as CONTROLLED SUNSHINE, making it a very safe way to receive the benefits of the sun while indoors. Ideally you should do this also when you are initially exposed to sunshine. But once you have a tan you can easily and safely increase exposure to once a day.

I found another paper on the effects of artificial UV light treatment on people unable to absorb vitamin D from the diet, with positive results (I've not been through this one yet). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2846322/

Background

Cystic fibrosis (CF) and short bowel syndrome (SBS) patients are unable to absorb vitamin D from the diet and thus are frequently found to be severely vitamin D deficient. We evaluated whether a commercial portable ultraviolet (UV) indoor tanning lamp that has a spectral output that mimics natural sunlight could raise circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] levels in subjects with CF and SBS.

Methods

In initial pilot studies, two SBS subjects came to the outpatient clinic twice weekly for 8 weeks for UV light sessions of 6 min each. In a follow-up study, five CF subjects exposed their lower backs in a seated position to the sunlamp at a distance of 14 cm for 5–10 min depending on the skin type five times a week for 8 weeks. Blood samples for 25(OH)D and parathyroid hormone (PTH) measurements were performed at baseline and at the end of the study.

Results

In our study, with two SBS subjects, the indoor lamp increased or maintained circulating 25(OH)D levels during the winter months. We increased the UV lamp frequency and found an improved response in the CF patients. Serum 25(OH)D levels in CF subjects at baseline were 21 ± 3 ng/ml, which increased to 27 ± 4 ng/ml at the end of 8 weeks (P = 0.05). PTH concentration remained largely unchanged in both population groups.

Conclusion

A UV lamp that emits ultraviolet radiation similar to sunlight and thus produces vitamin D3 in the skin is an excellent alternative for CF, and SBS patients who suffer from vitamin D deficiency due to fat malabsorption, especially during the winter months when natural sunlight is unable to produce vitamin D3 in the skin. This UV lamp is widely available for commercial home use and could potentially be prescribed to patients with CF or SBS.

 

[luke wilson]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Am I correct in guessing that vitamin K2 comes in supplements as well?

 

[Tomek]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yep, some supplements combine D3 and K2. Check for the dosage
_http://www.iherb.com/Michael-s-Naturopathic-Vitamin-D3-K2-Natural-Apricot-Flavor-5000-IU-90-Sublingual-Tablets/23733