Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Laura said:
For emilien512: I was not talking about an enema but a flush, as in drinking two big glasses full of salted water upon arising which I know some people do and swear by it.

Count me as one of those who do the salted water flush occasionally (2-3 times a month). We aren't talking about a ton of salt - 1 teaspoon (not tablespoon) of sea salt in 24 oz of warm water, drinking all at once. As Alana said above, it does work -- and quickly. ;) I really feel better after a dose.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

1984 said:
Laura said:
For emilien512: I was not talking about an enema but a flush, as in drinking two big glasses full of salted water upon arising which I know some people do and swear by it.

Count me as one of those who do the salted water flush occasionally (2-3 times a month). We aren't talking about a ton of salt - 1 teaspoon (not tablespoon) of sea salt in 24 oz of warm water, drinking all at once. As Alana said above, it does work -- and quickly. ;) I really feel better after a dose.
Thx for that :P
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

emilien512 said:
1984 said:
Laura said:
For emilien512: I was not talking about an enema but a flush, as in drinking two big glasses full of salted water upon arising which I know some people do and swear by it.

Count me as one of those who do the salted water flush occasionally (2-3 times a month). We aren't talking about a ton of salt - 1 teaspoon (not tablespoon) of sea salt in 24 oz of warm water, drinking all at once. As Alana said above, it does work -- and quickly. ;) I really feel better after a dose.
Thx for that :P

Same here - I'll give it a go in the morn. :)
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan said:
LQB said:
...
Yes, we use a vented suspended rotating barrel for the compost, and adding just a few of these "oiled" filter baskets visibly retards the composting process.

We did have a barrel composter, that was turned with a crank. The trouble with that was that it kept going anaerobic -- the first clue is the smell! The design just didn't provide enough airflow. So now we have a bin.

That's the one we have (a very large one) and it works fine unless you put oiled coffee/tea grounds in the mix - apparently it doesn't take much of the MCTs to stop the good bacteria.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Here is an article from Chris Masterjohn in the latest WAPF Journal. It backs up many elements of the KD discussed in this thread. To view all the figures and tables go here: http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/beyond-good-and-evil/pdf

Written by Christopher Masterjohn
Monday, 10 December 2012 19:28

Article Summary

• Successful traditional diets provided many nutrients that cooperate with one another to produce excellent health. This article provides several illustrative examples of this type of cooperation.

• Methionine from muscle meat contributes to cell growth and repair, cellular communication, antioxidant defense, and detoxification. In order to fulfill these functions, however, methionine must be balanced with B vitamins, choline, and glycine from organ meats, egg yolks, legumes, leafy greens, skin and bones.

• Vitamins A, D and K cooperate to protect our soft tissues from calcification, to nourish our bones and teeth, and to provide children with adequate growth. We obtain these nutrients together by consuming organ meats, cod liver oil, fatty fish, grass-fed animal fats, green and orange vegetables, and fermented plant foods.

• Magnesium is required for every process in the body. Among its many interactions, magnesium is required for proper calcium metabolism. Magnesium is abundant in many plant foods and some seafood, but there is little magnesium in meat and almost none in refined sugar and refined grains. Consuming a balanced diet devoid of refined sugar and refined grains is the best way to obtain adequate magnesium.

• These interactions demonstrate that biology is very complex. Rather than thinking about whether certain nutrients from traditional diets are good for us or bad for us, we should seek to understand how they all work together in proper balance to promote radiant and vibrant health.


Synergy and Context with Dietary Nutrients

Successful traditional diets provided a rich array of nutrients that cooperated with one another to produce vibrant health. As modern diets have shifted towards nutrient-poor foods fortified with the favored nutrients du jour, we have gazed askance at the degeneration that has resulted and embarked on a series of searches for the dietary villains that we imagine lurking in the shadows.

