"Life Without Bread"

[Gertrudes]

"Researchers have observed that the average size of a dinner plate in the 1950s was 9 inches across. By the 80’s it had grown to 11 inches and today the average dinner plate is a whopping 13 inches."

Oh wow, that's very interesting Oxajil.

What's happening is that the amount of protein that I can have per meal has decreased even more, just a few bites seems to be enough and can keep me going for a couple of hours.

Same here. I fact, it is amazing how little I can eat and keep going for so many hours. I do eat a LOT of fat though, and that is, I think, what makes me feel so well fed.
Similarly to you, I was getting all bloated with a lot of protein, and pretty much feeling miserable when that happened, my energy would go down and it felt like a rock was seating on my stomach. Small meals are also the way to go for me, I feel incomparably better since having diminished my portions of food. However, I am also skinny and have gotten even skinnier which is sort of worrisome, so I'm testing with food quantities again to find a way to gain some weight.

From what I read from you at another thread you have actually gained weight, and that seems to be, I think, a very positive sign. Despite how much food you have in your plate, if your energy lasts, and you have even began to normalize your weight, something is working well. This isn't to say that there aren't underlying issues to be taken care of, though. Digestibility and a possible leaky gut seem to be on the foreground for many of us.

I think that once we enter ketosis it does take a while not only for our bodies to adapt, but also for ourselves to adapt in terms of exactly what food to eat, and how much.

Some books mention an adaptation of weeks. Maybe for some, personally it has taken me quite a few months, and that was AFTER I entered ketosis. It seemed that my body just kept going through different types of changes.

About the bloating, I was getting very bloated, as in 6 months pregnant looking bloated. Besides diminishing the protein, what also helped me was to take L-glutamine every day twice a day (which I'm still doing), I took lactoferrin, peppermint capsules (still taking), and aloe vera. These are all very healing for the intestinal walls, and after about one to two weeks of this my abdomen was almost back to normal. I haven't bloated now in months.

Well, what I mean to convey with all of this is that with time, careful testing, and after addressing any underlying health issues I trust that you will end up feeling fully adapted Oxajil. Fingers crossed!

 

[Laura]

I'd like to give an update on how I'm doing so far. So I'm following this diet for 5 months now. And I seem to have gone through several stages of adaptment to the diet, being: pain in legs/arms > stomach pain > pain in the head, temples area. Now all those pains went away after some time, and I can sense my body has become stronger, especially my head. Usually I would easily get a headache just from low temperatures outside, but I don't seem to have that anymore.

Yeah, most of us went through all kinds of changes too. I suspect that a lot of that is right down to the DNA.

Now, I'm experiencing another symptom... it started just as the weather outside got colder, so it could be related to that, or it is yet another stage of adaptment I'm going to have to go through. What's happening is that the amount of protein that I can have per meal has decreased even more, just a few bites seems to be enough and can keep me going for a couple of hours.

I'm experiencing the same thing... serious reduction in appetite. As I wrote some posts back, I wonder if that is related in any way to that passage about squirrels in one of the books I cited earlier. That so much of what goes on with our body is seasonal. It may be responding to light duration and temperature. And it may be better able to do this when it has the correct diet. After all, bears hibernate all winter and eat nothing at all for several months - just sleep. Well, we aren't bears, but there could be something related to that. ?

 

[RedFox]

Same here. I fact, it is amazing how little I can eat and keep going for so many hours. I do eat a LOT of fat though, and that is, I think, what makes me feel so well fed.
Similarly to you, I was getting all bloated with a lot of protein, and pretty much feeling miserable when that happened, my energy would go down and it felt like a rock was seating on my stomach. Small meals are also the way to go for me, I feel incomparably better since having diminished my portions of food. However, I am also skinny and have gotten even skinnier which is sort of worrisome, so I'm testing with food quantities again to find a way to gain some weight.

Intersting because the same thing seemed to be happening to me, it got to the point where I couldn't eat more than (the equivalent of) two slices of bacon for breakfast/lunch/evening meal. So I started loosing weight again (being skinny this isn't good). Small buckwheat pancakes helped a little.
Eating too much would lead to bloating, gas, abdominal pain, folowed by diarrhea. If I got to the point of gas etc it seemed that my guts had decided to stop absorbing food....and by the end of the day (diarrhea or not) I'd be starving....but couldn't eat much or I'd compound the problem.
The difference for me though was I wasn't getting more energy, and was loosing weight.

