"Life Without Bread"
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mocachapeau
Dagobah Resident
Great video! That was a lot of fun.
mcb
The Living Force
Here is another "bacon" video, funny but not so "deep":
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSReSGe200A (Rub Some Bacon On It)
I have been taking time lately to explore the "Paleosphere," and it is helping me to make sense of what I have experienced over the past year. The information sources we have used here, including Life Without Break and Primal Body, Primal Mind are good, but they don't cover every possibility and I have had to continue to read, listen, and learn. The good results that I have seen consist mainly of four things:
[list type=decimal]
[*]No more hypoglycemia
[*]Steady weight (more or less)
[*]Gradual reversal of arthritis symptoms
[*]Gradual healing of anal/rectal damage caused by bran in my former diet
[/list]
My present diet has not led, however, to the kind of gut healing or weight loss that I had hoped for, and it is becoming apparent from my reading and listening (blogs and podcasts, mostly, not books) that this is not unusual for people with inflammation/autoimmune issues that are following this kind of diet.
Here in the Life Without Bread forum topic we arrived at this diet coming from what is known as the "very low carbohydrate" (VLC) approach. I have not encountered any definite threshold for what constitutes VLC. Some might say 30 grams/day, while others might say 100 grams/day or more. In other words VLC might or might not be ketogenic, but in a recent (a few minutes ago) unscientific random sample I found that most of the references to VLC that I encountered were indeed ketogenic levels. There is also ZC (zero carbs), which some here have tried. Quite a few people seem to have been successful with VLC; not so many with ZC. And a lot of people seem to have run into trouble with VLC after six months or so. I am one of those (my encounter with ZC lasted only a few weeks and I am not going back there!).
A common problem for people eating VLC to lose weight is that after so long they may cease to lose weight and may even start to gain again. There are other potential issues that I don't understand very well yet. Some people may experience an increase in insulin resistance, for example.
The New Atkins VLC approach presents the idea that when you greatly restrict carb intake and don't restrict fat intake, your body should shift into lipolysis and your appetite should respond positively to the fat and stop inducing you to eat all the time, and you should lose weight if that is what you need/want to do. You might even experience the "Atkins Edge." A number of other authors echo similar themes. It is a good plan, and it seems to work for some people, though I don't have a good feeling for how many. Even here in the forum it would be pretty hard to measure success. A poll might provide interesting feedback.
From what I can tell, the mechanisms for throwing a body out of whack by eating processed foods, excess carbs, and so on, are fairly well understood. How to reverse the damage, lose weight, and heal are not so clear, and seem to depend a lot on the individual. If you "plateau" on Atkins, in Ongoing Weight Loss (OWL), the remedy is simple: just keep the carbs low, indefinitely if necessary. It's a sacrifice some people just have to make. The trouble with this advice is that the plateau could be a warning sign, and there could be significant consequences for disregarding it.
When I hit that point, near the end of last year and about 6 months into VLC, I followed my instincts and reintroduced additional carbs, including one item that Atkins says to avoid during OWL -- sweet potatoes. Oddly enough, doing so restarted my weight loss (temporarily). It turns out that sweet potatoes have some pretty special properties, at least for some people, and that the Atkins approach is just plain wrong for some people! I wish I could lay out for you how it really works, but some pretty smart people are still working on that one. It's hard to figure out. If you are having problems, you have to experiment and to read, read, read.
As I have read, a central theme has emerged -- "It's the wheat!" By that I mean that in my personal history, the principle culprit (apart from congenital issues) seems to have been the consumption of wheat. It can damage you in SO many different ways, doing so slowly and subtly, so that you don't recognize the cause. Or you don't see it because everyone around you "knows" that wheat and its products are good to eat. (By the way, all fiber is not created equal -- wheat bran is an especially abrasive and damaging form of fiber. You may find that you tolerate fiber not from grains just fine, even if you thought that you needed to avoid it.)
