Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I thought there would be people on here who would like to read this and comment on it.
More "gluten is safe" propaganda...
My initial thoughts:
-I would like to know exactly what they were eating
-There wasn't a long enough period of time OFF gluten to be able to discern a difference
-What scientific data was being measured other than study members' reporting of gi distress, etc. Like, what exactly were they checking for in the urine and fecal samples?

From RealClearScience.com

Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity May Not Exist
Posted by Ross Pomeroy May 14, 2014


In 2011, Peter Gibson, a professor of gastroenterology at Monash University and director of the GI Unit at The Alfred Hospital in Melbourne, Australia, published a study that found gluten, a protein found in grains like wheat, rye, and barley, to cause gastrointestinal distress in patients without celiac disease, an autoimmune disorder unequivocally triggered by gluten. Double-blinded, randomized, and placebo-controlled, the experiment was one of the strongest pieces of evidence to date that non-celiac gluten sensitivity (NCGS), more commonly known as gluten intolerance, is a genuine condition.
By extension, the study also lent credibility to the meteoric rise of the gluten-free diet. Surveys now show that 30% of Americans would like to eat less gluten, and sales of gluten-free products are estimated to hit $15 billion by 2016 -- that's a 50% jump over 2013's numbers!
But like any meticulous scientist, Gibson wasn't satisfied with his first study. His research turned up no clues to what actually might be causing subjects' adverse reactions to gluten. Moreover, there were many more variables to control! What if some hidden confounder was mucking up the results? He resolved to repeat the trial with a level of rigor lacking in most nutritional research. Subjects would be provided with every single meal for the duration of the trial. Any and all potential dietary triggers for gastrointestinal symptoms would be removed, including lactose (from milk products), certain preservatives like benzoates, propionate, sulfites, and nitrites, and fermentable, poorly absorbed short-chain carbohydrates, also known as FODMAPs. And last, but not least, nine days worth of urine and fecal matter would be collected. With this new study, Gibson wasn't messing around.
37 subjects took part, all confirmed not to have celiac disease but whose gastrointestinal symptoms improved on a gluten-free diet, thus fulfilling the diagnostic criteria for non-celiac gluten sensitivity.** They were first fed a diet low in FODMAPs for two weeks (baseline), then were given one of three diets for a week with either 16 grams per day of added gluten (high-gluten), 2 grams of gluten and 14 grams of whey protein isolate (low-gluten), or 16 grams of whey protein isolate (placebo). Each subject shuffled through every single diet so that they could serve as their own controls, and none ever knew what specific diet he or she was eating. After the main experiment, a second was conducted to ensure that the whey protein placebo was suitable. In this one, 22 of the original subjects shuffled through three different diets -- 16 grams of added gluten, 16 grams of added whey protein isolate, or the baseline diet -- for three days each.
Analyzing the data, Gibson found that each treatment diet, whether it included gluten or not, prompted subjects to report a worsening of gastrointestinal symptoms to similar degrees. Reported pain, bloating, nausea, and gas all increased over the baseline low-FODMAP diet. Even in the second experiment, when the placebo diet was identical to the baseline diet, subjects reported a worsening of symptoms! The data clearly indicated that a nocebo effect, the same reaction that prompts some people to get sick from wind turbines and wireless internet, was at work here. Patients reported gastrointestinal distress without any apparent physical cause. Gluten wasn't the culprit; the cause was likely psychological. Participants expected the diets to make them sick, and so they did. The finding led Gibson to the opposite conclusion of his 2011 research:
