Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Dugdeep:

My point being - I don't think we need to fear the bone broth for any reason. While it's interesting to dig in to this stuff, I personally have never felt like I've been kicked out of ketosis from eating bone broth. I'm not a diligent ketone measurer, but I can usually tell if I'm back in sugar burning mode, and that seems to only happen with an over-indulgence in carbs, not because I had some bone broth with my meal or had an extra 2 ounces of steak.

My experience has been somewhat different from yours. I used to measure ketones regularly and found that the single most important factor to kick me out of ketosis was protein and much less carbs. I can tolerate some moderate carb intake, but if I only overindulge on protein a bit, I get kicked out of ketosis pretty quickly.

Just the other day I gorged on protein, had a quarter chicken- felt awful afterwards and my ketone levels were way down. Also had a brain fog. Didn't eat any significant amount of carbs with that meal.

On the other hand bone broth doesn't seem to kick me out of ketosis either.

My two cents.

 

[Sinapi]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've been trying to find references to the amino acid content of bone broth for the last hour and it's not easy to figure out! According to Sally Fallon, in Nourishing Traditions, bone broth contains primarily arginine and glycine (which compose gelatin). Other sources mention proline, glycine, and glutamine, as well as cysteine in the case of chicken broth. Lysine is a component of collagen, in small amounts, so that's probably in bone broth too.

This article on SOTT lists glycine, proline (plus hydroxyproline) and lysine (plus hydroxylysine) as the amino acid profile of gelatin.

Also, you mentioned cysteine in reference to it being an essential amino acid, if I understood you correctly. Just wanted to point out that cysteine is not an essential amino acid (which include isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, valine).

Thanks for the link. When looking at the amino acid profile of gelatin, I just used the USDA data, but it doesn't look like they have an amino acid profile for various broths, which are generally mixed with bouillon anyway. Also, you understood correctly; I made a mistake. I'll get them straight eventually, but until then, I'll mention you forgot histidine in your list. :)

I think this is why, from a practical point of view, it's better to simply restrict protein as a whole, rather than look at individual amino acids.

I like to keep in mind that all the research on mTOR is just burgeoning now, and no firm conclusions are known at this point. I actually think that Gedgaudas has kind of "muddied the field" a bit in her book by talking so much about it. One can maintain a ketogenic diet fairly easily without ever worrying about mTOR (see the Atkins diet); it really only comes into play in terms of longevity. Don't get me wrong; I think it's interesting and it may be beneficial to take steps to not activate mTOR too much. But I don't think it's the primary concern in the diet. My 2 cents, anyway.

I'm inclined to agree with you. From what I can tell, the layman blogs and authors haven't really been discussing mTOR lately, and Rosedale hasn't updated his blog since 2013. I wonder if he's changed his mind. Personally, I feel more energetic when following his protein recommendations, but that's more likely from having to digest less protein than downregulating mTOR.

No, insulinergic means the amino acids cause insulin release in and of themselves. Glucogenic amino acids are the ones that can be converted to glucose. Different things.

I searched again today and see that I wasn't looking hard enough. There's not a whole lot written about specific amino acids outside research papers from what I could tell, and authors don't agree on which ones are the most insulinergic. So, I took a mental shortcut and thought that, because glucose causes an insulin response, these glucogenic amino acids must have been what he was talking about! Wrong! Ironically, leucine and lysine, the ketogenic amino acids, caused the greatest insulin responses in one paper (www.jbc.org/content/179/1/175.full.pdf). There's also another paper that discusses possible mechanisms for insulin secretion by various amino acids, in case anyone's interested (http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/55/Supplement_2/S39.full#F1).

It's possible, but keep in mind that, theoretically, the body will only start converting amino acids to glucose if it has an over-abundance (this is actually a rather hotly debated topic and there are some studies that show gluconeogenesis is not dependant on amino acid availability, as Gedgaudas and Rosedale claim, but based on the body's needs for glucose).

My point being - I don't think we need to fear the bone broth for any reason. While it's interesting to dig in to this stuff, I personally have never felt like I've been kicked out of ketosis from eating bone broth. I'm not a diligent ketone measurer, but I can usually tell if I'm back in sugar burning mode, and that seems to only happen with an over-indulgence in carbs, not because I had some bone broth with my meal or had an extra 2 ounces of steak.