We have blamed heart disease on cholesterol, mortality on meat, osteoporosis on vitamin A, and diabetes on fat. Yet somehow it has eluded us that we are asking all the wrong questions. Biology is not a war between good molecules and evil molecules, nor is it a war between "wholesome" natural foods like vegetables and "poisonous" natural foods like meat. Biology is a system wherein many parts work together in synergy to produce a context within which each part benefits the whole. Several examples of this type of synergy follow.
METHIONINE, B VITAMINS, GLYCINE

Successful traditional diets provided muscle meats together with organ meats and gelatinous materials such as bones, gristle and other connective tissue. These combinations provided a healthy balance between the methionine found in muscle meats, the B vitamins found in organ meats, and the glycine found in connective tissue. Modern diets, by contrast, provide abundant quantities of methionine-rich muscle meats while organs and connective tissue have fallen by the wayside. The result of this imbalance is that methionine is unable to fulfill its proper cellular functions and generates toxic byproducts instead, while the supply of glycine is depleted. Together, these changes are likely to contribute to reduced longevity and chronic disease (Figure 1).

Methionine is an amino acid that we obtain from most dietary proteins, but is especially abundant in animal proteins (Table 1). As shown in Figure 2,1-3 folate and vitamin B12, and to a lesser extent vitamin B6, niacin, and riboflavin, assist methionine in carrying out one of its major cellular functions: the addition of a single carbon atom together with a small assortment of hydrogen atoms to a wide variety of molecules, a process known as “methylation.” Methylation is important for the synthesis of many cellular components and for the regulation of gene expression. As a result, it is critical for the maintenance and repair of existing tissue, the building up of new tissue, and cellular communication. Methylation is especially important for the passing along of epigenetic information from parent cells to their daughter cells as they multiply. Liver is rich in all of the B vitamins important to this process. Muscle meats provide smaller amounts of most of them, but are relatively poor in folate. Folate is found primarily in liver and legumes, with modest amounts in egg yolks and some seeds, seafood, and leafy greens (Table 2). When any of these vitamins is missing, methionine fails to contribute properly to methylation and instead generates homocysteine, a potentially toxic byproduct that may contribute to cardiovascular disease.4

In support of the relevance of these pathways to human nutrition, a randomized, placebocontrolled trial showed that three months of combined supplementation with folic acid and vitamin B12 lowered homocysteine concentrations.5 In the same study, a single large dose of methionine temporarily increased homocysteine concentrations, while supplementation with B vitamins protected against this effect. This study demonstrates the critical need for balance between methionine and these B vitamins, and suggests that many people may not be getting enough folate or vitamin B12 to properly handle the methionine they are obtaining from muscle meats.

As shown in Figure 2,1-3 once our needs for methylation are met, we use vitamin B6 and glycine to convert any additional methionine in our diet to glutathione, which is the master antioxidant and detoxifier of the cell as well as a key regulator of protein function. The conversion of methionine to glutathione is not instantaneous, however, and our liver requires a buffer system to protect itself against excessive methylation and the accumulation of homocysteine.

This buffer system is comprised primarily of three nutrients: glycine, which is found most abundantly in bones and other connective tissue (Table 3); choline, which is found primarily in liver and egg yolks (Table 4); and betaine, which we can either make within our own bodies from choline or obtain directly in our diets from spinach, wheat, and beets (Table 5). Muscle meat provides its own vitamin B6, but provides relatively little glycine, choline and betaine. In order to safely use extra methionine from muscle meat to support our antioxidant defenses and detoxification systems, we therefore must balance muscle meat with liver and egg yolks as well as with soups, gravies, sauces, or other creative dishes made from bones and other connective tissue, including skin. As useful adjuncts to these foods, some people may also benefit from incorporating spinach, wheat or beets into their diet.