“In contrast to our first study… we could find absolutely no specific response to gluten."
Instead, as RCS reported last week, FODMAPS are a far more likely cause of the gastrointestinal problems attributed to gluten intolerance. Jessica Biesiekierski, a gastroenterologist formerly at Monash University and now based out of the Translational Research Center for Gastrointestinal Disorders at the University of Leuven in Belgium,* and lead author of the study alongside Gibson, noted that when participants consumed the baseline low-FODMAP diet, almost all reported that their symptoms improved!
"Reduction of FODMAPs in their diets uniformly reduced gastrointestinal symptoms and fatigue in the run-in period, after which they were minimally symptomatic."
Coincidentally, some of the largest dietary sources of FODMAPs -- specifically bread products -- are removed when adopting a gluten-free diet, which could explain why the millions of people worldwide who swear by gluten-free diets feel better after going gluten-free.
Indeed, the rise in non-celiac gluten sensitivity seems predominantly driven by consumers and commercial interests, not quality scientific research.
"On current evidence the existence of the entity of NCGS remains unsubstantiated," Biesiekierski noted in a review published in December to the journal Current Allergy and Asthma Reports.
Consider this: no underlying cause for gluten intolerance has yet been discovered. Moreover, there are a host of triggers for gastrointestinal distress, many of which were not controlled for in previous studies. Generally, non-celiac gluten sensitivity is assumed to be the culprit when celiac disease is ruled out. But that is a "trap," Biesiekierski says, one which could potentially lead to confirmation bias, thus blinding researchers, doctors, and patients to other possibilities.
Biesiekierski recognizes that gluten may very well be the stomach irritant we've been looking for. "There is definitely something going on," she told RCS, "but true NCGS may only affect a very small number of people and may affect more extraintestinal symptoms than first thought. This will only be confirmed with an understanding of its mechanism."
Currently, Biesiekierski is focused on maintaining an open mind and refining her experimental methods to determine whether or not non-celiac gluten sensitivity truly exists.
"We need to make sure that this research is as well controlled as possible and is reproducible," Biesiekierski told RCS, subsequently adding the quintessential adage of proper science.
"Much, much more research is needed."
Source: Biesiekierski JR, Peters SL, Newnham ED, Rosella O, Muir JG, Gibson PR. "No effects of gluten in patients with self-reported non-celiac gluten sensitivity after dietary reduction of fermentable, poorly absorbed, short-chain carbohydrates." Gastroenterology. 2013 Aug;145(2):320-8.e1-3. doi: 10.1053/j.gastro.2013.04.051. Epub 2013 May 4.
Source: Biesiekierski JR, Muir JG, Gibson PR. "Is gluten a cause of gastrointestinal symptoms in people without celiac disease?" Curr Allergy Asthma Rep. 2013 Dec;13(6):631-8. doi: 10.1007/s11882-013-0386-4.
*Section updated 5/15 to reflect Dr. Biesiekierski's new position.
**Section updated 5/16 to clarify that all of the subjects fulfilled the diagnostic criteria for NCGS.
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Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Meechel17 said:
I thought there would be people on here who would like to read this and comment on it.
More "gluten is safe" propaganda...
My initial thoughts:
-I would like to know exactly what they were eating
-There wasn't a long enough period of time OFF gluten to be able to discern a difference
-What scientific data was being measured other than study members' reporting of gi distress, etc. Like, what exactly were they checking for in the urine and fecal samples?

