Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[T.C.]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also note that doing intermittent fasting can be done without entire days of fasting/abstaining from eating. If you can, and you prefer, you can not eat for 14 to 18 hours every day. For example eat only around 11AM to 6PM. Just another option.

Yes, thanks for that. I've been having belly pork slices and broth for breakfast on my fast days. I've gone back to having some carbs too, while I continue to read the thread.

 

[naorma]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Reasons why I started IF:

First: One of my friends started doing it some months ago and was doing really well. Since we often met at this time I learned how to get along without eating a whole day.
Second: I simply got lazy. It was too much work to prepare food every day and thinking of what I should eat ... ;) Since I am a lot on the move it is even a little bit more complicated.
Third: It would be a good idea to reduce my weight a little.

So I decided to follow her way and ate only every second day (I am on the ketogenic diet, my friend not).
This made life easier. When fasting you dont have to think what you should eat and this saves also thinking-time.

During the non-eating day I had coffee with butter and whipped cream in the morning and black tea and water during the day. Especially black tea (whit whipped cream) helped me to get through the day. Not the best solution, I know. But it helped me to get used to that starving feeling during the non-eating days.

Problem in the beginning was that I was so hungry the second day I ate too much. So after a while I decided to eat a few blueberries during the non-eating days and after some weeks switched to eating once a day and not too much.
I eat at noon and that was it until next day noon. And sometimes - if the right food is not available - it is no problem to stay hungry. This is the most important thing I have learned, I guess.

Next step is to replace coffee and tea with hot water, which I already started and hopefully will be able to get rid of them.

kind of like this starving feeling in the evening . . . . . ;D

 

[lilyalic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Naorma, it may be beneficial to swap that coffee and tea for broth perhaps? A friend of mine did a broth fast for 2 days and said he felt great afterwards, I've used broth a few times to get me through fasting. Broth can hold a hella'lot of salt also, so you're getting your electrolytes! :)

When you're feeling hungry, a big glass of water tends to help. :)

Good luck with your experimenting!

 

[Keyhole]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Reasons why I started IF:

First: One of my friends started doing it some months ago and was doing really well. Since we often met at this time I learned how to get along without eating a whole day.
Second: I simply got lazy. It was too much work to prepare food every day and thinking of what I should eat ... ;) Since I am a lot on the move it is even a little bit more complicated.
Third: It would be a good idea to reduce my weight a little.

So I decided to follow her way and ate only every second day (I am on the ketogenic diet, my friend not).
This made life easier. When fasting you dont have to think what you should eat and this saves also thinking-time.

During the non-eating day I had coffee with butter and whipped cream in the morning and black tea and water during the day. Especially black tea (whit whipped cream) helped me to get through the day. Not the best solution, I know. But it helped me to get used to that starving feeling during the non-eating days.

Problem in the beginning was that I was so hungry the second day I ate too much. So after a while I decided to eat a few blueberries during the non-eating days and after some weeks switched to eating once a day and not too much.
I eat at noon and that was it until next day noon. And sometimes - if the right food is not available - it is no problem to stay hungry. This is the most important thing I have learned, I guess.

Next step is to replace coffee and tea with hot water, which I already started and hopefully will be able to get rid of them.

kind of like this starving feeling in the evening . . . . . ;D

Hey naorma, I usually find that drinking lots of water on the days that i am fasting helps with the empty feelings of hunger. I think a lot of the time our "hunger pangs" are actually the body's way of telling us that we are dehydrated. Maybe you could try this next tine your feeling hungry (unless, as you said, you like the sensation ;))

 

[no-mans-land]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Recently I came across a detailed analysis about the content of bone broth. It's from a guy who wanted to figure out, what's really inside his bone broth. So he made some protocols with different cooking time and content, took samples and brought it to different labs to let them test whats inside. You can find the details here:

_http://www.alive.com/health/bone-broth-analysis-reader-research

One of our readers sent in some incredible research on bone broth and its mineral content. Find out the fascinating results here.

Reader Lawrence Dubois, manager of Salt Spring Natureworks, contacted us with some very interesting personal research on bone broth.

Bone broth is widely believed to be a mineral rich food, yet published research to back up the belief is hard to find. Because of this, Lawrence conducted his own series of experiments where he made different batches of bone broth and had the samples analyzed.