The chapter in Primal Body, Primal Mind on digestive support helped me work it out. I'm taking up to a gram of HCL and quite a lot of ox bile too per meal and things are much better. I have energy again, have put on weight almost instantly and no more bloating/pain!
So I don't know if that's something to consider or not.

I had been off the digestive aids for some months as my body seemed quite happy without them. The last month or saw an increase in bloating/pain etc with fatty meats and/or too much protein...but with weight loss if I ate within my tolerance (which kept dropping).
On a side note, my bowel tolerance for vitamin C seems to be virtually zero....not tried it with digestive aids though, so perhaps its related.

 

[Gertrudes]

The chapter in Primal Body, Primal Mind on digestive support helped me work it out. I'm taking up to a gram of HCL and quite a lot of ox bile too per meal and things are much better. I have energy again, have put on weight almost instantly and no more bloating/pain!
So I don't know if that's something to consider or not.

Mmmm....interesting. I was taking HCL and digestive enzymes (which included ox bile) but that didn't seem to make any difference, so I stopped.
After reading your post I checked exactly how much I was taking, and my bottle of digestive enzymes only has 100mg of ox bile per pill. I usually took one pill per meal, very occasionally two.
My HCL bottle contains 648mg of HCL and 150mg of pepsin. I took one capsule once only, and because I didn't feel well I blamed the HCL thinking that it was too strong for me. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Reading how much you are taking makes me wonder whether I shouldn't try it again.

Mind you, I am feeling pretty good overall, my energy levels are very high and I can concentrate better then ever, but I could do with a bit of extra weight and not having to worry with whether I'll digest things well when I eat slightly bigger portions.

 

[Oxajil]

Besides diminishing the protein, what also helped me was to take L-glutamine every day twice a day (which I'm still doing), I took lactoferrin, peppermint capsules (still taking), and aloe vera. These are all very healing for the intestinal walls, and after about one to two weeks of this my abdomen was almost back to normal. I haven't bloated now in months.

Thanks a lot Gertrudes. Good to hear you have overcome the bloating! And I'll be looking into those supplements you mentioned.

I'm experiencing the same thing... serious reduction in appetite. As I wrote some posts back, I wonder if that is related in any way to that passage about squirrels in one of the books I cited earlier. That so much of what goes on with our body is seasonal. It may be responding to light duration and temperature. And it may be better able to do this when it has the correct diet. After all, bears hibernate all winter and eat nothing at all for several months - just sleep. Well, we aren't bears, but there could be something related to that. ?

I think that could be possible. I did some searching around and found some interesting info.
The following excerpts are taken from a journal entitled as ''Appetite regulation and seasonality: implications for obesity'':

SD = Short Days (autumn-winter)
LD = Long Days (spring-summer)

High circulating concentrations of leptin in obesity are associated with an apparent loss of its
characteristic anorexic action within the hypothalamic region of the brain. Central insensitivity
to leptin may therefore contribute to the aetiology of this disease, and an increased understanding
of the underlying mechanisms will identify potential means of prevention and/or
therapeutic targets. Seasonal animals such as sheep and Siberian hamsters (Phodopus sungorus)
exhibit annual photoperiod-driven cycles of appetite and body weight. Increased food intake and
weight gain in long days (summer) are associated with high circulating leptin, and decreased
intake and weight loss in short days (winter) with low leptin. Critically, these cycles are
associated with reversible changes in sensitivity to leptin. High sensitivity is seen in short days
and relative insensitivity in long days

suggests that hamsters remain in energy balance
despite appetite reduction and weight loss when these are
induced by SD rather than by imposed food restriction.

It could be argued that the hypothalamus of seasonal species is
programmed biannually to become leptin resistant in LD
and leptin sensitive in SD.

So, pretty interesting that during shorther days there is a decrease in weight and during longer days there is an increase in weight. Perhaps, eventually, the same applies to us, maybe there is no solid ideal weight and our weight fluctuates in accordance with the season (within limits of course)? Also note that there was no loss of energy during the shorter days when little food was consumed and weight was lost.

