Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Laura said:
<snip>
The main thing about cooking is the pre-digestion factor. It frees up energy that goes to the brain. I'd say that's a serious positive thing. If you want to begin to reverse the evolutionary process, go back to eating raw meat. Then, after a bit, go back to eating bugs, leaves, fruits, whatever monkeys eat; soon enough, your line will become monkeys.
Yes okay, I usually avoided red meat and other organs as raw as they were hard to digest but I told myself that this could be the damaged gut, not really "normal". Its true that, when cooked, I had much "availabilities" in intellectual tasks.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I did also some experiments in the last weeks. While traveling a bit I introduced sardines with native olive oil, which is easy food to eat and to transport. Also when in the hemochromatosis thread fish seems not to be the best food.

And some days ago I tested out creme fraiche, cause I was looking for another fat source and there is only pig fat that does not contain any grains or likely worth onions. To the creme fraiche I don't have any bad reactions and I just love it. So I did add up and ate two cups of it in a row. That where about 12 grs carbs and 120 gr of fat. And also there I could sleep well and didn't feel bad at all and also good the next day. I only got a bit nauseous this morning after eating pork belly for breakfast.

Beside I'm also taking EDTA right now, cause from time to time I still need a nap in the afternoon and to see if it goes better after it. Beside my energy levels did raise and I'm more able again doing resistance exercise which is a good sign imo.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well, if you are able to eat creme fraiche and feel good after it, you are one lucky person! What I wouldn't give for a cup of fresh ground coffee with a big dollop of cream in it! But it goes down like acid burns all the way through, so no dice for me!
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Laura said:
Well, if you are able to eat creme fraiche and feel good after it, you are one lucky person! What I wouldn't give for a cup of fresh ground coffee with a big dollop of cream in it! But it goes down like acid burns all the way through, so no dice for me!

Quite right!

I have been experimenting with double cream as well, the results are ambivalent. Sometimes I think it doesn't affect me at all, next time I try I trigger my early warning system (my thumb joint starts hurting). The jury is still out, but I might be able to eat it in some quantity if it is spaced out enough ...

Laura, don't remember if you are ok with butter, because butter in coffee (nuked in a blender) is a good alternative - might even work with ghee, but sofar I've never tried.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

nicklebleu said:
[...]

Laura, don't remember if you are ok with butter, because butter in coffee (nuked in a blender) is a good alternative - might even work with ghee, but sofar I've never tried.

The milky parts of butter make the taste imo and ghee would be just the fat, which is ok, but is lacking the specific taste.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

nicklebleu said:
The jury is still out, but I might be able to eat it in some quantity if it is spaced out enough ...

I wish I could do the same. Chances are I will have it every single day. :/
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Psyche said:
nicklebleu said:
The jury is still out, but I might be able to eat it in some quantity if it is spaced out enough ...

I wish I could do the same. Chances are I will have it every single day. :/

Yeah ... that's the problem, once you start it's hard to stop - which in itself is a bit of a red flag. So in general I am weary to go neR it avd just use it in special circumstances.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Interesting video at Natural News giving evidence against the ketogenic diet for cancer. Maybe "evidence" is a bit strong, since there isn't any given here, really. And the anti-keto stance is no real surprise coming from Natural News, who essentially espouse the vegetarian myth for the most part. Interesting points none the less. I'd be interested to see if Atkins left any data about his dietary interventions for cancer treatment. Considering the ad libitum allowance for protein, dairy products and artificial sweeteners on the old school Atkins diet, I wonder if we can really take his supposed failure as evidence of anything. We, of course, really need some solid human trials (*starts holding breath...)

_http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=635323BF2B9BB4E53B1D738A124ED12A
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

More intestinal health stuff... http://www.scienceworldreport.com/articles/9722/20130925/genetic-makeup-diet-affect-microbiome.htm

