Libya Revolution
- Thread starter Cosmos
- Start date
axj said:
Even though he's a nut, I found his use of the Bin Laden excuse humorous. I assumed it was a little dig at Western governments and their use of the bin laden and 'Muslim terrorirsm' to further their political objectives. Basically, "hey, if you guys can use bin laden as an excuse to kill people, then so can I."
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
And don't drink nescafe, its drugged! ;D
I'm folowing this page on the facebook
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_113214335421096
Members are Serbs in Libya and talking where they are, how are they, whats situation, will they be evacuated etc. Also saying that situation is not so dark and bloody as on TV, don't believe them too much.
Anyway, people who are in Tripoli says that Gadafi is popping silly comments on TV and seem to have great fun.
I'm folowing this page on the facebook
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_113214335421096
Members are Serbs in Libya and talking where they are, how are they, whats situation, will they be evacuated etc. Also saying that situation is not so dark and bloody as on TV, don't believe them too much.
Anyway, people who are in Tripoli says that Gadafi is popping silly comments on TV and seem to have great fun.
un chien anadolu
Jedi Master
Arbitrium Liberum said:
Arbitrium Liberum said:
Hi Arbitrium Liberum,
Are you sure about this ? Because as far as I know also there are many Serbs in Libya working for Gaddafi as mercenaries and mostly as snipers etc. Do you know each person in that facebook group personally so that you can assume this information source is more reliable than western media ?
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
un chien anadolu said:
And how do you know that? Are you sure that source that tell you that is reliable? What is your source? I know for instance that many of them are working with turks for Russian railroad in Libya. And that many of them evacuated by Turks for Istanbul.
Any proof for that, any slightly sign of proof?
Is your attention to offend or insult me personally, or something like that? Why? What is your goal with that, to shut me down, or what? Why?
I can give you two sources for your claims, Serbian sensationalist newspapers "Alo" and Kurir" (google for them and read for yourself).
Now, there are many ex-Yugoslav there because Yugoslav companies and also army companies really did mainly technical maintenance of Libyan army, also Iraqi, Indian (my uncle was engineer India in 1970s for instance). After Yugoslavia falls apart those jobs was taken over by firms in Serbia, Croatia, and some in Bosnia. They are doing that to this day. I personally know one man, who is mechanic, and worked some time in Libya maintaining their tanks, which Yugoslavia sold them during 70s and 80s, that makes him mercenary, sniper? Nowadays there was also other nations doing that because Serbian companies are mostly decayed during past 20 years.
There are also people from Serbia working for Turkish, Greek and Russian companies there.
Now please tell me, do you really "buy" everything that you see on TV? If so, god help us. I said what I think of the media, and said my reasons.
Main difference is that you "believe" them, while I know, I know the method, I lived that. Read the previous page. Do you maybe want it more elaborate for you, do you need some video or film material for things that I'm talking from personal experience, and you are talking just what you saw on TV. I'm ready to search some documentaries and materials (made even by the same western media) and send them to you.
When you calm down, since I can see that you are being emotionally taken with the media, which means that they got you exactly where they wanted you, can you tell me please do you know each person who works in the western media so that you can assume that they are more reliable that that facebook group?
Do you know serbo-croatian so that you understand what they are talking, are you give any effort to learn more of the mater, and also innuendos like you have presented as truth? Remember "you know"?
In the same maner that you have asked me about rumors from sensationalistic press, I can ask you, since you are Turk: Why did the Turkish state shielded trafficking of human organs? I'm telling specifically about hundreds kidnapped and killed Serbians and other non-Albanians at the Kosovo during last ten years. That is something well documented and also was done and proved by investigations from European Community. I will give only some of the links:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkey-detains-doctor-over-kosovo-organ-trafficking-report-2011-01-12
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/world/europe/04iht-organ04.html
http://www.kosovocompromise.com/cms/item/analysis/en.html?view=story&id=3327§ionId=2
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-12/world/kosovo.organs_1_organ-trafficking-human-organ-organ-trade?_s=PM:WORLD
http://www.ansamed.info/en/news/ME.XEF58708.html
Only thing that I can tell you is shame on you, and I am ashamed for being on the same forum together with you.
