Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[emilien512]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I thought this kind of info was false, because there has been many sort of "models" in human and so this would have nothing to do with meat.
And I always felt a bit beater with raw than cooked, its easier to digest sure, but less nutritive in my opinion.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I thought this kind of info was false, because there has been many sort of "models" in human and so this would have nothing to do with meat.

Could you please clarify what you're saying here?

And I always felt a bit beater with raw than cooked, its easier to digest sure, but less nutritive in my opinion.

Well nutrients are no good if the food doesn't get digested properly, and they aren't in a form where they are easily absorbed. Have you read any of the recommended diet books?

 

[Resistense]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Question: did anyone experienced eating only meat RAW in their diet? How was it like, I have made a few periods of a few days and I just had strong cravings/horrible emotions at first, but then I felt fine after 3-4 days, also I consider that blood should be removed/avoided.

For about the past year my main protein source has been a mix of chopped organ meats (beef heart/kidney/liver in about 3:2:1 proportion). The blood cannot really be removed or avoided as such... I've tried this both cooked and raw, and have been eating it raw mostly every day since the start of this year. I find it's even more palatable raw (although calling kidney palatable is a stretch), but part of it may just be the convenience of not having to cook. I don't have many issues with digestion, although from time to time on the keto diet I've had problems digesting fat. So if protein is the most difficult thing to digest, perhaps by cooking it and predigesting it some of the digestive power can be freed up for other parts of the meal? All that said I generally find myself in pretty good health, some structural issues aside, while eating this diet of mostly raw meat (and fat). Also I usually add some Apple cider vinegar, and a good deal of salt, into the broth the meat is swimming in, and mix it up. As another digestive aid I usually break two caps of betaine HCl (along with "HCl activator") from premier labs into a small amount of water and drink. I think stomach acid is a big key in protein digestion.

I've read a bit on the debate over raw vs. cooked meat, and I think both sides of the argument have some merit. I would imagine that organ meats (i.e. smooth or cardiac muscles) would be digested more easily than muscle meats (striated skeletal muscles), by virtue of their composition, but that's just speculation. I can't speak for emilien here, but I think what he means when he speaks of "models" for human digestion, is in regard to, for example, the one study spoken of in the link Carlisle provided where they're using mice (vegetarians or omnivores of opportunity) to look at digestion of meat and then extrapolating that data to humans. At best, such a study should provide reason to study the same in humans, not infer that conclusions from the mouse data apply to us. I think a large part of one's ability to properly digest protein is dependent on sufficient stomach acid and enzyme production, which most likely would be absent in a study of people eating the Standard diet or with compromised gut function. In that case, it would likely be of benefit to predigest the meat to some extent by cooking. Part of my thinking to favor raw meat hinges on the idea that certain nutrients (e.g. B vitamins, vitamin C) may be damaged by heat, but I couldn't find a lot of information on this after a quick search (although some sources say both Thiamine (B1) and Cobalamin (B12) are heat labile, I'm not sure the temperatures they're talking about would be reached with a mild cooking).

When I eat ground beef or steak or I normally cook it lightly in my cast iron skillet. Ground beef actually tastes "deficient" to me now as it doesn't have the same bite or mineral-rich mouth feel as the organ meat. A nice, rare, fatty steak is still enjoyable and a nice change every once in a while.

...

Yeah, we've learned by experience/experiment.

But, we have also learned that you can have a few things like breads made with tapioca/manioc flour with a bit of ground cashew flour for "nuttiness" (or pecan flour). If you need some carb thing with your meal, 3/4 of a cup of instant mashed potatoes with lots of butter should do the trick. I say instant because, even though it is a nightshade, when it is processed to become "instant", it seems to remove the evil stuff.

...

Obviously, the suggestions I am making here are for those who are 1) robust and didn't have any serious problems before dietary changes; 2) those who did have problems but have been gluten and dairy free - and symptom free - for at least two years.