A recent study shows how genetic makeup and diet can interact with the Microbiome to impact certain health issues. Mayo Clinic researchers note that an individual's genomic makeup and diet can actually determine which microbes exist and how they act via a host intestine.
"Our data show that factors in the differences in a host's genetic makeup - in this case genes that affect carbohydrates in the gut - interact with the type of food eaten. That combination determines the composition and function of resident microbes," Purna Kashyap, M.B.B.S., a Mayo Clinic gastroenterologist and first author of the study said, via a press release.Background information from the study notes that he is also a collaborator in the Microbiome Program of the Mayo Clinic Center for Individualized Medicine.
The study shows that roughly 20 percent of humans lack the gene needed to encode proteins for processing specific carbohydrates, including a sugar in the intestinal mucus called fucose. This interaction demonstrates how many bacteria can adapt to the utilization of this component. Yet when certain diets have little or no complex plant sugar, bacteria are forced to change their function when a lack of hosts hold fucose.
Fucose works to provide the gastrointestinal track with a complex and competitive environment for the microbiota. In fact, according to the International journal Nature, the pathogen relies on an inter-kingdom of chemical sensing systems that regulate virulence gene expression and can be critical in the body.
The researchers altered this metabolic gene expression through one of the key microbes known as Bacteroides thetaiotaomicron. Changes in microbial membership and function have previously demonstrated through the study and other research that they could potentially foster a "digestive landscape" that can promote inflammatory conditions similar to Crohn's disease.
The study, which was modeled in germ-free knockout mice in order to mimic this genetic condition seen in 1 in 5 humans that can increase the risk of digestive illness, concludes with the following, via a press release: "The microbiome represents millions of microbes in the gut and elsewhere in the body. They perform specialized functions to help keep metabolism in balance. Whether in humans or other animals, the microbial combination is unique and must function well with the individual's genome and diet for a healthy existence."
More information regarding the study can be found via the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

nicklebleu said:
Psyche said:
nicklebleu said:
The jury is still out, but I might be able to eat it in some quantity if it is spaced out enough ...

I wish I could do the same. Chances are I will have it every single day. :/

Yeah ... that's the problem, once you start it's hard to stop - which in itself is a bit of a red flag. So in general I am weary to go neR it avd just use it in special circumstances.
I agree, it can be hard to stop. It is very 'more-ish'. If I have a whole tub of clotted cream in a day then I'm aware of it, yet only in the form of having eaten too much fat for the whole day. Daily, a half tub of clotted cream in a 500ml cup of freshly ground coffee in the early morning is fine, though. :)
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I like to mention that there is a German study going on with multiple sclerosis patients on a ketogenic diet compared to therapeutic fasting. Unfortunately up to this point there is no publication and it seems is still taking place or maybe in peer review, according to the Charite page: _http://www.charite-buch.de/crc/ms.html

For German users a small review about the diet can be watched and it starts at about 24:11:

_http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/visite/media/visite9001.html

In this small television show they did report about the positive effects off the diet and one interviewed ms patient did feel much better.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Prodigal Son said:
nicklebleu said:
Psyche said:
nicklebleu said:
The jury is still out, but I might be able to eat it in some quantity if it is spaced out enough ...

I wish I could do the same. Chances are I will have it every single day. :/

Yeah ... that's the problem, once you start it's hard to stop - which in itself is a bit of a red flag. So in general I am weary to go neR it avd just use it in special circumstances.
I agree, it can be hard to stop. It is very 'more-ish'. If I have a whole tub of clotted cream in a day then I'm aware of it, yet only in the form of having eaten too much fat for the whole day. Daily, a half tub of clotted cream in a 500ml cup of freshly ground coffee in the early morning is fine, though. :)
Right now I'm limiting my intake of coffee on the weekends... don't think my body will be very happy if I drink coffee every day. The limiting certain foods to weekends is a good way to limit intake, but it's probably only effective if the intent to do it is strong enough at the start (knowing how the foods affect one seems to help in strengthening the intent). Cheese and dairy (except for butter) gives me weird muscle spasms in my back area, so I put coconut milk in my coffee for some creamy richness -- delicious, and my dad likes it too. But I seem to be drinking lots of hot cocoa on the weekdays. Also am growing a bit too fond of midnight snacks. Could do a little bit of cleaning up of diet on those fronts. Will check what my BOHB levels are like tonight.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

There is some controversy on whether the ketogenic diet raises the possibility of kidney stones. Since it is problem that can potentially cause a LOT of pain and there are some people who have done the ketogenic diet for extended periods of time, I thought I would gather some of the info about it and what can be done in order to stay on the safe side. The problem could potentially arise in some people who are predisposed to develop kidney stones due to structural differences (congenital issues).