I think you're right. With how contradictory the science is on this topic, it's probably best to just keep testing and see what works for your body, as has been said numerous times before. It might be possible that in severely metabolically compromised individuals that any extra amino acids from bone broth could cause problems staying in ketosis, but that should be explored only when other issues are ruled out. Broth has never caused me to go out of ketosis, either. Like nicklebleu, though, I get horrible brain fog if I eat way too much meat-based protein in one sitting. It's interesting to speculate, but probably isn't something most people need to worry about.

Thanks for your feedback, dugdeep!

 

[davey72]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Did the author state where the bones came from? I would imagine a big discrepency between store bought, and grass/naturally fed animals.

From the protocol section:

If I was going to make bone broth and have it tested by a lab, I wanted it to be the best bone broth possible. Surely there would be a sliding scale of mineral concentration that would depend on such factors as bone type, size, quality, PH and cooking time. I wanted my broth to be in the upper limits of this scale. I also wanted the broth to be reproducible and therefore representative of what at least some people are already doing out there.

I decided to use venison bones. I live on a small island in the Pacific Northwest and we have an abundance of mule deer. Over the winter I had hunted a nice young buck and kept all his bones for future broths. Since the mule deer are quite small here, the bone yield is about as much as you’d get from a big lamb. As the bones weren’t very big I decided to make a mix, using every part of the body possible; long bones including joints, from the limbs (to get that nice soft marrow), hip bones, shoulder blades and backbone segments which included some nice spinal cord (no CWD to worry about in these parts). The bones were all scraped clean of meat and either cut or broken up to increase surface area. Deer bones are also quite thin so after cooking they easily fall apart.

From the 'new protocol' section:

Since I considered my first experiment to be less than successful, I decided to take it up a notch. I needed to increase the cooking time for sure, but I also decided to add vinegar to the broth to reduce PH and sent the samples to a bigger, more professional lab in the hopes of getting the most accurate results.

I used store-bought bones from grass-fed bison and cooked them for a total of 24hrs. I also used this opportunity to take a sample of broth midway through the boil (at 12hrs) to see the progression. I wondered if there was perhaps a “critical point” when the bones really started to shed their minerals; i.e. was the progression fairly linear or was it perhaps exponential beyond a certain point?

Then his last round:

The minerals are being bound out of solution through chemical reactions in the broth. I.e. perhaps the minerals are reacting with certain proteins or other structures and precipitating out of the broth. This would explain why the calcium values were actually lower in the broths than in the plain water. It also explains why it seemed to affect some minerals more than others; perhaps there is a chemical affinity for some minerals in this particular environment due to their unique chemical properties.
The minerals are not actually being “released” from their glyco-protein matrixes in the bones and other tissues. The macro structure of the bone is breaking down, but only into smaller micro structures that simply sink to the bottom of the pot; not small enough to be dissolved or kept in suspension.

Put simply, most of the minerals were likely in the sediments at the bottom of the pot. This is not news to anyone who’s made bone broth and experienced the soft sand-like grit waiting for you at the bottom of each bowl. Of course, it wasn’t news to me either, but I still expected the broth itself to be quite rich in minerals. The fact that it is not, and even that it’s mineral poor, was news.

I couldn’t stop there; I had to know how many minerals were in the sediments. I decided I would make yet another batch of broth, but this time separate the sediment from the broth and have both analyzed separately. I used the same protocol as above, but used 3lbs of locally pastured grass-fed cow bones and cooked them for 9hrs in my trusty pressure-cooker. When it was done cooking, I let it cool and removed all the bones from it. Once everything was settled, I carefully ladled all of the broth out until I was left with only the sediment layer. I scraped and poured all of it into a jar (only about 60ml or 2oz worth). I sent this jar along with a sample of the broth to the lab for analysis.

So from his analyses, it seems like the most minerals are in the sediment. Go figure. But the only impressive number coming from the sediment is calcium. Considering how complicated this seems to be, perhaps it really is necessary to add in things like onions and celery and the like to release the minerals?