Several studies support the relevance of these pathways to human nutrition. In one such study, a large dose of methionine increased the excretion of a metabolic byproduct of glycine, choline and betaine in the urine,6 suggesting that excess methionine causes the irreversible loss of these nutrients. Randomized, placebo-controlled trials have shown that two weeks' supplementation with choline7 or six weeks' supplementation with betaine7 lowered homocysteine levels both in the fasting state and after consuming a large dose of methionine. In a similar study, three months' supplementation with vitamin B6 made a small improvement in homocysteine levels after a large dose of methionine.5

There are, unfortunately, very few nutritional studies using glycine because scientists have not considered it an “essential” amino acid. Although our bodies can synthesize glycine, primarily from the amino acid serine, one group of scientists recently estimated that our ability to produce glycine may fall short of our needs for this amino acid by up to ten grams per day.1 This is roughly the equivalent of an ounce of bone meal each day. These authors pointed out that markers of glycine deficiency appear in the urine of vegetarians, people consuming low-protein diets, children recovering from malnourishment, and pregnant women. They further suggested that most of us adapt to a subtler degree of glycine deficiency by decreasing our own turnover of collagen, which may lead to the accumulation of damaged collagen with age, thereby contributing to arthritis, poor-quality skin, and many of the other negative consequences of aging. Indeed, while some studies have shown that restricting dietary methionine lengthens the lifespan of rats and while these have generated a great deal of interest, a similar study recently showed that the same effect can be achieved by supplementing the diet with extra glycine.8

Some authors have recently suggested that a vegan diet would lengthen lifespan because of its naturally low methionine content.9 If methionine restriction primarily increases lifespan by increasing the ratio of glycine to methionine, however, then this suggestion could not be more wrong, because vegetarians show signs of glycine deficiency.1 Vegan diets are low in total biologically available protein, not just methionine. Human studies suggest that low-protein diets waste glycine by using it simply as a source of much-needed nitrogen.10

A better way to improve the balance of glycine to methionine would be to replace a substantial proportion of muscle meats in the diet with bones and skin. Adding organ meats, egg yolks, and plant foods rich in folate and betaine to the diet would also be likely to improve longevity by working with glycine to support the safe and effective utilization of methionine. When these nutrients are all provided in rich supply, methionine supports the growth and repair of tissues, our defense against oxidants, detoxification and proper cellular communication.
VITAMINS A, D AND K2

Successful traditional diets also provided a balance between vitamins A, D, and K2. Vitamin A is most abundant in liver and fish liver oils, such as cod liver oil.11 Plant foods rich in carotenoids also provide vitamin A, although they do so much less reliably than liver and cod liver oil because the ability to convert carotenoids to vitamin A varies about ten-fold between individuals. 12

Vitamin D is most abundant in cod liver oil and fatty fish. Sunshine is also an important source of vitamin D, though our ability to use sunshine to synthesize this vitamin depends on where we live, our skin color, how much time we spend outdoors, and the type of clothing we wear.13

Vitamin K2 is found primarily in animal fats and fermented foods.14 We can also synthesize vitamin K2 from the vitamin K1 found in leafy green vegetables, but this conversion seems to be very inefficient in humans. To a certain extent vitamin K1 can also substitute for vitamin K2, but this substitution is limited because our bodies distribute vitamin K1 primarily to the liver and vitamin K2 primarily to other tissues. The specific form of vitamin K2 found in animal fat, moreover, has unique functions that are shared neither by the forms of vitamin K2 found in fermented plant foods nor by the vitamin K1 found in leafy greens.15 As shown in Figure 3, toxicity results when the supply of these vitamins is thrown off balance. When vitamins A, D, and K2 are all available in rich supply, by contrast, as shown in Figure 4, they cooperate to promote growth, to nourish strong bones and teeth, and to prevent the calcification of soft tissues.

