Libya Revolution
- Thread starter Cosmos
- Start date
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
Maybe it is not so good to believe to much to western media, or western paid media. They often tend to distort things a "little", or sway them for their own agendas. Don't forget that British Petroleum is big player in Libya too.
I live in Serbia, which had some 2000 people working in Libya, mostly in the hospitals and in the military logistic. As our media says some of them will return tonight via regular airline flight Tripoli-Belgrade (also Montenegro is sending ship to Sirt, for Montenegrins, Russians, Serbs and Turks) , but most of them who works in the health department seem to chose to stay. Some of them talked via regular phone in the news and say that situation in Tripoli is quiet, no fightings in the street, stores are working, no bloodshed, no wounded and dead lying around, army is not on the streets . . . etc.
Overall reports from the people that have came back home said that situation is not so bad as they have seen in the western media, and that biggest fear they have from gangs and criminals if police or army falls apart.
I live in Serbia, which had some 2000 people working in Libya, mostly in the hospitals and in the military logistic. As our media says some of them will return tonight via regular airline flight Tripoli-Belgrade (also Montenegro is sending ship to Sirt, for Montenegrins, Russians, Serbs and Turks) , but most of them who works in the health department seem to chose to stay. Some of them talked via regular phone in the news and say that situation in Tripoli is quiet, no fightings in the street, stores are working, no bloodshed, no wounded and dead lying around, army is not on the streets . . . etc.
Overall reports from the people that have came back home said that situation is not so bad as they have seen in the western media, and that biggest fear they have from gangs and criminals if police or army falls apart.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
oh really ?
on the news here I saw a few, coming back and they told about gun shooting and dead people.
some say it was the most disturbing thing they ever saw.
I guess there are areas where more is going on, than in other areas.
so it could be that the media pick just the ones, who saw something?
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
Since I live where I live I have learned to not believe anyone, especially western (western European, US, anglo-saxon ruled . . . ) media. They usually have their own agendas or doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. Remember chemical, biological and nuclear weapons in Iraq, for example?
I also understand that those concepts are a little difficult to grasp for average western man (or woman, of course :)), since they are convinced that they are living as free people in best and safest places that can exist nowadays in our world. Which of course can be quite opposite. Slave who believe that he is not slave will never be free just because he cant realize that he in a fact is not free. People in Arab states maybe can realize that more easily thanks to the conditions in which they live, and thus being in much better position than "average" western man.
Of course, I don't speak from personal experience from Libya, just say what people who has just came from there are saying, and that is mostly for Tripoli. They also said that smaller groups in small working settlements in the deserts were already attacked and robed by the gangs. That doesn't mean that in other parts there are no horrible things as reported in (mostly) western medias. But being reported by western media makes me give them few minuses and disbeliefs in start. That's all.
I also understand that those concepts are a little difficult to grasp for average western man (or woman, of course :)), since they are convinced that they are living as free people in best and safest places that can exist nowadays in our world. Which of course can be quite opposite. Slave who believe that he is not slave will never be free just because he cant realize that he in a fact is not free. People in Arab states maybe can realize that more easily thanks to the conditions in which they live, and thus being in much better position than "average" western man.
Of course, I don't speak from personal experience from Libya, just say what people who has just came from there are saying, and that is mostly for Tripoli. They also said that smaller groups in small working settlements in the deserts were already attacked and robed by the gangs. That doesn't mean that in other parts there are no horrible things as reported in (mostly) western medias. But being reported by western media makes me give them few minuses and disbeliefs in start. That's all.
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Arbitrium Liberum said:
This may be the truth, but I fail to see how it relates directly to whether or not people are being killed in Libya. It seems that in attempting to balance your view you've wandered over into an area of ignoring the myriad reports of terrible violence from other eyewitnesses. There are many people who have just left there reporting massive violence - are you implying that they are all lying and that there are no killings in Libya? Why did the jet fighters fly to Malta?
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
anart said:
It does not. But relates to what I'm referring, which is that the media can be, was, and are, wrong in many cases and accounts.
anart said:
You could see it like that. I see it as "don't believe everything what they say", and I mean the media.
anart said:
No. Are you sure that all of them are telling the truth? And no one amongst them telling what they believe to be the truth, but which might not be the truth itself? And all of that filtered through the media.
anart said:
How could I know that? Everything that I say could be just speculations. They said because they don't want to shoot on people, maybe that is true, maybe they just use situation to flee from the country. Only them could know that.
All I say is don't trust what media says, especially western media, and today there is not left many of them that are not "western". I know how it is when western bombers flies above you and in the same time you are looking at CNN reporting that they just destroyed main army barrack in city "that and that", well nice, but in that case I must be dead, because I live across the place, or that there is "another" (very important because implies that there is more . . . ) mass grave on spot "that and that", well there is nothing on spot "that and that". and so on . . .