Having used a lot of deer bones myself i can say that they are a strange type of bone. When boiled down they are like a very hard plastic, and they break in shards. Its hard to explain, but i have always felt like they dont give much. With other bones you can see them "wasting" away, but not so with deer bones, so i think the experiment should be done with other types of bones to be sure. Also Caribou apparently has almost no nutrition for another type of example

 

[A Jay]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Dugdeep:

My point being - I don't think we need to fear the bone broth for any reason. While it's interesting to dig in to this stuff, I personally have never felt like I've been kicked out of ketosis from eating bone broth. I'm not a diligent ketone measurer, but I can usually tell if I'm back in sugar burning mode, and that seems to only happen with an over-indulgence in carbs, not because I had some bone broth with my meal or had an extra 2 ounces of steak.

My experience has been somewhat different from yours. I used to measure ketones regularly and found that the single most important factor to kick me out of ketosis was protein and much less carbs. I can tolerate some moderate carb intake, but if I only overindulge on protein a bit, I get kicked out of ketosis pretty quickly.

Just the other day I gorged on protein, had a quarter chicken- felt awful afterwards and my ketone levels were way down. Also had a brain fog. Didn't eat any significant amount of carbs with that meal.

On the other hand bone broth doesn't seem to kick me out of ketosis either.

My two cents.

Did you have an equal portion of fat to go with that quarter chicken? When I tested my glucose and ketones regularly I found that large amounts of protein (8oz or more in one sitting without extra fat) would temporarily have my ketones at ~.3-.4mmol. However, on several occasions, to test my hypothesis on fat being a regulating factor in protein digestion and the insulinogenic effect of protein, I ate 12-16 oz of meat in one sitting with a helping of fat that was within or exceeded the 3-4:1 fat:protein energy ratio and my ketones and glucose remained relatively stable with only minimal to no brain fog effect. I never measured the effect of broth on my ketone levels, but from my n=1 experiments the data suggests that so long as one is getting enough fat one may can get away with eating as much protein as one wants. Though I wouldn't recommend it, one becomes rather lethargic after a pound of meat and a half pound of fat in one meal.

I should probably mention that during these experiments I was training martial arts 3-4 days a week, working as a stocker at a grocery store, and doing high-intensity resistance training twice a week. So I was able to tolerate more protein than most.

I think this is why, from a practical point of view, it's better to simply restrict protein as a whole, rather than look at individual amino acids.

I like to keep in mind that all the research on mTOR is just burgeoning now, and no firm conclusions are known at this point. I actually think that Gedgaudas has kind of "muddied the field" a bit in her book by talking so much about it. One can maintain a ketogenic diet fairly easily without ever worrying about mTOR (see the Atkins diet); it really only comes into play in terms of longevity. Don't get me wrong; I think it's interesting and it may be beneficial to take steps to not activate mTOR too much. But I don't think it's the primary concern in the diet. My 2 cents, anyway.

I'm inclined to agree with you. From what I can tell, the layman blogs and authors haven't really been discussing mTOR lately, and Rosedale hasn't updated his blog since 2013. I wonder if he's changed his mind. Personally, I feel more energetic when following his protein recommendations, but that's more likely from having to digest less protein than downregulating mTOR.

I agree. I think it's interesting to discuss as a possibility, but there's just too many factors playing into the aging process to say that it's worthwhile to worry about mTOR stimulation. Personally, I'm a big fan of ghrelin's effect on concentration and attention, so I like to have my meals such that it supports my ghrelin addiction with little regard for mTOR. Which means bigger portions and fewer meals.

Having used a lot of deer bones myself i can say that they are a strange type of bone. When boiled down they are like a very hard plastic, and they break in shards. Its hard to explain, but i have always felt like they dont give much. With other bones you can see them "wasting" away, but not so with deer bones, so i think the experiment should be done with other types of bones to be sure. Also Caribou apparently has almost no nutrition for another type of example

I would think that any ruminant animal would be the best of the best, but there can still be differences between species. Not sure what they would be or how though. We need our own laboratory so we can just do these dang experiments ourselves.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yeah, for what it's worth, I've never been kicked out of ketosis since going into it around late February 2011. I've eaten big portions of protein on occasion, but had lots of fat with it. I've also had extra carbs during holidays with lots of fat, like homemade chocolate, but never got kicked out of ketosis (although the most net carbs I've had since being in ketosis is probably less than 30 grams daily, where I'd estimate I'd have to get to around 50 grams to have a chance of be kicked out of ketosis). But everyone's different and some people may have lower thresholds for being kicked out of ketosis from too much protein or carbs in one meal than others.