And here is one article on ''Circadian rhythms and appetite'':

The control of food intake is a flexible system whereby internal and external environmental cues influence the timing of feeding and appetite. The suprachiasmatic nucleus in the hypothalamus is the vital coordinator of these stimuli that ultimately generates fluctuations in neuronal and hormonal activities that are known as circadian rhythms. Circadian rhythms are driven by the daily variations in ambient light, which, by alterating gene expression, elicit a host of physiological responses including fluctuations in the hormones involved in appetite. Various factors such as temperature and social cues influence circadian rhythms; indeed, food intake itself can regulate these rhythms, but the neural mechanisms by which this occurs remains elusive. It has recently been proposed that there is a ‘food entrainable oscillator’ that exists independently of the SCN, and which controls food anticipation activity.

And as you said, following this diet could enable us to respond more natural to our environment, because, as we can see, leptin (among other factors) could play an important role in this response, and this diet possibly restores healthy leptin functioning as Gedgaudas explained.

Altogether, there is limited research done in this area, and as you said in one of the Q&A videos; time is running out for true objective research to be done. So I guess it comes down to us in a way, as long as we stay consistent and share our experiences with the diet, we might get some more understanding. Fwiw.

 

[Ollie]

I've noticed too, that the amount of food I was eating previously is now, by the end of the day (before tea-time), accompanied by a feeling of fulness. Also, my sleep pattern - duration - has changed, I'm now sleeping for a couple of hours less than before (6hrs as opposed to 8hrs).

Mind you, I am feeling pretty good overall, my energy levels are very high and I can concentrate better then ever, ... it is amazing how little I can eat and keep going for so many hours. I do eat a LOT of fat though, and that is, I think, what makes me feel so well fed.

Make that another, especially the fat enabling me to keep my energy levels high and concentrating better, although by late evening I'm ready to crash out. Weight-wise, I've stayed pretty much constant since adapting to this diet.

 

[stellar]

I've noticed too, that the amount of food I was eating previously is now, by the end of the day (before tea-time), accompanied by a feeling of fulness. Also, my sleep pattern - duration - has changed, I'm now sleeping for a couple of hours less than before (6hrs as opposed to 8hrs).

Mind you, I am feeling pretty good overall, my energy levels are very high and I can concentrate better then ever, ... it is amazing how little I can eat and keep going for so many hours. I do eat a LOT of fat though, and that is, I think, what makes me feel so well fed.

Make that another, especially the fat enabling me to keep my energy levels high and concentrating better, although by late evening I'm ready to crash out. Weight-wise, I've stayed pretty much constant since adapting to this diet.

I'm finding similar happenings. Less sleep, lower appetite, plenty of fat and good energy levels overall.

 

[ginebra]

I also have to say that my energy levels have increased significantly and conversely my appetite has decreased, which is a great thing for me. All my
life I have been strugling to control my hunguer. Also meaninful the fact that I cope better with the cold.

 

[mada85]

I read the first third of this thread, and Life Without Bread and The Art and Science of Low-Carbohydrate Living. Primal Body, Primal Mind is on order for delivery this week. I came to the conclusion that as I was already eating meat at every meal, and plenty of fat, that it would be OK for me to lower my intake of carbs significantly. So, I cut out raisins and buckwheat completely and lowered my carb intake to 60g daily to begin with, and then reduced it over a period of some days and now I've been limiting my carbs to about 20g daily for the past ten days or so. Soon after starting this I noticed symptoms like fusty breath in the mornings, dark smelly urine (also in the morning) and waking at night with a very dry mouth, in spite of drinking plenty of water. Over the past week or so these symptoms have passed and now it seems that my body's water balance has stabilised and I don't have the fusty breath etc in the mornings.

I mentioned in another post that I was suffering from post-viral fatigue since mid-June this year. Well, I think that the PVF has ended but there is something else going on which I strongly suspect is an iron deficiency. I'm still experiencing very low energy levels, in spite of eating plenty of fats. I will soon be having some blood tests done to try and get to the bottom of this problem. An iron deficiency would explain why I was eating so many raisins, as they are a good source of iron. But sugar addiction would also explain it! I've noticed that I have better mental clarity since lowering my carb intake, but I haven't experienced anything like the 'rocket fuel' boost others have mentioned. I don't want to start messing with my iron levels until I have some test results.

As for supplements, I plan to continue taking my current list of them until I start to feel that they can be reduced, and then do that slowly. My tolerance for vit C has dropped recently, and definitely so since I lowered my carb intake. My bowel tolerance is reached if I take 1.5g, then another 1.0g an hour later. 9 months ago I could take 10 – 15 grams a day and not reach my limit.

I'm eating a good amount of salt every day, and start the day with 1.25g vit C and a half teaspoon of Himalayan salt in warm water. I add about a half teaspoon of salt to each meal and try to have at least one salt-water drink during the day.

