Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Great Psyche that Mediterranean Italian dish called Lardp di Colonnata really sound and looks delicious!

It is the same name in English, lard of Colonatta, since that is the name of the region. They swear by their marble containers which are made locally, but perhaps another container could be used. They cure it for 6 months though, so it will be one of those things where you are canning pork and you have a ton of lard to render. So rather than rendering it, one could just put it in a container with spices and leave it there for months. At http://www.lardodicolonnata.org/ingredienti/ they say that the marble container (Carrara marble) has a particular grainy surface and calcium carbonate content which makes the lard compact and soft. It has to be stored in a dry place at low temperatures (throughout the months of winter for instance).

The lard is prepared in rectangular chunks and then mixed with sea salt. Then garlic and other herbs of your choice are added. You have to "massage vigorously" the lard with the spices. The bottom of the container is covered with a mixture of more sea salt, garlic, spices like cinnamon, rosemary, pepper, coriander, etc. Then the container is filled with alternating layers of fat and the spices mixture.

The cover of the container is made out of wood and after a week the brine is added: water and salt with 20-35% of sea salt. The water is boiled and the sea salt is added. After it cools down it is added to cover the fat.

The whole thing is left alone for a period ranging from six months to twelve, and it stays good even for 5 years. Or so they say, that means it is good indefinitely.

When you want to eat it, you cut a slice out and remove the spices with a wet rag. And voilà.

I think the proportions of spices are intuitive according to your taste. You can use the same proportions suggested for breakfast sausage in the recipe section. The big thing will be getting a marble container though :P

 

[Cosmos]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Great Psyche that Mediterranean Italian dish called Lardp di Colonnata really sound and looks delicious!

It is the same name in English, lard of Colonatta, since that is the name of the region. They swear by their marble containers which are made locally, but perhaps another container could be used. They cure it for 6 months though, so it will be one of those things where you are canning pork and you have a ton of lard to render. So rather than rendering it, one could just put it in a container with spices and leave it there for months. At http://www.lardodicolonnata.org/ingredienti/ they say that the marble container (Carrara marble) has a particular grainy surface and calcium carbonate content which makes the lard compact and soft. It has to be stored in a dry place at low temperatures (throughout the months of winter for instance).

The lard is prepared in rectangular chunks and then mixed with sea salt. Then garlic and other herbs of your choice are added. You have to "massage vigorously" the lard with the spices. The bottom of the container is covered with a mixture of more sea salt, garlic, spices like cinnamon, rosemary, pepper, coriander, etc. Then the container is filled with alternating layers of fat and the spices mixture.

The cover of the container is made out of wood and after a week the brine is added: water and salt with 20-35% of sea salt. The water is boiled and the sea salt is added. After it cools down it is added to cover the fat.

The whole thing is left alone for a period ranging from six months to twelve, and it stays good even for 5 years. Or so they say, that means it is good indefinitely.

When you want to eat it, you cut a slice out and remove the spices with a wet rag. And voilà.

I think the proportions of spices are intuitive according to your taste. You can use the same proportions suggested for breakfast sausage in the recipe section. The big thing will be getting a marble container though :P

very nice! and since the winter is not far away I think this would be cool experiment!
I'll take a look arround what the prices of marble containers are and where to find cheap ones....
I think local stone workers could have or make that too.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have now reached around 120 pounds (5'6 male) and think that I am just getting too skinny. I have been restricting protein quite heavily, though not calculating it properly. I am still just not gaining any strength, and getting somewhat frustrated about it.

I will be experimenting with 30g of protein throughout 3 meals a day, whilst remaining at zero carb and eating lots and lots of fat to keep the ratio around 1:4 to see if I can gain some weight.

Take your time and enjoy the ride is eventually the spirit that is needed :) . According to a study suggested at the beginning of the topic it may take several weeks until improvements can be seen. And this may differ from one to another person again, when it is happening.

Maybe I am being a little impatient and 90g a day would be a bit too much. However my body composition is just getting skinnier and weaker week by week, and I have been experimenting for quite a long time with ketosis. This makes me think I have been going too low on the protein, less than 40g on some days.

Since I am quite physically active, young, and do serious workouts 3 times a week, perhaps I need a little more.