I think part of the trick to avoiding the "evil" of white potatoes would be to avoid eating the skin. I've read in a few different places that the nightshade alkaloids (solanine and chaconine) are found mostly in or just under the skin. Also the fiber, which can be irritating, comes from the skins. The "flesh" of the potato is mostly water, starch, and minerals (notably a good amount of potassium). I'd imagine that the draw of instant potatoes would be that it's just the flesh, or powdered potato starch that you reconstitute with water. Perhaps you could peel potatoes that you buy and achieve the same? Here in the states, potatoes are one of the "dirty dozen" produce foods contaminated with pesticides, so it may be better to buy organic potatoes and just peel them before or after cooking. FWIW

 

[cubbex]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well thank you for the response, I'm not completely into the paleo diet I'm just curious on why to go on the ketogenic diet, what I do is I avoid carbs and gluten products.

If you are avoiding carbs, then you are only eating meat/fat, and even they contain some small amount of carbs. So are you not eating any vegetables or fruits?

I rarely eat fruits and vegetables. The only type of vegetables I get to eat are boiled, and fruits sometimes, just sometimes an apple or banana.

 

[emilien512]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

... but I think what he means when he speaks of "models" for human digestion ...

Thats what I meant :

April 15, 2000

...

Q: (L) I didn't think so. Just the cycle of things. A lot of people are writing to me about dreams lately. They seem to be having a lot of dreams about beings in the sky, entering our reality. All kinds of strange things.

A: Beings come and go at will always, it is the awareness that is expanding.

Q: (L) Another trend of the dreams is being pursued, attacked, split up from their families, being put in concentration camps - just all kinds of things.

A: All are possible futures, just wait and see. There is an alien race that has plans to replace your physical vehicles with a new "model."

Q: (L) What are they going to do with the old models?

A: "Retire them."

Q: (T) Which race is this?

A: Orion STS.

Q: (L) Is this essentially what happened with Neanderthal?

A: Yup!

Q: (L) Well, for a period of time it seems that they continued to exist on the planet alongside the new model, cro-magnon or whatever.

A: Some did.

Q: (L) For how long did Neanderthal exist side by side with the "new model?"

A: 233 years.

Q: (L) I thought that Neanderthal was here for a long, long, long time; and if modern man arrived on the planet, as you say, 70 to 80 thousand years ago, wasn't Neanderthal already here then?

A: Time references have been miscalculated.

Q: (L) Who miscalculated the time references?

A: Science.

Q: (L) What is the oldest Neanderthal that's been found? Anybody know? No, well then when did Neanderthal appear on the planet?

A: 5.3 million years ago.

Q: (L) You are saying that when science says that modern man appeared 35 to 40 thousand years ago, and Neanderthal disappeared at the same time, the real time frame was 70 to 80 thousand years ago? In other words, a factor of 2 error.

A: Close.

Q: (L) And, of course, we can't depend on any of the dating methods because of metamorphosis.

A: And genetic manipulation.

Q: (L) So, in effect, we ARE the new Neanderthals on the eve of extinction. You have said that those who transition into 4th density in the body will go through some kind of rejuvenation process or body regeneration or something. Does that mean that these present "Neanderthal" type bodies that we presently occupy will morph into something more in line with the new model? Is it genetically encoded into some of them to do so?

A: Something like that.

Q: (L) So, that's why they have been following certain bloodlines for generation after generation; they are tinkering with the DNA and arming genetic time-bombs that are waiting to go off. (A) What is interesting is how do those who are trying to get these people, to abduct them, how do they spot them? How do they get the information? By following the bloodline, or by some kind of monitor you can detect from a long distance - and they can note that "here is somebody of interest" or "here is somebody dangerous" or "let's abduct this one" or whatever. How do they select? Do they search the genealogies or is it some kind of remote sensing?

A: Now this is interesting Arkadiusz, as it involves the atomic "signature" of the cellular structure of the individual. In concert with this is the etheric body reading and the frequency resonance vibration. All these are interconnected, and can be read from a distance using remote viewing technology/methodology.

...

Meaning that humans beings have been so differents at so many points in time that this digestion thing seem irrelevent to me. We are mainly carnivorous period, cooking is an industrialisation process.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think part of the trick to avoiding the "evil" of white potatoes would be to avoid eating the skin. I've read in a few different places that the nightshade alkaloids (solanine and chaconine) are found mostly in or just under the skin.