Here is the thing: the Paleo community has its share of VLC advocates, but Paleo is not (exclusively) VLC. You can eat a healthy Paleo diet that is not VLC, and many people do. I have been afraid to try it, because I didn't want my hypoglycemia to return, and because I believed what I read in the Atkins book and other sources. But it is starting to look as though the real answer for me may not be a ketogenic diet but rather a grain free diet, totally eliminating wheat. Wheat may be where the hypoglycemia came from.
What really bugs me about ketogenic diet is the skin problems it has triggered. I have had some such problems for a very long time, but they tended to appear in the warmer months and disappear in winter, and it was just small patches around my waist. With lipolysis, though, I am a mess all the time. Fortunately it hasn't spread to where it shows. It goes from about my knees to my shoulders, in patches. On my torso it forms huge splotches, in places. I have made some progress with it, but this is not a good development.
I am probably not going to just go off and try a higher-carb diet. I need to know more about what is happening to me individually, so that I can make informed decisions instead of constantly guessing. I have been paying special attention to Chris Kresser lately and his blogs and podcasts. This is not because I think he has all the answers (he sure doesn't claim to), but because I like his approach to research, and because his office is less than two hours from my house. He is not an author so much as a trained health practitioner (not an MD) who actually sees patients. And he is apparently very familiar with the problems that VLC diet can induce.
The paleolithic period was not dominated by eskimos, as best we can tell. Some people ate VLC, but many did not. Some populations may have thrived on high-carb diets. Some lived in cold climates, some did not. None of them lived in the world that we do, with the food choices that we have now. You can be guided to some degree by what worked in the past, but you are going to have to choose according to what you can find now. If VLC or ZC works for you, do it (or not; your choice, but notice and respond if problems develop, right away or later on). If it doesn't work for you, don't just keep trying it, hoping that things will get better. You might pay quite a price for that. Don't get stuck on the idea that one approach is "optimal" above all others, for everyone. What is important is objective reality, not what seems important.
Whatever approach you try, I think it's pretty important to continue to network. There is so much that still isn't understood, and it is pretty difficult to go it alone. Each of us is different, but there are always things we have in common that enable us to learn from each other.
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSReSGe200A (Rub Some Bacon On It)
I have been taking time lately to explore the "Paleosphere," and it is helping me to make sense of what I have experienced over the past year. The information sources we have used here, including Life Without Break and Primal Body, Primal Mind are good, but they don't cover every possibility and I have had to continue to read, listen, and learn. The good results that I have seen consist mainly of four things:
[list type=decimal]
[*]No more hypoglycemia
[*]Steady weight (more or less)
[*]Gradual reversal of arthritis symptoms
[*]Gradual healing of anal/rectal damage caused by bran in my former diet
[/list]
My present diet has not led, however, to the kind of gut healing or weight loss that I had hoped for, and it is becoming apparent from my reading and listening (blogs and podcasts, mostly, not books) that this is not unusual for people with inflammation/autoimmune issues that are following this kind of diet.
Here in the Life Without Bread forum topic we arrived at this diet coming from what is known as the "very low carbohydrate" (VLC) approach. I have not encountered any definite threshold for what constitutes VLC. Some might say 30 grams/day, while others might say 100 grams/day or more. In other words VLC might or might not be ketogenic, but in a recent (a few minutes ago) unscientific random sample I found that most of the references to VLC that I encountered were indeed ketogenic levels. There is also ZC (zero carbs), which some here have tried. Quite a few people seem to have been successful with VLC; not so many with ZC. And a lot of people seem to have run into trouble with VLC after six months or so. I am one of those (my encounter with ZC lasted only a few weeks and I am not going back there!).
A common problem for people eating VLC to lose weight is that after so long they may cease to lose weight and may even start to gain again. There are other potential issues that I don't understand very well yet. Some people may experience an increase in insulin resistance, for example.
The New Atkins VLC approach presents the idea that when you greatly restrict carb intake and don't restrict fat intake, your body should shift into lipolysis and your appetite should respond positively to the fat and stop inducing you to eat all the time, and you should lose weight if that is what you need/want to do. You might even experience the "Atkins Edge." A number of other authors echo similar themes. It is a good plan, and it seems to work for some people, though I don't have a good feeling for how many. Even here in the forum it would be pretty hard to measure success. A poll might provide interesting feedback.
