Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

With the studies that Weston A. Price did, I was always a little confused about how he found some isolated communities eating decidedly "non-paleo" foods and still thriving with little to any detrement to their health. The Scottish coastal peoples he visited for instance basically ate dairy products and oats. They had some root veggies, some fish, shellfish and seaweeds as well as some wild game, but the bulk of their diet was oats, a grain, and dairy. They weren't anywhere near low carb, I wouldn't think, yet their health would be enviable to any westerner, then or now.

But if you bring in the mitochondrial issue, it makes a little more sense. They were living a pristine existence compared to us. They essentially had no toxicity to deal with and I imagine their emotional stress was low. Maybe their diet wasn't ideal (we know it wasn't), but in such clean conditions, with cellular function at its optimum, you could get away with "less than ideal" and it wouldn't cause the whole system to sink into the depths of chronic disease.

I would add a couple of things. The oats they had probably have little resemblance to that we have today (after much hybridizing and tweeking for yield). Also the folks back then had no EMF exposure - a totally new stressor in the current time.

Very true, on both counts. Another consideration.

[quote author=LQB]
On the Scottish Highlanders. the current WAPF Journal says: http://www.westonaprice.org/notes-from-yesteryear/the-mighty-highlanders
{snip}
[/quote]

I think we're talking about two different things here. I went back to Weston A. Price's 'Nutrition and Physical Degeneration' and read the relevant chapter (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html#ch4). Here he was studying the people who populated isolated Islands of the Outer Hebrides. These people basically ate oats and fish, some of them eating dairy but many having little access to it because of the lack of pasture land on the rocky islands. It's a really interesting chapter and worth a read (actually the whole book is worth a read, although I admit I've never tackled it in its entirety. It's available in full at the link above.)

Here's a snippet:

In Fig. 6 (lower left) is a young girl from the Isle of Bardsey. She is about seventeen years of age. Her teeth were wrecked with dental caries, the disease involving even the front teeth. We ate a meal at the home in which she was living. It consisted of white bread, butter and jam, all imported to the island. This is in striking contrast with the picture of the girl shown in Fig. 6 (lower right) living in the Isle of Lewis, in the central area. She has splendidly formed dental arches and a high immunity to tooth decay. Her diet and that of her parents was oatmeal porridge and oatcake and fish which built stalwart people. The change in the two generations was illustrated by a little girl and her grandfather on the Isle of Skye. He was the product of the old régime, and about eighty years of age. He was carrying the harvest from the fields on his back when I stopped him to take his picture. He was typical of the stalwart product raised on the native foods. His granddaughter had pinched nostrils and narrowed face. Her dental arches were deformed and her teeth crowded. She was a mouth breather. She had the typical expression of the result of modernization after the parents had adopted the modern foods of commerce, and abandoned the oatcake, oatmeal porridge and sea foods.

{...}

A dietary program competent to build stalwart men and women and rugged boys and girls is provided the residents of these barren Islands, with their wind and storm-swept coasts, by a diet of oats used as oatcake and oatmeal porridge; together with fish products, including some fish organs and eggs. A seriously degenerated stock followed the displacement of this diet with a typical modern diet consisting of white bread, sugar, jams, syrup, chocolate, coffee, some fish without livers, canned vegetables, and eggs.

Note that the picture of the two men at the top are brothers who ate at the same table all their lives, but the one on the left had a taste for imported jams, sweets and white breads while the brother on the left stuck with the traditional diet. It doesn't get much more telling than that!

 

[LQB]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Dugdeep, I wasn't suggesting your reference to the coastal Scotts was wrong - I was just adding to it with what WAPF just published on the Highlanders. I should have noted that in the first place. :)

 

[Ennio]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The thing with supplements for mitochondrial support and repair, is that if you focus in only one nutrient, you might create an unnecessary imbalance. There are several supplements that have proved to be useful in Parkinson's, but what might work for one person, might not work for another one due to individual genetic glitches.