One of those chemicals binds extremely tightly to cholesterol, and isn't destroyed by heat. I suspect this is why one recipe for seasoning a cast-iron pan is to use potato skins, though I can't remember the exact procedure. I suspect that the heat-proof cholesterol binder is what gives the pan a slick, indestructible surface. We've tried all sorts of ways of seasoning the pan with just oil and it has NEVER worked. So one of these days I may try the potato peel treatment.

Inside the body however, those chemicals can't be any good. I'm not sure if an exception should be made for cast iron pans.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

... but I think what he means when he speaks of "models" for human digestion ...

Thats what I meant :
<snip>
Meaning that humans beings have been so differents at so many points in time that this digestion thing seem irrelevent to me. We are mainly carnivorous period, cooking is an industrialisation process.

I don't think it's accurate to say "cooking is an idustrialisation process." There's quite a lot of evidence that prehistoric humans cooked for a long period of time (mostly cooking meat on spits / open fires, but not only). FWIW.

Also, this same data/evidence shows that cooking does have advantages (in addition to some nutrients - mainly some vitamins - being destroyed by high heat i.e. disadvantages). Also keep in mind the problem of microbes and parasites in raw meat. Overall, I think the advantages and safety of cooked meat overrides any advantages of raw meat, but that's just me. I'm not claiming to know conclusively one way or the other.

 

[Keit]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also, this same data/evidence shows that cooking does have advantages (in addition to some nutrients - mainly some vitamins - being destroyed by high heat i.e. disadvantages). Also keep in mind the problem of microbes and parasites in raw meat. Overall, I think the advantages and safety of cooked meat overrides any advantages of raw meat, but that's just me. I'm not claiming to know conclusively one way or the other.

Yep, indeed cooking appears to have more advantages than disadvantages:

Sorry, vegans: Eating meat and cooking food is how humans got their big brains

Cooking makes more foods edible year-round and releases more nutrients and calories from both vegetables and meat, Herculano-Houzel said.

Cooking food could be what made people smart

Primates that only eat uncooked food need more to get the same amounts of energy - cooking the food helps make the calories more accessible to our digestive systems. This means humans eat less and invest less time in eating and hunting, which not only helped us develop culture but let our brains think harder, the researchers suggest.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

We are mainly carnivorous period, cooking is an industrialisation process.

Well, one thing doesn't preclude the other. You can be a carnivore and cook your meat if, as the research seems to prove, it is beneficial. I imagine our ancestors cooking their meals and making yummy foods with natural ingredients. I can't find the reference now, but I remember someone mentioning a study where it had been discovered that prehistoric men also had "recipes", some kind of cake/flour-based biscuit made from roots, etc. They probably had some "gourmet meals" too. Just because they had to hunt for their food, it doesn't mean that they didn't know how to prepare it and make it more digestible, right?

 

[emilien512]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

But then why would the need to prepare arise?
Carnivorous animals doesnt seem to have any troubles... or maybe.... the main raison for cooking would probably to "clean" the food because of parasites or even dirt etc.... so yeah it would be logical.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

But then why would the need to prepare arise?
Carnivorous animals doesnt seem to have any troubles... or maybe.... the main raison for cooking would probably to "clean" the food because of parasites or even dirt etc.... so yeah it would be logical.

Extensive "cleaning" often wouldn't be necessary for those living in a natural setting. On the contrary, killing off beneficial microbes and parasites (yes, "beneficial parasites" is a contradiction in terms but nature doesn't care) seems to be the source of some of our health problems today. It isn't the food's fault when our immune systems fail to do their jobs -- we are damaged, very possibly in part due to lack of exposure to certain parasites during development, on which we are dependent for immune system "training". In particular, exposure to the right parasites early on seems to help prevent autoimmune problems. I am sure there is much more that has not yet been discovered.

Adapting to cooked food has been theorized to enable a more agile organism with greater range than would otherwise be possible -- pre-digesting through cooking enables a more compact digestive system.

The complete picture is likely to prove very complex. We have needs for microbial "contamination," and cooking kills microbes. That alone would seem to make it more likely that ancient humans typically consumed raw foods as well. We host large colonies of microbes on the skin, in the mouth, and in the gut. Skin exposure would be pretty simple for hunter-gatherers, but the other colonies would seem to need something other than freshly cooked food in order to exchange information with the environment.