Today I did the 30g per meal thing, and had very good energy levels, but noticed the familiar symptoms of increased hunger throughout the day, so I'll cut it back bit by bit until I reach a happy medium.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm having my reservations about vitamin D supplements. I think most people find it helpful because it prevents the elimination of intracellular bacteria, which typically causes improvement of symptoms. But in the long term, you want to get rid of those bacteria as it messes up mitochondrial function.

Not that this necessarily means anything, but back when I was taking boatloads of Vit D after reading that ebook about it was when my occasional insomnia really kicked into high gear.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Since I am quite physically active, young, and do serious workouts 3 times a week, perhaps I need a little more...

As usual, it varies from one individual to the next. More importantly, it can depend on things like whether you are losing weight and whether you exercise a lot, either of which can increase the need for protein, and your sex. Here are some examples from Phinney & Volek, for athletes. Note that these researchers are not paleo/primal advocates, and some of their food recommendations might make people here cringe, but they are advocates of "full-time" ketogenic diet.

... we recommend aiming for an intake in the range of 0.6 to 1.0 grams per pound lean body mass. The table below provides a few examples of protein intake ranges for men and women with different weights and body fat contents. The key point here is that while these protein intakes are above the minimum RDA values, they are certainly not high protein intakes compared to current standards. Note also that our recommended intake ranges are pretty wide, allowing you a fair degree of flexibility in choosing your level of protein intake.

Athlete Type	Gender	Weight (lbs)	% Body Fat	Protein Grams
Power	Male	200	15	102-170
	Female	150	20	72-120
Endurance	Male	165	10	89-149
	Female	120	15	61-102

Phinney, Stephen; Jeff Volek (2012-06-15). The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (pp. 66-67). Beyond Obesity LLC. Kindle Edition.

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Maybe I am being a little impatient and 90g a day would be a bit too much. However my body composition is just getting skinnier and weaker week by week, and I have been experimenting for quite a long time with ketosis. This makes me think I have been going too low on the protein, less than 40g on some days.

Since I am quite physically active, young, and do serious workouts 3 times a week, perhaps I need a little more.

Today I did the 30g per meal thing, and had very good energy levels, but noticed the familiar symptoms of increased hunger throughout the day, so I'll cut it back bit by bit until I reach a happy medium.

If you have been feeling weak, losing weight that doesn't need to go, and have experienced good energy levels when increasing protein, maybe you do indeed need more protein? Also, a few authors, and that includes Nora Gedgaudas, have mentioned the need for more protein for athletes and people who work out. Age may be an issue here, as in the younger you are, the more physically active you're likely to be, in some cases your body is still undergowing growth and maturation changes, and perhaps the greater need for protein. This is just an assumption on my part though.
In the end, you have to be aware of the overall guidelines but also experiment and keep experimenting until you find the right balance. For me it has taken several months :)

Fwiw, when I first decreases protein I felt extremely hungry, so I had to decrease it slowly and eventually learn how to get the right fat versus protein ratio to feel satiated and energetic. I managed to find that balance, but am now experimenting with slightly higher protein levels so as to gain weight. I've also noticed that organ meats are much more filling to me than your regular steak or chop. Being more nutrient dense, it's not surprising. Apologies if I've missed it, but have you tried eating organ meats?

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Maybe I am being a little impatient and 90g a day would be a bit too much. However my body composition is just getting skinnier and weaker week by week, and I have been experimenting for quite a long time with ketosis. This makes me think I have been going too low on the protein, less than 40g on some days.

Since I am quite physically active, young, and do serious workouts 3 times a week, perhaps I need a little more.

Today I did the 30g per meal thing, and had very good energy levels, but noticed the familiar symptoms of increased hunger throughout the day, so I'll cut it back bit by bit until I reach a happy medium.

If you have been feeling weak, losing weight that doesn't need to go, and have experienced good energy levels when increasing protein, maybe you do indeed need more protein? Also, a few authors, and that includes Nora Gedgaudas, have mentioned the need for more protein for athletes and people who work out. Age may be an issue here, as in the younger you are, the more physically active you're likely to be, in some cases your body is still undergowing growth and maturation changes, and perhaps the greater need for protein. This is just an assumption on my part though.
In the end, you have to be aware of the overall guidelines but also experiment and keep experimenting until you find the right balance. For me it has taken several months :)

Fwiw, when I first decreases protein I felt extremely hungry, so I had to decrease it slowly and eventually learn how to get the right fat versus protein ratio to feel satiated and energetic. I managed to find that balance, but am now experimenting with slightly higher protein levels so as to gain weight. I've also noticed that organ meats are much more filling to me than your regular steak or chop. Being more nutrient dense, it's not surprising. Apologies if I've missed it, but have you tried eating organ meats?

