"Life Without Bread"

[seek10]

Duck fat can't be called organic, even if sold in organic shops, because those ducks are fed grains a lot to make them very fat, and their liver gets big, so they are not fed after their needs, even if the grains are organic.
At the beginning of the fat diet, before I could find gras fed beef fat I lived some time on fat duck but it was hard to stand, and far to feed me as much as the gras fed beef fat.
Chunks of unmelted salted butter (beurre salé) are very good to snack too : they taste like non frozen non sweet ice cream.Have you tried ?
Danse la vie

recently I got some beef tallow from USwellness meats and cooked with it. when I cooked meat with it and ate, this tasted like hard and elastic type. probably that's how beef tallow feels like I don't know. Need to try one more time.

 

[Str!ke]

Hi, I've been following the thread, and I'd like to add something regarding Live Blood Analisis:

To begin regarding LBA, I've found some information and a brief description from a doctor that practices FWIW, though its in spanish

_http://www.amm.org.mx/
_http://www.amm.org.mx/docs/darkfied_intro.pdf (a PDF with more information about it)
_http://www.amm.org.mx/docs/triptico_curso.pdf (a leaflet with a brief description about what the analisis can show)

I don't really know how realiable the analisis is, but I took it and particularly the results were:
(Just FYI I've been on a fat/protein diet mostly from beef)

1) Rouleau(which is when the blood is piled up together) Supposedly it can say whether you are not eating according to you type or having excess protein or not enough water. Well with the doctor I took the analisis, I could see my blood realtime in the microscope too, and when I saw the blood piled up he told me because I wasn't eating according to my type, and recommended D'Addamo Charts..(Being A+blood type I should be eating a lot of vegetables..supposedly) at that moment I asked about grains that ,should I eat them according to him?, and doctor said, that to be honest nobody should and told me basically to just reduce my protein and eat some vegetables.
But I don't know about vegetables, though what I've been having is a hard constipation ,hard and dry feces, regardless of taking VitC,Mg and probiotics. I'm aware that in Fiber Menace he even recommends 10grs of soluble fiber but I have a question, what type of solube fiber would you recommend? from which food or ?

2)Erythrocytes with Lemon form.(supposedly it shows if your liver is having more stress than normally or if theres something wrong in the intestinal tract)

3)Echinocytes.(It shows stress overall that says you need more antioxidants and/or ph disbalance) I do take a lot AOs so I think it maybe ph disbalance, I guess its because I still drink bottled water, as at the moment don't know if meat makes you acid only plant protein , so do you guys know of a good water purifier ionizer? or any suggestions?

4)Parasites, fungi (protoplast). I could see them in my blood moving and being like worms, even there were some candida, that kinda surprised me to see it even by having zero carbs for months.

5)Heavy Metals. Just Low to Mid, and did too the mineral hair exam and were low to mid too

And the doctor recommended to follow an alkaline and antiflamatory diet..
What I'd like to ask, do you guys think it can be recomendable to eat vegetables? of course depends on the individual,but I don't know..
Though, what I do feel when eating meat is dizzyness and kinda mental fog just after eating , is that a sign that I should eat vegetables and less meat?

Thank you for you attention and suggestions

 

[Muxel]

Hi Str!ke,
Too much meat in your diet can make your body too acidic and produce discomfort, which is probably why your doctor suggested an alkaline diet. However this does not mean eating high-pH foods directly. Have you heard of the concepts of "acid-ash" and "alkali-ash"?

For instance:
Meat is relatively "neutral" but is acid-ash forming.
Oranges and lemons may be "acidic" but are alkali-ash forming.

I would suggest you follow up your meat meals with alkali-ash fruits/vegetables (which also contain the fiber you've been missing out on).

The presence of echinocytes in your blood means your kidneys are working overtime trying to filter out excess nitrogen waste from all the protein you've been ingesting. Rather than purchase an ionizer, perhaps you could squeeze a lemon into your water?


In a nutshell,

Though, what I do feel when eating meat is dizzyness and kinda mental fog just after eating , is that a sign that I should eat vegetables and less meat?

Yes.

 

[Laura]

Hi Str!ke,
Too much meat in your diet can make your body too acidic and produce discomfort, which is probably why your doctor suggested an alkaline diet. However this does not mean eating high-pH foods directly. Have you heard of the concepts of "acid-ash" and "alkali-ash"?