Interesting study, thanks for posting!

I agree, there are several provlems involved, some of which you already mentioned (one week of gluten-free is not enough).

Another one is that some of those NCGS subjects may well be sensitive to FODMAPS, which often are reduced when one goes gluten-free. It may well also be that sensitivity to FODMAPS covers a concomitant gluten sensitivity.

In the end I found it always a bit surprising to what length science is willing to go to disprove NCGS. Well, maybe I'm not really surprised. But it works for me, in fact I feel like for me going gluten-free was the most beneficial step of all dietary changes that I subjected myself to.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also, keep in mind that many who are benefiting from a grain-free diet, do not necessarily have predominantly gastrointestinal reactions to gluten. This thread and the Life Without Bread thread is full of data about the benefits and mechanisms of avoiding gluten/grains (also dairy/casein). It's actually been studied and known about for decades, yet it is not good for powerful interests for this to become even more widely known. It is a fact that all the "diseases of civilization" started with agriculture and grain consumption....
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

SeekinTruth said:
Also, keep in mind that many who are benefiting from a grain-free diet, do not necessarily have predominantly gastrointestinal reactions to gluten. This thread and the Life Without Bread thread is full of data about the benefits and mechanisms of avoiding gluten/grains (also dairy/casein). It's actually been studied and known about for decades, yet it is not good for powerful interests for this to become even more widely known. It is a fact that all the "diseases of civilization" started with agriculture and grain consumption....
Yeah, veering off the diet into grain, sugar and allergens doesn't really give me any noticeable GI pain/distress. I instead suffer psychological problems in the vein of ADD and intense and unfounded anxieties. The problem with these symptoms is they can creep up on you gradually, and if I'm not paying particular attention, the alarm bells only ring when it's too late to easily change course and fix the situation.

That said, I did have a bout of intense GI issues for a period of a few weeks during my college times. I had sharp piercing GI pain and mucus-like stools. The docs didn't know what to make of it and it somehow resolved after they severed my appendix. I figure the GI problems arises in situations where "the straw breaks the camel's back", ie. an overload of toxicity. This is definitely compounded (this one is a pretty big straw, too) by emotional repression (more toxicity) as outlined in The Body Says No by Gabor Mate. After that incident did I venture on my journey researching the diets here, starting with the Ultra Simple Diet, and now settled into the Keto diet. It's not perfect but I feel much more stable in mood. And that is no small feat I think.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yeah, inflammation and other problems can be anywhere in the body, beetlemaniac. Even if there are problems being caused in the GI tract, there isn't always obvious symptoms. Plus the problem of grains and casein/dairy and opiate like substances that bind to the opiate receptors throw many monkey wrenches into physical and mental health....
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have been cutting my carbs down, adding organ meats, making fat bombs and supplementing. But I think I am not taking in enough sodium right now. I have not found a good broth cube brand, does any body have recommendations? I don't think I can make the bone broth right now because of my busy schedule and it seems challenging. I was thinking that it would be OK to drink salted water(0.5 - 1 teaspoon a day/spread through out the day) ,along with liberally salting my food. That would be enough to meet my required sodium intake. Does that sound reasonable? I don't think it should be a problem if you use good salt and can tolerate it?

Sorry if this a no brainier but all the low carb/keto advocates seem to just recommend just salting food and drinking broth. Maybe I should just suck it up and make the bone broth?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

AD said:
I have been cutting my carbs down, adding organ meats, making fat bombs and supplementing. But I think I am not taking in enough sodium right now. I have not found a good broth cube brand, does any body have recommendations? I don't think I can make the bone broth right now because of my busy schedule and it seems challenging. I was thinking that it would be OK to drink salted water(0.5 - 1 teaspoon a day/spread through out the day) ,along with liberally salting my food. That would be enough to meet my required sodium intake. Does that sound reasonable? I don't think it should be a problem if you use good salt and can tolerate it?

Sorry if this a no brainier but all the low carb/keto advocates seem to just recommend just salting food and drinking broth. Maybe I should just suck it up and make the bone broth?

Suck it up and make the bone broth ;) easy way to get all the electrolytes in and the salt. :)
I think Laura recommends 1tsp of salt water in the morning, I can't remember the exact measurement.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

AD said:
I have been cutting my carbs down, adding organ meats, making fat bombs and supplementing. But I think I am not taking in enough sodium right now. I have not found a good broth cube brand, does any body have recommendations? I don't think I can make the bone broth right now because of my busy schedule and it seems challenging. I was thinking that it would be OK to drink salted water(0.5 - 1 teaspoon a day/spread through out the day) ,along with liberally salting my food. That would be enough to meet my required sodium intake. Does that sound reasonable? I don't think it should be a problem if you use good salt and can tolerate it?

Sorry if this a no brainier but all the low carb/keto advocates seem to just recommend just salting food and drinking broth. Maybe I should just suck it up and make the bone broth?

Sounds like your shifting to a great diet there AD. The bone broth will definitely top it all off :)!