The protocol in the Ultra Mind Solution underlines the importance of taking several supplements that supply for all the major pathways for mitochondrial dysfunction. I don't know if taking all of them might work for you, instead of focusing in only one or two. They serve as nutrients and antioxidants to protect your mitochondria, but as a combination. For instance,

- D-Ribose, 5 grams a day in powder.
- Acetyl-L-Carnitine, 500 mg twice a day.
- Coenzyme Q10, 100mg a day
- Alpha lipoic acid, 100mg twice a day.
- NADH, 10 mg a day.

Other than magnesium, riboflavin, niacin, and N-acetyl-cysteine as another precursor for glutathione.

Perhaps you can see how it goes with the ketogenic diet, IF and resistance training. And at some point you can try mitochondrial support supplementation and observe very carefully if it works or if it is a setback.

This reminds me of another thing I remember reading by Hyman. In reference to detoxing he made an analogy between supplements and a group of players in a team. A single player, no matter how good, needed his other teammates: he couldn't play alone. There is also the synergistic benefit of taking several supplements that all work on different parts of the whole, so there is that.

Thanks for mentioning these, Psyche. I'll have another look at UMS and maybe what's listed above may be part of a supplemental protocol some time down the road. It would certainly be interesting to see how far I could go without these though so I will definitely be waiting a bit.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think each person must be different. I work out every 2 days, but sometimes I skip an extra day if my body tells me it needs more rest. There isn't much rest over here, because we are having to do lots of work in the house on top of the usual. So, in "crazy" days, I might skip the workout. I think you have to find your own rythm.

As to using every muscle, I do about 7 different exercises. It changes. Some days can be more "lazy" than others, depending on how I feel. Try to find your own pace.

If that works for you, it can be good. I personally find that it works better if I do all repetitions (heaviest, less heavy and lighter) at once, and then rest for 1-2 mins.

Well, maybe we shouldn't trow the baby out with the bath water either. I think the key is to NOT do aerobic repetitions (with too light weights), but the rest depends on each individual. Maybe?

We sort of combined what each of us knew, and with the machines we have. I know Laura and Ark have a specific routine, but some of us just vary exercises.

Again, I doubt there needs to be a specific rule as to how to workout. We just think that heavier weights, rest in between, and rest for at least one day, might be appropriate. But we're still experimenting. ;)

I see, I may be thinking too much about the workout its self. Thanks for the info :)

The issue I'm having is not making any strength gains. I lift the same amount with the same difficulty every week for most exercises. I feel my general fitness is just not as good as it used to be even while eating pasta, milk, protein shakes etc. I am not as strong as I was back when I was eating this stuff, and it feels like more of an effort in general to just ride to work or into town.

Despite this, I have a lot mor energy 'mentally' to get up and get on with my day, interact with people, and read.

Perhaps this will change when I adapt fully, but it just feels like I'm pushing against a wall in terms of physical fitness. I was tempted to have a higher carb day once a week to try and get more glycogen in my muscles, but I think this is outdated thinking, and 'it' was very excited about the prospect, setting off warning bells.

I will continue with low protein for more weeks and see if things stabalise. Only in the past few days I realised I was still eating well over 40g of protein at breakfast, which made me hungry by 11am and without much energy all day. I've reduced the breakfast protein to around 25g and I feel much better and virtually not hungry throughout the day. I can certainly confirm Laura's comments about more protein making you more hungry, this is something I have observed time and time again.

 

[Scottie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The issue I'm having is not making any strength gains. I lift the same amount with the same difficulty every week for most exercises. I feel my general fitness is just not as good as it used to be even while eating pasta, milk, protein shakes etc. I am not as strong as I was back when I was eating this stuff, and it feels like more of an effort in general to just ride to work or into town.

Despite this, I have a lot mor energy 'mentally' to get up and get on with my day, interact with people, and read.

Perhaps this will change when I adapt fully, but it just feels like I'm pushing against a wall in terms of physical fitness. I was tempted to have a higher carb day once a week to try and get more glycogen in my muscles, but I think this is outdated thinking, and 'it' was very excited about the prospect, setting off warning bells.

Well, we're each different, but I'll tell you what happened to me. Your mileage may vary!

I have been working out (the resistance training kind of thing) for years. Before the Paleo diet, I hit a certain amount of weight on the various exercises I do, and I never went any higher.