From what I can tell, the mechanisms for throwing a body out of whack by eating processed foods, excess carbs, and so on, are fairly well understood. How to reverse the damage, lose weight, and heal are not so clear, and seem to depend a lot on the individual. If you "plateau" on Atkins, in Ongoing Weight Loss (OWL), the remedy is simple: just keep the carbs low, indefinitely if necessary. It's a sacrifice some people just have to make. The trouble with this advice is that the plateau could be a warning sign, and there could be significant consequences for disregarding it.
When I hit that point, near the end of last year and about 6 months into VLC, I followed my instincts and reintroduced additional carbs, including one item that Atkins says to avoid during OWL -- sweet potatoes. Oddly enough, doing so restarted my weight loss (temporarily). It turns out that sweet potatoes have some pretty special properties, at least for some people, and that the Atkins approach is just plain wrong for some people! I wish I could lay out for you how it really works, but some pretty smart people are still working on that one. It's hard to figure out. If you are having problems, you have to experiment and to read, read, read.
As I have read, a central theme has emerged -- "It's the wheat!" By that I mean that in my personal history, the principle culprit (apart from congenital issues) seems to have been the consumption of wheat. It can damage you in SO many different ways, doing so slowly and subtly, so that you don't recognize the cause. Or you don't see it because everyone around you "knows" that wheat and its products are good to eat. (By the way, all fiber is not created equal -- wheat bran is an especially abrasive and damaging form of fiber. You may find that you tolerate fiber not from grains just fine, even if you thought that you needed to avoid it.)
Here is the thing: the Paleo community has its share of VLC advocates, but Paleo is not (exclusively) VLC. You can eat a healthy Paleo diet that is not VLC, and many people do. I have been afraid to try it, because I didn't want my hypoglycemia to return, and because I believed what I read in the Atkins book and other sources. But it is starting to look as though the real answer for me may not be a ketogenic diet but rather a grain free diet, totally eliminating wheat. Wheat may be where the hypoglycemia came from.
What really bugs me about ketogenic diet is the skin problems it has triggered. I have had some such problems for a very long time, but they tended to appear in the warmer months and disappear in winter, and it was just small patches around my waist. With lipolysis, though, I am a mess all the time. Fortunately it hasn't spread to where it shows. It goes from about my knees to my shoulders, in patches. On my torso it forms huge splotches, in places. I have made some progress with it, but this is not a good development.
I am probably not going to just go off and try a higher-carb diet. I need to know more about what is happening to me individually, so that I can make informed decisions instead of constantly guessing. I have been paying special attention to Chris Kresser lately and his blogs and podcasts. This is not because I think he has all the answers (he sure doesn't claim to), but because I like his approach to research, and because his office is less than two hours from my house. He is not an author so much as a trained health practitioner (not an MD) who actually sees patients. And he is apparently very familiar with the problems that VLC diet can induce.
The paleolithic period was not dominated by eskimos, as best we can tell. Some people ate VLC, but many did not. Some populations may have thrived on high-carb diets. Some lived in cold climates, some did not. None of them lived in the world that we do, with the food choices that we have now. You can be guided to some degree by what worked in the past, but you are going to have to choose according to what you can find now. If VLC or ZC works for you, do it (or not; your choice, but notice and respond if problems develop, right away or later on). If it doesn't work for you, don't just keep trying it, hoping that things will get better. You might pay quite a price for that. Don't get stuck on the idea that one approach is "optimal" above all others, for everyone. What is important is objective reality, not what seems important.
Whatever approach you try, I think it's pretty important to continue to network. There is so much that still isn't understood, and it is pretty difficult to go it alone. Each of us is different, but there are always things we have in common that enable us to learn from each other.