Indeed it would certainly seem that way. I wouldn't consider myself an athlete, but I do much more physical work than your average person right now. I have just been kind of scared of raising protein too high to the point where the mitochondrial effects of the keto diet will not be as effective. However these fears may be unfounded as long as I don't go overboard and keep carbs extremely low, which I am finding fairly easy to do.

I'm glad you found the right balance :) I'm interested to hear how well increasing the protein goes.

I have taught myself to enjoy liver, though I have been avoiding it due to the very high protein content and little fat. I made it into pate which was quite nice, and think I will make another batch tomorrow. I used to eat liver with onion but am avoiding that for now due to carbs, so I will try it with bacon and butter. As far as other organ meats go I've not been very adventurous, but will try some kidney or heart on my next order.

...Since I am quite physically active, young, and do serious workouts 3 times a week, perhaps I need a little more...

As usual, it varies from one individual to the next. More importantly, it can depend on things like whether you are losing weight and whether you exercise a lot, either of which can increase the need for protein, and your sex. Here are some examples from Phinney & Volek, for athletes. Note that these researchers are not paleo/primal advocates, and some of their food recommendations might make people here cringe, but they are advocates of "full-time" ketogenic diet.

... we recommend aiming for an intake in the range of 0.6 to 1.0 grams per pound lean body mass. The table below provides a few examples of protein intake ranges for men and women with different weights and body fat contents. The key point here is that while these protein intakes are above the minimum RDA values, they are certainly not high protein intakes compared to current standards. Note also that our recommended intake ranges are pretty wide, allowing you a fair degree of flexibility in choosing your level of protein intake.

Athlete Type	Gender	Weight (lbs)	% Body Fat	Protein Grams
Power	Male	200	15	102-170
	Female	150	20	72-120
Endurance	Male	165	10	89-149
	Female	120	15	61-102

Phinney, Stephen; Jeff Volek (2012-06-15). The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (pp. 66-67). Beyond Obesity LLC. Kindle Edition.

Thanks for this, I have ordered the book and will be reading it soon.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Not that this necessarily means anything, but back when I was taking boatloads of Vit D after reading that ebook about it was when my occasional insomnia really kicked into high gear.

Well, vitamin D3 has an energizing effect, so if you took it in the evening or at night, it would then cause insomnia. But still, that study examined 250,000 people. That is a huge number for a study.

I noticed that megadoses of vitamin D3 didn't made my brain any favor. If anything, I would say it had a detrimental effect. And it would make sense, if intracellular bacterial proliferates, then mitochondrial function gets impaired.

I'm sticking to the occasional sun exposure, and for the winter, cod liver oil if I need it. But I would be more interested to see if the ketogenic diet heals vitamin D metabolism.

 

[aimarok]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It looks like the lard in the picture is coming from a mangalitza pig since the lard is so full of fat and big.
now finding a good recipe for the quantities and sorts of herbs and spices one should use for a good end result would be nice!

What is the english name of that dish (if it exists)?

It is very popular in Ukraine and Russia and it is called "salo" [sɑ:lɔ:]. To make it you don't need an access to mountain caves and a spare half-year, just a common refrigerator, some salt and couple of days. :) It is very delicious with home-made mustard. :P I make it using only salt, but there is a variant with garlic also. Probably it's better to make a dedicated post in Recipes section.

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm glad you found the right balance :) I'm interested to hear how well increasing the protein goes.

So far it is going well :) I have an "inner regulator", so to say. Too much and I'll feel lethargic, so I keep myself just below that level. I usually prefer to eat small amounts because lethargy for me only happens about half an hour to an hour after eating, so if after that time I'm fine, which I usually am, and could do with some more, I eat some more. I seem to digest much better that way. Larger portions in one go simply do not make me feel well at all.

I have taught myself to enjoy liver, though I have been avoiding it due to the very high protein content and little fat. I made it into pate which was quite nice, and think I will make another batch tomorrow. I used to eat liver with onion but am avoiding that for now due to carbs, so I will try it with bacon and butter. As far as other organ meats go I've not been very adventurous, but will try some kidney or heart on my next order.

