Life with Passive aggressive Personality Disorder

[mcb]

...I'm reading In Sheeps Clothing (just started it)- curious to see if he has ways of dealing with these psychological deviants. In the case of my ex, I had a choice to leave-but what if you come across these character disordered peeps in the workplace for example, and extricating oneself is not an option?

It can be difficult, and it happens to people here in the forum. It has happened to me, although it has been quite a number of years now. In the two worst instances I eventually lost my job, although I didn't know then much of what I know now.

 

[LQB]

What I am curious now to know, is how to deal with manipulative people, and the whole gas-lighting thing? I mean, how is it that these people can turn normal intelligent educated people into self-doubting, angry and feeling like they're losing their grip on sanity? What's their hook, and how do you prevent oneself from being manipulated by these types? More importantly, how do I teach my kids to protect themselves from the likes of their father?

Keep reading - Simon is telling you but everyone kind of needs to adapt the knowledge themselves.

 

[Buddy]

What I am curious now to know, is how to deal with manipulative people, and the whole gas-lighting thing? I mean, how is it that these people can turn normal intelligent educated people into self-doubting, angry and feeling like they're losing their grip on sanity? What's their hook, and how do you prevent oneself from being manipulated by these types? More importantly, how do I teach my kids to protect themselves from the likes of their father?

I agree with LQB's suggestion to just continue reading. If you can, try to find common denominators in the behavior patterns that you read about, sort of like how a Venn diagram shows where circles intersect or overlap.

Meanwhile, if you need answers to specific questions right away, you might find Dr. Simon's blog a helpful resource.

Here's a list of manipulation tactics:
http://counsellingresource.com/features/tag/series-on-manipulation-tactics/

Here's a post titled The Thinking Errors of the Disturbed Character:
http://counsellingresource.com/features/tag/series-on-thinking-errors/

And he maintains a popular "Ask the Psychologist" column here:
http://askthepsych.com/atp/author/drgeorge/

 

[Laura]

Re: Life with Mr Fifty Shades of messed up- Passive aggressive Personality Disorder

My ex's issues were from his early childhood-he doesn't fit the bill of OP, cluster A or B personality disorders. He was just deeply wounded as a child as a result of his family environment and then his mother abandoning him.

Yes, this is often the case. And one needs to remember, as Sandra Brown says: "You didn't break it and you can't fix it."

 

[Aiming]

Arwenn,

you might want to check the thread ´disturbing family weekend´ where I wrote about my own tendencies to be passive agressive. the thread also mentions some books on the topic that might be of interest to you.

Hi Jeremy,

I couldn't find that thread, although I did see a similar post of yours here: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,12484.msg203797.html#msg203797

Hi Arwenn, the thread Jeremy is talking about is in the section Family Life, which, like The Swamp section, is only accessible once a member has reached the number of 50 posts.

 

[Arwenn]

What I am curious now to know, is how to deal with manipulative people, and the whole gas-lighting thing? I mean, how is it that these people can turn normal intelligent educated people into self-doubting, angry and feeling like they're losing their grip on sanity? What's their hook, and how do you prevent oneself from being manipulated by these types? More importantly, how do I teach my kids to protect themselves from the likes of their father?

Keep reading - Simon is telling you but everyone kind of needs to adapt the knowledge themselves.

Hi LQB,

Finished the book last night (actually early this morning- couldn't put it down ) and you're right- that knowledge would need to be applied in your own way.

I find it interesting that Simon differentiates between Passive aggressive and Covert aggressive, both in behavior and as a character disorder. My ex definitely fit the criteria of passive aggressive, the self sabotage was so plainly evident and one of the most frustrating things about him.

As Simon says on his blog -manipulative-people.com,

Although both passive and covert aggression are both indirect means of aggression, the similarity ends there. What’s more, true passive-aggressive personalities are among the most self-defeating character types. But covertly aggressive people are very different. They are inordinately manipulative and often quite successful in gaining social power and influence because of how well they conceal their very “active” attempts to do others in. Perhaps I didn’t stress enough the “active” versus “passive” dimension of aggression. There are other dimensions as well, which I outline in both my books.

