"Life Without Bread"

[Gertrudes]

Yeah, organ meats are the best nutrition at the best price. Even pastured / grass/natural fed animal organs are affordable when in ketosis and not eating and snacking so much. Plus, as RedFox also mentioned fat is very cheap -- especially lard. Render it and you also get cracklings to eat as a side dish.

Unexpectedly I have been finding fat incredibly expensive here in UK. We render our own lard and have been trying to find free range pork fat. Initially we got it from our local butcher and that was, indeed, cheap. Then we got some free range one for £5.99 a kg (!). But when we were rendering it the smell and taste were so different from the previous one that we decided that despite the price, it was worth it. Since then I have been trying to find free range pork fat for cheaper, getting quotes of up to £8.00 a kg! I was not expecting that all. Recently we bought 15kg for £2.00 per kg, which isn't bad.

I also fully agree with what has been said in that eating a paleo diet ends up being cheaper. You eat a lot less, and feel more satisfied. And with organ meats that is even more pronounced. Liver in the morning can literally keep me fed for the entire day until dinner time.

Paleo gets actually very costly, i think, because in addition to the relatively cheap paleo-foods (non-organic!! in my country) it requires added special nutrition in form of expensive supplements (mostly possible as order only from abroad) to balance the nowadays accessible inadequate food and our carb-rich bringing up.

I have greatly reduced the quantity of supplements since having gone paleo because I no longer need them. True, you may need to supplement during the transition. But saying that you need to supplement more isn't, I think, true. Why would you have to supplement more then on a carb diet? As I mentioned, I personally have experienced the opposite, and throughout the thread you'll find that many members have reported the same.

Organic food must contain the exact amount of added nutrients that i'm lacking now, all that must be missing from non-organic food precisely. So i want to place myself in the financial position of being able to procure organic food. Will be pricey, because of shipping costs and search, travel, making personal agreements with farmers. Eat it for weeks, observe the effects then hopefully i will feel as good as you and Phinney, Volek and the others describe.

What exactly is going on with you then? What are the symptoms you are experiencing at the moment that make you feel less good? Maybe if you tell us how you feel and exactly what you have been eating we'll be able to help.

 

[mcb]

...I've been meaning to post the following for a while but never got round to do it. Below is an excerpt of an interview with Mat Lalonde entitled "Invalid Inferences". It was part of the Paleo Summit mentioned earlier in this thread, and although Mat doesn't seem to have a good grasp on the effects of ketosis and the real reasons for a low carb diet (but that isn't the point of his interview either) he gives a couple of pointers as to what appear to be some common misconceptions. What I'm posting below refers to lectins, versus proteins in legumes and grains. Sorry that it's a bit long, but if I try to cut out more portions I'm afraid we'll probably lose the full context.

I will repost my comment here too (from the "Lectins" topic):
I was thinking about the "Invalid Inferences" talk in relation to Sayer Ji's lectin articles. We do need more verifiable information, and we need to verify it. My impression is that some of the articles posted on GreenMedInfo and written by other authors are questionable. All can say at this point is be careful, and question everything you read, especially when it comes from a single source.

 

[Gaby]

Mat: When I have looked at the totality of the evidence, and when it comes to grains
and legumes, I am pretty sure that it is the proteins that are problematic.

Well, lectin is a protein (_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectin). Some are considered to be resistant to proteolytic digestion in the stomach and to be heat stable as well.

Cordain does consider the role of lectins in food even after processing and heating. Biologists themselves might not be well acquainted with studies done in terms of the role of lectins in human disease. The argument is that dry heat might not be enough to neutralize lectins.

For instance:

http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

There has been some information that lectins may be inactivated by soaking, sprouting, cooking or fermenting. Soaking legumes over night, draining the water, rinsing and draining again does seem to remove or inactivate many of the lectins. Heating seems to remove others in some foods but not all. There is little data to prove that any of these methods remove lectins completely as few foods have been tested and of those that have lectins many seem to remain after processing.

Excerpt from Plant Lectins , Pusztai A, Cambridge University Press 1991 pg.108

Nachbar and Oppenheim (1980) found 30% of fresh and PROCESSED foods contained active lectins. Lectins from green salads, fruits, spices, seeds, dry cereals and nuts (even after roasting) showed activity of potentially toxic lectins. Some of these lectins interact with serum or salivary components and bacteria from the oral cavity (Gibbons & Dankers, 1981).