It’s incredibly interesting stuff and we’ve included his complete and unabridged findings here. If you’d like to discuss this research further, please leave a comment below or contact Lawrence directly at bonebrothinfo@gmail.com.
Lawrence Dubois

Bone Broth Analyzed

Investigation and Discussion

The Premise:

Bone broth is one of the most mineral rich foods you can make right? OK, I’ll buy that. I’ve read it in many threads online and in many written publications discussing nutrition based on traditional, ancestral, whole-food, paleo, primal and low-carb concepts. Common sense dictates that it should be true, as after all, the process of making bone broth essentially consists of dissolving bones in water (at least partially). Well, if that’s truly the case then where is the evidence?

I looked everywhere, but couldn’t find a single stich of information that wasn’t simply inference or conjecture (i.e. “Bone broth is rich in minerals, especially calcium and phosphorus”). Where are the facts, the hard numbers? Is it possible that the idea of bone broth being rich in minerals is so credible that nobody’s ever bothered to prove it? Has no one been curious to see just how many minerals there are in bone broth? I know I have.

I really wanted to scratch this itch, but even Google wasn’t helping me. Admittedly I am a bit of a data freak; I like knowing the details. That isn’t to say that I’m a “doubting Thomas”; more like “curious George”. I was already a believer in bone broth. I consumed it regularly and promoted it to others. I already assumed that there must be a cornucopia of unique health promoting compounds in bone broth, from the obvious minerals and gelatin to possibly more mysterious and elusive compounds like trace minerals, nucleotides, sulfates, long-chain fatty acids, fat soluble vitamins, co-factors, growth factors, glycosaminoglycans and a range of other potential molecules coming from such precious stores as marrow, connective tissue, bone and even spinal cord (if using back- bone segments).

While I didn’t need convincing, I still wanted numbers and values. If not to prove the concept, then at least to compare bone broth to other foods and otherwise satisfy my curiosity. I was left with no other choice than to do my own tests. And so it began.

What really surprised me was not the fact that bone broth seems to be rather low in minerals (compared to other food), but the very high protein content. After 8 hours of cooking, he got almost 50g of protein per liter and after 24 hours cooking, even almost 120g protein per liter. That's a whole lot for a ketogenic diet I think.

Unfortunately, the site seems to have some kind of bug because the last time I checked it, there were nice and tidy charts in it where the numbers easily could be compared. Well, the data is still there, but a bit scattered and hard to read.

 

[Meechel17]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I often wondered about the mineral content of bone broth myself. It's crazy to look at those numbers though. Makes you wonder. Thanks, no-man's-land for the info/link.

 

[Keyhole]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I often wondered about the mineral content of bone broth myself. It's crazy to look at those numbers though. Makes you wonder. Thanks, no-man's-land for the info/link.

Me too. I was always under the impression that broth only contained minimal amounts of protein and was therefore very good for a fasted state. Very interesting indeed, i would be surprised if that drinking this protein-rich broth didn't knock people out of ketosis without them even knowing it and blaming some other aspect of their diet perhaps. Thanks no-man's-land

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I read in a very old book that in famine, people would sustain themselves with bone broth. So, it makes sense.

The website linked to in that article has an interesting bone broth recipe:

http://www.saltspringnatureworks.ca/Pages/BrucesKitchenRecipe2.aspx

Juniper berries! That reminds me of how cheap Gin brewers used to add turpentine to simulate the flavor of juniper berries.

 

[fabric]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Recently I came across a detailed analysis about the content of bone broth. It's from a guy who wanted to figure out, what's really inside his bone broth. So he made some protocols with different cooking time and content, took samples and brought it to different labs to let them test whats inside. You can find the details here:
[...]

That is pretty interesting. I wonder if the results would have been any different if he slow simmered it instead of using a pressure cooker. Perhaps some of the minerals escaped in the steam when it reached pressure?

 

[Sinapi]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Recently I came across a detailed analysis about the content of bone broth. It's from a guy who wanted to figure out, what's really inside his bone broth. So he made some protocols with different cooking time and content, took samples and brought it to different labs to let them test whats inside. You can find the details here:
[...]

That is pretty interesting. I wonder if the results would have been any different if he slow simmered it instead of using a pressure cooker. Perhaps some of the minerals escaped in the steam when it reached pressure?

AFAIK, minerals are too heavy to be removed by steam. Otherwise, distilled water would be full of them, but it's mineral-free.

I agree that it's very interesting. However, it would've been helpful if he had included how exactly the lab tested the minerals for each sample. From what I could tell, it sounds like the lab only measured ions in solution, and not any minerals that may have been bound to proteins or other substances. So, perhaps you'll get more minerals from the broth once it reaches your stomach acid, where the broth can be broken down.