Even armed with this knowledge, I would have to be so vigilant in dealing with this petty tyrant. I'd have to be so careful of my little Is, (eg my self importance and hence the hurt to my pride in being accused of what HE is guilty of etc). I've found that being a minimalist in my conversations with him, stops him from using my words and my energy and throwing it back at me.

At the time that I was with him, I was naive (I assumed everyone had the same inner landscape as me), immature and emotionally dependent. Since having to raise my family and be respons-able for us all, and doing so, and doing it well, and still continuing on my inner journey, he doesn't have the same hook on me as before. I still have the 'Be Nice program' running, but I don't feel sorry or responsible for him like I used to.

Well, I'm glad I've come upon this stuff, at least it's a starting point.

 

[Arwenn]

What I am curious now to know, is how to deal with manipulative people, and the whole gas-lighting thing? I mean, how is it that these people can turn normal intelligent educated people into self-doubting, angry and feeling like they're losing their grip on sanity? What's their hook, and how do you prevent oneself from being manipulated by these types? More importantly, how do I teach my kids to protect themselves from the likes of their father?

I agree with LQB's suggestion to just continue reading. If you can, try to find common denominators in the behavior patterns that you read about, sort of like how a Venn diagram shows where circles intersect or overlap.

Meanwhile, if you need answers to specific questions right away, you might find Dr. Simon's blog a helpful resource.

Here's a list of manipulation tactics:
http://counsellingresource.com/features/tag/series-on-manipulation-tactics/

Here's a post titled The Thinking Errors of the Disturbed Character:
http://counsellingresource.com/features/tag/series-on-thinking-errors/

And he maintains a popular "Ask the Psychologist" column here:
http://askthepsych.com/atp/author/drgeorge/

There sure is a plethora of web info on this, and I've read some of Simons blogs. I think you're right about certain traits over-lapping in personality disorders, we tend to put them in clusters and group them, but perhaps they lie along a continuum? A Venn diagram would be a very good idea.

The thing is, as I posted above, I have changed, so he doesn't have the same hooks and his tactics don't work on me as well as they used to. So he tries to make himself as unpleasant a person to be around, and that in itself is draining. Ultimately, I need all my energy and resources to do my inner Work, let alone my Daily life! I'm grateful for the opportunity he's given me to learn about this (albeit after the fact, but I don't think I could have processed this whilst we were still together). I can totally relate to the morass of chaos & entropy these psychological deviants drag one down to, and quite frankly I've better things to put my time and energy to! :)

 

[Arwenn]

...I'm reading In Sheeps Clothing (just started it)- curious to see if he has ways of dealing with these psychological deviants. In the case of my ex, I had a choice to leave-but what if you come across these character disordered peeps in the workplace for example, and extricating oneself is not an option?

It can be difficult, and it happens to people here in the forum. It has happened to me, although it has been quite a number of years now. In the two worst instances I eventually lost my job, although I didn't know then much of what I know now.

Hi Megan,

Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently? And the brilliant way in which these psychological deviants co-opt people and distort reality is really quite something else - so how do you cope with this in the workplace? As Simon mentions in his book, you can only really change your behaviour and control your responses, but how does one deal with the fallout from colleagues or bosses having a distorted version of you that they believe whole-heartedly?

 

[Laura]

Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently? And the brilliant way in which these psychological deviants co-opt people and distort reality is really quite something else - so how do you cope with this in the workplace? As Simon mentions in his book, you can only really change your behaviour and control your responses, but how does one deal with the fallout from colleagues or bosses having a distorted version of you that they believe whole-heartedly?

It's a tough one. When I separated from my ex, everybody and his brother was onto me about "why are you divorcing such a nice guy?" They didn't know what life was like in our house, they only knew what he projected. So the one thing I would do different is, once I had an inkling of how things were, I would begin to strategically let other people know so that I would have more of a support network.

