Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Sunflower]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I disagree that ‘all animals suffer’ in order to become our food. We run a non-GMO and soy free farm with pastured hogs, free range hens for eggs and grass fed/finished beef. Our animals are bred and born on our farm, so we know exactly what they are fed and how they are treated. The animals are happy and healthy, voiding any need for vaccines, hormones and antibiotics. We have a few ‘former vegans/vegetarians’ as customers now, because their DOCTOR told them they needed to eat meat to get healthy. We also have a few customers who have vowed never to eat meat again after having seen videos of the horrible CAFOs. And they eat our meat products because they know that the animals were treated with the utmost respect, up to and including processing. The processors we use dispatch the animals in a humane fashion; if we find out otherwise, then we would switch processors. The chicken manure is used for fertilizing our chemical free gardens. The cow manure usually stays on the pastures to fertilize the them to grow better grass for the cows. The hog manure eventually gets broken down and actually encourages native specie vegetation in the areas where the hogs roam, so they eat healthy as well when they return to that paddock. Our animals have only ‘one bad day’, and that is a good day for us, so that we can be nourished to be able to provide healthy, chemical free food to surrounding folks. That is the ‘process’ on our farm, and I’m sure many, many other farms treat their animals with the utmost respect as we do ours. So, please, don’t put a negative blanket statement on all who raise animals for us to eat. It simply isn’t so. The Vegetarian Myth is a great book to with which to start. It’s easy reading, not complicated by a bunch of scientific terms, but gets the point across rather well.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Cat,

To me it seems that you have made up your mind and that you are not amenable to any arguments from our side. You also don't seem to want to read any of the books that have been proposed.

Of course that is your prerogative, but then I think you might want to find another platform where you can discuss what is close to your heart with likeminded folks. I sure won't change my eating habits as I have researched this quite extensively and for my body it is simply the best way. And for my mind as well, for that matter.

Sure there is a lot of things that are wrong on planet earth - you listed many of them in one of your previous posts. We can all agree on that - but to me it seems like you are "stuck" with vegetarianism.

We are all on the path we believe is the best one. You just seem to be on a different one.

All the best on yours.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It is said that farming is harming the planet. Lets really take stock of what is 'harming' the planet and how it relates to 4D STO candidate.

1. Fossil fuels. Don't hear anyone giving up their cars...yet. If I was kicking up a fuss for that, would you go to the 'C's and see if they would say to stop driving your cars because it is causing harm to the planet? Eating flesh is much higher on your want list.

Petroleum products are a HUGE part of agriculture. Stop drilling for oil, no food.

2. Farming also includes animal husbandry and the harm that does to the planet is egregious. Swine flu, avian flu, mass and I mean mass culling of pigs and birds in the millions at a time, buried alive.

That is mainly due to the loss of habitat caused by massive stripping of the planet's "skin" for rapacious agriculture.

3. Global warming.... animal farming people? Anyone research that? In all fairness, there is so much crap out there one can't define totally if global warming is due to us, part of us or a natural phenomenom.

Very small percentage due to humans; large percentage due to Earth Changes in progress.

4. Industry alone that dumps toxic wastes into the water system and land.

Most toxic wastes in water are due to agriculture.

5. Pollution to the oceans. Anyone research that? It is insane.

Most pollution that goes into the oceans is due to agriculture.

6. Fluoride in the water. Do any of you take precautions against this? Our water system is tainted on purpose.

We recommend using water distillers, among other things. You obviously didn't read up very much of what is discussed on this forum before you launched your salvo. I'm embarrassed for you.

7. The 'control system' has over run everything pretty much and that includes squeezing out the local little independent farmer to big corporate farms that don't give a ratz azz about the earth. It is all about the money. Organic farming replenishes the earth which cares about the soil and is sustainability instead of assaulting it with pesticides and herbicides. Organic farms are under attack by the government. Do you shop organically?

The main thing that keeps "organic farming" going is animal products added back to the soil. Do yourself a favor and read "The Vegetarian Myth".