The more a species depends on raw plant foods, the more chewing is required (in terms of hours consumed out of the day), and the bulkier the digestive tract has to be. Pre-digesting by cooking applies to both animal and plant foods. This doesn't necessarily mean that "carnivore" is optimal, however. If it is, we somehow missed the boat because we are indeed omnivores. If some of our ancestors were carnivores, who knows. But if you ever find yourself in a situation with nothing to eat but plants, you will find that being omnivore is a good thing. And an omnivore that cooks, at that.

 

[Turgon]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've recently been zero carbs for the last three weeks which includes only eating meat (Pork, eggs & Beef), fat (ghee, butter, lard, beef fat) salt and bone broth. But before that I did have a tendency to binge on dark chocolate and cashews as well as drank alcohol a few times, gin and wine. One of the drives for going zero carb again was the fact that I sort of fell off the wagon and dipped in and out of ketosis several times because I ate or drank too many carbs or proteins in a single sitting. The last date for this was August 24th where I indulged in too much wine at a Birthday Party.

Usually, the first week of zero carb is fine, but I have noticed that after a few weeks of that I'm not doing so well. My energy levels are fluctuating daily, with major dips in the early afternoon as well as the early evening. These are usually accompanied by dissociation and depression which picks up at different times. I sometimes get diarrhea, although this mainly seems to happen when I have butter and eggs which is preceded by gurgling.

This Post covered some of the complications that arose and subsequent replies covers what happened the last time I went zero carb.

Today I finally had some carbs, giving that wolf a piece of meat in the form of home made dark chocolate and feel satiated by it, but felt a craving for something sweet beforehand. My system is very sensitive but I have noticed, and this is the 2nd time going zero carb for an extended period of time that I don't feel all there in the second week of zero carb. My weight is fine this time around, I am steady and eat roughly 3-4oz of protein per meal. All of my sources of food are either organic or pasture-raised so I am wondering what the issue is. Inflammation, gut and bacteria changes, maybe even emotional stuff coming to the surface that is being brought on by zero carbs.

Is it ideal to go and stay zero carb for long periods of time or am I doing harm to myself because of it. I am curious what are peoples experiences with zero carbs for long periods of time. I still have more to read before I finally catch up with this thread but I was getting the impression that carbs in any form are unnecessary although I have been getting feedback that some folks aren't doing well when carbs are cut out completely. I am thinking I will buy some veggies again for the first time in a while and see what effect that has, if any.

Any feedback or advice welcome.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Usually, the first week of zero carb is fine, but I have noticed that after a few weeks of that I'm not doing so well. My energy levels are fluctuating daily, with major dips in the early afternoon as well as the early evening. These are usually accompanied by dissociation and depression which picks up at different times. I sometimes get diarrhea, although this mainly seems to happen when I have butter and eggs which is preceded by gurgling.

Mess with your gut microbes that way and they might just mess with you. And there are many ways they can do it. It depends on you and your particular mix of microbes, among other things. I don't know about gut microbes in general, but bacteria in the lower GI tract can live on a number of things including mucous. They aren't exclusively dependent on carbs. But the supply of alternative foods in your particular gut could be limited.

...Today I finally had some carbs, giving that wolf a piece of meat in the form of home made dark chocolate and feel satiated by it, but felt a craving for something sweet beforehand...

You could also try adding some veggie FODMAPs back into your diet, sparingly, such as mushrooms and onions. If you're lucky, they will feed the symbiotes without feeding too many nasty critters. Giving them sugar (something tells me that chocolate wasn't unsweetened) might not be a good idea, because it does feed the nasty ones at a time when food is scarce (it was your idea to starve them) and it just might give the wrong ones the upper edge.

Or you could just stick it out (no more chocolate) and see what happens. There are no simple rules to follow because so much depends on your particular "configuration." I was able to reduce the pathogenic populations by going on a low FODMAP diet for an extended period of time, and now I seem to do reasonably well on just a few FODMAP veggies -- the rules changed and I can eat FODMAPs now. FODMAP sensitivity tends to associate with SIBO or other upper GI pathogen issues, and can go away when balance is restored.

