Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[axj]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Okay, thanks Yas.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

For specific questions about ketosis, you can search just this thread, ajx. To get into ketosis, you need to generally lower you net carbs (not counting fiber) to around 50 grams daily. And add fat as 75% to 85% of total calories per day. But as Yas said, it's different for different people. So you should read as much of this thread as possible, and then experiment to see where you feel optimal.

 

[Anthony]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Okay, thanks Yas.

You can also check out the dietary research of the Sott.net forum which is freely available. It summarizes a lot of information that is included in this thread.

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,34581.msg511468.html#msg511468

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

After doing the 10 day protocol I can apparently now eat/drink coconut milk without noticeable discomfort. Since doing so, I notice a big boost in mood, energy and focus for 1-2 hours after having a large quantity, and the usual sluggishness goes away.

I'm guessing it's due mostly to the MCTs, which then begs the question: Does this mean I am not digesting other types of fat effectively? Anyone else have this, or have any thoughts on the matter?

 

[RedFox]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

That's good to hear Carl!

After doing the 10 day protocol I can apparently now eat/drink coconut milk without noticeable discomfort. Since doing so, I notice a big boost in mood, energy and focus for 1-2 hours after having a large quantity, and the usual sluggishness goes away.

I'm guessing it's due mostly to the MCTs, which then begs the question: Does this mean I am not digesting other types of fat effectively? Anyone else have this, or have any thoughts on the matter?

fwiw I worked out that my stomach acid was weak due to symptoms of mineral depletion. I should have been getting all I needed from the food I eat, yet mineral supplements still gave a positive effect. I also needed to eat a lot of food to not loose weight.
Part of it was to do with how my body failed to utilize the energy, the other was stomach acid.
Stomach acid is needed to chelate minerals so you can absorb them. It's also needed to stimulate bile and fat digestion. I have noticed some energy boosts with coconut cream after correcting for this, but it seems to be a more global thing (fat gives me a lot of energy now, and I don't have to eat a lot). I also can't handle the extra stomach acid now.

One of the weak points is gut repair and digestion when it comes to MTHFR problems. You might want to try a rare/medium steak with a green leaf salad (no spinach) and olive oil to see how you do.
If that helps you may need a bit of carnitine too (do the supplements for the protocol have canitine in?).

MCT may be helping with digestion of other fats as the body can absorb it without needing to release bile, and can turn it into bile for digesting other fats.

I may give the protocol a go to see if I've missed anything.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

fwiw I worked out that my stomach acid was weak due to symptoms of mineral depletion. I should have been getting all I needed from the food I eat, yet mineral supplements still gave a positive effect. I also needed to eat a lot of food to not loose weight.
Part of it was to do with how my body failed to utilize the energy, the other was stomach acid.
Stomach acid is needed to chelate minerals so you can absorb them. It's also needed to stimulate bile and fat digestion. I have noticed some energy boosts with coconut cream after correcting for this, but it seems to be a more global thing (fat gives me a lot of energy now, and I don't have to eat a lot). I also can't handle the extra stomach acid now.

Cheers RedFox, it sounds like you are making some real progress :).

It sounds most likely to be that, yeah. Thing is, before and after the protocol I had lost weight down to <61kg purposely in order to give my digestion a break and get rid of excess fat that may have been contributing to hormonal issues. I got rather skinny especially after the protocol, have started trying to eat a lot and gain weight since, lifting 3x a week and working on stress management.

I take 2-3 caps of HCL, 1-2 caps of enzymes with meals and Ox Bile with fat bombs, but I never reach the burning feeling and am thinking that I might need even more (which would be expensive!). I still get sluggish and foggy-headed after meals (even with just meat/fat bomb).

Did/do you have to take large quantities of HCL or bile still, or has it evened itself out?

One of the weak points is gut repair and digestion when it comes to MTHFR problems. You might want to try a rare/medium steak with a green leaf salad (no spinach) and olive oil to see how you do.
If that helps you may need a bit of carnitine too (do the supplements for the protocol have canitine in?).