Of course that people don't lie, but it is question how someone sees the "bad' situation, obviously that Pashalis, for instance, and I, don't have the same "vision" of bad situation. I will dare to say that I personaly think that people from western countries are a bit spoiled and naive because of their relatively good lives, and because of that are prone to see situations little bit different. I'm not judging them as bad for that, I understand that. There are more than one or two sides in whole story.
When I see something on the news my line of thinking is something like this: there is good part of it that are just lies, then good part of plain speculations based on innuendos and facts that cant be proved, and of course smaller part of true facts.
I was looking for the news on the internet, and noticed that it seems that the whole world is against Gadafi but interesting is that most of the videos of violence and looting are from liberated parts, and people talking about violence are mostly evacuated from those parts.
Everything is in big red flashing headlines like: "Warplanes Launch Airstrikes on Demonstrators in Tripoli".
In the era of the mobile phones with cameras there are no footage of actual plane flying above protesters and bombing them, even from a distance? No one filmed screams, blood? I did a search on google and youtube, and only can find headlines and some footages showing "something", like "group of people on the streets", "little child in the hospital", "two suspiciously looking guys on a civilian truck full of rocket launchers", but no plane flying and killing people. Its all something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsxc0BcX03s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOeP5zGASSk
Videos doesn't follow the story. They are talking about killings, monstrosities, graves, in the most touching, dramatic style where are rare people that can stay immune of that.
Then headlines such: "Libyan army, police and snipers kills people on the streets". Where are they exactly on the videos? Why there is no any Libyan policeman or soldier on the videos? Again very vague footages. For difference we saw everything from the headlines in videos from Egypt. Where are the videos from the foreign workers that was evacuated from Libya, from few thousand of them someone must had phone with camera, and some of them would film something?
Anart, if I am sounding maybe harsh or rude I am apologizing, that is not my intention. Also I'm not implying anything, I don't know enough for implying anything. Don't attacking or defending anyone (Gadafi, god forbid). I'm just trying to use my brain and not my emotions, and of course trying not to be "taken by" the media.
Hello Arbitrium Liberum,
It is hard to have videos from Libya because the press is controled there. However, you can see a few videos on youtube who show the executed soldiers and dead people.
It is not easy to know exactly what is going on. The major information is coming from the hundrds and soon thousands of refugies. They all talk about the terror of the mercenaries and the militias. This is perhaps new for a lot of people, but Libya has been known for a long time in North Africa for this functionning (no North African never goes there!). Kadhafi used mercenaries for a long time and now it is just that there are more and more entering Libya because of the promised money for the killing of protesters (i have this info from north-african friends, but i cannot confirm it). Libya has been for long the best friend of the west (UK, France, Italy...) even if they were more or less ashamed to show it publicly, but everybody knew that in the region. Kadhafi does not consider himself as the president or the king of Libya, he's the owner. The oligarchy there is very brutal and we hear only about what happens in the biggest cities. Nobody knows what is happening is small towns and villages where the local police/armed gangs reigns by the way of terror.
Sometimes the media create or exagerate things, but in the case of the mentally mad Kadhafi, they don't need to, he fulfills their wildest psychopathic fantasms, and that's why they like him.
It is hard to have videos from Libya because the press is controled there. However, you can see a few videos on youtube who show the executed soldiers and dead people.
It is not easy to know exactly what is going on. The major information is coming from the hundrds and soon thousands of refugies. They all talk about the terror of the mercenaries and the militias. This is perhaps new for a lot of people, but Libya has been known for a long time in North Africa for this functionning (no North African never goes there!). Kadhafi used mercenaries for a long time and now it is just that there are more and more entering Libya because of the promised money for the killing of protesters (i have this info from north-african friends, but i cannot confirm it). Libya has been for long the best friend of the west (UK, France, Italy...) even if they were more or less ashamed to show it publicly, but everybody knew that in the region. Kadhafi does not consider himself as the president or the king of Libya, he's the owner. The oligarchy there is very brutal and we hear only about what happens in the biggest cities. Nobody knows what is happening is small towns and villages where the local police/armed gangs reigns by the way of terror.
Sometimes the media create or exagerate things, but in the case of the mentally mad Kadhafi, they don't need to, he fulfills their wildest psychopathic fantasms, and that's why they like him.
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
And Iraq had nuclear and chemical weapons . . . You don't believe it? But they said it on TV!
It is best to wait and see, but I already know the scenario. Libyan infrastructure probably will be bombed by American-British alliance for "humanitarian" reasons. Terrain is already being prepared with "thousands of dead and genocide". US will bring freedom in another country . . .
Poor country, I'm feeling so sorry for them
It is best to wait and see, but I already know the scenario. Libyan infrastructure probably will be bombed by American-British alliance for "humanitarian" reasons. Terrain is already being prepared with "thousands of dead and genocide". US will bring freedom in another country . . .