8. Animal slaughter houses pool the waste...blood into large cesspools. I have visions of lizzies/greys bathing in it. Lets keep the blood flowing. For those of you who say, well I buy organic flesh, or I treat my animals well before I kill them.... there is no such thing humane killing. If someone stole your daughter, raped and killed her and then learn the killer was real nice to her at first. He wined and dined her, bought her flowers, treated her with dignity and respect...up until he raped and killed her,.... would that make a difference? Isn't that the 'mark' of a psychopath?

Paramoralism and comparing apples to oranges. Use of paramoralisms is a rhetorical technique of pathological types.

Lets look at those who in the slaughter houses who do the dirty work. They kill animals with impunity, day and night for their pay check. Now, aren't we supporting psychopaths? Lets look at the animal raising,..... those who profit from the deaths of animals. Could these people too be those organic portals, those psychopaths who do this line of work? You want to support that? !!! Nobody has said that growing vegetables and fruit is murder. Now that is just plain ridiculous.

Do we get out in the wild, and like an wolf, run down our prey, launch onto it with our teeth directed at the neck, bring it down, rip open the neck and kill? Do we eat the hair, skin, flesh, organs and gnaw on bones.... all raw to sustain ourselves?

Paramoralism and comparing apples to oranges. Use of paramoralisms is a rhetorical technique of pathological types.

9. Man's own 'foot print'. Garbage.... trillions of tons of garbage? Research that.

We do. Obviously, you hate humanity and hate being human. Well, all I can say is that this is "the way down". Enjoy your path.

10. Oil spills a plenty in the oceans.

Indeed. All part of the increasing demand for oil in order to sustain agriculture.

11. Animal farming is not sustainable....period. Research it. Government (which is the peoples money) injects a lot of money to keep this ugly going and is sucking the life out of the planet.

Wrong.

It appears you base the continuance of the horror to animals based on one frick'n book. You have to read a lot of material to get a better perspective. The C's give bits and pieces of information on specific things but you never get the whole picture. You have to research, you have to read, you have to look deeper...and not take their word for anything. How many times have we heard this? I could go on.

Thankfully you didn't. Loada paramoralistic nonsense.

Paramoralism and comparing apples to oranges. Use of paramoralisms is a rhetorical technique of pathological types.

What I've learned, if the government is behind it, like hunting wolves and other wildlife, monsanto evil seeds program, animal slaughter for food, that adds up to 4D STS agenda. Think, why would the seeds be corrupted? Why is Bill Gates building a state of the art ark for seeds?

Paramoralism and comparing apples to oranges. Use of paramoralisms is a rhetorical technique of pathological types.

Look at the big picture. When a people just look at one aspect that endorses the predator agenda, I ain't buying it. I also figure that this meat eating addiction, this unwillingingness to change to a peaceful response to how we cause harm, violence to animals begs analysis. When we just leave wildlife alone, natural law takes over with their natural cycle. We can even look at the allegorical story of Adam and Eve when she ate the apple, they didn't choose eating the pig.

Paramoralism and comparing apples to oranges. Use of paramoralisms is a rhetorical technique of pathological types.

Someone responded to one of my comments that I said, the animals are here with us, not for us....and their response was what made me think the animals weren't here for us? In response to that, what makes you think that we aren't here for the animals. Dominion doesn't mean abuse and murder.

I look at history, how religion was recreated, Yahweh is the 'devil' and incorporated the sacrifice of animals, the drinking of blood and the eating of flesh, bow down to him and worship him. Yet, here we are supporting the sacrifice of animals, the drinking of their blood and eating of their flesh through our meals. What is the difference?

I do the opposite of what the predator lizzy do to the best of my ability. I distance myself as much as possible from their behavior to protect myself. If the lizzies are doing it, I am not. Again, do the least amount of harm.