When large imbalances between vitamins A and D favor vitamin A, phosphorus accumulates at the expense of calcium, promoting bone loss.16 Vitamin A may also overwhelm the storage capacity of the liver under these conditions, contributing to liver damage. When the imbalance favors vitamin D, calcium accumulates in soft tissues, leading to stones in the kidney and bladder, and calcification of the blood vessels and aortal valves.13 In a growing child, this imbalance would be likely to favor premature calcification of the growth plates, thereby preventing the child from reaching his or her full potential for growth.14 This aberrant pattern of calcification occurs at least in part because the imbalance contributes to the overproduction of vitamin K-dependent proteins in great excess of the capacity for vitamin K2 to activate them.17 These include proteins that direct calcium to our bones and teeth and away from our soft tissues. Since vitamin K2 fails to activate these proteins, the proteins in turn fail to ensure the adequate nourishment of our bones and teeth and fail to protect our soft tissues. One remaining question is whether vitamin K2 protects against vitamin D toxicity just as vitamin A does. This seems likely, but no studies have yet shown it to be true.

One study thus far has demonstrated the interaction between vitamins A and D in humans. In 1941, Irwin G. Spiesman published a trial showing that massive doses of vitamins A and D caused toxicity when either vitamin was provided alone and failed to protect against the common cold. When massive doses of both vitamins were provided together, by contrast, they failed to induce any toxicity and offered powerful protection against the common cold.18 Some authors have argued that a second study published in 2001 showed antagonism between the two vitamins.19 This study, however, did not show a true interaction. Vitamin A decreased blood levels of calcium by 1.0 percent when given alone, and by 1.4 percent when given in combination with the hormone form of vitamin D. The authors did not measure blood levels of phosphorus, and failed to show that vitamin A did anything different in the presence of vitamin D than in its absence.

Recent evidence from experiments performed on isolated cells suggests that vitamins A and D may synergistically suppress the development of autoimmune diseases20 and perhaps even cure diabetes by causing the regeneration of pancreatic stem cells.21 Forming any conclusions from these studies would be premature, however, since we need to follow them up with nutritional studies in humans or live animals.

Altogether, the available evidence supports the rich provision of vitamins A, D, and K2 together by consuming organ meats, animal fats, fermented foods, fatty fish, cod liver oil, and colorful vegetables, while spending plenty of time outdoors. Obtaining a rich supply of these vitamins together allows each of them to carry out its biological functions safely and effectively.
Magnesium : The Universal Metal

Some nutrients play so many roles in the body that literally everything depends on them. One such nutrient is magnesium.22 Magnesium is abundant in many whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes and vegetables, some fruit, and some seafood. It is less abundant in meat, by contrast, and almost entirely absent from refined grains and sugar (Table 6). Modern diets rich in refined grains and sugar thus provide far less magnesium than traditional diets wherein these “displacing foods of modern commerce” were absent.

Magnesium contributes to more than three hundred specific chemical reactions that occur within our bodies.22 The most basic energy currency of our cells, ATP, exists primarily bound to magnesium. Magnesium is thus essential for every reaction that depends on ATP. Magnesium also activates the enzyme that makes copies of DNA, as well as the enzyme that makes RNA, which is responsible for translating the codes contained within our genes into the production of every protein within our body. Magnesium is thus literally involved in every single process that occurs within the body, making a specific enumeration of all of its interactions impossible to contain even within a large book, far less an article such as this. The well known interaction between magnesium and calcium, however, provides a classic example (Figure 5).

Magnesium deficiency decreases blood levels of calcium in humans and most animals.22 The reasons for this are complex and reflect the universal importance of magnesium rather than a specific interaction between the two minerals. In a healthy individual, parathyroid hormone activates vitamin D to its hormone form, which in turn maintains blood levels of calcium within the appropriate range, in part by helping us absorb calcium from our food.

Magnesium deficiency causes a failure in this system through several mechanisms. Without magnesium, the liver cannot convert vitamin D to its semi-activated storage form, 25-hydroxyvitamin D. When we are deficient in magnesium, we not only produce less parathyroid hormone, but even what we do produce fails to work properly. This resistance to parathyroid hormone appears to result from the failure of at least four different categories of biochemical reactions that are needed to support the hormone. Without properly functioning parathyroid hormone, our kidneys fail to fully activate the storage form of vitamin D to its hormone form, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D. On top of all of this, even fully activated vitamin D fails to function properly when we are deficient in magnesium, probably because all of the proteins it controls are at least indirectly dependent on the mineral. This cascade of biochemical failures ultimately depresses calcium absorption, and obtaining sufficient magnesium from food or supplements is the only remedy that will restore calcium levels to normal.