Muxel, have you read this entire thread? Have you read "The Vegetarian Myth" thread?

 

[Gaby]

Hi, I've been following the thread, and I'd like to add something regarding Live Blood Analisis:

To begin regarding LBA, I've found some information and a brief description from a doctor that practices FWIW, though its in spanish

_http://www.amm.org.mx/
_http://www.amm.org.mx/docs/darkfied_intro.pdf (a PDF with more information about it)
_http://www.amm.org.mx/docs/triptico_curso.pdf (a leaflet with a brief description about what the analisis can show)

I don't really know how realiable the analisis is, but I took it and particularly the results were:
(Just FYI I've been on a fat/protein diet mostly from beef)
[...]

And the doctor recommended to follow an alkaline and antiflamatory diet..
What I'd like to ask, do you guys think it can be recomendable to eat vegetables? of course depends on the individual,but I don't know..
Though, what I do feel when eating meat is dizzyness and kinda mental fog just after eating , is that a sign that I should eat vegetables and less meat?

Thank you for you attention and suggestions

The more data I read about LBA, the more I think it is subjective, not specific nor sensible. They can be seeing something, but question is, will somebody else see the same thing and pinpoint the same specific causative factor for what they are seeing with a degree of certainty? What if they are ignoring other mechanisms. Or what if it doesn't really matter? A practitioner can see several stuff and then think that it is due to this and that and use it to justify his or her products or diet.

The alkaline concept is something that most alternative people follow. It is kind of a mainstream thing to do among them if that makes any sense. To me it doesn't make a whole of a lot sense from a scientific point of view. That is, I find the explanation simplistic, ignoring other homeostatic and processes of the body and defense mechanisms of plant food itself. The body has a strict pH control that fails only under dire circumstances. Also, if meats are so acidic, you will think that all paleo ancestors had osteoporosis bones. That is not the case. See for instance:

http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.com/2011/02/does-protein-leach-calcium-from-bones.html

The “eat-meat-lose-bone” idea has apparently become popular due to the position taken by Loren Cordain on the topic. Dr. Cordain has also made several important and invaluable contributions to our understanding of the diets of our Paleolithic ancestors. He has argued in his book, The Paleo Diet, and elsewhere (see, e.g., here) that to counter the acid load of protein one should eat fruits and vegetables. The latter are believed to have an alkaline load.

If the idea that protein leaches calcium from the bones is correct, one would expect to see a negative association between protein consumption and bone mineral density (BMD). This negative association should be particularly strong in people aged 50 and older, who are more vulnerable to BMD losses.

As it turns out, this idea appears to be correct only for plant protein. Animal protein seems to be associated with an increase in BMD, at least according to a study by Promislow et al. (2002). The study shows that there is a positive multivariate association between animal protein consumption and BMD; an association that becomes negative when plant protein consumption is considered.

The study focused on 572 women and 388 men aged 55–92 years living in Rancho Bernardo, California. Food frequency questionnaires were administered in the 1988–1992 period, and BMD was measured 4 years later. The bar chart below shows the approximate increases in BMD (in g/cm^2) for each 15 g/d increment in protein intake.

The authors reported increments in BMD for different increments of protein (15 and 5 g/d), so the results above are adjusted somewhat from the original values reported in the article. Keeping that in mind, the increment in BMD for men due to animal protein was not statistically significant (P=0.20). That is the smallest bar on the left.

Does protein leach calcium from the bones? Based on this study, the reasonable answers to this question are yes for plant protein, and no for animal protein. For animal protein, it seems to be quite the opposite.

Even more interesting, calcium intake did not seem to be much of a factor. BMD gains due to animal protein seemed to converge to similar values whether calcium intake was high, medium or low. The convergence occurred as animal protein intake increased, and the point of convergence was between 85-90 g/d of animal protein intake.

And high calcium intakes did not seem to protect those whose plant protein consumption was high.

The authors do not discuss specific foods, but one can guess the main plant protein that those folks likely consumed. It was likely gluten from wheat products.

Are the associations above due to: (a) the folks eating animal protein consuming more fruits and vegetables than the folks eating plant protein; or (b) something inherent to animal foods that stimulates an increase in the absorption of dietary calcium, even in small amounts?