Of course it also depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I don't know what you mean by falling off the wagon and going in and out of ketosis. I see people writing about that, but I don't usually see any data to go with it. What were your BOHB readings before and after falling off the wagon? You might think there is one thing going on when it is really something else, and going zero carb might help or might make it worse. My guess is that you have some issues with pathogens, but that's about all I can guess.

...Is it ideal to go and stay zero carb for long periods of time or am I doing harm to myself because of it...

Good question. Let me know if you come across a definitive answer. Most knowledgable people I follow seem to think it's a bad idea to even go VLC, let alone "zero" carb, unless you just have to for some reason. It's more about "what might happen" given how little is known, and how much individual variability exists, rather than about specific concerns. But there could well be risks, and they might vary quite a bit from one individual to another. There's one way to find out...

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've recently been zero carbs for the last three weeks which includes only eating meat (Pork, eggs & Beef), fat (ghee, butter, lard, beef fat) salt and bone broth.

I would say ditch the butter for now. That can be inflammatory in a very sneaky way.

But before that I did have a tendency to binge on dark chocolate and cashews as well as drank alcohol a few times, gin and wine. One of the drives for going zero carb again was the fact that I sort of fell off the wagon and dipped in and out of ketosis several times because I ate or drank too many carbs or proteins in a single sitting. The last date for this was August 24th where I indulged in too much wine at a Birthday Party.

Hm, have you come up with a strategy plan if say another (birthday) party would come up?

Usually, the first week of zero carb is fine, but I have noticed that after a few weeks of that I'm not doing so well. My energy levels are fluctuating daily, with major dips in the early afternoon as well as the early evening. These are usually accompanied by dissociation and depression which picks up at different times. I sometimes get diarrhea, although this mainly seems to happen when I have butter and eggs which is preceded by gurgling.

Yea, try to ditch the eggs too, maybe have them once a week or so, with some bacon (I've noticed that bacon helps with lessening the inflammation factor that eggs can have on me, if that makes sense). I, myself, am a bit stuck. In one way, the ketogenic diet can make me tired at times, but adding carbs is just something my body doesn't like at all, so I can't really go Paleo. I can have some cooked onions and garlic, but other than that, nothing else really. Green beans are okay too, but they're tasteless to me! But, guess what the missing factor was for me (or seems to be)? It was resistance training. That keeps my energy levels pretty normal/high and it takes away depression as well (and I was pretty depressed!). So that is something I think you should definitely check out. I remember from the papers that Chu and Laura posted that resistance training is an important key to get energy levels going. Another thing is stress, so practicing EE is VERY important too (and it lessens inflammation too).

Today I finally had some carbs, giving that wolf a piece of meat in the form of home made dark chocolate and feel satiated by it, but felt a craving for something sweet beforehand.

Maybe you could have some tea with some xylitol to tackle that sweet craving, and leave out the chocolate for a while? Just a suggestion.

I would say try out the resistance training, think of heavy weight exercises, and see how you feel then. Hope things work out for you Turgon.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

... but I think what he means when he speaks of "models" for human digestion ...

Thats what I meant :
<snip>
Meaning that humans beings have been so differents at so many points in time that this digestion thing seem irrelevent to me. We are mainly carnivorous period, cooking is an industrialisation process.

I don't think it's accurate to say "cooking is an idustrialisation process." There's quite a lot of evidence that prehistoric humans cooked for a long period of time (mostly cooking meat on spits / open fires, but not only). FWIW.

Also, this same data/evidence shows that cooking does have advantages (in addition to some nutrients - mainly some vitamins - being destroyed by high heat i.e. disadvantages). Also keep in mind the problem of microbes and parasites in raw meat. Overall, I think the advantages and safety of cooked meat overrides any advantages of raw meat, but that's just me. I'm not claiming to know conclusively one way or the other.

The main thing about cooking is the pre-digestion factor. It frees up energy that goes to the brain. I'd say that's a serious positive thing. If you want to begin to reverse the evolutionary process, go back to eating raw meat. Then, after a bit, go back to eating bugs, leaves, fruits, whatever monkeys eat; soon enough, your line will become monkeys.