Not only do we fail to absorb enough calcium when we are deficient in magnesium, we also fail to put calcium where it belongs.22 Over 99 percent of the calcium in our body belongs outside of our cells, primarily in our bones and teeth. While only a small amount is found in our blood at any given moment, it is our blood that provides calcium to our bones and teeth where the bulk of it is stored. Only a small portion of calcium belongs inside our soft tissue cells. Our cells keep this small amount in storage vesicles, and release it when needed to stimulate certain functions such as muscular contraction.

Magnesium is needed to utilize the most basic energy currency of our cells, ATP, which is in turn needed to activate the pumps and channels that maintain the proper distribution of calcium and other minerals within our cells. When we are deficient in magnesium, our cells accumulate sodium and lose potassium. The potassium is lost in our urine, while the sodium draws excess calcium into the cell. In the absence of magnesium, our cells are unable to store calcium in the appropriate vesicles. The accumulation of calcium within our cells robs calcium from the blood, which means less calcium is available to our bones and teeth. This total failure of mineral metabolism contributes to excessive excitation of nerves and muscles, disturbances in the rhythm of the heart, a tendency of the blood to clot too much, and poor mineralization of the bones and teeth.
Synergy and Context

The human body is a biological system characterized by astounding complexity. Nutrients often cooperate with one another to produce vibrant health. Quite often when one or more nutrients is missing, others may appear to contribute to disease. Methionine from muscle meats may appear to contribute to disease, for example, when the B vitamins, choline, and glycine found in bones, skin, organ meats, egg yolks, legumes, and leafy greens are absent. Vitamins A and D may each appear to contribute to disease when the other is absent. In the absence of other nutrients such as magnesium, some nutrients such as vitamin D and calcium may simply fail to function at all. The complex biology that makes the human body tick may operate very differently in the context of a diet rich in magnesium than in the context of a diet poor in magnesium.

Nutrient-dense, traditionally balanced diets, however, provide all of these nutrients together so that they synergize with one another to nourish our bodies to health and protect them from harm. Rather than seeking dietary villains from among our most ancient traditional foods to blame for our most recent modern diseases, we should elaborate our understanding of how the many components within successful traditional diets work together to promote radiant and vibrant health.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Laura said:
I've given some thought to the bowel issues some of us have had. ...

So, what to do? Obviously, it isn't natural to need to take large amounts of magnesium or vitamin C to induce a flushing action. Maybe a salt water flush would work for some? Like one or two big glasses full of salted water? Or not?

Another thing that occurs to me is that dogs and cats do appear to eat some vegetable matter occasionally for what appear to be medicinal reasons relating to getting their digestive tracts activated. Maybe that is a clue? But what kind of vegetable matter would be appropriate?

...

BUT, the introduction of a dish of green peas appears to have been moderately beneficial though it is obvious that it would not be something to eat every day because it, too, produced irritation.

And maybe that is the key? To find something that only slightly irritates the digestive tract once or twice a week like critters do when they eat grass and other green things? That or do the salt water flushes which might have been natural to humans at some point in their evolutionary history when they spent a lot of time in water diving for clams and oysters?