This question cannot be answered based on this study; it should have controlled for fruit and vegetable consumption for that.

But if I were to bet, I would bet on (b).

The recommended books on this thread put together research that points out for option b, that is, animal foods just increase absorption and utilization of nutrients. It is the plant kingdom that is full of problems as you can see from the research we have gathered on this forum.

You can have around 12 grams of fiber from vegetables you know you tolerate but you don't need to get too focused on numbers. You can just make sure you are having servings of vegetables or salads or roots, making sure they are not the biggest part of your meal. As you make your way through the diet and heal your digestive system, you can start increasing fat intake and become more strict on the carbs. If you are starting the diet, your digestive system needs time to adjust in order to digest meat properly as it is supposed to be. We have several recommendations on this thread including HCl and digestive enzymes among other supplements.

We have discovered that we tolerate green beans rather well, also sweet potatoes (not too much, they rather high in carbs), and some of us do well with salads and beets.

 

[Gaby]

Hi Str!ke,
Too much meat in your diet can make your body too acidic and produce discomfort, which is probably why your doctor suggested an alkaline diet. However this does not mean eating high-pH foods directly. Have you heard of the concepts of "acid-ash" and "alkali-ash"?

Muxel, do read this entire thread and the Vegetarian Myth as well. We have researched these subjects for quite awhile and it is amazing to see how it is not a simple matter of alkaline Vs acidic foods.

 

[LQB]

Interesting article in the latest Weston Price Journal: http://www.westonaprice.org/cardiovascular-disease/how-does-pork-prepared-in-various-ways-affect-the-blood. I'll just post the Intro an conclusions here, but the article link shows pretty dramatic pics of blood cell clumping. Apparently the effect is pork-specific

Later in the Journal, Sally Fallon follows up with a reference to Rubik's article: http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/pork

Pork

Written by Sally Fallon Morell
October 10 2011

"Dear WAPF," began the hand-written note, "We are cancelling our membership because of the Foundation's stand against eating pork. Your prejudice against pork hurts hard-working farmers."

This letter has languished in my files for several years as I considered how to answer what I call the "pork dilemma." On the one hand, several practitioners of live blood cell analysis have told me that eating pork causes undesirable changes in the blood; on the other hand, pork was consumed by healthy Polynesian and Melanesian groups which Dr. Price visited and described; and pork is a major food in the diets of long-lived peoples such as the Okinawans and Caucasian Georgians. Equally important is the fact that raising pork fits so well into the model of an integrated farm. If the farmer is making cheese (from grass-fed cows, of course), he can give the whey, considered a waste product, to the pigs and chickens. Many farmers have told me that it is the pigs, more than any other product, that brings prosperity to the farm, even if they are raised on purchased grain.

A clue to the dilemma came from a Chinese member of WAPF. "In China," he told me, "we prepare pork in a special way, otherwise we think it is unhealthy." The preparation technique involves cutting pork into small pieces and marinating it in vinegar before cooking it in pork fat. "When we prepare pork this way," he said, "we know that it is good for us." Pork and pork fat together form the number one source of calories in the traditional Chinese diet.

Pork is traditionally marinated in vinegar in the Philippines and in Argentina; in Europe it is fermented or cured; even America has her tradition of pickled pigs' feet and vinegar-marinated barbecue.

At last we have been able to bring some finality to the question with the live blood analyses of Beverly Rubik (see article page 24). Her study indicates that plain pork meat indeed causes undesirable changes in the blood, accompanied by fatigue, but pork that has been marinated, fermented or cured does not. This is indeed good news for farmers and bacon lovers!

......

 

[Gwenllian]

So I do not know whether I should change their diets, I would like to, because I do not want them to develop all kinds of diseases in (later) life. But do I have that right?

Poor nutrition leads to poor ability to think, use emotion, and function physically, which does not support free will. Children at different stages of development will need different amounts and kinds of guidance, and when you learn something new you may need to try to pass it along to them even if they are past the ideal stage for learning it.

My "solution:" Decide on a course of action, do it, observe what happens, and revise as necessary.