Even if the eating of flesh somehow assists in our vibration, I wouldn't use that method because it is wrong to harm. The C's also said the eating of flesh isn't the only path. They are stating facts, not moral or ethical attributes. I'd question anything that supports a method to higher density with the use of harm. Is it ok to kill animals because you are going to get something. Isn't that STS thinking?

Don't support commercial farming, buy locally. Lots of organic products online. There are very few organic soy producers but one I like is Laura's Soybeans. So many choices for good, healthy, organic products that don't include animals. I've been vegan for a long time. I will NOT do harm to animals and just because one person wrote a book to sway you from this is egregious. One book.... please. I've done my research, you do yours.

Critical thinking.....

I've rarely read a more loaded paramoralistic discourse than all of your posts put together. Allow me to invite you to frequent vegan forums or Buddhist forums where you should feel right at home and won't be wasting our time.

 

[Beau]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

In case Cat misses it, I want to cross-post from another thread something that should open your eyes, if you are still reading:

I think that given Cat's very firm (and quite rude) attitude, it may be hard to have a rational discussion here. We have heard these arguments many times, and we're still to see someone who can share that famous mountain of evidence regarding the benefits of vegetarianism and veganism for the body and the planet.

Lierre Keith has even more explanations, and a lot of research to back her claims. But this article is also quite interesting and should be obvious, but apparently it isn't.

The Myth of the Ethical 'Vegan'
Ward M. Clark

Ethical vegans allow themselves a pretense of moral and ethical superiority with no real effort.

Veganism dates back to 1944, when British Vegan Society co-founder Donald Watson coined the term to mean "non-dairy vegetarian." The Society expanded the definition in 1951 to state that "man should live without exploiting animals." Vegans eschew animal products in food, clothing, household products, or for any other reason.

There are a variety of reasons why people "go vegan." Some simply don't like the taste of meat. Some claim veganism is "green," and that a vegan lifestyle minimizes impact on the environment.

In 1997, a survey revealed three percent of the people in the U.S. claimed that they had not used animals for any purpose in the previous two years. Rutgers School of Law professor Gary Francione argued in 2010 that "all sentient beings should have at least one right - the right not to be treated as property."

Do ethical vegans live up to this stated standard? Do their actions live up to their own stated ethical principle, that animals have the right not to be treated as property? Do their actions really result in zero animal use? The parallel in human terms would be slavery, which no rational person thinks is ethically acceptable. Slaves are the property of masters; they live and die at their owner's sufferance.

Unfortunately for the ethical vegan, the production of their food alone reduces their claim to impossibility. Animals are killed in untold millions, in the course of plant agriculture. Some are killed accidentally in the course of mechanized farming; some are killed deliberately in the course of pest control. Animals are killed, every day. Every potato, every stick of celery, every cup of rice, and every carrot has a blood trail leading from field to plate.

In 1999, while researching and writing Misplaced Compassion, I ran into a rice farmer who posted the following first-hand account on a Usenet forum:

[A] conservative annualized estimate of vertebrate deaths in organic rice farming is ~20 pound. ... [T]his works out a bit less than two vertebrate deaths per square foot, and, again, is conservative. For conventionally grown rice, the gross body-count is at least several times that figure. ... [W]hen cutting the rice, there is a (visual) green waterfall of frogs and anoles moving in front of the combine. Sometimes the "waterfall" is just a gentle trickle (± 10,000 frogs per acre) crossing the header, total for both cuttings, other times it is a deluge (+50,000 acre).

My own family was involved in corn and soybean farming; our numbers were not that high, but they were not inconsiderable. Pheasants and rabbits are routinely killed in planting and harvesting, and rodents are killed by the thousands using traps and pesticides at every step: production, storage, and transportation.

Rational people know this and don't worry about it. It's an inevitable consequence of modern, high-production agriculture. The ethical vegan, when confronted with these undeniable facts, collapses. Their reaction, in almost every case, is to do a rhetorical lateral arabesque into a new claim, that their vegan diet somehow causes "less death and suffering" than a non-vegan diet, a ridiculous and unsupportable argument. A pound of wild venison (net cost in animal death: about 1/120th of one animal) almost certainly causes less "death and suffering" than a pound of rice (net cost in animal death: including rodents, insect, reptiles and amphibians, number of deaths may range into the hundreds).