One solution to the use of green vegetables, and/or salt water for flushing may be eating sea vegetables, such as:

Irish Moss (magnesium)
Wakame (Vit C)
Kelp (Vit C)
Hijiki (hign fibre, 20% protein)
Kombu (Vit C, magnesium,high protein)
Nori (50% protein)
Sea Palm
Bladderwrack
Dulse (high protein)
Arame

This may help, or not.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

if you eat zero carbs, then your gut bacteria can't react with the food that much because there is not much oxygen available.. maybe that has to do with gut issues.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Odyssey said:
Several sources have indicated that eating protein above @23grams per meal will convert the excess into glucose as the body only uses small amounts at a time. It's better to divide your protein throughout the day. This is discussed throughout the thread. Also see Primal Body, Primal Mind for more on this.
If this is true, then for a person that has successfully switched to ketones for fuel ,no glucose and eat lots of proteins daily, to what is converted the excess? Not glucose?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

emilien512 said:
Odyssey said:
Several sources have indicated that eating protein above @23grams per meal will convert the excess into glucose as the body only uses small amounts at a time. It's better to divide your protein throughout the day. This is discussed throughout the thread. Also see Primal Body, Primal Mind for more on this.
If this is true, then for a person that has successfully switched to ketones for fuel ,no glucose and eat lots of proteins daily, to what is converted the excess? Not glucose?

Yes, the excess protein is converted to glucose, as Odyssey said. It happens in a process called neoglucogenesis. That's why it's important to not eat TOO much protein at any one meal. And the "ideal" ketogenic diet, at least how it's been working for me all this time, is to have about 75% to 85% of daily calories as fat and the rest as protein. FWIW.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

SeekinTruth said:
emilien512 said:
Odyssey said:
Several sources have indicated that eating protein above @23grams per meal will convert the excess into glucose as the body only uses small amounts at a time. It's better to divide your protein throughout the day. This is discussed throughout the thread. Also see Primal Body, Primal Mind for more on this.
If this is true, then for a person that has successfully switched to ketones for fuel ,no glucose and eat lots of proteins daily, to what is converted the excess? Not glucose?

Yes, the excess protein is converted to glucose, as Odyssey said. It happens in a process called neoglucogenesis. That's why it's important to not eat TOO much protein at any one meal. And the "ideal" ketogenic diet, at least how it's been working for me all this time, is to have about 75% to 85% of daily calories as fat and the rest as protein. FWIW.

I have not encountered any direct evidence that "excess" protein produces excess neoglucogenesis. I have seen a "paleo rumor" to that effect, that a number of paleo authors and bloggers have commented about, dismissing it, but I know of no a priori basis for thinking that de novo glucose synthesis would overrun in the presence of larger amounts of protein. It is a closely regulated process which represents quite a bit of work for the liver, and it would surprise me if my liver worked overtime to produce something my body didn't want or need, unless something was badly broken.

I can say as well, from my own blood glucose monitoring, that I observe no increase there from eating additional protein, and I believe that an excess of glucose should indeed affect this level, just as excess dietary glucose does. If there is solid evidence to show that this does happen then fine, but in the mean time I don't go by what was said. I will continue to look for more information as I read, and report back anything useful that I come across, but the fact is that I need to be able to eat when I can and if I add in this particular kind of constraint then my diet can become unworkable.

I am in the process of spreading out the protein amounts somewhat across the day (taking into account my work/commute schedule), but my primary guide for getting enough but not too much of anything is my appetite, which directs me toward to eating a lot early in the day (after a 16-18 hour fast) and lesser amounts over the next 8 hours after that (i.e. meals at 16-4-4 or 18-6 hr. intervals). I would expect someone that used more energy than me might show a different pattern.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan said:
SeekinTruth said:
emilien512 said:
Odyssey said:
Several sources have indicated that eating protein above @23grams per meal will convert the excess into glucose as the body only uses small amounts at a time. It's better to divide your protein throughout the day. This is discussed throughout the thread. Also see Primal Body, Primal Mind for more on this.
If this is true, then for a person that has successfully switched to ketones for fuel ,no glucose and eat lots of proteins daily, to what is converted the excess? Not glucose?