 

[Psalehesost]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I recently read the article on SOTT, Adding high amounts of salt to a high-fat diet prevents weight increase in mice. This made me think that if high amounts of salt likewise impairs digestion of fat in humans, then it may not be a good idea to have too much of it at the same time as the food.

I've eaten very large amounts of salt with my meals for a long time (perhaps several times more than most people here), but will see if something changes if I make the amount had with my meals more moderate. I'm one of the skinny people who haven't gained weight even when eating lots of fat, so that's one thing I'll look at.

 

[CNS]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I recently read the article on SOTT, Adding high amounts of salt to a high-fat diet prevents weight increase in mice. This made me think that if high amounts of salt likewise impairs digestion of fat in humans, then it may not be a good idea to have too much of it at the same time as the food.

I've eaten very large amounts of salt with my meals for a long time (perhaps several times more than most people here), but will see if something changes if I make the amount had with my meals more moderate. I'm one of the skinny people who haven't gained weight even when eating lots of fat, so that's one thing I'll look at.

I have been in ketosis since November of last year, and have lost 20 or so pounds (9 kilos). I did wonder if some was just water weight, which I have increased my salt intake as well (subsequently, I have been peeing more). I salt everything, my meat, my veggies, I even salt my already salted butter. I do feel at this point I have plateaued in my weight loss, but from the sounds of it, my salt intake still might be moderate compared to yours. I have read that some folks do gain back a little after the initial loss. I think I might have gained a pound or 2 (~1 kilo) recenetly, so perhaps I have found my natural weight?

 

[Εἰρήνη]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have been in ketosis since November of last year, and have lost 20 or so pounds (9 kilos). I did wonder if some was just water weight, which I have increased my salt intake as well (subsequently, I have been peeing more).

CNS, I am sure it was both: fat and water weight.

I have read that some folks do gain back a little after the initial loss. I think I might have gained a pound or 2 (~1 kilo) recenetly, so perhaps I have found my natural weight?

Do you think you might have recently increased your consumption of protein? Maybe the reason you gained a pound or 2 is because you started to add more meat to your diet.

 

[CNS]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Do you think you might have recently increased your consumption of protein? Maybe the reason you gained a pound or 2 is because you started to add more meat to your diet.

I don't think so, but I will have to take a better look at that. I have actually increased my fat intake in the past couple months, so I just thought that was the reason. But thank you, I will pay more attention on a meal to meal basis and see if I have increased my protein more than I was aware.

 

[Keit]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I recently read the article on SOTT, Adding high amounts of salt to a high-fat diet prevents weight increase in mice. This made me think that if high amounts of salt likewise impairs digestion of fat in humans, then it may not be a good idea to have too much of it at the same time as the food.

Actually, the exact opposite appears to be correct.

Salt is also used to emulsify fats. Our liver makes bile for that purpose also. Without salt in our diet, fats (and fat soluble vitamins - A-D-E-K) are not absorbed. Vitamins A and E are excellent antioxidants and are beneficial to keeping our skin and epithelium in good condition. Vitamin K is needed for platelet (clotting) function and vitamin D is essential for the proper utilization of calcium, one of the more important macro-minerals. Deficiencies in either of these essential fat-soluble vitamins would only decrease one's health and would not be acceptable. Salt is needed to ensure the adequate absorption of fats and fat soluble vitamins. Jacques de Langre, PhD stated, "Salt is required to emulsify fats and oils in order for them to be digestible. Hydrochloric acid is produced only if chlorine is present in the right ratio; this can be assured only if natural sea salt is used."

It appears that fat likes salt, but also doesn't take more than needed. One of the traditional Russian pork dishes is salo, or salted fat. And the way to prepare it is to take a piece of fat and cover it from all sides in coarse salt and spices and leave it one day outside and then in the fridge for a week or so. And even if you will use a kilo of salt to cover the fat, it won't absorb more than it "needs". It won't be "too salty", but "just right". fwiw.

BUT, if your goal is to prevent rapid weight loss, than maybe reducing the salt may help with that. Here's what it says from the SOTT article:

To their surprise, the mice on the high-fat diet with the lowest salt gained the most weight, about 15 grams over 16 weeks, while animals on the high-fat, highest salt diet had low weight gain that was similar to the chow-fed mice, about 5 grams.