I have salt water very regularly, it can wake you up in the morning or when you feel a mild headache coming on. So go ahead! If you feel a little burning feeling in your stomach, its most likely too much salt in one go. I just add a pinch to a glass of water through out the day and the taste isnt the worst after awhile.
Make sure you get a good quality natural salt if your going to be using it frequently for supplementation and adding to food.

The broth doesnt actually take much effort, its just locating some good bones and chucking them in the slow cooker when you find time... Then get back on with life while it does its magic. It can either be left in to take from directly, or in the past i bin the bones and empty the liquid into a container. Once it has gone cool, you can fridge it and it sets into a jelly with fat on top texture. Then you can just take one or two spoon fulls, and add it to boiling water like a cup of tea. Choosing herbs/salt/vinegar variations can make it really delicious. It can even be made to taste like lovely minted gravy! :wow:
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

AD said:
I have been cutting my carbs down, adding organ meats, making fat bombs and supplementing. But I think I am not taking in enough sodium right now. I have not found a good broth cube brand, does any body have recommendations? I don't think I can make the bone broth right now because of my busy schedule and it seems challenging. I was thinking that it would be OK to drink salted water(0.5 - 1 teaspoon a day/spread through out the day) ,along with liberally salting my food. That would be enough to meet my required sodium intake. Does that sound reasonable? I don't think it should be a problem if you use good salt and can tolerate it?

Sorry if this a no brainier but all the low carb/keto advocates seem to just recommend just salting food and drinking broth. Maybe I should just suck it up and make the bone broth?

Hello AD , the recommendation to eat a little more sodium is because in ketosis, the cells tend to dehydrate, then sodium helps in the Fluid retention, some people experience cramping due to sodium deficiency, you can start experimenting with 1 teaspoon and see how you feel throughout the day, and adjust the amount in case of any imbalance, it is also important to remember that sodium and potassium are competing to enter cells, are currently taking any potassium supplement? other aspects are the quality of the salt that is consumed, the amount of water you drink throughout the day, if you do exercise regularly, the goal is to balance electrolytes.
just my thoughts :flowers:
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Huxley said:
The broth doesnt actually take much effort, its just locating some good bones and chucking them in the slow cooker when you find time... Then get back on with life while it does its magic. It can either be left in to take from directly, or in the past i bin the bones and empty the liquid into a container. Once it has gone cool, you can fridge it and it sets into a jelly with fat on top texture. Then you can just take one or two spoon fulls, and add it to boiling water like a cup of tea. Choosing herbs/salt/vinegar variations can make it really delicious. It can even be made to taste like lovely minted gravy! :wow:

Yes, if you're really busy and don't want to monitor a stock pot, the slow cooker is the best. They're not expensive. There an 8qt (7.5 lt) on Amazon for around $35. It can hold some sizable bones.

http://www.amazon.com/Crock-Pot-SCV700SS-7-Quart-Manual-Stainless/dp/B003OAJGJO/ref=sr_1_7?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1440540029&sr=1-7&keywords=crock+pots
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

herondancer said:
Huxley said:
The broth doesnt actually take much effort, its just locating some good bones and chucking them in the slow cooker when you find time... Then get back on with life while it does its magic. It can either be left in to take from directly, or in the past i bin the bones and empty the liquid into a container. Once it has gone cool, you can fridge it and it sets into a jelly with fat on top texture. Then you can just take one or two spoon fulls, and add it to boiling water like a cup of tea. Choosing herbs/salt/vinegar variations can make it really delicious. It can even be made to taste like lovely minted gravy! :wow:

Yes, if you're really busy and don't want to monitor a stock pot, the slow cooker is the best. They're not expensive. There an 8qt (7.5 lt) on Amazon for around $35. It can hold some sizable bones.

http://www.amazon.com/Crock-Pot-SCV700SS-7-Quart-Manual-Stainless/dp/B003OAJGJO/ref=sr_1_7?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1440540029&sr=1-7&keywords=crock+pots
I think they're great because the food you cook does not come into contact with any metal. Since reading about high iron level risks I have become more aware at how impossible it is to eat food that contains no iron. In my battle to decrease iron intake as much as possible I think ceramic/glass dishes help. FWIW
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Lilyalic said:
Suck it up and make the bone broth ;) easy way to get all the electrolytes in and the salt. :)
I think Laura recommends 1tsp of salt water in the morning, I can't remember the exact measurement.