It also would've been interesting to know the specific amino acid content of each sample to know how much of that protein is considered complete. Regardless, the high protein content would likely knock people out of ketosis, as, if I recall correctly, mTOR can be activated by significant concentrations of any amino acid.

 

[fabric]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

AFAIK, minerals are too heavy to be removed by steam. Otherwise, distilled water would be full of them, but it's mineral-free.

I agree that it's very interesting. However, it would've been helpful if he had included how exactly the lab tested the minerals for each sample. From what I could tell, it sounds like the lab only measured ions in solution, and not any minerals that may have been bound to proteins or other substances. So, perhaps you'll get more minerals from the broth once it reaches your stomach acid, where the broth can be broken down.

Good point. So 2 questions are method of measurement and if temp has any effect on it.

 

[no-mans-land]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

AFAIK, minerals are too heavy to be removed by steam. Otherwise, distilled water would be full of them, but it's mineral-free.

I agree that it's very interesting. However, it would've been helpful if he had included how exactly the lab tested the minerals for each sample. From what I could tell, it sounds like the lab only measured ions in solution, and not any minerals that may have been bound to proteins or other substances. So, perhaps you'll get more minerals from the broth once it reaches your stomach acid, where the broth can be broken down.

Good point. So 2 questions are method of measurement and if temp has any effect on it.

I did some experiments by changing the fat/protein ratio to see what effect it has on the ketosis. The state of ketosis was measured with keto sticks. Though, the sticks are not very precise, it was sufficient enough to indicate if I am in or out of ketosis. The interesting thing was, I did that before I knew about the protein content of bone broth while using considerable amounts of bone broth every day, most of the time mixed with liver sausage (to add more fat and protein). The bone broth was cooked more than 12 hours in a pressure cooker with lots of bones in it and also lots of marrow. So I guess the real protein content from the bone broth alone must have been more than 60 or 70g per liter. I consumed 500ml a day. That means I unknowingly exceeded the recommended protein intake by at least 30 or 40g every day (sometimes a nice piece of meat went on top of that, so it may differ by 10 or 20g of protein intake added by the meat).

In that time, the keto sticks indicated a very deep ketosis (the sticks almost went black). The overall fat intake was somewhat around 200g per day.

I still monitoring the state of ketosis, but without to use bone broth. I tried a lot of different combinations like low fat (100g a day), high protein (80g a day) and low carb (0g a day) or changing the content separately to see how it feels and what the state of ketosis will say about it.

The interesting thing here is, the state of ketosis almost didn't change. The stick always is a dark brown, except at one day it was a yellow/orange color that indicated that I was almost out of ketosis. That was after a period of two days I guess where the fat intake was less then 80g a day.

Well, my conclusion is that ketosis is a very stable metabolic function and (short term) changes in the protein/carb intake mostly affects the physical well being, but hardly the ketosis itself as long as I get enough fat (now it is between 150 and 200g a day).

I still wondering why the bone broth experiment with the very high protein content pushed me deeper in ketosis insted to kick me out of it. Could there be stuff in it that the lab didn't measured, like zlyia proposed with the amino acid or maybe the chemical structure of the protein is somewhat different or the chemical properties of bone broth in general has an effect that is still unknown and has nothing to do with the actual amount of proteins and minerals?

 

[lilyalic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I was looking round on Chris Kresser's website for treating Candida (I know he's a lot more paleo and against extreme low-carb diets) - but he did seem to be pretty sure of certain candida being able to feed on ketones. At first I disregarded it, but so many people here on the forum where on the Paleo diet for years before starting on Keto - so maybe you treated your candida effectively then.

http://chriskresser.com/top-4-mistakes-people-make-when-treating-candida-overgrowth/

The trouble with GAPS and SCD, depending on how they’re done, is that they can be extremely low-carb diets. If they’re extremely low-carb, they can become ketogenic, which means you start producing ketones. Paul Jaminet was one of the first people to start talking about this a few years ago. But there are several studies that suggest that Candida and other yeast can actually thrive on ketones. So this is one of my biggest problems with a very low-carbohydrate diet—GAPS, SCD or even sort of typical Candida diet—that removes every possible source of glucose or sugar in the diet. That can lead to ketone production. Then there are studies, for example, that show that neutrophils, which are white blood cells, are less able to kill Candida when ketones are present. There are studies of diabetic patients with ketoacidosis—you know, a lot of ketone production—developing Candida overgrowth. There are studies of obese people developing Candida infections when fasting causes ketosis. There are studies showing that serum drawn from fasting patients is less protected against Candida than serum drawn after meals, and that antifungal drugs, and I would assume botanicals, tend to work better in a fed state than a fasted state, where ketone production would be occurring. So there’s this whole kind of constellation of evidence that’s pointing to the idea that ketone production is not a good idea.