Megan, have you looked into/tried the leptin reset protocol? That, and additionally, cold adaptation seems to help many with ongoing weight issues / plateauing. There's some evidence that people become leptin resistant before becoming insulin resistant, connecting to metabolic derangement issues and problems keeping weight off.
Then there's the issue that not everyone can or should be at an "ideal" weight. If most of the health issues are improved, but some extra weight is retained, maybe that's just an individual thing to deal with toxic environmental conditions. Also quite a lot of toxins tend to accumulate in fat, so your skin problems (and maybe other problems) could be related to fat burning releasing old stored toxins, which would benefit from a detox support approach. FWIW.
Then there's the issue that not everyone can or should be at an "ideal" weight. If most of the health issues are improved, but some extra weight is retained, maybe that's just an individual thing to deal with toxic environmental conditions. Also quite a lot of toxins tend to accumulate in fat, so your skin problems (and maybe other problems) could be related to fat burning releasing old stored toxins, which would benefit from a detox support approach. FWIW.
Well said, Megan. Like you, I've had to deal with auto-immune issues as have my children to one degree or another. While in general, the paleo diet has worked wonders in so many ways, there are still some glitchy things that are requiring some study. Right now, I'm experimenting with higher doses of Vitamin D3 and K2 and that is interesting, to say the least. As you say, healing the damage takes time and isn't always straightforward.
So far we have found that some of us here can tolerate a bit more carbs than others; some less. Sweet potatoes seem to be generally good in modest amounts for about everyone. Beets and small amounts of salad and green beans are well tolerated. We experimented with cabbage and it was a definite, overall, no-go. I can do cashews, but not everyone can. (They have to be roasted.)
As you mention your skin problems, that is actually what is going on with Atriedes - he finally got a diagnosis: Verneuil's disease otherwise known as Hydradenitis Suppurative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidradenitis_suppurativa . Obviously, since he's already had three surgeries due to this condition and is actually going for another, it's fairly serious. He never had acne, he just got horrible boils on his neck and groin/sitting area. He lost well over 100 pounds on the paleo diet which, of course, makes him more comfortable in many ways, but still, this damn condition was already so advanced (which is what caused him to get serious about the diet to begin with) that turning it around isn't easy. Fortunately, one of the world's experts on the condition is not very far away.
One of the things we learned from another forum member who has this condition is the necessity for spending sufficient time each day in water and taking plenty of zinc. Those seem to be the two things that have done the most for him, believe it or not. When you read Elaine Morgen's book "Scars of Evolution", you can see that this condition is related to a possible aquatic adaptation stage in our evolution. (Probable, in fact.) You also learn that the food highest in zinc, which really tends to zap the condition happens to be oysters. However, as far as we can see, already existing fistulas have to be dealt with surgically. Thankfully, his doctor has developed a new technique utilizing fibrin centrifuged from the person's own blood.
Perhaps this is a line of research for you to look at to see if there are any similarities? Try the zinc?
So far we have found that some of us here can tolerate a bit more carbs than others; some less. Sweet potatoes seem to be generally good in modest amounts for about everyone. Beets and small amounts of salad and green beans are well tolerated. We experimented with cabbage and it was a definite, overall, no-go. I can do cashews, but not everyone can. (They have to be roasted.)
As you mention your skin problems, that is actually what is going on with Atriedes - he finally got a diagnosis: Verneuil's disease otherwise known as Hydradenitis Suppurative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidradenitis_suppurativa . Obviously, since he's already had three surgeries due to this condition and is actually going for another, it's fairly serious. He never had acne, he just got horrible boils on his neck and groin/sitting area. He lost well over 100 pounds on the paleo diet which, of course, makes him more comfortable in many ways, but still, this damn condition was already so advanced (which is what caused him to get serious about the diet to begin with) that turning it around isn't easy. Fortunately, one of the world's experts on the condition is not very far away.