Another example of the hardiness of lectins is the study by Klurfeld DM and Kritchevsky D Lipids 1987 Sep:22(9):667-8,

Isolation and quantitation of lectins from vegetable oils.

Results-Unrefined soy oils contained 858-2983 mcg/kg. After refining oils contained 24-55 mcg/kg. Both refined and unrefined soy oil contained soy lectins.

From Plant Lectins A Pusztai 1991 Table 6.9 page 179

Common features of toxic (non-nutritive) effects in lectin-gut interactions.
High degree of resistance to gut proteolysis.Binding to brush border cells; damage to microvillus membrane; shedding of cells; reduction in the absorptive capacity of the small intestine.Increased endocytosis; induction of hyperplastic growth of the small intestine; increased turnover of epithelial cells.Interference with the immune system; hypersensitivity reactions. Interference with the microbial ecology of the gut; selective overgrowth.Direct and indirect effects (hormones, etc.) on systemic metabolism.

Especially note #5. The popular Candida Diet is essentially a high protein, low carbohydrate diet which limits starches and sugars and thereby limits lectins. If lectins are a problem for this person (the so-called 'candida' patient) lectin ingestion may be associated with overgrowth of various gut pathogens that may include yeasts and removal of lectins would restore the gut ecology and the gut immune system. If this is true, the diet does not get rid of yeast but relieves the person from symptoms and pathogenic consequences caused by ingestion of lectins to which he or she is intolerant..

Lectins are hardy proteins that do not break down easily. They are resistant to stomach acid and digestive enzymes.

Other examples:

Modulation of immune function by dietary lectins in rheumatoid arthritis
http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/MolecularMimicryOther/Arthritis.pdf

Agrarian diet and diseases of affluence – Do evolutionary novel dietary lectins cause leptin resistance?
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6823/5/10

Dietary Lectins as Disease Causing Toxicants
http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin1120.pdf

Immunoblotting detection of lectins in gluten and white rice flour
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/3827897?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

I was thinking about the "Invalid Inferences" talk in relation to Sayer Ji's lectin articles. We do need more verifiable information, and we need to verify it. My impression is that some of the articles posted on GreenMedInfo and written by other authors are questionable. All can say at this point is be careful, and question everything you read, especially when it comes from a single source.

The article in question was written by Sayer Ji but I noticed that other authors started contributing and now there is a disclaimer that articles might not represent the views of greenmedinfo.com. I've corresponded with Sayer Ji before and I know that he is very open minded, inviting people to find holes and inconsistencies on his thesis and articles so he can improve them.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Unexpectedly I have been finding fat incredibly expensive here in UK. We render our own lard and have been trying to find free range pork fat. Initially we got it from our local butcher and that was, indeed, cheap. Then we got some free range one for £5.99 a kg (!). But when we were rendering it the smell and taste were so different from the previous one that we decided that despite the price, it was worth it. Since then I have been trying to find free range pork fat for cheaper, getting quotes of up to £8.00 a kg! I was not expecting that all. Recently we bought 15kg for £2.00 per kg, which isn't bad.

I also fully agree with what has been said in that eating a paleo diet ends up being cheaper. You eat a lot less, and feel more satisfied. And with organ meats that is even more pronounced. Liver in the morning can literally keep me fed for the entire day until dinner time.

How does the free range lard (or other fat) compare to the free range cuts of meat, especially more popular/expensive cuts per kilogram? Isn't it still much cheaper than meat from the same animal? Here, all the local animals are wild fed. The fat from pork is in the range of 25% to 1/3 the cost of the ground pork for burgers (which is usually quite fatty; if it's less fatty, I'll tell the butcher to add around 1/4 kilogram of fat to 2 to 3 Kilograms of ground pork) and also compared to pork chops (which have bones included in the weight, but are used for bone broth). It depends where I buy it from -- we buy from two places, a local butcher and one that also cooks on site, sort of butcher/BBQ restaurant.

Beef is quite lean here because of being wild/grass fed in mountainous terrain. So not a great source of fat in meat cuts (other than stew type cuts) and in general as tallow. But still a great source of organ meats. The most expensive all around is all things lamb. The breeds here are supposedly very highly esteemed. Even though it was always the most expensive, in the last couple of years, it's gotten even more so since large flocks are being bought up by buyers from all over the middle east and Europe.

