Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Don Genaro]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Is there a limit to protein intake in one sitting? I weigh just under 60k so I'm aiming for about 60gms of protein but since some days I only eat 2 meals, I was wondering if 30gms in one meal might be too much- I remember this from the carbs and was wondering if it would apply here?

Well, according to Rosedale, the paleo longevity researcher whose work Gedgaudas is based on, the limit for one meal should be around 25 grams roughly. So 30 grams is not that far away.

If you are ideal body weight is 60Kg, then it is okay to aim for 60 grams.

Thanks Psyche! I would say my ideal weight is 60k (or maybe even slightly more) as I was around 59k for many years and considered a "skinny" so I don't mind if I go over 60... In the last year I've weighed around 56k so hopefully I'll gain a few more kilos in muscle!

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm still catching up with this thread, having been away for two weeks in August really made me lose track and am now reading as much as I can on several forum topics.

I'll share my experience with ketosis so far: I have been in ketosis for more than a year and can definitely relate to many of the symptoms some of you have reported, including fatigue, headaches, feeling feverish, etc. I' also had skin rashes, mood swings, and extremely high cholesterol levels, all of which have, throughout time, fully stabilized.
At the time it took me about two months to transition, meaning that it took a good two months for me before the most noticeable "negative" symptoms faded. Since then I have been feeling great, apart from a recent stress related illness I reported elsewhere, I have been feeling better than I ever have. I have noticed a mental sharpness I don't remember ever having had, much less need for sleep, a much greater ability to concentrate, and more physical strength.

I haven't eaten any fruit nor anything sweet for well over a year, and almost zero vegetables. For more then a month now I have been on zero vegetables since I have been testing each, including sea vegetables, and with each I get bloated. I have occasionally been cooking with onions though. I can also tolerate some nuts if eaten in very small quantities.

It took me a while before I figured out how much protein to eat until I finally reached a point where I felt I managed to get the right ratio of protein versus fat. Lately I have been increasing slightly the protein level which is helping me gain some weight. Being very skinny and having lost even more weight since being in ketosis I have been worrying a bit over this, but I have found that although the more fat I eat the less meat I need because I'm simply not hungry and can go on forever before needing food, increasing the protein amount, something also mentioned by Laura earlier, actually makes me hungrier, hence helping me put on some weight. I have recently gained 2.5kg, which is a small success for me :)

As some of you reported, I can't do any coconut derived foods either. Coconut gives me bad cramping and coconut oil makes me bloated. I can't do any dairy either, apart from ghee. I have, however, recently listened to a podcast by Mark McAfee where he posits that dairy intolerance isn't really intolerance to dairy, but rather an intolerance to pasteurization. He says that raw dairy has all the needed enzymes needed to digest dairy, and that those will be destroyed through pasteurization. Well, he completely misses the boat on casein since he hasn't even once mentioned it, but in any case I may give raw butter a try.

Right now I'm taking probiotics to help restore my gut after 2 courses of antibiotics given, somewhat mistakenly, for the recent "illness" I mentioned above. I'm not sure they're doing that much good though, since probiotics largely include carb digesting bacteria which is all but what I'm eating, so I think I'll just stop.

Now, on to read some more of the great papers on ketosis posted and linked to this thread :D

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I found that listening to last week's Ask The Low Carb Experts was helpful.

All Things Slow Lifting (Slow Burn 101) | Fred Hahn
_http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2012/09/24-all-things-slow-lifting-slow-burn-101-fred-hahn/

I have a better picture now of what I would need to do and the details of what it would involve. A week or two ago I listened to Nora Gedgaudas' "kettle bell" podcast and it was somewhat helpful, although I have no interest in using kettle bells.

Resistance training and I go way back, to high school, but the experiences have been generally bad. What I need to do now is set aside the junk memories and try a new approach that doesn't have those same issues.

While I may not build very much muscle as long as my endocrine problems persist, it will not prevent the exercise from "working." I can't see any reason why short duration twice-a-week exercise of this type wouldn't work, and there is some precedent that infrequent exercise does work for me.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Jimmy Moore, the well-known low-carb blogger/podcaster who has been following a ketogenic diet for four months now, just posted his monthly progress report on his blog. It's interesting. He has been tracking his blood ketone levels (specifically, beta-hydroxybutyrate). It's a bit expensive, but if you want an accurate reading then that's the way.

I think this is the best part:

WHOA! When I posted my 4.5 A1c number on Twitter, several medical practitioners said they had NEVER seen a level that low before. WOO HOO! It’s yet another one of the many benefits I’m seeing with this nutritional ketosis experiment. And I’ve still got two more months left officially on it. But honestly, if I’m still seeing results, why would I EVER stop doing this?