With Paleo, I hit a new higher plateau, and then it stopped.

With the KD, I have gone up another level very quickly on a few exercises. One specifically is the hamstrings. I could NEVER get over that plateau, until the other day on the KD. Suddenly, I added 10 lbs like it was nothing. On the leg extension (quadriceps), I can't now lift over twice my own weight. I couldn't do that even when I used to be a distance runner w/weight training (but on a high-carb diet, of course).

Like I said, your results may vary, but I think if you're not feeling great while working out, it's best to just take it slowly - and be patient! Your body may be repairing/cleaning itself in various ways. If I feel really tired or weak, I'll even skip my workout and try to do it the next day if I feel better.

I also recently found that workouts every 2 days are a bit too much for me. If I do my normal intense workout on, say, Mondays and Thursdays, it works very well. But every 2 days doesn't seem to allow for enough "regeneration time".

Anywho, even in week #4 on the KD, I'm still noticing changes as the process continues. So, it seems these things can take some time.

FWIW.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Made my second batch of bone broth. Used a crockpot this time, filled it full of beef bones, and added just enough water to cover them. Put in about 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinagar and cooked it for 24 hours.

The result when it cooled was about a half-inch of hardened white fat on the top, and liquid brown broth underneath that. No gel.

There was a lot of meat on the bones, so I'm guessing I need better marrow bones with less meat left on them.

 

[Julius]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi,
After somedays I finally got to read this fast growing thread.

I approached the ketogenic diet concept about a year ago, coming from a bodybuilding setting I experienced ketosis on and off many times for weeks feeling many of the dreaded symptoms here mentioned which were the reason for my backing off of it, only to get to return trying to understand what went wrong! I would mainly eat high fat meats and high fat cheeses (no grains, no gluten, no supplements), unaware of the dairy and high protein ingestion 'bad' effects.

The first two days from the first time I tried it I felt a huge brain fog and felt quite stupid trying to understand basic tasks and even zoning out in front of people, I guess it was a huge, rapid and violent forcing of the body to 'switch' fuel. The fourth day I found myself mentally multitasking with quite a remarkable easyness to my awe, everything was mentally easy but without knowing why this came to dissapear so I got back to carbs, still 'low' for mainstream, but put the awfull symptoms of the ketogenic diet initial stages aside.

This remarkable event caused by near 0 carbs left me with a few questions, one of them being if I could always function with the some mental prowess/power and energy that I've witnessed. I'm very glad that Laura started this thread, now I (and all here) can put the pieces of the puzzle together.

From 3 weeks now I committed again to going in permanent ketosis, i've been feeling the "newness" feeling that Ngenoh as mentioned, along with long forgotten childhood memories.. I guess everything must be paid. ;)

 

[Foxx]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Made my second batch of bone broth. Used a crockpot this time, filled it full of beef bones, and added just enough water to cover them. Put in about 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinagar and cooked it for 24 hours.

The result when it cooled was about a half-inch of hardened white fat on the top, and liquid brown broth underneath that. No gel.

I think it's possible that the fat would solidify before the gelatin would get gelly--was it still liquid if/when you put it in the fridge, or did it gel then?

I personally haven't been using vinegar and made broth recently that was very gelly. I cooked it on low in a crock pot for about 34 hours, though the bones started out frozen. I also just finished another batch (about 30 hours, I think), but it hasn't cooled enough to determine the gel status.

 

[Beau]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The result when it cooled was about a half-inch of hardened white fat on the top, and liquid brown broth underneath that. No gel.

Was that after you had left it in the fridge to cool overnight?

 

[Don Genaro]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

If you can get your hands on some "tocino" - the translation I found was "salted lard" you might try adding it in the last couple of hours (particularly since you don't want to add salt too early on). I've made broth with a mixture of both beef and pork bones with some oxtails for added marrow. The tocino stays in one squishy piece even after hours of boiling. When I strain the broth I add the tocino back in and run it through the liquidizer. After storing in the fridge it has the solid fat layer on top with a very jelly-like mixture underneath which turns liquid on heating. A couple of spoons of lard and you're done!!!