Pashalis said:
Pashalis, sorry. Didn't saw that till now. Will answer maybe in the morning. I am little bit shaken right now for that.
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Arbitrium Liberum said:
Obviously that's not his goal - why are you so emotional about this? You seem to take any source that is Serbian as truth and any other source as not - perhaps you are a bit identified with being Serbian and since this facebook group is Serbian it must be truth and to have it questioned is to have you questioned?
Seems like your emotions might be running your thinking.
A.L. said:
I think the reality here is that you are the one who needs to calm down. Why are you so identified with being correct in this situation? Or with your Serbian sources being correct?
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
anart said:
How can I know that that's not his goal? Sounds to me like that. How I can not be emotional when I know that there are people trapped there because of speculations like this? I am not that transcended you know. And yes I'm very sorry for Libyans too. They suffered from Gadafi and they will suffer now from others.
Why he hooked on "Serbian news", I just told about them because it happens that I know the language, if I knew Turkish language I would read Turkish news too.
anart said:
Really no. Please re read all that I wrote in this topic. I didn't wrote anything like that. I don't think that Serbian sources are correct. Well, those Serbian sources even "invented" Serbian mercenaries, I have already told that.
That facebook group has nothing special in it. People are saying to their families things like "I am there and there", "call my son on number "that and that" and say him that I'm well", "we from the ship Sveti Stefan are now near Malta", things like that. And most of them are in provisional camps with other foreign workers and waiting to be evacuated.
Can that be reliable source of information? Where I claimed that group is, or any other source that I have write about? I never said "reliable source" or that I am believing any media (yes, especially not western). Fact is that media in Serbia tell the same news as any other. I really didn't claimed any source or any news to be true, I just wrote what I have heard or saw in media (and that facebook group for example) without any further reinterpretation of it from my side, just because I'm afraid that I might mis-interpretate it. When un chien anadolu did reinterpretate and mis-understood my post on his own way.
I just wanted to reply to Pashalis post which seamed emotional, and to say "Dont trust everything that you see on the media, most of that are just manipulations".
From personal experience (as I have already told) I know that western are the worse, when someone on TV says that something happens in your backyard and you see with your own eyes that its just lie, you learn not to trust them.
anart said:
That is true now.
anart said:
I'm not identified with being correct, but I'm worried that I might be misunderstood. And now I think I am being misunderstood. How that came to this? I was very cautious with what I'm writing just because of that. I'm now really regretting that I wrote anything on this topic.
I will write it again in short:
I'm not claiming than any source is correct.
I was writing things exactly like I was hearing them, without any further reinterpretation from my side.
With all that I have wrote I just wanted to say that I think that news are mostly lies, manipulations, deliberate or non-deliberate misinterpretations.
Especially news which came from western media such as CNN, BBC, SKY and similar.
I am claiming that I know that based on personal experience.
To clarify more, when I say "news" I think on all news and informations not just news about Libya, I think on news all around the world on any subject.
Also I am saying that I personally don't trust any media, and before believing anything, I prefer to think about it first.
Again, please re-read all that I have wrote in this topic.
living in neighboring country of Libya I can say with certainty things are very bad there, maybe even worse then you think. It is a civil war.
This is based on the accounts of people who started trickling in during last week.
Of course Libya is big country and there are pockets where the things are still quiet, especially where the oil compounds are (most foreigners in Libya are there). Maybe this is why reports of some foreigners who are still there are not very realistic.
I think EU doesn't really want to see Gadaffi going after they gave him couple of euro billions to keep illegal immigration from Africa at bay. Italy and Malta have especially high stake in this.
This is based on the accounts of people who started trickling in during last week.
Of course Libya is big country and there are pockets where the things are still quiet, especially where the oil compounds are (most foreigners in Libya are there). Maybe this is why reports of some foreigners who are still there are not very realistic.