Generally I have two meals a day, and my body is really satisfied with that. Occasionally I'll have a little ham and some butter for lunch. I haven't lost any weight, but then I can't afford to lose any being quite slim to begin with. Neither have I gained any. I occasionally have a craving for something like raisins but I put that down to old habits and just ignore it. All in all, I feel good on this diet, except for the problem of low energy and possible iron deficiency, but once I get that sorted out things should be really good. Low-carb seems to be the way my body wants to eat. Sometimes I'm falling asleep at night really looking forward to starting the following day with my pork chop and eggs!

Breakfast is an onion, a pork loin steak and two fried eggs. I cook them with a lot of lard and ghee, and the onion helps to make a kind of sauce with the fats. I was eating only one egg and found the fat to be a bit of a challenge to eat, but I was surprised to find that having another egg makes it easier to eat the fats. Possibly the old hearty breakfast recipe of bacon and eggs – not forgetting the bacon grease – was arrived at for this reason.

I've been quite lucky in that I've not had any loose bowels, only a little constipation early on, but some extra vit C and magnesium sorted that out quite quickly. Things now seem to have settled down into a decent routine. Somewhere I read that on this diet food passes more slowly through the digestive system, and that does seem to be the case.

 

[Ollie]

Further results from experiments on pork sensitivity, this time with pork chops. From previous tests these were definitely a no-go food.

Pork chop, as bought from butcher, grilled is now OK, just on the line before going over to being too sensitive for me to eat ; next, marinating overnight in a ‘pickling brine’ (Manual of a Traditional Bacon Curer, Maynard Davies) - 10 parts water and 1 part salt by weight – passed with flying colours ; next, using Laura’s marinade of equal parts of vinegar, oil and water – gave a similar result to non-marinating ; and finally a combination of the two (modified Philip’s Wet Cure in Forgotten Skills of Cooking by Darina Allen) – used ‘pickling brine’ plus 1/3C salt in approx 1 litre of fluid – passed with flying colours again . All marinated overnight.

So it would appear that adding the salt is the crucial element – for me - in that ‘brined meat’ has been shown to harbour fewer populations of harmful bacteria than ‘unbrined meat’. It dehydrates those living things, either killing them or preventing them from multiplying (using salt, and killing them with vinegar (too strong of the latter will toughen up the meat)). Possibly, it’s these ‘harmful bacteria’ that my body objects to.

Onwards and upward, next liver, to see what processes, cutting and methods of cooking are likely to make it acceptable for my body to process (on the basis that it has yet to adapt to digesting liver without any adverse effects).

 

[SeekinTruth]

Great news, Prodigal Son! :) Keep us updated with the rest of the experiments.

 

[Gawan]

I did an experiments with the Chocolate mousse and just added it to normal meat and well, it tastes delicious. :)

 

[Ðekel]

Gawan,

I did an experiments with the Chocolate mousse and just added it to normal meat and well, it tastes delicious.

wait a minute... WHAT ?
:)

how do you add chocolate mousse to meat ?
this sounds like something i would like to try.

 

[Cosmos]

I did an experiments with the Chocolate mousse and just added it to normal meat and well, it tastes delicious. :)

adding the chocolate to meat ?
well I couldn't do this ! :P that would stretch my gustatory nerves way to much

I made the choclate mousse now the second time. and yes it is very delicious but somehow I can't tolerate it.
maybe it is the cocoa or the regular butter ?
I noticed when I'm melting the cocoa butter together with regular butter that some sort of white substance is left wich is not melting.
from what I saw I think it comes from the regular butter. what is it ?
maybe something with lactose in it ?

 

[RedFox]

I did an experiments with the Chocolate mousse and just added it to normal meat and well, it tastes delicious. :)

adding the chocolate to meat ?
well I couldn't do this ! :P that would stretch my gustatory nerves way to much

I made the choclate mousse now the second time. and yes it is very delicious but somehow I can't tolerate it.
maybe it is the cocoa or the regular butter ?
I noticed when I'm melting the cocoa butter together with regular butter that some sort of white substance is left wich is not melting.
from what I saw I think it comes from the regular butter. what is it ?
maybe something with lactose in it ?

Sounds like it could be the milk solids. If you make ghee/clarified butter, you will get the milk solids (milk protein) separating out from the butter.
I've been using ghee/clarified butter for cooking/putting on food, as I seem to react to butter.