Thank you all so much for your input. It will make it easier for me to "decide on a course of action". I have little time to write ATM. EE and a slow change of diet have already given me more energy. I am cleaning and reorganising my home and my paperwork and studying at the same time. It also gives me the opportunity to ponder how to go about these changes I would also like for my kids. Your posts are much appreciated. Will write more later.

This is key, I think, Megan, what you wrote about poor nutrition and that it does not support free will. That is not what I want for them.

I think the first step will be to ditch the fruit drinks, although they do not contain table sugar and are organic it is still a lot of carbs.
(After PBPM I will start reading Lights Out. My kids go to bed fairly late and I have already announced that as from tomorrow the lights will go out at ten.)

 

[Gwenllian]

For the Dutch people on this forum I have found a website where we can buy grass-fed meat (only beef unfortunately). It looks really good.

http://www.puregrazefoods.nl/welkom.html

The price is well, pricey, but the quality is according to the people of puregrazefoods excellent. I will contact them and ask for more details.
And suggest pork?

Edit:
I was told that they will start selling pork fairly soon. They could not tell me if it becomes cheaper when people buy in larger quantities.

 

[mcb]

...I think the first step will be to ditch the fruit drinks, although they do not contain table sugar and are organic it is still a lot of carbs...

Fructose -- fruit sugar -- is a big problem and numerous sources suggest that fruit drinks contribute directly to the obesity epidemic. Fructose does not directly stimulate insulin production or convert to glucose, but rather is converted to fat in the liver. It may contribute to "fatty liver disease." Fructose usually is present in foods in combination with sucrose and the latter does stimulate insulin, and the fat made from fructose is then more likely to be stored in the fat cells. (I am using Why We Get Fat as my primary reference, but the information is repeated in other books.)

Increased fructose consumption is also associated with development of metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes) and with elevated LDL-C levels. Primal Body, Primal Mind states that it is extremely glycating and damaging.

I became suspicious years ago when I started reading the labels on fruit juice bottles. I had been taught that fruit juice was "good for you" by well-meaning vegetarians but I started to notice the lack of vitamins and other nutrients in the bottled juices. The juices (let alone the more processed "fruit drinks") are basically bottled sugar, though a particular form of sugar that may increase the risk of obesity and diabetes.

So yes, you might want to "ditch the fruit drinks."

When I was growing up I learned around age 12 that a lot of things people eat and take for granted are not healthy, not just obvious sugary things. While the specifics of what I was taught had a lot of issues, it still changed the course of my life because it changed the way I saw the world. You don't have to get it exactly right in order to make good choices. You just need to be flexible, keep checking your information as best you can, and adjust things as you find better information.

One great thing about this Forum group is that while we don't get everything right, there are a lot of people looking at what is said and the chances of someone spotting an error are greater than what they would be working alone. In the end, though, we each have to make our own decisions based upon our personal circumstances. To do that, I find that I need to constantly be reading and studying using a variety of sources, including those named in the Forum and others as well.

 

[Gwenllian]

Fructose -- fruit sugar -- is a big problem and numerous sources suggest that fruit drinks contribute directly to the obesity epidemic. Fructose does not directly stimulate insulin production or convert to glucose, but rather is converted to fat in the liver. It may contribute to "fatty liver disease." Fructose usually is present in foods in combination with sucrose and the latter does stimulate insulin, and the fat made from fructose is then more likely to be stored in the fat cells. (I am using Why We Get Fat as my primary reference, but the information is repeated in other books.)

Increased fructose consumption is also associated with development of metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes) and with elevated LDL-C levels. Primal Body, Primal Mind states that it is extremely glycating and damaging.

I became suspicious years ago when I started reading the labels on fruit juice bottles. I had been taught that fruit juice was "good for you" by well-meaning vegetarians but I started to notice the lack of vitamins and other nutrients in the bottled juices. The juices (let alone the more processed "fruit drinks") are basically bottled sugar, though a particular form of sugar that may increase the risk of obesity and diabetes.

So yes, you might want to "ditch the fruit drinks."

This information is highly worrying.
One of my children has gained weight this past year, although he does not eat a lot of sugar. He doesn't like it much. It probably has to do with these drinks and the fact that we have started eating more and more potatoes.
It is good to know about the role of fructose. Thank you for this.