I think EU doesn't really want to see Gadaffi going after they gave him couple of euro billions to keep illegal immigration from Africa at bay. Italy and Malta have especially high stake in this.
un chien anadolu
Jedi Master
Arbitrium Liberum said:
I am not 100% sure for anything. I haven't been there. That's why I asked you a question and used the phrase "as far as I know". You need to calm down.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
Google it. You can find many proofs. Also it's not a new or recent thing what I'm talking about that Gaddafi has an army of mercenaries and many Serbs work in that army since 90's. Also see above.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
Short answer : No. Why do you think like that. Which part of my post made you think that I am trying to offend or insult you ? You really need to calm down.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
I didn't say that there aren't any ex-Yugoslav or Serbs working in Libya in hospitals, railroads, charity orgs etc. I said " ..Because as far as I know also there are many Serbs in Libya working for Gaddafi as mercenaries and mostly as snipers etc.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
I don't buy everything that I see in TV but God knows sometimes I fail. But at least I know that a certain part of what I know is disinfo. On the other hand it seems to me that you've created a simple logic: "I don't buy anything that I see on TV but I trust a facebook group consisting of 750 people (or so) as a source of true information." So maybe you are right and that's why I asked you simply " Do you know each person in that facebook group personally ?"
Arbitrium Liberum said:
I am quite calm. But I see you're not. So there is no point for me in struggling against your programs and emotions.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
Innuendos, what innuendos ? See all my replies above.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
Now this part is where you show your real intention. How do you know that I am a Turk ? Oh wait, so you looked at my profile and saw that I live in Turkey and decided that I am a Turk. If this is your thinking and analysis process even the most reliable information source won't work for you.
And besides what has this topic to do with organ trafficking ? And even it was why would I defend some psychos ? I see you have some national programs running. I advise you to get rid of them.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
I am not ashamed for being on the same forum together with you since I know many of us have issues, programs, buffers etc. I wouldn't judge you for one post only even though you used an offensive language .
Nevertheless sorry if my post offended you, I was under Bin Laden's influence ;D
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
un chien anadolu
Anadolia is in Turkey, thats why assumed that you must be Turkish. Beside that I remember your name and writings on this forum since you have registered, and your posts about Turkey. If your are not of Turkish nationality, or you just live in Turkey, excuse me, how could I knew that.
Believe and know what ever you want. Reply on your post I did write in emotional haste, indeed, but I have explained myself and my writings on this topic in the mine previous post (reply to anart's).
Anadolia is in Turkey, thats why assumed that you must be Turkish. Beside that I remember your name and writings on this forum since you have registered, and your posts about Turkey. If your are not of Turkish nationality, or you just live in Turkey, excuse me, how could I knew that.
Believe and know what ever you want. Reply on your post I did write in emotional haste, indeed, but I have explained myself and my writings on this topic in the mine previous post (reply to anart's).
un chien anadolu
Jedi Master
Arbitrium Liberum said:
Indeed I am from Turkey and I am Turkish, but it is not particularly a bad thing so no need to excuse. My point was something else, to show that you get your conclusions based on some solid assumptions. As mkrnhr stated earlier in this thread nothing is completely black nor completely white. You said " And Iraq had nuclear and chemical weapons . . . You don't believe it? But they said it on TV!"
Saddam did have chemical weapons and he killed thousands of Kurd citizens in his country with these weapons in 80's, 90's. And yes we know that by the time of Iraq invasion he had no nuclear weapons or anything that could be a threat to West or Israel and this was a lie made up by neocons, Israel and MSM. So nothing is completely black or white.
Arbitrium Liberum said:
On the contrary I suggest you not to believe what you want.
Yes, in general Europeans working in North African countries are completely isolated from population. They live in state-sponsored bubbles. And as mentioned somewhere, many foreigner work with the military or with the oil industry so they are a highly questionable source.
These foreigners have two main reasons to lie: in order to protect an eventual return to their paradisiac job, and in order to avoid the shame of having lived at the expanse of other people's suffering. So they say that everything is not as bad as it is. They create their own reality in a way.
Gaddafi's use of foreign mercenaries is a well known fact in North Africa. These facts have been covered up by western media while it is a well known fact among the populations for at least twenty years. So do not believe western TV when they say that everything is okay in Libya :D
FWIW I tried to verify the story about Serbian mercenaries in Libya with two very reliable sources.
None of them confirmed this story to be true.