But the numbers don't really matter. Not if there is a real ethical principle involved. What is at the heart of this fall-back argument is this claim: That a vegan diet has a lower cost in animal death and suffering than any non-vegan diet.

If any ethical vegan has crunched the numbers to prove this, I have yet to see the results. However, the numbers have been crunched elsewhere, and it turns out that a non-vegan diet may well cause less environmental impact than a vegan diet, for one reason: Food for livestock can be grown on land that is too poor for growing crops for human consumption.

If there was an actual ethical principle involved, the ethical vegan would be required to do one of two things:

- To analyze each of his or her sources of vegetable food and eat only those which are found to cause the least amount of animals to die.

- Move off the grid and grow all of their own food, scrupulously using no insecticides, no rodent control measures, and no mechanized equipment.

Note that it is only the second path that has a chance of actually accomplishing zero animal deaths.

In reality, ethical vegans do none of these things. In the real world, the ethical vegan has no idea - none at all - whether their diet causes more animals to die, the same number, or fewer, than a diet which includes meat. Even when they engage in a completely irrational search for micrograms of animal material in their diet (I know of one vegan who refuses to eat black olives because squid ink is used in part to color them) their actions are purely symbolic; they have no idea what their real impact is. Instead, they obsess over micrograms of animal products in their food while ignoring the metric tons of animal life destroyed to bring that food to the table.

An ethical principle is usually a pretty simple thing. If the willful murder of another human is wrong, then it is wrong in every circumstance. Ethical vegans claim that taking the life of non-human animals is wrong, but their actions do not live up to the claim; indeed, they don't even try. The ethical vegan follows no ethical principle. Instead, they follow a simple, easy, results-neutral, and ethically indifferent rule: Do not put animal parts in your mouth. It allows them a pretense of moral and ethical superiority with no real effort; it is a cheap and easy pose, nothing more.

In fact, ethical vegans exhibit a stunning and savage hypocrisy. Ethical vegans, as a class, fail utterly to put any of their professed ethics into action. They claim to not cause harm to animals, but they do; when confronted, they claim to cause less harm to animals than the non-vegan, but they are utterly unable to show that to be true, and are willing to take no real effort to even quantify their impact. They are intimately involved, every day, in an activity that causes the deaths of millions of animals, and they do nothing about it.

Ward M. Clark is a Colorado-based freelance writer and consultant who has followed and written about the animal rights movement for over thirty years.

And Cat, if you are sincere about wanting to at least check out this information, I recommend that you check this out:
Lierre Keith on 'The Vegetarian Myth - Food, Justice and Sustainability'

If after reading this and watching those videos you still want to make this sort of claim:

If that is the case, lets start killing our children, our babies, our neighbours and start a big barbeque. Meat is meat. Ya... lets evolve.

Then, we definitely live in different realities.

 

[Alana]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well, if eating meat is the way, lets start killing our neighbours, our children... we must evolve on the blood of man...and animals.

Meat is meat, blood is blood, suffering is suffering. Does this sound like a lizzie agenda? It sure does to me.

You agree with me but dismiss me. What is up with that?

Yes, we have choices .... I made mine at 5 years old.

Cat, your posts are now under moderation. If you are willing to do the reading and have an adult conversation instead of accusing the members here of being proponents of murder and torture and having a lizzie agenda then those posts will be approved.

 

[Buddy]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Perhaps Cat would consider the usefulness of studying the issue from other angles as well? Maybe bolster that case a bit with explanations of why so many bone records of groups of humans in the transition period to agriculture show increases in malnutrition along with an expected rise in infectious diseases?