You can read the entire post at:
_http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-n1-experiments-nutritional-ketosis-day-91-120/15560

 

[Sinapi]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi all,

I thought I'd give an update. I think it's been about three or four weeks since I've started the ketogenic diet with the bone broth. I bought some ketostrips and I recall always getting results between 80 and 160 mg/dL (high ketosis).

Like Puck, I'm also getting these weird sleep cycles. Sometimes, I'm good all day, other times I can only stay awake for a few hours before needing a nap, and on some days I've slept over twelve hours. I generally wake up every morning between four and five so I can get ready for school, but it doesn't feel as tiring to do so than when I wasn't in ketosis.

I also feel like I have more stamina than before, though that may be from doing kettlebells twice a week. I think I'm ready to move up from the 10 to the 20 lb one, since I did not feel exhausted after exercising for 20 minutes last time. I've also lost about 10 lbs since starting from about 200 lbs (I'm 5'10").

I would get diarrhea every once in a while, or if I took too much magnesium. Other than that, I get the "baby stools" others have reported once or twice a day with occasional stomach cramping. I think that's part of autophagy, though.

One problem I'm still having is that, even with bone broth, I get acid reflux unless I take 3 betaine HCL pills. I don't think the ox bile has a big impact on the reflux, at least for me. I used to take vinegar for that, but after abstaining from it for a week, I've found that it gives me headaches.

Another problem is that I am not hungry enough to even meet the RDA (50g) of protein. I can drink some fatty broth with meat, liver, or sardines mixed in for breakfast and them not feel hungry all day. In this fasting state, I feel like I can think a bit clearer as well. When I decide to have some dinner for the sake of getting more nutrition, I feel tired and get "brain fog" from the extra food. I do not think I'm going over the 25g/meal limit, and try to add 2-3 tablespoons of grassfed tallow to the fat from the marrow broth (can't get pastured lard currently). My body just seems better with less food, but I don't know if this is healthy to keep up or not.

On a side note, I do not feel as stressed as before (unless I've been provoked by someone), but I'm not sure if that's because my classes aren't as hard or if my body has actually increased its tolerance to stress. My dysthymia is still present, however.

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

Zlyja

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am currently reading Phinney & Volek's "booklet" (their term) The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, and realizing that "performance" can mean different things to different people. While the target audience for this material is, ostensibly, athletes, I'm no athlete and I am still encountering much information that may apply. For me, "performance" is making it through the day with a minimum of fatigue, but it doesn't seem to matter.

I imagine that much of the material in the book has been covered elsewhere, but sometimes I just need something super-clear but not abridged, to augment what I encounter here in the forum. While there is technical language in the book, it is written at an intermediate level and reading it is a breeze for me after plowing through quite a number of arcane research reports. To me, the book presents itself as a continuation and elaboration of The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, which I found very helpful in its own right. I like their inclusion of "hunches," which point to areas not well covered by research and that one might possibly want to experiment with personally.

One of my recent realizations, reinforced by this reading, is that all of my experience with exercise has been in the context of high carbohydrate intake, and with much of that coming from foods to which I was sensitive or allergic. I know nothing about what will happen under ketogenic conditions. It's time to try again, assuming nothing.

I am about a week and a half into near-zero carbs. The keto adaptation symptoms seem to have let up slightly (they weren't particularly severe this time anyway). The book talks about this relating to the muscles adapting to prefer fat over ketones, freeing up ketones for use by the brain. My brain feels like it could use a boost right about now, and I am looking foward to something like that happening.

My water weight has stopped dropping; time to try some resistance exercise!

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just finished reading the articles in this post:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.msg359842.html#msg359842

I could not get through all of the jargon, but I tried to get the gist. I also thought to suggest to try ketogenic diet treatment with my schizophrenic uncle while he's in his current facility. I have been sharing information with my grandmother and she said she would suggest it when she got to reviewing the medication plans. Our family is generally open to this sort of thing, and it's quite possible my uncle will stick to the diet if it allows him to reduce or eliminate his medication. He is stable and on meds right now, but complains about having trouble thinking.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just finished reading the articles in this post:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.msg359842.html#msg359842

I could not get through all of the jargon, but I tried to get the gist. I also thought to suggest to try ketogenic diet treatment with my schizophrenic uncle while he's in his current facility. I have been sharing information with my grandmother and she said she would suggest it when she got to reviewing the medication plans. Our family is generally open to this sort of thing, and it's quite possible my uncle will stick to the diet if it allows him to reduce or eliminate his medication. He is stable and on meds right now, but complains about having trouble thinking.

You are ahead of me; I am still working through the list. I can usually manage with the terminology, but it makes my head feel worse than keto-adaptation does. :)

Be careful with "ketogenic diet" (KD) in the setting that you are talking about. As I have mentioned before, it means different things to different people. A modern therapeutic KD can be a modified Atkins diet, which as we know here is usually pretty safe even without medical monitoring. (Excepting people that are unable to metabolize ketones.)