Well I don't need an excuse for a steak ;) Why no spinach? While we're on the subject, I eat a lot of green beans and broccoli with my meals when in work, to soak up more fat. Could broccoli perhaps be an issue?

I have been taking carnitine throughout for it's use in fat oxidation and also increasing androgen receptor density (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826026) so may not notice a difference there.

MCT may be helping with digestion of other fats as the body can absorb it without needing to release bile, and can turn it into bile for digesting other fats.

I may give the protocol a go to see if I've missed anything.

Worth a try if you have some supplements left over. I didn't fully stick to the mono-meals thing because it just ended up too inconvenient when you need like 6-8 meals a day and only have 5 hours of free time on week days. However it seems to have helped a little bit.

 

[Jenn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I take 2-3 caps of HCL, 1-2 caps of enzymes with meals and Ox Bile with fat bombs, but I never reach the burning feeling and am thinking that I might need even more (which would be expensive!). I still get sluggish and foggy-headed after meals (even with just meat/fat bomb).

Fwiw I get this too, even to the point sometimes where I fall asleep. I've noticed that when I only eat meat and a little fat then I'm ok, but when I have the fatbomb with the meal aswel I get sleepy. I thought it might be that I was eating too much in one go and my body was having to use alot of energy to digest it and therefore made me sleepy, but I could be wrong

 

[patty2292]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I take 2-3 caps of HCL, 1-2 caps of enzymes with meals and Ox Bile with fat bombs, but I never reach the burning feeling and am thinking that I might need even more (which would be expensive!). I still get sluggish and foggy-headed after meals (even with just meat/fat bomb).

Fwiw I get this too, even to the point sometimes where I fall asleep. I've noticed that when I only eat meat and a little fat then I'm ok, but when I have the fatbomb with the meal aswel I get sleepy. I thought it might be that I was eating too much in one go and my body was having to use alot of energy to digest it and therefore made me sleepy, but I could be wrong

After going ten days without fatbomb, and having it this evening with tea - ive noticed that it is very dense. A hard substance to digest, especially when quite abit is consumed. Ive only had a small amount, and already i feel heavy and slow. Because it tastes so nice, and is made with fat i think its easy to just guzzle down and say its all good. But due to its consistency and texture, it even looks quite hard to digest as a food.
Im thinking of trying to space it out, say a little bit before my meal and a little after. As normally i eat my meat, then pile the fatbomb on top of it without a breather.

 

[Foxx]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I take 2-3 caps of HCL, 1-2 caps of enzymes with meals and Ox Bile with fat bombs, but I never reach the burning feeling and am thinking that I might need even more (which would be expensive!). I still get sluggish and foggy-headed after meals (even with just meat/fat bomb).

FWIW I think there might be a difference in the quality (manufacturing and sourcing practices) that affect the efficacy of HCL (or many other supplements). I tried HCL at least a couple times and never had positive results (primarily it didn't solve reflux problems/enable me to properly digest food), but I have been having good results with "Bio-Gest" by Thorne Research:

60 caps: http://smile.amazon.com/Thorne-Research-Bio-Gest-Vegetarian-Capsules/dp/B000FGWDF4/

180 caps: http://smile.amazon.com/Thorne-Research-Bio-Gest-180C-Count/dp/B000VYQJ8W/

It's not cheap, but may be more effective than lower priced HCL supplements.

 

[RedFox]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It sounds most likely to be that, yeah. Thing is, before and after the protocol I had lost weight down to <61kg purposely in order to give my digestion a break and get rid of excess fat that may have been contributing to hormonal issues. I got rather skinny especially after the protocol, have started trying to eat a lot and gain weight since, lifting 3x a week and working on stress management.

I take 2-3 caps of HCL, 1-2 caps of enzymes with meals and Ox Bile with fat bombs, but I never reach the burning feeling and am thinking that I might need even more (which would be expensive!). I still get sluggish and foggy-headed after meals (even with just meat/fat bomb).