The problem is, as you noted, that we project onto others our own inner landscape and assume that they feel about things the same way we do. And so we keep trying to fix things, to twist ourselves up in knots to accommodate the "wounds" of this other. And I'm not so sure that being wounded is the cause of it. After many years perspective, dredging up and analyzing every piece of data, I'm inclined to think my ex was just born selfish and his mode of manifesting it as passive aggressive was molded by his strict (yet hypocritical) fundamentalist Christian upbringing. Because, in the end, he did not care enough about ANYTHING OR ANYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD to want to change even slightly. I don't think that attitude is one that develops via "wounding."

 

[LQB]

Even armed with this knowledge, I would have to be so vigilant in dealing with this petty tyrant. I'd have to be so careful of my little Is, (eg my self importance and hence the hurt to my pride in being accused of what HE is guilty of etc). I've found that being a minimalist in my conversations with him, stops him from using my words and my energy and throwing it back at me.

At the time that I was with him, I was naive (I assumed everyone had the same inner landscape as me), immature and emotionally dependent. Since having to raise my family and be respons-able for us all, and doing so, and doing it well, and still continuing on my inner journey, he doesn't have the same hook on me as before. I still have the 'Be Nice program' running, but I don't feel sorry or responsible for him like I used to.

My mental image of the covert aggressive is a shadow with raised knife in hand ready to bring it down violently at any opportunity (supplied by you). The armor you have is knowledge of self. But no amount of armor is going to change that shadow. Once you have taken the knife wounds, understood the source, and installed the vigilance, the lesson is over (imo) - and time to eliminate the shadow.

I agree with what Buddy implies - that the value in demarcation between covert and passive may be questionable. I'd prefer to leave that to Simon.

I think Laura said it best (of her ex):

It's a tough one. When I separated from my ex, everybody and his brother was onto me about "why are you divorcing such a nice guy?" They didn't know what life was like in our house, they only knew what he projected. So the one thing I would do different is, once I had an inkling of how things were, I would begin to strategically let other people know so that I would have more of a support network.

The problem is, as you noted, that we project onto others our own inner landscape and assume that they feel about things the same way we do. And so we keep trying to fix things, to twist ourselves up in knots to accommodate the "wounds" of this other. And I'm not so sure that being wounded is the cause of it. After many years perspective, dredging up and analyzing every piece of data, I'm inclined to think my ex was just born selfish and his mode of manifesting it as passive aggressive was molded by his strict (yet hypocritical) fundamentalist Christian upbringing. Because, in the end, he did not care enough about ANYTHING OR ANYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD to want to change even slightly. I don't think that attitude is one that develops via "wounding."

In the analogy I used above, the shadow is very selective about who gets the knife and who gets impression management - an attempt to constrain the movements of the "prey" (you). Based on my own experience, the CA does reveal him/herself by raising the knife on others in unique (and repeatable) circumstances involving no provocation on the part of the victim.

 

[Arwenn]

Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently? And the brilliant way in which these psychological deviants co-opt people and distort reality is really quite something else - so how do you cope with this in the workplace? As Simon mentions in his book, you can only really change your behaviour and control your responses, but how does one deal with the fallout from colleagues or bosses having a distorted version of you that they believe whole-heartedly?

It's a tough one. When I separated from my ex, everybody and his brother was onto me about "why are you divorcing such a nice guy?" They didn't know what life was like in our house, they only knew what he projected. So the one thing I would do different is, once I had an inkling of how things were, I would begin to strategically let other people know so that I would have more of a support network.

The problem is, as you noted, that we project onto others our own inner landscape and assume that they feel about things the same way we do. And so we keep trying to fix things, to twist ourselves up in knots to accommodate the "wounds" of this other. And I'm not so sure that being wounded is the cause of it. After many years perspective, dredging up and analyzing every piece of data, I'm inclined to think my ex was just born selfish and his mode of manifesting it as passive aggressive was molded by his strict (yet hypocritical) fundamentalist Christian upbringing. Because, in the end, he did not care enough about ANYTHING OR ANYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD to want to change even slightly. I don't think that attitude is one that develops via "wounding."