 

[Psalehesost]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I recently read the article on SOTT, Adding high amounts of salt to a high-fat diet prevents weight increase in mice. This made me think that if high amounts of salt likewise impairs digestion of fat in humans, then it may not be a good idea to have too much of it at the same time as the food.

Actually, the exact opposite appears to be correct. [...]

BUT, if your goal is to prevent rapid weight loss, than maybe reducing the salt may help with that. [...]

There's no weight loss to prevent, simply thinking (probably wrongly) that I'd perhaps found an answer to why my weight is still a bit low. It's been around ~52 kg for about 7 years or so, unaffected by dietary changes. (Going from eating vegetarian junk and drinking sugary stuff, to gluten and dairy free, then adding meat and more fat in 2010, to very-low-carb and high-fat in 2011, and following the evolving ketogenic approach since.)

As long as I have enough fuel, this weight is maintained, but seems almost impossible to increase, regardless of the amount of fat eaten (or further in the past, the amount of carbs eaten). What's missing seems to be "lean weight", though - having somewhat less muscle mass than average. And it does not increase easily with excercise, judging by some previous efforts at that.

 

[Turgon]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I recently read the article on SOTT, Adding high amounts of salt to a high-fat diet prevents weight increase in mice. This made me think that if high amounts of salt likewise impairs digestion of fat in humans, then it may not be a good idea to have too much of it at the same time as the food.

Actually, the exact opposite appears to be correct. [...]

BUT, if your goal is to prevent rapid weight loss, than maybe reducing the salt may help with that. [...]

There's no weight loss to prevent, simply thinking (probably wrongly) that I'd perhaps found an answer to why my weight is still a bit low. It's been around ~52 kg for about 7 years or so, unaffected by dietary changes. (Going from eating vegetarian junk and drinking sugary stuff, to gluten and dairy free, then adding meat and more fat in 2010, to very-low-carb and high-fat in 2011, and following the evolving ketogenic approach since.)

As long as I have enough fuel, this weight is maintained, but seems almost impossible to increase, regardless of the amount of fat eaten (or further in the past, the amount of carbs eaten). What's missing seems to be "lean weight", though - having somewhat less muscle mass than average. And it does not increase easily with excercise, judging by some previous efforts at that.

I ended up losing a lot of weight when cutting out gluten, dairy, etc. And even more so when transitioning to ketosis. However, I think the missing element for me was heavy weight training. Exercise is one thing, but I think if a person is skinny, and they want to increase their weight on this diet, you need to do a lot of compound exercise weight training (squats, deadlifts, bench press, rows, shoulder press, dips, etc) and supplement that with a slightly higher protein ratio and more fat. I was staying steady at 122-125 lbs and now I'm about 138 lbs after 8 months of steady training.

I'm not sure what type of exercise you were engaging in, but I found Crossfit worked, and also doing compound exercises, with a few additional workouts, worked only when I found the right ratio of reps/sets needed. i.e. most exercises consist of 4 sets of 10 reps to near or total failure and I always work on my legs first. So an example would be squats, calf raises, rows, shoulder press. And I try and keep the workout at 45 minutes or less. That seems to be doing the trick and I've noticed my weight slowly increasing. Although I don't eat the recommended 25g of protein or measure my protein too much anymore, so the mTOR pathway is more than likely getting activated, but I'm still in ketosis and do want to encourage growth of muscle so I am purposely eating slightly more protein than I used to.

 

[fabric]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm also one of those skinnies that just couldn't put on weight no matter what I did. I remember weighed about 105lbs for the longest time and it wasn't until I started exercising that I finally put on weight, now at around 120-125lbs. I did crossfit for a year and really enjoyed it, but it's not for everyone as it can be really intense. I'm now doing heavy lifting at the gym, just 4 basic exercises with the olympic bar - squats, deadlifts, shoulder presses and bench presses. These hit all the major muscle groups and don't take very long to do. Squats and deadlifts in particular really stimulate HGH (human growth hormone) which I think was the missing ingredient for me to add some weight.

 

[hlat]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think eating a lot of fat bombs/pudding will result in weight gain.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

For info regarding weight loss/gain on keto, check out _http://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/ (especially the FAQ in the sidebar).

Generally it's as simple as Fabric mentioned: Resistance exercise and caloric surplus.

However there are deeper problems that stop people from gaining (or losing) weight, such as gut health, general toxicity, hormonal imbalance, methylation defects and I'm guessing that parasitic infections also play a major role.