When I was growing up I learned around age 12 that a lot of things people eat and take for granted are not healthy, not just obvious sugary things. While the specifics of what I was taught had a lot of issues, it still changed the course of my life because it changed the way I saw the world. You don't have to get it exactly right in order to make good choices. You just need to be flexible, keep checking your information as best you can, and adjust things as you find better information.

One great thing about this Forum group is that while we don't get everything right, there are a lot of people looking at what is said and the chances of someone spotting an error are greater than what they would be working alone. In the end, though, we each have to make our own decisions based upon our personal circumstances. To do that, I find that I need to constantly be reading and studying using a variety of sources, including those named in the Forum and others as well.

I have found that there is a lot of information that I have forgotten already while reading PBPM and LWB. So it is good to read this thread and to be reminded of that knowledge and new information coming from other sources. This forum is truly a gift, I agree. It is also inspiring to share information, our errors and the things that work for people.

 

[Harold]

Fructose -- fruit sugar -- is a big problem and numerous sources suggest that fruit drinks contribute directly to the obesity epidemic. Fructose does not directly stimulate insulin production or convert to glucose, but rather is converted to fat in the liver. It may contribute to "fatty liver disease." Fructose usually is present in foods in combination with sucrose and the latter does stimulate insulin, and the fat made from fructose is then more likely to be stored in the fat cells. (I am using Why We Get Fat as my primary reference, but the information is repeated in other books.)

Increased fructose consumption is also associated with development of metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes) and with elevated LDL-C levels. Primal Body, Primal Mind states that it is extremely glycating and damaging.

I became suspicious years ago when I started reading the labels on fruit juice bottles. I had been taught that fruit juice was "good for you" by well-meaning vegetarians but I started to notice the lack of vitamins and other nutrients in the bottled juices. The juices (let alone the more processed "fruit drinks") are basically bottled sugar, though a particular form of sugar that may increase the risk of obesity and diabetes.

So yes, you might want to "ditch the fruit drinks."

This information is highly worrying.
One of my children has gained weight this past year, although he does not eat a lot of sugar. He doesn't like it much. It probably has to do with these drinks and the fact that we have started eating more and more potatoes.
It is good to know about the role of fructose. Thank you for this.

When I was growing up I learned around age 12 that a lot of things people eat and take for granted are not healthy, not just obvious sugary things. While the specifics of what I was taught had a lot of issues, it still changed the course of my life because it changed the way I saw the world. You don't have to get it exactly right in order to make good choices. You just need to be flexible, keep checking your information as best you can, and adjust things as you find better information.

One great thing about this Forum group is that while we don't get everything right, there are a lot of people looking at what is said and the chances of someone spotting an error are greater than what they would be working alone. In the end, though, we each have to make our own decisions based upon our personal circumstances. To do that, I find that I need to constantly be reading and studying using a variety of sources, including those named in the Forum and others as well.

I have found that there is a lot of information that I have forgotten already while reading PBPM and LWB. So it is good to read this thread and to be reminded of that knowledge and new information coming from other sources. This forum is truly a gift, I agree. It is also inspiring to share information, our errors and the things that work for people.

A little anecdotal story on juice.... I was renovating a juice marketing companies office, I stopped to read a presentation in one of the board rooms. The thrust of the message they were selling was how adding juice to your menu ie. a breatfast combo etc. increases the sellers profit margin, makes you money etc. nothing about the virtue of selling juice (as there is none).

For a decade or so I have thought of juice as a gateway drug to sugar addiction and other addictions. Over the years I have eliminated acid indigestion.... how?.... I dont know exactly but it does coincide with the removal of juice from my diet.

Also too, a couple of decades ago there was the juice lady of Florida.... does anyone remember her name? This woman was very anti homosexual.... Anita Bryant I think her name was.

Anyways the juice industry is a profit driven industry, with little profit going to the growers and most of the profit going to the corporate conglomerate's who manufacture and market the nasty stuff.

That said, I do like to make my own juice from time to time, with left over carrots or apples etc. as a treat. But this has not happened for quite some time, a half a year at least.

Recently a friend of mine has stopped drinking juice (and pop)and having it in her house, she has lost weight, her acid indigestion has disappeared and she has very little body pain (which has troubled her for many years) and her children are loosing weight too!