Organ meats are in the range of 1/2 the price of the higher priced cuts of muscle meats (but around 75% of the price of cheaper cuts for stews, etc). I'm under the impression that organ meats and fats are cheaper because they are in less demand. Even here, where just one or two generations ago, organs and fat were the most valued, now it seems even those with money to eat meat often, want the higher priced muscle cuts.

 

[Ollie]

Unexpectedly I have been finding fat incredibly expensive here in UK. We render our own lard and have been trying to find free range pork fat. Initially we got it from our local butcher and that was, indeed, cheap. Then we got some free range one for £5.99 a kg (!). But when we were rendering it the smell and taste were so different from the previous one that we decided that despite the price, it was worth it. Since then I have been trying to find free range pork fat for cheaper, getting quotes of up to £8.00 a kg! I was not expecting that all. Recently we bought 15kg for £2.00 per kg, which isn't bad.

I've experienced the same thing, the butchers I use are complaining that the pigs are reared with too little fat. From one butcher I can get fat only after he has made his sausages and if he has any left. And, the organic butcher rarely has enough fat for his own sausages, although if he has excess he saves some for me. The cost is the same as for organic mince.

£2.00 per kilo - that's fantastic - where did you get it from?

 

[LQB]

As we post our testimonials, more people will feel encouraged to write theirs. Then we'll look everything as a whole and see patterns which will help for a development of a follow-up questionnaire that will gather more data according to a research protocol, details of which can be developed as we go along. It will be easier in the sense that it would have to be the sort of "yes or no" answers or numbers what has to be filled down. We can also remain open minded to the idea that we don't necessarily have to make an official study, but use the testimonials for a book. For instance, Life Without Bread includes graphs and studies that were not necessarily published, but were gathered by the writers. Other books just include testimonials to illustrate their health research. How about the following? :

- ....
-Have you done any kind of laboratory test (such as inflammatory markers, cholesterol panel, HbA1c, etc.) or medical test to monitor your progress or heath status? Will you please describe the results?

I got the lab test results back pretty quick. I'm 57 y/o male, 5'10", 154lbs, and have been under 20 gms carbs for at least 6 mos.

NAME VALUE REF Range
SED Rate 17 0-19

NA 140 136-145
K 4.4 3.5-5.1
CL 102 98-107
CO2 29 21-32
GLU 83 70-110
BUN 14 7-18
CREAT .9 .6-1.3
T PROT 8.2 6.4-8.2
ALB 4.2 3.4-5.0
CA 9.1 8.5-10.1
BILT .48 0-1
AST 15 15-37
ALT 33 30-65
ALK PHOS 114 50-136
GFR 93 <60 (Indicates Kidney disease)

TRIG 67 30-200
CHOL 336 >240 (High)
HDL 47 40-60
LDL CALC 276 >190 (Very High)

CRPHS .1 0-.3

MAG 2.0 1.8-2.4

HA1C 5.4 4.5-6.2

VITD25 31.8 30-100

TPSAS 2.63 0-4

BP 117/70

The doc thought everything was pretty good but wanted to put me on a statin stat! The high LDL stands out the worst for sure. The CRP looks pretty good, so nothing stands out there. But Vit D looks low. I've increased D supplement to 20,000IU per day.

The nurse was pretty shocked at the cholesterol numbers. The day I went in to see the doc about getting the tests, I wasn't expecting to have blood drawn immediately, but when he asked me if I had anything to eat that morn, I said no, so he ordered the blood drawn. I forgot that I had 2 glasses of black tea with a total of about 2 tablespoons of ghee (no sugars). When I told the nurse this (post test), she said that that was not enough to alter the test significantly. I'm wondering if I shouldn't have the test done again, and what I can do to reduce the LDL.

 

[SeekinTruth]

LQB, just a reminder that you should take vitamin K supplements along with the Vitamin D3 (perhaps a mix of K1 and K2 or a high quality K2). If you're eating lots of grass fed butter, natural/wild fed chicken eggs, etc., you should also be getting lots of vitamin K2 and be in good shape. Also if you can get at least 30 to 45 minutes of sun per day on as much of your body as possible close to 12PM, you'll eventually be in good shape with the Vitamin D status.