One of the things we learned from another forum member who has this condition is the necessity for spending sufficient time each day in water and taking plenty of zinc. Those seem to be the two things that have done the most for him, believe it or not. When you read Elaine Morgen's book "Scars of Evolution", you can see that this condition is related to a possible aquatic adaptation stage in our evolution. (Probable, in fact.) You also learn that the food highest in zinc, which really tends to zap the condition happens to be oysters. However, as far as we can see, already existing fistulas have to be dealt with surgically. Thankfully, his doctor has developed a new technique utilizing fibrin centrifuged from the person's own blood.
Perhaps this is a line of research for you to look at to see if there are any similarities? Try the zinc?
I loose many pounds since the beginning of this low carbo diet but I feel much better. My question is: what kind of problems can we have if we continue to follow this diet in time? I take around 100 carbohydrates by day, and I erased from my diet all grains, gluten, milk and derivatives. I do this diet since around 3 months. Is this really a danger in continuing this diet?
Thanks for all the information all of you are giving and clues and readings you are doing. I think nutrition is a very complicated subject!
Thanks for all the information all of you are giving and clues and readings you are doing. I think nutrition is a very complicated subject!
loreta said:
I don't think that Megan was talking about a "danger" in the diet. We've certainly been doing it for a couple of years now and feel fine. Megan is talking about people with certain conditions that are difficult to resolve. I certainly understand her point of view since we have similar issues here to one extent or another. Staying about about 100 grams of carbs a day sounds about right for you. Others may want to stay lower and still others may be able to tolerate a bit more. It mainly seems to be the form of the carb: simple carbs are apparently more damaging than the slow-break-down types. After a time, you can experiment with other veggies, but take care with that. Our experiment with cabbage was a bit painful! Mainly, staying away from grains and dairy seems to be the most important element - seed-type foods overall - so unless you have a problem, you don't have a problem.
That's interesting about the zinc, Laura. I wonder if it's also connected to copper toxicity? Zinc deficiency and copper toxicity/overabundance tend to be associated.
About the fistulas, I read years ago that it's related to gut issues. I actually had one on my tailbone starting in the last couple of years in high school (my brother had it also and my father had it when he was young and had some kind of surgery that took care of it for the rest of his life). Now, from my brother (and my father's experience he related) and a bunch of other people who had this in the same area -- on or around the tailbone, everyone else would have periods where it would swell with lots of pain, and then a wound would open and drain. And then it would close for a while.
In my case, when it was in the very early stage of starting, I actually banged my tailbone on a hard surface, and then the swelling and pain started. For a couple of years, mine never opened and drained. Then, it opened and never closed -- it was pretty much perpetually draining, but the pain was much less. After almost two years of the open wound, and the whole time my mother kept nagging me to go to a doctor and get it taken care of (she kept fearing that I'd get "blood poisoning") I finally scheduled a surgery to cut it out. Well when the surgeon went in to cut out what was an open wound of a 1/4 inch and surrounding slight swelling of about 3/4 inch diameter, he ended up cutting huge amounts of flesh and muscle on the very lower back and right on the top part of my butt. It was real hell for the next couple of weeks.
I had to go a couple of times for the doctor to check on the healing. After the stitches were taken out, he "burned the open flesh" with nitrogen a couple of times that was supposed to help it heal faster. Well, in my case, it never came back again and healed well. The thing is, that years later, when I was 39, I got prostatitis, which is treated with high doses of zinc for several months, among other things. And it has a large component of severe biochemical imbalances that start the process which could be cured with dietary changes and supplements for about 6 months. What I'm thinking now is, I wonder if the lack of zinc/too much copper was already a problem that manifested in the fistula in my late teens-early twenties.
At the time I was doing research on prostate problems, there was a statistic that at least 50% of men age 40 or over are expected to have enlarged prostate, which is a precursor of prostatitis. Well, I'm convinced that such alarming numbers, like so many other things, are connected to a lifetime of the totally wrong diet, and probably stress, toxic buildup, and chemical imbalances, etc.