When you have MDs involved (including psychiatrists) a KD can turn into something more risky and less effective, like the "calorie restricted KDs" I keep encountering in research reports. The idea used to be to both starve them and cut out carbs at the same time. This may have something to do with starvation having been found to be another way to control seizures. Don't assume that medical personnel have a clue what they are doing; they may or they may not, and the confusion surrounding ketogenesis is real and extensive.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

You're right Megan. I am concerned that even if I speak up they may not listen to me. I'm only 19. But I keep thinking I definitely want to be present when my grandmother discusses this with them. Furthermore, they would probably be giving him corn oil or MCT oil, maybe even think they will have to feed him through a tube or through an IV. Grassfed beef tallow might not be hard to get but would they consider it even if we did all the work? My uncle has managed to convince the staff to appoint him a lawyer, which he is supposed to have anyways, which may help our case. He even has a paying job washing clothes.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

You're right Megan. I am concerned that even if I speak up they may not listen to me. I'm only 19. But I keep thinking I definitely want to be present when my grandmother discusses this with them. Furthermore, they would probably be giving him corn oil or MCT oil, maybe even think they will have to feed him through a tube or through an IV. Grassfed beef tallow might not be hard to get but would they consider it even if we did all the work? My uncle has managed to convince the staff to appoint him a lawyer, which he is supposed to have anyways, which may help our case. He even has a paying job washing clothes.

There are lots of "maybe's," and it doesn't accomplish much to try to anticipate and worry over them. I never heard of a corn-oil based therapeutic KD. There are also scary-looking premixed "diets," consistent with the idea that "treating" people is really just a way to sell product (in which case a little harm here and there actually contributes to the bottom line -- the sellers just have to work out the optimum amount of harm to cause in order to maximize profits).

MCT oil is common, and I don't know that it would be a problem. Again, what would be preferable (to me, anyway) would be a modified Atkins diet, possibly with coconut oil (50% MCT) since that seems to be working well for a lot of people with neurological issues. The 100% MCT oil seems extreme to me, but I haven't reviewed the research supporting it.

I am in the process of trying to work out whether coconut oil gives me abdominal pains. I eliminated it until the pain went away, and I am reintroducing it again at a lower dose. It is especially ketogenic, as fat sources go, but may be of more interest to people with broken brains than to people in general.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

MCT oil may not be a bad thing but I've heard it tastes aweful. I'm afraid if they just fill his cup with vegetable oil and a puddle of tofu for protein three times a day he'll go nuts (perhaps for the better in this case). Again, you are right. I should just be sure to be present.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

MCT oil may not be a bad thing but I've heard it tastes aweful. I'm afraid if they just fill his cup with vegetable oil and a puddle of tofu for protein three times a day he'll go nuts (perhaps for the better in this case). Again, you are right. I should just be sure to be present.

"Being present" is indeed the key, I think, but not so much in a physical location sense (although that might indeed help).

Ketogenic diets have a solid basis in research for treatment of seizures and other conditions. Have you put together materials of a nature and quality that might be used to educate medical people on this topic?

For example:
_http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/6/1/10

I found this link in this blog post:
_http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2010/06/wheat-and-schizophrenia.html

Emily Deans, a psychiatrist, is one of the bloggers I follow.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

That was one of the papers I had in mind. Another was the one about the Inuit diet. I think the cases with reductions in Parkinson's and Alzheimer's would be convincing. I also wonder how open they will be to suggestions for an improved diet, such as salt water, potassium, magnesium, vitamin C and so on. Low-dose cortisone or prednisone on hand in case of an inflammatory reaction.

 

[seek10]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I was looking for nutrient contents in Bone broth. is this available any where ?. My guess is Fats ( variable, any way floats ) , carbs (should be none) , proteins ( should be none if there is no meat) , calories ( I am not sure) .

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

That was one of the papers I had in mind. Another was the one about the Inuit diet. I think the cases with reductions in Parkinson's and Alzheimer's would be convincing. I also wonder how open they will be to suggestions for an improved diet, such as salt water, potassium, magnesium, vitamin C and so on. Low-dose cortisone or prednisone on hand in case of an inflammatory reaction.

I don't know, having never met them. It doesn't seem very likely to me that your suggestions would be accepted enthusiastically. I say that both as an experienced patient and as someone who works in the healthcare industry.

This is rapidly drifting off topic, but I am sure many of us here know people that have serious health problems that we would like to see them resolve. Trying to "help" someone, though, that is not requesting help can be opening a huge free-will can of worms. I can tell you what I know about things I know something about, but I have zero background information about this situation, and no knowledge of treating schizophrenia. I don't think there is anything more I can say.