 

[Sinapi]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I still wondering why the bone broth experiment with the very high protein content pushed me deeper in ketosis insted to kick me out of it. Could there be stuff in it that the lab didn't measured, like zlyia proposed with the amino acid or maybe the chemical structure of the protein is somewhat different or the chemical properties of bone broth in general has an effect that is still unknown and has nothing to do with the actual amount of proteins and minerals?

Keep in mind that Ketostix are generally not very reliable because they only measure acetoacetate, which is the ketone body produced in excess before your body starts producing more beta-hydroxybutyrate as you become keto-adapted. So, it's possible that the excess protein was causing your body to make beta-hydroxybutyrate less efficiently, thereby indicating more acetoacetate on the Ketostix. In other words, you could've been wasting ketones and thus you were not very deep in ketosis. This is assuming you've been ketogenic for a while and the Ketostix were almost colorless before you began the experiment. It'd be interesting to repeat it with serum ketone levels, but they're unfortunately very expensive to test.

Edit: Alternatively, the dark color on the Ketostix could've been from eating more fat than your body could use for energy. Do your Ketostix still get dark on days you eat about 200g of fat?

Here's more info about Ketostix that was mentioned earlier in the thread:

Here is a quote of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living regarding ketones in the urine:

As noted in Chapter 1, nutritional ketosis is defined by serum ketones ranging from 0.5 up to 5 mM, depending on the amounts of dietary carbohydrate and protein consumed. In most people, the combined intake of 100 grams of carbohydrate and 100 grams of protein will drive serum ketones well below 0.5 mM. While there is nothing magical about having circulating ketones above this threshold level, it does have the practical value of providing the brain with a virtually limitless, fat-derived fuel source. This alternative fuel is eminently more sustainable, particularly in the insulin resistant or carbohydrate intolerant individual.

Within a few days of starting on carbohydrate restriction, most people begin excreting ketones in their urine. This occurs before serum ketones have risen to their stable adapted level because un-adapted renal tubules actively secrete beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate into the urine. This is the same pathway that clears other organic acids like uric acid, vitamin C, and penicillin from the serum.

Meanwhile, the body is undergoing a complex set of adaptations in ketone metabolism[99]. Beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate are made in the liver in about equal proportions, and both are initially promptly oxidized by muscle. But over a matter of weeks, the muscles stop using these ketones for fuel. Instead, muscle cells take up acetoacetate, reduce it to beta-hydroxybutyrate, and return it back into the circulation. Thus after a few weeks, the predominant form in the circulation is beta-hydroxybutyrate, which also happens to be the ketone preferred by brain cells (as an aside, the strips that test for ketones in the urine detect the presence of acetoacetate, not beta-hydroxybutyrate). The result of this process of keto-adaptation is an elegantly choreographed shuttle of fuel from fat cells to liver to muscle to brain.

In the kidney, this process of keto-adaptation is also complex. Over time, urine ketone excretion drops off, perhaps to conserve a valuable energy substrate (although urine ketone excretion never amounts to very many wasted calories). This decline in urine ketones happens over the same time-course that renal uric acid clearance returns to normal (discussed below) and thus may represent an adaptation in kidney organic acid metabolism in response to sustained carbohydrate restriction.

These temporal changes in how the kidneys handle ketones make urine ketone testing a rather uncertain if not undependable way of monitoring dietary response/adherence. Testing serum for beta-hydroxybutyrate is much more accurate but requires drawing blood, and it is expensive be¬cause it is not a routine test that doctors normally order.

A non-invasive alternative is to measure breath acetone concentration. Acetone is produced by the spontaneous (i.e., non-enzymatic) breakdown of acetoacetate. Because it is volatile, acetone comes out in expired air, and its content is linearly correlated with blood ketone levels. A number of busi-nesses have developed prototype handheld devices to measure breath ac-etone, but at the time of this writing, nothing practical is on the market.