Just a note. About ten years or so ago, a second cousin of mine who also had the cyclical fistula opening/closing told my brother that he read somewhere that black pepper was a culprit. And he (and my brother) used to eat large amounts of black pepper. When my cousin cut it out completely, it went away in a month or two. My brother tried just cutting down to almost complete abstention from black pepper and his also went away. But for years if he had a considerable amount of black pepper for a couple of days, the irritation and pain would start again. Then after several years of totally avoiding black pepper it resolved completely and now he eats black pepper regularly (though more sparingly) and has no problems. I don't know what the mechanism behind is, but thought I'd mention it as something for others to consider/look into.
About the fistulas, I read years ago that it's related to gut issues. I actually had one on my tailbone starting in the last couple of years in high school (my brother had it also and my father had it when he was young and had some kind of surgery that took care of it for the rest of his life). Now, from my brother (and my father's experience he related) and a bunch of other people who had this in the same area -- on or around the tailbone, everyone else would have periods where it would swell with lots of pain, and then a wound would open and drain. And then it would close for a while.
In my case, when it was in the very early stage of starting, I actually banged my tailbone on a hard surface, and then the swelling and pain started. For a couple of years, mine never opened and drained. Then, it opened and never closed -- it was pretty much perpetually draining, but the pain was much less. After almost two years of the open wound, and the whole time my mother kept nagging me to go to a doctor and get it taken care of (she kept fearing that I'd get "blood poisoning") I finally scheduled a surgery to cut it out. Well when the surgeon went in to cut out what was an open wound of a 1/4 inch and surrounding slight swelling of about 3/4 inch diameter, he ended up cutting huge amounts of flesh and muscle on the very lower back and right on the top part of my butt. It was real hell for the next couple of weeks.
I had to go a couple of times for the doctor to check on the healing. After the stitches were taken out, he "burned the open flesh" with nitrogen a couple of times that was supposed to help it heal faster. Well, in my case, it never came back again and healed well. The thing is, that years later, when I was 39, I got prostatitis, which is treated with high doses of zinc for several months, among other things. And it has a large component of severe biochemical imbalances that start the process which could be cured with dietary changes and supplements for about 6 months. What I'm thinking now is, I wonder if the lack of zinc/too much copper was already a problem that manifested in the fistula in my late teens-early twenties.
At the time I was doing research on prostate problems, there was a statistic that at least 50% of men age 40 or over are expected to have enlarged prostate, which is a precursor of prostatitis. Well, I'm convinced that such alarming numbers, like so many other things, are connected to a lifetime of the totally wrong diet, and probably stress, toxic buildup, and chemical imbalances, etc.
Just a note. About ten years or so ago, a second cousin of mine who also had the cyclical fistula opening/closing told my brother that he read somewhere that black pepper was a culprit. And he (and my brother) used to eat large amounts of black pepper. When my cousin cut it out completely, it went away in a month or two. My brother tried just cutting down to almost complete abstention from black pepper and his also went away. But for years if he had a considerable amount of black pepper for a couple of days, the irritation and pain would start again. Then after several years of totally avoiding black pepper it resolved completely and now he eats black pepper regularly (though more sparingly) and has no problems. I don't know what the mechanism behind is, but thought I'd mention it as something for others to consider/look into.
SeekinTruth said:
How interesting about black pepper.
I had the same problem with a fistula in my tailbone some years ago. A very suffering situation, took antibiotics, went to urgency to opened it 3 times! Finally my doctor told me that the best solution was an operation. I accepted it because I was living literally hell. I was put in a waiting list. And then she gave me again antibiotics....for the third time. Before taking it I went to see an homeopathic specialist, a friend of mine. She asked me not to take again the antibiotics, instead take Silicea 9CH and to put green clay on my fistula almost 3 times a day. And miracle: my fistula disappeared after 2 months of this treatment. Later it came again, I follow the same treatment and it worked. In my case I think it was related with big big stress situation, it was like an emotional response. I believe also that fistulas can be cured with clay, with the help of Homeopathic medicine. The clay absorbs the fistula (I don't know how to express this but you understand). And Silicea helps.
This is my experience with the worst fistula I had in my life. Maybe this can help.