Yes, the excess protein is converted to glucose, as Odyssey said. It happens in a process called neoglucogenesis. That's why it's important to not eat TOO much protein at any one meal. And the "ideal" ketogenic diet, at least how it's been working for me all this time, is to have about 75% to 85% of daily calories as fat and the rest as protein. FWIW.

I have not encountered any direct evidence that "excess" protein produces excess neoglucogenesis. I have seen a "paleo rumor" to that effect, that a number of paleo authors and bloggers have commented about, dismissing it, but I know of no a priori basis for thinking that de novo glucose synthesis would overrun in the presence of larger amounts of protein. It is a closely regulated process which represents quite a bit of work for the liver, and it would surprise me if my liver worked overtime to produce something my body didn't want or need, unless something was badly broken.

I can say as well, from my own blood glucose monitoring, that I observe no increase there from eating additional protein, and I believe that an excess of glucose should indeed affect this level, just as excess dietary glucose does. If there is solid evidence to show that this does happen then fine, but in the mean time I don't go by what was said. I will continue to look for more information as I read, and report back anything useful that I come across, but the fact is that I need to be able to eat when I can and if I add in this particular kind of constraint then my diet can become unworkable.

I can say from personal experience that excess protein certainly seems to be converted into glucose. When I was eating protein ad libitum while doing zero carb I started to have blood sugar regulation issues. I would get the familiar sugar-burner, low blood sugar signals if I missed a meal or had to wait longer than expected before I could eat. Food was still an obsession and I actually got teased at work because I was overly attendant to the break schedule. Dropping protein and getting myself properly into ketosis ended all of this.

I can't think of another explanation other than that the high amounts of protein I was eating was being converted to glucose.

FWIW.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

dugdeep said:
...
I can say from personal experience that excess protein certainly seems to be converted into glucose. When I was eating protein ad libitum while doing zero carb I started to have blood sugar regulation issues. I would get the familiar sugar-burner, low blood sugar signals if I missed a meal or had to wait longer than expected before I could eat. Food was still an obsession and I actually got teased at work because I was overly attendant to the break schedule. Dropping protein and getting myself properly into ketosis ended all of this.

I can't think of another explanation other than that the high amounts of protein I was eating was being converted to glucose.

FWIW.

Did you even out the protein amount per meal, or did you reduce total protein?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan said:
I have not encountered any direct evidence that "excess" protein produces excess neoglucogenesis. I have seen a "paleo rumor" to that effect, that a number of paleo authors and bloggers have commented about, dismissing it, but I know of no a priori basis for thinking that de novo glucose synthesis would overrun in the presence of larger amounts of protein. It is a closely regulated process which represents quite a bit of work for the liver, and it would surprise me if my liver worked overtime to produce something my body didn't want or need, unless something was badly broken.

I can say as well, from my own blood glucose monitoring, that I observe no increase there from eating additional protein, and I believe that an excess of glucose should indeed affect this level, just as excess dietary glucose does.
Maybe the glucose acquired that wasnt needed got stored as glycogen?
The ability to do this might vary with individually.
And maybe those who are saturated and cannot store more, simply go hyperglycemia (diabetes at worse), which was maybe your case dugdeep?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen
Glycogen is a multibranched polysaccharide that serves as a form of energy storage in animals[2] and fungi. In humans, glycogen is made and stored primarily in the cells of the liver and the muscles, and functions as the secondary long-term energy storage (with the primary energy stores being fats held in adipose tissue).



dugdeep said:
I can't think of another explanation other than that the high amounts of protein I was eating was being converted to glucose.
Could you tell us what was your daily intake? At this time were you rather thin or ... ?


Also I found this :
http://paleohacks.com/questions/123355/do-carnivorous-animals-lions-cheetahs-etc-run-on-ketones-or#axzz2GY3OckDn
Do carnivorous animals run on ketones or do they run on a mixture of fat and glucose (gluconeogenesis)? Are they simply more efficient at converting protein to glucose than humans? Any information would be appreciated.