Or maybe look into some accounts of the anatomical structural differences between homo sapiens and all the other homos that got beat out to dominate the planet - like why the hips are counter-rotational, the large gap between the ribs and pelvis, the small stomach with plumbing that's much to short to be digesting grasses primarily composed of cellulose which we cannot digest at all.

Maybe we also kinda out-sourced a lot of the digestion work to meat sources that feed on grass. Maybe we also out-sourced more digestive work to bacteria which live in our gut in a symbiotic relationship. Maybe there are other examples that can be uncovered by even more research and then effectively countered?

Heck, maybe there's a bunch of stuff to check out that might bolster a case for veganism or such if someone would apply even more critical thinking on the issue? :)

 

[zak]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

We are being 'raised' on planet earth for food for the lizzies? Are you being treated well? They want to keep us in lockdown and control us, just the way you kindly expressed you raise your pigs.

Are we all blind? What we do to animals is what the lizzies are doing to us?

As I mentioned in another comment, could it be a test from the C's to see if we learned anything? Im not that gullable. Not anymore. If we don't like 3D, are sick of being controlled and used as food for 4D STS beings, then how different are we from them?

I hate 3D. I won't participate in the predator relationship with man or animals. That I have learned in a hardcore way.

If I don't graduate to 4D because of my rebelling against hurting animals AND eating them *gross*... something is really wrong with this picture here. Does common sense dictate?

I'm sovereign. I have choices. This is one choice I stick to with reverence. I won't cause harm.

Well, if eating meat is the way, lets start killing our neighbours, our children... we must evolve on the blood of man...and animals.


Meat is meat, blood is blood, suffering is suffering. Does this sound like a lizzie agenda? It sure does to me.

You agree with me but dismiss me. What is up with that?

Yes, we have choices .... I made mine at 5 years old.

Cat you're remind me a quote of Bruce Lee:

"Hoping that good things will happen to you
because you are a good person is like hoping
the tiger won't eat you because you're a vegetarian"

 

[lainey]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Meat is meat, blood is blood, suffering is suffering.

And subjective is subjective?

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

A very interesting article in connection with recent discussions on SOTT I read this morning:
http://www.sott.net/article/298572-Plants-react-to-the-sound-of-being-eaten-alive

This has some fascinating details about plants not wanting to be eaten, and it's only talking about protecting the leaves from being eaten, whereas plants' defenses are generally MUCH more aggressive when it comes to protecting their seeds/future generations.

 

[ines]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thank you all for the research, investigation & commitment!

Want you to report my experiences with the ketogenic diet.

After studying the lecture from the Dietresearch of the sott team by gabriela segura M.D. (link:http://docs.google.com/document/d/1tJMeWDrRBii6VWhB_Iy2nWJqnxrhz70VvFuH7j-SZO4/mobilebasic ) i started in November 2014).
I was addicted to sugar and carbohydrates for many years...and a vegetarian for too long :) .

I am now free of any hunger for sweets & carbohydrates since approximately one month.
For me almost unbelievable!

I had many cheat-days in the last 7 months, cravings nearly every week.
To have the facts on mind of why i am doing this and that this nutrition really is an optimal fuel for my body, helped me Thanks again for the manuscript!)
And that it could be dangerous if i mix many fat with a lot of carbohydrates restricted the cheating and allowed me to just go on and follow my goal against the struggles (in form of cravings and the selfmade cakes of my mother f.e.).
Also the picture of the will as a muscle that can grow with persistance helped me :) .
So my adaptation needed some time.

The first month i experienced headaches and stomach aches.
I Was constipated for ~ 2 month .
The counting of fat, protein & carbohydrates was just in the beginning needed and a bit challenging but you got an eye for it .


Now i have more energy, no cravings, not tired if i have to get up early in the morning (is that really me ? - i do not remember that i was ever so fit in the morning! )


(Hope not to have hijacked the earlier discussion but thougt that this is an appropriate thread to post this)

 

[patty2292]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thank you all for the research, investigation & commitment!

Want you to report my experiences with the ketogenic diet.