While there are undoubtedly Serbian mercenaries involved in different African countries ( The fact that there are as many French, Irish, English and German mercenary soldiersin different third world countries tells me that this singling out of Serbs might be manipulative on different levels ); according to my sources anyone who knows situation in Lybia would know that this country would hardly need mercenaries from foreign countries, the tribal divisions there are very deep and if the regime wanted to execute the killings they could source enough human resources in their own country.
None of them confirmed this story to be true.
While there are undoubtedly Serbian mercenaries involved in different African countries ( The fact that there are as many French, Irish, English and German mercenary soldiersin different third world countries tells me that this singling out of Serbs might be manipulative on different levels ); according to my sources anyone who knows situation in Lybia would know that this country would hardly need mercenaries from foreign countries, the tribal divisions there are very deep and if the regime wanted to execute the killings they could source enough human resources in their own country.
Nević Nenad
The Living Force
@un chien anadolu
OK, can two of us stop that "believe, don't believe"? I will stop it from my side :)
I don't think that assumptions can be solid, in that case they wont be assumptions :)
I understand. Your point taken. But I was sincerely hoping when I wrote all of that on this topic, that I'm not dealing with assumptions, maybe in all of that "hoping and be careful about that" I was indeed dealing with them. You know I cant yet successfully watch everything from a side.
With my writings I didn't wanted to proof anything, any source reliability or similar. Just wanted to say "don't trust the media", its better to think before accepting, because I agree that all is not just black or white.
You said:
And you are correct.
But, earlier you also said:
Which is also generalization based on assumptions. You made a link with my writings and that, while they are not linked. Looks like you are asking me why I should defend some psychos. While I don't think I should, you got that idea on your own (if you had it).
While it is not offensive, I find that writing is not very considerative of you.
Is that a catch 22 ;D
@Herr Eisenheim
Try "Alo" and "Kurir".
Fact is that Yugoslav, now Serbian, and also Croatian and Bosnian army had cooperation with Libyan army. But that doesn't mean that they were "mercenaries and snipers, killers". They are mainly logistic stuff and technical maintenance, the same as many other armies. That is very well known and prover-able fact. That is also on official sites of Serbian army.
It is also very well know that real killers and mercenaries in Congo during 1990's really was Bosnian Serbs. Nothing new on that. But that singling out of Serbs in this situation is really what strucks me (not just when un chien anadolu wrote it, and he didn't thought nothing bad with that). That why I reacted like that.
I mean why? Is Serbia next? Again!?
OK, can two of us stop that "believe, don't believe"? I will stop it from my side :)
un chien anadolu said:
I don't think that assumptions can be solid, in that case they wont be assumptions :)
I understand. Your point taken. But I was sincerely hoping when I wrote all of that on this topic, that I'm not dealing with assumptions, maybe in all of that "hoping and be careful about that" I was indeed dealing with them. You know I cant yet successfully watch everything from a side.
With my writings I didn't wanted to proof anything, any source reliability or similar. Just wanted to say "don't trust the media", its better to think before accepting, because I agree that all is not just black or white.
You said:
un chien anadolu said:
And you are correct.
But, earlier you also said:
un chien anadolu said:
Which is also generalization based on assumptions. You made a link with my writings and that, while they are not linked. Looks like you are asking me why I should defend some psychos. While I don't think I should, you got that idea on your own (if you had it).
While it is not offensive, I find that writing is not very considerative of you.
mkrnhr said:
Is that a catch 22 ;D
@Herr Eisenheim
Herr Eisenheim said:
Try "Alo" and "Kurir".
Fact is that Yugoslav, now Serbian, and also Croatian and Bosnian army had cooperation with Libyan army. But that doesn't mean that they were "mercenaries and snipers, killers". They are mainly logistic stuff and technical maintenance, the same as many other armies. That is very well known and prover-able fact. That is also on official sites of Serbian army.
It is also very well know that real killers and mercenaries in Congo during 1990's really was Bosnian Serbs. Nothing new on that. But that singling out of Serbs in this situation is really what strucks me (not just when un chien anadolu wrote it, and he didn't thought nothing bad with that). That why I reacted like that.
I mean why? Is Serbia next? Again!?