According to Lyle McDonald in "The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner":

"In epileptic children, there is a low incidence (5%) of small kidney stones. This may be related to the dehydrated state the children are deliberately kept in rather than the state of ketosis itself. [...]

Individuals who are predisposed to kidney stones (or have preexisting kidney problems) should consider seriously whether a ketogenic diet is appropriate for them.

Some data that suggests that 1 in 20 children will develop kidney stones on the ketogenic diet:

J Child Neurol. 2007 Apr;22(4):375-8.

Kidney stones and the ketogenic diet: risk factors and prevention.

Sampath A, Kossoff EH, Furth SL, Pyzik PL, Vining EP.
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621514

A cohort study was performed of children started on the ketogenic diet for intractable epilepsy from 2000 to 2005 (n = 195). Children who developed kidney stones were compared with those without in terms of demographics, urine laboratory markers, and intervention with urine alkalinization (potassium citrate). Thirteen children (6.7%) developed kidney stones. The use of oral potassium citrate significantly decreased the prevalence of stones. (3.2% vs 10.0%, P = .049) and increased the mean time on the ketogenic diet before a stone was first noted (260 vs 149 patient-months, P = .29). The prevalence of kidney stones did not correlate with younger age or use of carbonic anhydrate inhibitors (eg, topiramate or zonisamide) but trended toward higher correlation with the presence of hypercalciuria (92% vs 71%, P = .08). No child stopped the diet due to stones; in fact, the total diet duration was longer (median 26 vs 12 months, P < .001). Kidney stones continue to occur in approximately 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet, and no statistically significant risk factors were identified in this cohort. As oral potassium citrate was preventative, prospective studies using this medication empirically are warranted.

Drinking enough water and alkalinizing the urine with citrate seems to make the difference:

Epilepsia. 2002 Oct;43(10):1168-71.

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12366731

Kidney stones, carbonic anhydrase inhibitors, and the ketogenic diet.

Kossoff EH, Pyzik PL, Furth SL, Hladky HD, Freeman JM, Vining EP.

Because carbonic anhydrase inhibitors and the ketogenic diet are each known risk factors for kidney stones, simultaneous use of these therapies has been discouraged. The objective of this study was to establish the prevalence of nephrolithiasis in children in this combination-therapy population.

[...]CONCLUSIONS:

The combined use of carbonic anhydrase inhibitors and the ketogenic diet does not increase the risk of kidney stones. We recommend that all patients treated with combination therapy should be treated with increased hydration. Urine alkalinization should be considered for children with previous renal abnormalities, family histories of kidney stones, hematuria, or elevated urine calcium-to-creatinine ratios. If renal stones are found, we advocate discontinuation of the carbonic anhydrase inhibitor.

A summary of a study:

Oral Potassium Citrate May Help Prevent Kidney Stones in Children on the Ketogenic Diet

_http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/706503

July 27, 2009 — Oral potassium citrate supplementation may help prevent kidney stones in children who receive the ketogenic diet, according to the results of a study reported online July 13 in Pediatrics.

"Kidney stones occur in 6% of children who receive the KD," write Melanie A. McNally, BS, from the School of Medicine, Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, and colleagues. "Potassium citrate (Polycitra K [Cypress Pharmaceuticals]) is a daily oral supplement that alkalinizes the urine and solubilizes urine calcium, theoretically reducing the risk for kidney stones."

The full study quoted is available here. _http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/124/2/e300

The reasons why there might be an increased incidence in kidney stones are described in this case study:

Renal Stone Associated with the Ketogenic Diet in a 5-Year Old Girl with Intractable Epilepsy

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/

There have been several reports about renal calculi developing in children on the ketogenic diet since the first report more than 30 years ago.9-11 The prevalence of renal caculi in people on the ketogenic diet is 3-10%, compared with 1 in several thousand in the general population.12 Chronic acidosis, dehydration, low urine pH, and fat malabsorption all contribute to the formation of uric acid and calcium oxalate stones.9,10 In this paper, we describe the case of a 5-year-old girl who developed a renal stone after beginning a ketogenic diet to control refractory complex partial seizures.

One last study:

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10893623

J Urol. 2000 Aug;164(2):464-6.

Nephrolithiasis associated with the ketogenic diet.