Laura, I guess these emotional manipulators would have to be fundamentally selfish people to do the things they do. Yet he loves animals, helps the elderly, would happily give his last cent to the homeless and needy-all the while neglecting his very own children, heck, downright abandoning them! The thing that makes me want to be ill, is that he sends than cards lamenting how much he misses them and how much he loves them, but will not be responsible for their upbringing in any way. How is that love? As Simon mentions in his book "Judge actions, not intentions". My ex intended to do much, but never came through on any of them.

As far as the wounding thing goes, we've all been wounded in some way, at some stage. Is it our fundamental 'orientation' (selfish vs selfless) that shapes who we are and how we are in our interpersonal relationships?

Armed with what I know now, it would still require monumental effort to deal with these types of deviants, and if I have the choice, I would rather disengage myself rather than continue to be drained.

 

[Arwenn]

My mental image of the covert aggressive is a shadow with raised knife in hand ready to bring it down violently at any opportunity (supplied by you). The armor you have is knowledge of self. But no amount of armor is going to change that shadow. Once you have taken the knife wounds, understood the source, and installed the vigilance, the lesson is over (imo) - and time to eliminate the shadow.

In the analogy I used above, the shadow is very selective about who gets the knife and who gets impression management - an attempt to constrain the movements of the "prey" (you). Based on my own experience, the CA does reveal him/herself by raising the knife on others in unique (and repeatable) circumstances involving no provocation on the part of the victim.

That's quite a chilling mental image, you got going there LQB
The vigilance is there, because I now have a name as to what he is, and how he operates, and what reactions he's expecting (perhaps even anticipating and thriving on).

It's that vigilance that I need to keep up, cuz every so often I go back to the ole ' Be nice, 'cuz everyone else is nice too ' program I got going on. I had the thought that as one builds up the inner knowledge and strength, opposing forces move to insert more Agents of the Matrix, so I guess more Mr. Smiths are to be expected.

 

[Arwenn]

Arwenn,

you might want to check the thread ´disturbing family weekend´ where I wrote about my own tendencies to be passive agressive. the thread also mentions some books on the topic that might be of interest to you.

Hi Jeremy,

I couldn't find that thread, although I did see a similar post of yours here: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,12484.msg203797.html#msg203797

Hi Arwenn, the thread Jeremy is talking about is in the section Family Life, which, like The Swamp section, is only accessible once a member has reached the number of 50 posts.

Aiming, thanks for the heads up. Just caught up on that thread, and it was not an easy read. Hope you are doing Ok Jeremy.

I've often thought it easier (in some ways) to raise kids in a single parent family. The reason for this, I feel, is that unless both people are co-linear and have the same values and rules, the kids just play one parent against the other.

Jeremy, at least you concede that you have a behavioural problem- that's half the battle won!

 

[mcb]

Hi Megan,

Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently? And the brilliant way in which these psychological deviants co-opt people and distort reality is really quite something else - so how do you cope with this in the workplace? As Simon mentions in his book, you can only really change your behaviour and control your responses, but how does one deal with the fallout from colleagues or bosses having a distorted version of you that they believe whole-heartedly?

That is a reasonable question, but I don't feel that it would be wise for me to write about it in a public forum.

 

[Arwenn]

Hi Megan,

Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently? And the brilliant way in which these psychological deviants co-opt people and distort reality is really quite something else - so how do you cope with this in the workplace? As Simon mentions in his book, you can only really change your behaviour and control your responses, but how does one deal with the fallout from colleagues or bosses having a distorted version of you that they believe whole-heartedly?

That is a reasonable question, but I don't feel that it would be wise for me to write about it in a public forum.

No problem Megan, I respect your privacy.

From my perspective, learning about it gives us the knowledge, which gives us the vigilance, which enables us to discern these psychological deviants. Having this network makes me feel as though someones got my back. We then have a choice as to how we interact with them, & whether we continue to do so, or disengage.