After studying the lecture from the Dietresearch of the sott team by gabriela segura M.D. (link:http://docs.google.com/document/d/1tJMeWDrRBii6VWhB_Iy2nWJqnxrhz70VvFuH7j-SZO4/mobilebasic ) i started in November 2014).
I was addicted to sugar and carbohydrates for many years...and a vegetarian for too long :) .

I am now free of any hunger for sweets & carbohydrates since approximately one month.
For me almost unbelievable!

I had many cheat-days in the last 7 months, cravings nearly every week.
To have the facts on mind of why i am doing this and that this nutrition really is an optimal fuel for my body, helped me Thanks again for the manuscript!)
And that it could be dangerous if i mix many fat with a lot of carbohydrates restricted the cheating and allowed me to just go on and follow my goal against the struggles (in form of cravings and the selfmade cakes of my mother f.e.).
Also the picture of the will as a muscle that can grow with persistance helped me :) .
So my adaptation needed some time.

The first month i experienced headaches and stomach aches.
I Was constipated for ~ 2 month .
The counting of fat, protein & carbohydrates was just in the beginning needed and a bit challenging but you got an eye for it .


Now i have more energy, no cravings, not tired if i have to get up early in the morning (is that really me ? - i do not remember that i was ever so fit in the morning! )


(Hope not to have hijacked the earlier discussion but thougt that this is an appropriate thread to post this)

ines thats really great to hear! It sounds like your really putting some will into sticking with this. And i fully agree that gaining knowledge and the background of why we are doing the things we do is very vital, and motivates us tenfold!

At the start of the diet it is very normal to have the symptoms you described, as your starting to digest some new whole foods and slowly cutting out the previous addictions that cause a sort of withdrawal. So this is where the slip ups can happen, but never stress about that. If it happens, it happens. Try to notice what the effects are and how you react to this previously tolerated food for future reference. Maybe look at why you wanted the sugary snack in the first place, dissociation, stress, hungry etc.

But its good to hear the diet is working for you, and providing you with the energy to get out of bed in the morning ;D

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yeah, thanks for sharing your experiences, ines; and glad to hear the ketogenic diet is working out for you. Another member on the way to being fully keto adapted. :)

 

[zak]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thank you ines not for your own investigation and your commitment
to put in practise the Keto Diet and despite your cravings to arrive where
you are now.
Thank you for sharing with us your Work, your Networking ! ;)

glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=527&lsel=N

 

[ines]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for your replies.


A good pointer Huxley, to get knowledge of why I would like to crave for something known as unhealthy to me, if another craving-situation should resurface (bolded Part) . I thought about what benefit could come from this pointer and I think that it is maybe easier to do otherwise (to not crave) if you can adress the source and see if it is just a longing for something other and so to acknowledge that , with simultaneously knowing what the best fuel for the body is and just provide it with it. But please correct me if you meant it not this way) :

At the start of the diet it is very normal to have the symptoms you described, as your starting to digest some new whole foods and slowly cutting out the previous addictions that cause a sort of withdrawal. So this is where the slip ups can happen, but never stress about that. If it happens, it happens. Try to notice what the effects are and how you react to this previously tolerated food for future reference. Maybe look at why you wanted the sugary snack in the first place, dissociation, stress, hungry etc.

I realized by and by that I often craved or felt the urge to crave a big amount of something full of addictive sugar when I felt feelings of lonelyness, emptyness or dissatisfaction and in stressful situations.


But , if i now provide myself with enough fat, i rarely get hungry.
And it is not that longing-hunger.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I realized by and by that I often craved or felt the urge to crave a big amount of something full of addictive sugar when I felt feelings of lonelyness, emptyness or dissatisfaction and in stressful situations.

I think most of us do or have done this to some extent or another. Sugary foods provide a big temporary neurochemical boost to make us feel better, but it is good to remember that there is always a 'crash' on the other side where we will still feel the initial discomfort, and on top of it the even worse after-effects of unhealthy food (brain fog, depression, hopelessness).