The ketogenic diet has been used for treating seizure disorders for more than 70 years. Nephrolithiasis is a known complication of this diet with a reported stone rate as high as 10% but there is sparse literature detailing the nature and treatment of these stones. We report on 4 children with nephrolithiasis on this diet.

[...] CONCLUSIONS:

The ketogenic diet induces several metabolic abnormalities that increase the propensity for stone formation. Urologists should be aware of this potential complication. Fluid liberalization and bicitrate are recommended as prophylaxis.

In short, there is a chance that some individuals might develop kidney stones on the ketogenic diet, especially if there is a predisposition. There are a lot of discussions on paleo blogs and forums. It seems that the tips of drinking enough water, taking citrate supplements in the form of magnesium citrate or potassium citrate and making sure you are absorbing your fats will likely take care of any potential problem.

Some folk do have a predisposition to form kidney stones. It doesn't mean they can't benefit from the ketogenic diet. But in case of doubt, do keep well hydrated and take citrate supplements. :)
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Psyche said:
There is some controversy on whether the ketogenic diet raises the possibility of kidney stones. Since it is problem that can potentially cause a LOT of pain and there are some people who have done the ketogenic diet for extended periods of time, I thought I would gather some of the info about it and what can be done in order to stay on the safe side. The problem could potentially arise in some people who are predisposed to develop kidney stones due to structural differences (congenital issues).

According to Lyle McDonald in "The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner":

"In epileptic children, there is a low incidence (5%) of small kidney stones. This may be related to the dehydrated state the children are deliberately kept in rather than the state of ketosis itself. [...]

Individuals who are predisposed to kidney stones (or have preexisting kidney problems) should consider seriously whether a ketogenic diet is appropriate for them.

Some data that suggests that 1 in 20 children will develop kidney stones on the ketogenic diet:

J Child Neurol. 2007 Apr;22(4):375-8.

Kidney stones and the ketogenic diet: risk factors and prevention.

Sampath A, Kossoff EH, Furth SL, Pyzik PL, Vining EP.
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621514

A cohort study was performed of children started on the ketogenic diet for intractable epilepsy from 2000 to 2005 (n = 195). Children who developed kidney stones were compared with those without in terms of demographics, urine laboratory markers, and intervention with urine alkalinization (potassium citrate). Thirteen children (6.7%) developed kidney stones. The use of oral potassium citrate significantly decreased the prevalence of stones. (3.2% vs 10.0%, P = .049) and increased the mean time on the ketogenic diet before a stone was first noted (260 vs 149 patient-months, P = .29). The prevalence of kidney stones did not correlate with younger age or use of carbonic anhydrate inhibitors (eg, topiramate or zonisamide) but trended toward higher correlation with the presence of hypercalciuria (92% vs 71%, P = .08). No child stopped the diet due to stones; in fact, the total diet duration was longer (median 26 vs 12 months, P < .001). Kidney stones continue to occur in approximately 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet, and no statistically significant risk factors were identified in this cohort. As oral potassium citrate was preventative, prospective studies using this medication empirically are warranted.

Drinking enough water and alkalinizing the urine with citrate seems to make the difference:

Epilepsia. 2002 Oct;43(10):1168-71.

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12366731

Kidney stones, carbonic anhydrase inhibitors, and the ketogenic diet.

Kossoff EH, Pyzik PL, Furth SL, Hladky HD, Freeman JM, Vining EP.

Because carbonic anhydrase inhibitors and the ketogenic diet are each known risk factors for kidney stones, simultaneous use of these therapies has been discouraged. The objective of this study was to establish the prevalence of nephrolithiasis in children in this combination-therapy population.

[...]CONCLUSIONS:

The combined use of carbonic anhydrase inhibitors and the ketogenic diet does not increase the risk of kidney stones. We recommend that all patients treated with combination therapy should be treated with increased hydration. Urine alkalinization should be considered for children with previous renal abnormalities, family histories of kidney stones, hematuria, or elevated urine calcium-to-creatinine ratios. If renal stones are found, we advocate discontinuation of the carbonic anhydrase inhibitor.

A summary of a study:

Oral Potassium Citrate May Help Prevent Kidney Stones in Children on the Ketogenic Diet

_http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/706503

July 27, 2009 — Oral potassium citrate supplementation may help prevent kidney stones in children who receive the ketogenic diet, according to the results of a study reported online July 13 in Pediatrics.