Your triglycerides look pretty good. I'm not sure if the 2 tablespoons of ghee in your 2 cups of tea didn't actually skew the lipid panel that much. Maybe someone else could give some feedback about that. Your CRPHS is also looking pretty good, so no indication of much inflammation. And your blood pressure's looking good too. HA1C is in the "normal" range too, but perhaps it will also improve even more with time?

 

[beetlemaniac]

HA1C is in the "normal" range too, but perhaps it will also improve even more with time?

I think that could be the case, considering HbA1C is a 3-month average measure of glycation in the blood.

 

[Gaby]

LQB, doing the test after having two tablespoons of ghee butter does skew the results. Your triglycerides are exc, but if you want, you can have another control down the road.

I'm also increasing my vitamin D dose to 11,000 IU plus vitamin K supplementation. I'm noticing some of the experiences described by the guy in the book like vivid dreams and joint aches here and there. Lets see how it goes.

 

[SeekinTruth]

By the way, I've upped my vitamin D3 to at least 11,000 IU too -- 5000 IU twice a day and one of the fish oils I take also has 1000 IU of D3. Also getting at least 1/2 hour of sun a day with just shorts on.

 

[Laura]

It's really amazing that GOOD cholesterol results are reacted to by mainstream medicine with "you need statins!" !!!

 

[LQB]

LQB, just a reminder that you should take vitamin K supplements along with the Vitamin D3 (perhaps a mix of K1 and K2 or a high quality K2). If you're eating lots of grass fed butter, natural/wild fed chicken eggs, etc., you should also be getting lots of vitamin K2 and be in good shape. Also if you can get at least 30 to 45 minutes of sun per day on as much of your body as possible close to 12PM, you'll eventually be in good shape with the Vitamin D status.

Your triglycerides look pretty good. I'm not sure if the 2 tablespoons of ghee in your 2 cups of tea didn't actually skew the lipid panel that much. Maybe someone else could give some feedback about that. Your CRPHS is also looking pretty good, so no indication of much inflammation. And your blood pressure's looking good too. HA1C is in the "normal" range too, but perhaps it will also improve even more with time?

Thanks ST. I process gallons at a time of Amish butter into ghee several times a year but I'm not sure if the heat doesn't affect the K content. But I do get plenty of pastured eggs from our chickens and take a good-sized gulp of Green Pasture's CLO/Butter Oil mix every couple days.

Yeah, I would think HA1C should come down more on the diet.

In the past, the WAPF folk (Masterjohn and others) have suggested additional Vit A with D - I think the CLO provides some extra Vit A.

 

[LQB]

LQB, doing the test after having two tablespoons of ghee butter does skew the results. Your triglycerides are exc, but if you want, you can have another control down the road.

I'm also increasing my vitamin D dose to 11,000 IU plus vitamin K supplementation. I'm noticing some of the experiences described by the guy in the book like vivid dreams and joint aches here and there. Lets see how it goes.

Thanks Psyche - I think I will redo some of these tests in a couple of months - it seemed to me that that much ghee would bias the results (I think the nurse was a bit shocked).

Just a note for others on these tests - they are not that expensive if you can do them through a doc that has a contract with a Lab. My local doc told me that he barely breaks even on the tests, but it's the only way he can get folks to pay for the tests he wants done. Total cost for all these tests was about $160 (less doc visit).

I haven't noticed any effects from 20,000 IU Vit D, but it has only been 2 days. Prior, I've been pretty consistent at 5000IU per day - apparently that was not cutting it.

My mother is going to have the same tests done today, so I'll post her results next week.

 

[LQB]

It's really amazing that GOOD cholesterol results are reacted to by mainstream medicine with "you need statins!" !!!

Yeah, they acted like it was an emergency!

 

[Gertrudes]

How does the free range lard (or other fat) compare to the free range cuts of meat, especially more popular/expensive cuts per kilogram? Isn't it still much cheaper than meat from the same animal?

It is cheaper, but not as much as I would have expected. It is about 80% cheaper then minced meat. At least for most quotes I got, but Prodigal Son seems to get it for the same price as minced meat.
The last butcher I called told me that pork fat is, at the moment, in high demand from restaurants.

£2.00 per kilo - that's fantastic - where did you get it from?

Interestingly, after having searched farms and even abattoirs throughout UK, including Scottland (!), I ended up finding it here in London. This one is a butcher based in west London, site: _http://www.hgwalter.com/deliveries.html and from what it says on their site they deliver nationwide :)