I had a long period of either not eating enough so that I didn't feel foggy/feel like I was going to fall asleep at work, but would keep loosing weight (I went down to 55kg at my lowest), or eat large meals to keep my weight steady (at the time it wouldn't go up, and exercise would cause weight to go down) and just accept I was going to fall asleep and be foggy for hours afterwards.
If I remember correctly a few things changed this.
The first one was the MTHFR protocol.

The second was berberine (I see that the 10 day protocol includes it). It healed my gut better than anything else (heck I didn't know it wasn't healed), and balanced my blood sugar (again I didn't know it wasn't balanced as I wasn't testing it).
So it seems my body was in sugar burning (breaking down muscle for sugar) mode - ever notice an amonia smell, especially on waking?
The berberine and MTHFR protocol helped kick me into fat burning mode, and I gained some fat and muscle. Heavy lifting exercise was important here too.

After that was looking into the stress/cortisol connection. Which helped a bit.

Did/do you have to take large quantities of HCL or bile still, or has it evened itself out?

Lastly I added the HCL, b6, zinc, selenium and carnitine. Mostly to try and get my glutathione levels up.
My need for HCL dropped off after introducing the zinc etc and seems pretty stable now. I can't take HCL without it causing my intestines to react - I'll get to that, but it seems to be sulphur related.

Well I don't need an excuse for a steak ;) Why no spinach? While we're on the subject, I eat a lot of green beans and broccoli with my meals when in work, to soak up more fat. Could broccoli perhaps be an issue?

I have been taking carnitine throughout for it's use in fat oxidation and also increasing androgen receptor density (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826026) so may not notice a difference there.

Give the rare steak a go and see what your energy does. There is active forms of B12, folate, carnisine and carnitine in the meat which get destroyed by cooking.
Why no spinach? I tend to react badly to it - lots of pain/fatigue. This may have changed but I haven't tested it yet.

Broccoli may be a problem because it's a high sulphur food.
Too much sulphur in food or too much HCL (which is sulphuric acid) produce the same results for me, digestive problems followed by fatigue.

Taking the GG probiotics as well as a whole bunch of soil based probiotics helped fix some of this, so did the berberine.
The MTHFR protocol apparently helps unload your body of stored sulphur too (I need to check if I have a CBS/SOUX mutation), and I do notice my capacity to handle sulphur containing food has increased.

I posted about a connection to crones/fibromyalga and the type of gut bacteria you have somewhere on the forum. The difference between remission or not was related to sulphur reducing bacteria in the gut - can't remember if they where high/low in those in remission or not.

So just to check my understanding is correct I hit google:
https://www.paleohacks.com/paleo/sulfur-intolerance-aka-poor-sulfur-oxidation-ever-heard-of-it-6702

Sulfur intolerance is a misnomer. Most with this issue have a problem with foods with a high level of free thiol groups. It also tends to walk hand and hand with Hg toxicity and Selenium deficiency and severe thyroid dysfunction.

The thiol groups allow the Hg to become free in vivo and cause the symptoms. The food does not have to have high sulfur levels to cause this. The most common causes of this in the USA are coffee and chocolate in my experience.

The diagnosis is suspected in those with high Mercury levels. Chelation is the best treatment for this.

We used to have an easy screening test called a plasma cysteine test but it is no longer available to my knowledge. So now you have to do a sulfur exclusion test. Pain in the ass too. In the old days when plasma cysteine was up we would just put you on glutamine and glycine supplements and this would convert the cysteine to glutathione in vivo and it worked real well.

The real reason this is a big issue for paleo folks is many of the foods advocated in paleo 1.0 books have to be eliminated due to the sulfur intolerance. For example, and milk of any kind, kale, sauerkraut, artichokes, eggs, cream, turmeric, spinach, whey, garlic broccoli, cauliflower, onions and all cheeses of any sort.

Kinda sucks.

The rest of the thread goes into other elements, from mutation to parasites and bacteria.