If you can't find tocino, maybe just get some off-cuts of pork fat from your butcher and add them in...

 

[herondancer]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The "jelly" part of the broth comes from the gelatin in the cartilage of the joints. I just made a batch of broth using only marrow bones (expensive they were too) and while the broth was nice, it was pretty runny. I realized that other batches had been made with the joints, not just the bone shafts. Pigs feet make a great broth because there are so many joints with cartilage in them. Same with ox tails. I think you may have to ask specifically for the joints and if they will do it, have them halved, or even quartered with the bandsaw. Beef bones will need this because they are usually too big for a crock pot. Most butchers just chuck them, so they should be happy to give them to you.

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Third batch of bone broth, second one in the pressure cooker: this time it was all beef rib bones with some meat on. Since the last batch was so concentrated, I added more water and cut the time down to 2 hours instead of 4. Took the pot up to pressure seal it and then cut the heat to low.

This is the best batch so far! It still has a rich flavor, but its not so strong it needs diluting now. I had two huge soup mugs full for dinner this evening, and Hubby even tried some. (Prior batches were too strong for his taste. This one was a winner.)

Have to get to the butcher's for more, I'm going to call in marrow bones and see about some pigs feet this time around.

Practice makes perfect for this.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Made my second batch of bone broth. Used a crockpot this time, filled it full of beef bones, and added just enough water to cover them. Put in about 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinagar and cooked it for 24 hours.

The result when it cooled was about a half-inch of hardened white fat on the top, and liquid brown broth underneath that. No gel.

There was a lot of meat on the bones, so I'm guessing I need better marrow bones with less meat left on them.

You might want to try to mix it thoroughly before you let it cool down.

That's what I do and I almost get a milky kind of consistency. When this then cools down In the fridge I get a gelatinous mass, which I then dilute with a bit of how water and dissolve in it.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have made some notes on digestion and ketoadaptation so far, so I would appreciate it if you point out anything I got wrong or omitted.

Digestive tract:

A number of problems might result during ketoadaptation:

Diarrhea
Can be caused by excessive magnesium, vitamin C or fat (see insufficient bile). If it burns when it comes out, you probably don't have problems with digestive enzymes.
Constipation
It is an adaption symptom, but it can be mitigated by taking enough potassium. Magnesium and vitamin C can be used like laxatives.
Dehydration
The body's sodium needs increase. Atkins suggests a teaspoon of salt per day.
Low stomach acid
Symptoms are the food sitting in your stomach like a rock. Take HCL, Betaine HCL, or vitamin C or lemon or anything acidic really to help. Stomach acid is neutralized in the duodenum (beginning of the small intestine).
Insufficient bile
Symptoms are indigestion of fat, often causing diarrhea. This can be because of a sluggish liver. Immediate symptoms can be helped with ox bile, and the liver can be gradually healed with milk thisle.
Cramps
Try L-Carnitine if Potassium doesn't work. It can also be caused by dehydration or sodium (salt) deficiency.

Drink when thirsty; no more. Drinking too much causes potassium and other important nutrients to be lost through excess urine.

 

[Julius]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Dehydration
The body's sodium needs increase. Atkins suggests a teaspoon of salt per day.

It seems protein increases the load on liver, has well has having a diuretic effect and this is what i've noticed from my experience: Too Much Protein Can Lead to Dehydration, Researchers Find http://advance.uconn.edu/2002/020429/02042904.htm

Insufficient bile
Symptoms are indigestion of fat, often causing diarrhea. This can be because of a sluggish liver. Immediate symptoms can be helped with ox bile, and the liver can be gradually healed with milk thisle.
Cramps
Try L-Carnitine if Potassium doesn't work. It can also be caused by dehydration or sodium (salt) deficiency.
Drink when thirsty; no more. Drinking too much causes potassium and other important nutrients to be lost through excess urine.

I also struggle with reasonable difficulty to digest large quantities of lard, especially after the dinner when the body starts to slow down for sleep I cannot lay down if I don't feel it has passed through the stomach or I'll get stomach cramps and indigestion symptoms, vomits, etc. But broth seems to be O.K.