 

[Gertrudes]

Fructose -- fruit sugar -- is a big problem and numerous sources suggest that fruit drinks contribute directly to the obesity epidemic. Fructose does not directly stimulate insulin production or convert to glucose, but rather is converted to fat in the liver. It may contribute to "fatty liver disease." Fructose usually is present in foods in combination with sucrose and the latter does stimulate insulin, and the fat made from fructose is then more likely to be stored in the fat cells. (I am using Why We Get Fat as my primary reference, but the information is repeated in other books.)

Increased fructose consumption is also associated with development of metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes) and with elevated LDL-C levels. Primal Body, Primal Mind states that it is extremely glycating and damaging.

I became suspicious years ago when I started reading the labels on fruit juice bottles. I had been taught that fruit juice was "good for you" by well-meaning vegetarians but I started to notice the lack of vitamins and other nutrients in the bottled juices. The juices (let alone the more processed "fruit drinks") are basically bottled sugar, though a particular form of sugar that may increase the risk of obesity and diabetes.

So yes, you might want to "ditch the fruit drinks."

This information is highly worrying.
One of my children has gained weight this past year, although he does not eat a lot of sugar. He doesn't like it much. It probably has to do with these drinks and the fact that we have started eating more and more potatoes.
It is good to know about the role of fructose. Thank you for this.

Fruit juices are an extremely popular drink being sold as your healthy guaranteed daily vitamin intake, when in reality they seem to be little more then pure sugar creating all sorts of havoc. I tend to think that they are mostly a huge money maker.

My 7 and 9 year old nieces, when staying at my parents', drink a ton of daily fruit juice, there's no way I can convey to my parents that that is not healthy, if the package says it has vitamins, then it surely must be right, right?
What I particularly notice is how their behavior becomes erratic, and they start showing clear signs of hyperactivity combined with very short attention span.

 

[liffy]

I'm living with my 2 year old cousin, and if there are any juice boxes in the fridge, we'll have to hide them behind something else, because if she sees them, she'll go nuts, and start crying if she doesn't get one.

Kind of worrying, to say the least, but yesterday she tasted some vegetable juice, which at first she didn't like (made of celery, carrots and tomatoes), but then my uncle managed to make her believe that the tomato on the bottle was an apple, and then it suddenly wasn't bad at all. Funny how the mind works.

PS. I know that these juices aren't all that great for her either, but it certainly is a lot better than apple juice (from concentrate, even).

 

[Gaby]

I've been having some skin rashes flare ups, which I find peculiar. When I did the Candida protocol months ago I got these skin rashes as a die off reaction. They no never really disappeared, although it did get much better with the help of coconut oil. Over the past few days it has been getting worse though. I'm still at 5g of carbs a day (no particular reason for that, I'm just really enjoying the meat diet), nothing has changed, and I've not had anything sweet since the end of February. I'm not sure whether this could this be another die-off reaction, but if anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

There are two things that seems to increase problems with rashes when doing this diet. First, those who are histamine sensitive and who tend to have more rashes (they are allergic) because one tends to have all kinds of fatty meats with spices. I got a rash and it typically itches when I have a meat with spices or if it was cooked in spicy fat. I thought that was actually progress, before I will have "hay fever":

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-eating-meat/

I thought of something else today regarding histamine sensitivity and skin rashes on a low carb diet. It seems to me that it can be a physiological adaptation.

Histamine is produced in certain cells (mast cells in tissues) but also in certain glands of the stomach (oxyntic glands) which happens to be the same place where gastric acid is produced and secreted in response to the right stimulation (i.e. high protein diet).

In addition to that, histamine can increase the secretion of pepsin, which is crucial for protein digestion.

Then we have gastrin, which is a hormone that stimulates secretion of gastric acid (HCl) in the stomach. It also increases the release of histamine.

So more meat on the diet means more secretion of stomach acids and histamine in order to digest it.

A low carb diet tends to deal with food allergies quite effectively since most of them come from the plant kingdom. But if a person is histamine sensitive and doesn't remove potential triggers like spices in meats, there could be allergies. Or if the diet is a zero carb or close to it, there can be rashes as well in certain people, especially at the beginning when the digestive system is adapting to digest meat better.

Just some thoughts.