Poor country, I'm feeling so sorry for them
A friend from childhood was in Libya with military intelligence during the Vietnam era. He was training Libyan military and Lt. Col. Moammar Kadafi was selected and groomed as a US intelligence asset and placed in power in 1969. I recall this story from the days when Ronald Reagan bombed Libya 1986.
As I write these words CBS News says the US military may occupy Libya to protect the protesters from the madman whom they groomed as the villain in the Libyan Theater of Operations. The USD control mechanism is collapsing and the embattled empire resorts to war by other means. It has many hidden cards to play in The Game Theory War for the soul of humanity.
As I write these words CBS News says the US military may occupy Libya to protect the protesters from the madman whom they groomed as the villain in the Libyan Theater of Operations. The USD control mechanism is collapsing and the embattled empire resorts to war by other means. It has many hidden cards to play in The Game Theory War for the soul of humanity.
Arbitrium Liberum, nothing is completely black nor completely white. Remember that a lie needs some truth in order to be reliable.
The massacre stories from Libya do not come from the western media, they come from the Arab media and from the refugees going to Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt and probably to the southern countries as well. The EU is expecting refugees in the near future as well. There is probably some twist from the western media, that's sure, and nothing happens in politics from nothing. I know for example that something is under preparation in other North African countries and it comes from the usual spin doctors. It is just that the fields of forces are moving, the big bodyguards of yesterday (mostly the USA) are no more credible, so a new oligarchy is aiming to replace the old one. That's for the geo-strategic part. However, that doesn't negate completely what can happen on the field. It doesn't mean that the massacres are invented. In fact, knowing how things happen there, i tend to think that they are understated (people are reporting raids from the militias to steal the dead and the injured from the hospitals).
The massacres are very probable when one considers the glimpse of how power is organized there (clans, military police, secret police, tribes, gangs, mercenaries, etc.), and that's what we expected with some friends from the same generation as i am, before the first reports.
So yes, one has to be careful with what the media reports, but not just by turning blindly everything into its contrary, because even the lies of the media contain some truth, and by inverting everything one turns those truths into lies.
In your example, the report WMDs of Iraq was a lie but the report of the bombings on Baghdad was true. Being careful is to analyse data and see which is which, not rejecting everything blindly.
The massacre stories from Libya do not come from the western media, they come from the Arab media and from the refugees going to Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt and probably to the southern countries as well. The EU is expecting refugees in the near future as well. There is probably some twist from the western media, that's sure, and nothing happens in politics from nothing. I know for example that something is under preparation in other North African countries and it comes from the usual spin doctors. It is just that the fields of forces are moving, the big bodyguards of yesterday (mostly the USA) are no more credible, so a new oligarchy is aiming to replace the old one. That's for the geo-strategic part. However, that doesn't negate completely what can happen on the field. It doesn't mean that the massacres are invented. In fact, knowing how things happen there, i tend to think that they are understated (people are reporting raids from the militias to steal the dead and the injured from the hospitals).
The massacres are very probable when one considers the glimpse of how power is organized there (clans, military police, secret police, tribes, gangs, mercenaries, etc.), and that's what we expected with some friends from the same generation as i am, before the first reports.
So yes, one has to be careful with what the media reports, but not just by turning blindly everything into its contrary, because even the lies of the media contain some truth, and by inverting everything one turns those truths into lies.
In your example, the report WMDs of Iraq was a lie but the report of the bombings on Baghdad was true. Being careful is to analyse data and see which is which, not rejecting everything blindly.
go2 said:
I remember the bombing of 1986 (ok, i was at school but everybody was talking about it). When the US planes crossed the Italian-French border to bomb Tripoli, the Libyan military had just received the latest sovietic anti-air defense system and detectors for the AWACS planes. The military engineers did not switch it on during the attack (i guess they latter said that they did not understand the notice in Russian :D ). Some say that they made it easy for the USA planes on purpose. However, it was a great push for Kadhafi's power as he presented himself as a martyr, cursing the west in his discourses (which became legendary in North Africa and probably in all Arabic-speaking countries) but worked against his people in reality.
mkrnhr said:
mkrnhr, I see you mention a new oligarchy emerges from the decline of US power. Perhaps, the same oligarchy is transnational, abandoning the ruined USA as a vehicle for their empire. It seems these "writers of the script" search for a new Saladin as a double agent to lead the yearnings for Ummah on behalf of the masters of deception.
Yes it is very likely. Moreover, the PTB is very aware of the coming catastrophes and of the Muslim prophecies of the end of the world (the end of the world signs became the subject of not only the religious but also the secular!), so it is possible that they are putting some pieces where they fit on the chess board for some "mission" in the near future. The actual events follow undoubtedly a script, even if it uses the energy of people's frustration and suffering and channelize it.go2 said:
Edit: p.s. Saladin in Arabic means something like the "goodness of the religion", but phonetically it means also "repare of the debt", so who knows what it may symbolically mean..