"Kidney stones occur in 6% of children who receive the KD," write Melanie A. McNally, BS, from the School of Medicine, Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, and colleagues. "Potassium citrate (Polycitra K [Cypress Pharmaceuticals]) is a daily oral supplement that alkalinizes the urine and solubilizes urine calcium, theoretically reducing the risk for kidney stones."

The full study quoted is available here. _http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/124/2/e300

The reasons why there might be an increased incidence in kidney stones are described in this case study:

Renal Stone Associated with the Ketogenic Diet in a 5-Year Old Girl with Intractable Epilepsy

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/

There have been several reports about renal calculi developing in children on the ketogenic diet since the first report more than 30 years ago.9-11 The prevalence of renal caculi in people on the ketogenic diet is 3-10%, compared with 1 in several thousand in the general population.12 Chronic acidosis, dehydration, low urine pH, and fat malabsorption all contribute to the formation of uric acid and calcium oxalate stones.9,10 In this paper, we describe the case of a 5-year-old girl who developed a renal stone after beginning a ketogenic diet to control refractory complex partial seizures.

One last study:

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10893623

J Urol. 2000 Aug;164(2):464-6.

Nephrolithiasis associated with the ketogenic diet.


The ketogenic diet has been used for treating seizure disorders for more than 70 years. Nephrolithiasis is a known complication of this diet with a reported stone rate as high as 10% but there is sparse literature detailing the nature and treatment of these stones. We report on 4 children with nephrolithiasis on this diet.

[...] CONCLUSIONS:

The ketogenic diet induces several metabolic abnormalities that increase the propensity for stone formation. Urologists should be aware of this potential complication. Fluid liberalization and bicitrate are recommended as prophylaxis.

In short, there is a chance that some individuals might develop kidney stones on the ketogenic diet, especially if there is a predisposition. There are a lot of discussions on paleo blogs and forums. It seems that the tips of drinking enough water, taking citrate supplements in the form of magnesium citrate or potassium citrate and making sure you are absorbing your fats will likely take care of any potential problem.

Some folk do have a predisposition to form kidney stones. It doesn't mean they can't benefit from the ketogenic diet. But in case of doubt, do keep well hydrated and take citrate supplements. :)

Thank you for posting this Psyche.

For the past few days, I've been able to eat without supplementation in the form of ox bile & betaine HCl (digestive enzymes) & not feel bloated/exhausted afterwards. Bowel movements are also *ahem* smoother.

This may be an indication of being able to better digest fats/proteins. Instead of taking them alongside every meal, I've been able to feel energised/not bloated with one of each per 3 days, occasionally taking milk thistle. It's still early days & there are a few factors that could have played into this change - I'm possibly one of those predisposed to kidney stones formation.

For now, tracking changes as they arise. Magnesium is almost finished, going to try the citrate version of both & see how that fairs.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

nicklebleu said:
On another note, I have embarked on another sideline experiment to check out the behaviour of serum BOHB under a different diet. At the moment I am doing what you could call a "juice fast" - I drink three cups of juice from organic veggies (kale, celery, beetroot, carrots, garlic, ginger, tumeric, cabbage, apple, passionfruit etc.) as my sole food intake - to see how that affects my BOHB levels. I started yesterday, but already BOHB levels have shot up, despite what I am ingesting is mainly carbs, if not in huge quantities. I am well aware that I am probably in starvation ketosis, but I have decided to do that for one week and then see what happens.

So far I am feeling pretty good, not much hunger, not much brain fog, energy levels unchanged ... but I'll report back after cessation of that experiment!

I just wanted to post my experiences after aborting my juice fast ... I stopped last Friday evening, after less than a week. The following things were notable:

- I remained in light ketosis throughout (BOHB levels around 1 mmol/l)
- No hunger
- Energy levels waaaay down
- My "early warning radar" got triggered - painful joints in fingers, always the first symptom of increased inflammation of the body
- Caught a cold - which I haven't had since i started out on the ketogenic diet

Glad I am back to the "tried and tested" again - the interesting bit for me was the wholly negative impact that these 4 - 5 days of juicing had on my body - quite amazing.

Anyway, it was an interesting experience, not to be repeated by me anytime soon ...
 

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