[
I just found this on felipedia.org "In cats, gluconeogenesis from amino acids is not downregulated even if protein intake is deficient. As a direct effect of a low carbohydrate intake under natural feeding conditions, cats have developed a high capacity for intensive gluconeogenesis from glucogenic amino acids[3]. The activity of gluconeogenic enzymes is much higher in cats than in dogs" – foreveryoungMay 29 at 14:18
]



Answer :

Glucose and ketones are complementary substrates for energy production in all mammals. Although we tend to associate them with "starvation" (or glucose starvation) in mammals, ketone bodies such as acetoacetate and β-hydroxybutyrate are produced by the liver, and tissues such as heart muscle routinely derive much of their metabolic energy from oxidation of these compounds.

"Any standard biochemistry textbook will point out that ketone bodies are routinely being used for fuel in cardiac and skeletal muscle of higher animals. The brain only uses ketone bodies when glucose supplies are very low, such as during starvation '"http://www.jbc.org/content/272/34/21151.full

My bet is that carnivores with very little glucose intake, fuel their central nervous system with a minority of gluconeogensis generated glucose and majority of ketones (as human would), but with advanced gluconeogenesis to supply glycogen for muscles (in humans this process is limited - it's pretty hard to do high intensisty explosive exercise fuelled by gluconeogenesis alone).

I'm pretty much guessing though...



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Could be nice to compare with the carnivorous animal kingdom.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Cats are not equipped to digest carbs properly; not that people don't ignorantly feed their pets tons of them to save money. I can't confirm that neoglucogenesis is regulated differently in cats but it does follow that that, eating a wild diet, cats would not need to shut it down when consuming carbs if they don't consume significant amounts carbs. As far as I know, it only shuts down in humans when dietary glucose meets or exceeds demand. (Although glucose demand by the brain depends in part on ketone supply and degree of keto adaptation -- including muscular adaptation to prefer fats over ketones -- which adds another wrinkle.)

Each species of mammal has differing dietary requirements. It is possible to draw useful conclusions from studying other mammals, but the differences must be taken into account. Sometimes the differences tell us more than the similarities.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I would like to ask whether sugar intolerance symptoms e.g. pain in the liver, in the abdominal area, digestive problems, nausea etc. after sugar intake (I mean from a very small amount of fruits) signifies that your body is in ketosis. I'm not asking this question in general, but rather trying to seek an answer in my case. Therefore some information concerning my diet:
- I normally do not consume more than 20 gr. of carbs per day (usually about 10)
Yesterday was very rare occasion, when I ate cake with a large amount of nuts and dates, and the my sugar intolerance symptoms appears.
- Occasionally when I go to visit my parents, my carbs intake is much higher. (I do not get the same symptoms that I have from sugars, but I do experience digestive problems and little stomach aches)
- My normal protein intake is not regular throughout the day, e.g. I may eat less than 5 grams of proteins in one meal and eat as much as 60gr of proteins during my next meal. But all my meals are very highly in lard, for example during a meal i can eat cutlets made of minced pork with minced pig fat (salo) accompanied by high-fat broth (it is broth with extra fat added).
- I also, at times may only eat one meal per day, and fulfill my body needs.

Also I'd like to ask whether physical exercises which I have recently started to do will help my body sent the proteins to the muscle tissue instead.
I'd like to note, that the exercises that I've do for the last week have help me to gain 3-4 kg without any change in my diet. And it is very surprising because I do really simple exercises that last approx. 25 minutes with breaks in between. What is even more surprising that have been always been a challenge for me to gain weight very easy to lose weight unintentionally.
BTW, one of the reasons I took up the exercises was that my body "ask" for it. And now the need to exercise is even higher.

I understand it is rather individual, but I curious if there any clear signals that would indicate that i'm no-longer in ketosis, because i'm worried about my yesterday’s sugar intake interrupting with it. And how fast can the body leave the ketosis state if you have been in it for quite a while and suddenly for 1 or 2 days you eat a high amount of sugar/carbs.
 

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