Yes the 1tsp a day of extra salt seems reasonable. I will take this much maybe a bit more on the days I work out. Until I start making the broth. Was mainly scared of taking too much of it but considering most people get their salt from processed foods, we need to supplement it once we start eating clean.

herondancer said:
Huxley said:
The broth doesnt actually take much effort, its just locating some good bones and chucking them in the slow cooker when you find time... Then get back on with life while it does its magic. It can either be left in to take from directly, or in the past i bin the bones and empty the liquid into a container. Once it has gone cool, you can fridge it and it sets into a jelly with fat on top texture. Then you can just take one or two spoon fulls, and add it to boiling water like a cup of tea. Choosing herbs/salt/vinegar variations can make it really delicious. It can even be made to taste like lovely minted gravy! :wow:

Yes, if you're really busy and don't want to monitor a stock pot, the slow cooker is the best. They're not expensive. There an 8qt (7.5 lt) on Amazon for around $35. It can hold some sizable bones.

http://www.amazon.com/Crock-Pot-SCV700SS-7-Quart-Manual-Stainless/dp/B003OAJGJO/ref=sr_1_7?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1440540029&sr=1-7&keywords=crock+pots

Sounds good Huxley! Funny herondancer after looking at the page I realized my mother has one in the kitchen! It has some bread crumbs in it so I will give it a good clean and use it. Now I have no excuses!


riclapaz said:
Hello AD , the recommendation to eat a little more sodium is because in ketosis, the cells tend to dehydrate, then sodium helps in the Fluid retention, some people experience cramping due to sodium deficiency, you can start experimenting with 1 teaspoon and see how you feel throughout the day, and adjust the amount in case of any imbalance, it is also important to remember that sodium and potassium are competing to enter cells, are currently taking any potassium supplement? other aspects are the quality of the salt that is consumed, the amount of water you drink throughout the day, if you do exercise regularly, the goal is to balance electrolytes.
just my thoughts :flowers:

Yes riclapaz I am supplementing with magnesium and potassium. I use either Celtic sea salt or Himalaya salt so that should be good. I will make sure to drink enough water.

Much appreciated for the help!
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

About the morning salt water : If I recall correctly Laura has indicated the use of something called sole water (or something like that). You put some salt in a bottle of water, you wait for 24 hours. If there is no visible salt at the bottom of the bottle you add more salt and repeat the process till you can see some salt at the bottom of the bottle. Now you have your sole water. You put a spoon of it in a cup and add water to the top and drink it immediately. You do that first thing in the morning every day and that is suppose do help you retain salt in the body through all the day.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

About the bone broth, yes, there have been some really involved recipes for it, but all I do is put 2 -3 pounds of bones in a dutch oven and put it on low heat and let it cook for 24 hours or so. If you don't trust leaving it on the stove, then, as has been suggested, getting a slow cooker is the way to go. But be sure that it is one that the temperature on low is really "low". There has been a lot of discussion on different slow cookers on Amazon and they tell if the slow cooker really has a low setting.

I don't need - and can't tolerate - a lot of the stuff others are putting in their bone broth. I'm only interested in the goodies gotten out of the bones anyways. So it is as simple as putting bones in a pan, filling the pan up with water and simmering.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Nienna said:
I don't need - and can't tolerate - a lot of the stuff others are putting in their bone broth. I'm only interested in the goodies gotten out of the bones anyways. So it is as simple as putting bones in a pan, filling the pan up with water and simmering.

That's the way we do it, too - just bones and water and you're off to the races. I find the broth doesn't need really long cook times, either, despite what some people recommend. Anything over 24 hours and I find it doesn't gel in the fridge. Chicken broth needs even less time; around 12 hours dies the trick.
 
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