But whatever test is used, the key question is why do it? Many people are able to initiate and follow a low carbohydrate diet just fine without ever measuring ketones. Others, however, find an objective measure of nutri-tional ketosis to be reassuring. in some clinical settings, ketone testing is used as a measure of 'diet compliance. While this may be useful in the short term to keep patients on track in a strictly regimented dietary pro¬gram, it begs the question of how that individual's diet will be managed long term. For this purpose, the handheld breath acetone monitors under development hold some promise as a guidance tool put into the hands of the individual striving to find the right level of carbohydrate intake for long-term maintenance.

 

[Foxx]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I was looking round on Chris Kresser's website for treating Candida (I know he's a lot more paleo and against extreme low-carb diets) - but he did seem to be pretty sure of certain candida being able to feed on ketones. At first I disregarded it, but so many people here on the forum where on the Paleo diet for years before starting on Keto - so maybe you treated your candida effectively then.

http://chriskresser.com/top-4-mistakes-people-make-when-treating-candida-overgrowth/

The trouble with GAPS and SCD, depending on how they’re done, is that they can be extremely low-carb diets. If they’re extremely low-carb, they can become ketogenic, which means you start producing ketones. Paul Jaminet was one of the first people to start talking about this a few years ago. But there are several studies that suggest that Candida and other yeast can actually thrive on ketones. So this is one of my biggest problems with a very low-carbohydrate diet—GAPS, SCD or even sort of typical Candida diet—that removes every possible source of glucose or sugar in the diet. That can lead to ketone production. Then there are studies, for example, that show that neutrophils, which are white blood cells, are less able to kill Candida when ketones are present. There are studies of diabetic patients with ketoacidosis—you know, a lot of ketone production—developing Candida overgrowth. There are studies of obese people developing Candida infections when fasting causes ketosis. There are studies showing that serum drawn from fasting patients is less protected against Candida than serum drawn after meals, and that antifungal drugs, and I would assume botanicals, tend to work better in a fed state than a fasted state, where ketone production would be occurring. So there’s this whole kind of constellation of evidence that’s pointing to the idea that ketone production is not a good idea.

I'm an n=1 case of having a yeast overgrowth (two, actually) even after being in ketosis for at least two years and I cured the yeast problem while not in ketosis, but still eating paleo--so being zero carb wasn't necessary to eliminate the yeast. While it's possible that I got the yeast after switching to a paleo diet (still remaining pretty low carb) from the ketogenic one, I don't think it's likely so I think it may be possible that the yeast is feeding of ketones or, at the very least, that the yeast must be actively killed for it to go away and starving it via lack of sugar simply isn't enough, at least in some cases.

I used this with good results for the yeast in my digestive tract:

_http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Candida-Veg-capsules-180-Count/dp/B000E7R3FY/

If I recall correctly, I think I took two pills twice a day (4 total) for about two months. I bought this and tried it out with good results, then I took it to an Applied Kinesiologist that I was seeing to get tested to see if I had yeast, if that would cure it, how much to take, and how long to take it.

A situation later arose that made me wonder if I still had more yeast, which I had tested with the Applied Kinesiologist and he said that I did, and for that I took neem pills:

_http://www.amazon.com/Himalaya-Herbs-Systemic-Purifier-Caplets/dp/B001GCTTPS/

I think I took either one pill twice a day or one pill three times day for about a month. I felt horribly depressed during this process, so it was some pretty nasty stuff in my opinion and one embarking on such a path should be aware that they'll probably feel pretty terrible while doing it, but that it's worth it in the end.

Since I had both a digestive overgrowth and some kind of systemic overgrowth, I had the two treatments of it, but looking back now I wonder if a single treatment of neem would be sufficient to kill both digestive and systemic yeast. For that treatment, I'd probably take one pill three times a day for a couple of months at least, maybe even a few months.

While treating the digestive yeast, the supplement I was taking worked pretty effectively and the major symptoms were probably gone within a week or two, so one might be tempted to stop early, but the full eradication took quite a long time so I'd say it's probably best to be on the safe side and take it for a fairly extended period of time. The indicator for me that I no longer needed to take the treatment was that I got a burning pain in my stomach after taking it, which I then was able to confirm was due to taking the yeast treatment by taking it by itself (along with matching the rough time frame that the Applied Kinesiologist gave me), away from the other supplements I was taking.

The timing and dosage was recommended to me by the Applied Kinesiologist that I saw, so what treatments are effective, along with the dosages and timing for the treatments, may vary from person to person.