I've run several heavy metal tests with no hint of mercury (or any other heavy metals), so I wonder if it's locked up somewhere.
DMSA didn't phase me at all (I noticed no difference taking it). EDTA/ALA gives me a general energy boost though.
Probably explains why the selenium is helping, perhaps it was just a deficiency in that?

 

[RedFox]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just to add to the above I have problems with epsom salts, excess sulphur containing foods, and excess HCL.
Looks like another reason to go for the autoimmune protocol:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/molybdenum-and-transsulfuration-pathway.9387/

Here's what I suggest is going on: You have sulfate-reducing bacteria in your gut. When you take molybdenum, you convert sulfite to sulfate more rapidly, raising the sulfate concentration in your blood, some of which is transported into the gut. When you bathe in Epsom salt, which is magnesium sulfate, you also raise the sulfate level in your blood and thence in the gut.

The sulfate-reducing bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide. If this is produced at a high enough rate, it overcomes the capacity of the sulfide oxidase enzyme in the cells lining the gut, and thus is able to enter the bloodstream. Hydrogen sulfide is toxic at high enough levels, and I suggest that that is what is producing your symptoms. Marian Lemle and Dr. Kenny de Meirleir have done a lot of work on hydrogen sulfide in connection with ME/CFS. Protea Pharma lab offers a urine test for hydrogen sulfide. The human metabolism itself does not have the ability to chemically reduce sulfate, but sulfate-reducing bacteria in the gut do have this capacity. If you are able to run a comprehensive stool analysis, such as the Diagnos-techs Expanded G.I. panel or the other ones offered by Genova Diagnostic, Metametrix or Doctor's Data, you could probably identify the bacteria that are responsible, and perhaps target them with a specific (not broad-spectrum) antibiotic, alternated with probiotics to shift your intestinal flora to a more healthy community.

 

[lainey]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The real reason this is a big issue for paleo folks is many of the foods advocated in paleo 1.0 books have to be eliminated due to the sulfur intolerance. For example, and milk of any kind, kale, sauerkraut, artichokes, eggs, cream, turmeric, spinach, whey, garlic broccoli, cauliflower, onions and all cheeses of any sort.

Ah ha! Thanks for this RedFox. It was only yesterday that I tried re-introducing tumeric into my diet and it made me feel really nauseous. Also I knew there wasn't something quite right about me and sauerkraut.
I think egg yolks in fats bombs in small amounts might be ok. I pulled this up off the internet:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/289250-list-of-foods-high-in-sulfur/

Eggs

Eggs are not only a rich source of protein, they're high in sulfur, with the white, or albumen, containing the majority. Each egg yolk contains 0.016 milligram of sulfur, and the white contains 0.195 milligram, according to B. Srilakshmi, author of "Food Science." Egg yolks contain dietary cholesterol, however, which has been linked to increased blood cholesterol levels. University of Michigan Health System recommends limiting egg consumption to one per day, with the exception of people with high cholesterol who should eat no more than four eggs per week.

Many people already remove the egg whites from their diet already.
I'm collecting some minerals today. I used a company called viridian. I don't know if anyone has heard of them before. Most of their products don't contain magnesium stearate and instead use a base of alfalfa, spirulina and bilberry. And the trace minerals complex doesn't contain iron. FWIW

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

HCL (which is sulphuric acid)

HCl is Hydrochloric Acid, not Sulfuric Acid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid

 

[H-KQGE]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

@lainey, Viridian products are okay. When I initially changed my diet a few years ago, I was completely exasperated by the amount of companies that used unnecessary gunk as part of their ingredients. I was shopping at health stores at the time though, so choice was limited, but Viridian was one of two maybe three companies that weren't blatantly trying to poison consumers. I'd actually forgotten about them since finding more products on the internet. I'll have to remember them as an option when some other products can't be obtained. Thanks for mentioning them.

 

[RedFox]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

HCL (which is sulphuric acid)

HCl is Hydrochloric Acid, not Sulfuric Acid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid

Thanks well that rules that out as a sulfur problem.