What I do is eat a small amount of liver, and literally drench it in lard. I couldn't eat more liver even if I wanted, as it fills me so much. So if you're worried about the protein, I would suggest adding that extra fat.
From all of my reading and listening to podcasts, organ meats are really superfoods due their nutritional content, liver being one of the most praised. I'm not yet sure of whether that's because it is really the most nutrient dense amongst the other organ meats, or simply the most popular. Liver (and other organs) used to be fully integrated in our diets and regularly consumed several decades ago, when our ancient wisdom knew much better than we do now. In fact, research suggests that amongst hunters and hunter gatherer societies organ meats were the most prized. Regular meat, the one nowadays sold on the supermarket, would be "second class" food source. This is not only suggested by research done to those communities, but also supported by studies on the nutritional content of each.

 

[seek10]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thank you for the reply. Once I felt hunger during IF time though I was taking bone broth , so I ate some meat and fat to avoid headache. so trying to understand what is getting restricted during IF phase. It looks it is nothing like specific thing ( like calories or protiens etc). If I am taking 2 cups of bone broth it is 14gms of protein and probably I will increase the fat in bone broth during IF and see how it goes.

seek10, if you are drinking broth and having your daily amount of protein plus lots of fat, I think you don't need to do the strict IF, especially if you are not feeling well doing it, and you are on the skinny side.

If I observe the same pattern of headache more I planned to stop the IF. As for was my weight is concerned it stopped to change for almost 2 years. After starting the bone broth things were much better , but I trying to understand are the definitions of IF, as there is lack of consensus in the paleo world.

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Since I am quite physically active, young, and do serious workouts 3 times a week, perhaps I need a little more.

Today I did the 30g per meal thing, and had very good energy levels, but noticed the familiar symptoms of increased hunger throughout the day, so I'll cut it back bit by bit until I reach a happy medium.

I'm wondering what you mean by serious workouts? Phinney and others have brought up the fact, that doing too much exercise, as in more than ca 20min at a time, will mess up your energy levels, heighten cortisol levels and can make you feel fatigued.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Since I am quite physically active, young, and do serious workouts 3 times a week, perhaps I need a little more.

Today I did the 30g per meal thing, and had very good energy levels, but noticed the familiar symptoms of increased hunger throughout the day, so I'll cut it back bit by bit until I reach a happy medium.

I'm wondering what you mean by serious workouts? Phinney and others have brought up the fact, that doing too much exercise, as in more than ca 20min at a time, will mess up your energy levels, heighten cortisol levels and can make you feel fatigued.

So far I have been working by a more traditional barbell strength training program, using sets x reps. So say one day I do 3 sets of 5-8 reps of squats, bench press and dips. These workouts don't last more than half an hour, and I get plenty of rest in between sets. I leave the gym feeling satisfyingly tired but not overly fatigued, and with a good energy level. I also do swimming and sprint training, but not too frequently.

This is always what has worked for me, but maybe things will be different in a keto adapted state, and a more "super slow", 1 set per exercise would be a better training program. There is so much conflicting information out there, even in the low carb community, so I pretty much just have to experiment on myself for a long time to see what actually works.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I would definitely keep magnesium in stock. In fact, I would keep the basic detox cocktail at hand just in case: vitamin C, magnesium and NAC. These are the kind of supplements that should only help if there is something off. You don't necessarily have to take magnesium every single day since you are taking your broth and having your fair share of minerals through that. But there would be days when it will be handy to have magnesium available.

For instance, at the beginning of ketoadaptation I had a few days where I had such a headache I thought my skull was going to split in two. I took magnesium, vitamin C and NAC and that just took care of it. I still take magnesium and NAC when I have to skip a lot of sleep due to work and it does make the difference.

Thanks Psyche! I will order them to have them at hand.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm making bone broth from marrow bones I got from my butcher (chopped into about 7" pieces) with the joints on it, and a bit of meat and some fat. He also cracked open the joints. I put some apple cider vinegar and lemon and soaked it for an hour before I started cooking it yesterday afternoon.

I still have several hours of simmering before I add salt, pepper, and more fat in the form of butter and lard. I have to render some more lard this morning, as I ran out yesterday evening. I'll post how this batch turns out after it's done and I taste it.

And the bones came out to 1.4 kg for the equivalent of just under US$1 for the whole thing.

This batch turned out delicious and satisfying/filling.