"Life Without Bread"

Psyche said:
LadyRodgers said:
Are others having any side effects related to following this Paleo diet? I’ve been following it for about a month, yes I’ve slipped here and there, but really for the most part I’ve cut out all grains, corn, sugar, beans, etc...
I have lost about 12 lbs, my skin is tighter, I generally feel better, and I've noticed that my reading comprehension is much better! I've also noticed that my water retention is less, no more swollen ankles, and my double chin is slowly diminishing…
But I’m also very sore in my joints, but maybe this is because I’m looser and my neck and back are “popping” a lot. I just wanted to know if anyone else has experienced this.

We've been reporting our experiences and tips in the thread "Life Without Bread". Perhaps we should merge both this threads into one.

Good to hear about your progress. Make sure to take some potassium and perhaps some DMSO cream for your pains.

Hi LadyRodgers,

In the link Psyche has posted some members have reported feeling sore joints, it seems that this is mainly due to having too much protein and not enough fat. There are also suggestions (on that same thread) of how to get the fat versus meat ratio right, as too much meat seems to build up excessive uric acid and potentially lead to fatigue and sore joints.

Added: Oops, just noticed that the threads have already been merged.
 
Gertrudes said:
Hi LadyRodgers,

In the link Psyche has posted some members have reported feeling sore joints, it seems that this is mainly due to having too much protein and not enough fat. There are also suggestions (on that same thread) of how to get the fat versus meat ratio right, as too much meat seems to build up excessive uric acid and potentially lead to fatigue and sore joints.

Added: Oops, just noticed that the threads have already been merged.

As some of you know, Ark and I spent a couple days with friends last week. What was interesting about this was, despite our friends willingness to accomodate our dietary needs, they were not well-educated about it and some things they had available simply had to be refused and we had to make do with what was available.

First, there was no ghee and just about everything these folks had was "low fat." So, I had to make do with some serrano ham spread with butter. The butter was "soft" in a tub. That is, it was real butter but with some stuff added and done to it to make it soft. Okay.... I figured I needed some fat desperately, so there it went. Same with the steak we were served. I loaded it with this butter, and the green beans as well. We ate at a restaurant and I had shrimps and a lobster concoction that was delicious, but even though I carefully instructed the waitress, I still wasn't sure. Finally, I DID have some sorbet that I was assured contained no dairy.

Now, the thing is, normally, I don't eat butter because for a very long time, even the tiniest bit of milk protein will send my joints straight into inflammation. There was some milk protein in this butter I ate. I suspect the sorbet, also. Not to mention the sugar! (I did keep it below 72 grams of carbs per day, though!)

On the way home, there wasn't anything at the rest stops that was edible - all the packaged meats had milk protein and wheat and sugars and MSG added, so I bought a bag of cashews and Ark and I munched on them. I expected to have a severe reaction to the nuts since I usually do.

Well, surprise, surprise! I had no reactions to anything at all! I was tired, of course - it was a four hour drive each way - but I didn't go directly to inflammation hell!

We've been talking about it and speculating that staying on the meat/fat/low carb diet for a few months may very well enable healing of leaky gut, not to mention complete curing of any candida issues (which contribute to leaky gut).

This has made us wonder if we might be able to open the door slightly to other types of fats which would make life a lot easier. Perhaps, if candida is defeated and leaky gut is healed, some things that are generally evil to the system (like certain proteins) could be better tolerated because they are digested and passed through and NOT allowed to pass into the blood via the leaky gut? Butter fat and cream, for example. Obviously, one does not want to ever increase the carbs because that seems to be a fixed rule, but perhaps even those who are sensitive to certain proteins due to leaky gut might be able to heal this condition and allow a few other things into the diet such as cream, butter, nuts, eggs - all things that I have not been able to eat for a few years now. For most of those few years, I wasn't focused on the carb level, and I was eating a lot of veggies that we now know keep the digestive tract in a state of irritation and fermentation. Now, after a few months of the low carb, high protein/fat diet, I seem to be able to tolerate regular butter and nuts!!! I'm going to test eggs very soon, and some more nuts. Later, I'll test cream though the guys here have decided to test the cream now because they are absolutely desperate to find other sources of fat to meet their energy needs.

That, of course, leads to the idea that some cheeses may be re-introduced though I admit that I'm a little negative about this after having such bad experiences with ANY milk proteins.

What do ya'll think about this further experimentation?
 
L said:
That, of course, leads to the idea that some cheeses may be re-introduced though I admit that I'm a little negative about this after having such bad experiences with ANY milk proteins.

What do ya'll think about this further experimentation?

I'm willing to sacrifice and test some cheese. ;)

The level of casein seems to decrease with fermentation so old fermented cheese (1 y.o. parmesan, 18 months old Conté for example) should have lower levels of casein. Anyway casein seems to be able to reach the blood stream only if the gut is leaking.
 
Laura said:
Well, surprise, surprise! I had no reactions to anything at all! I was tired, of course - it was a four hour drive each way - but I didn't go directly to inflammation hell!

I'm also very surprised to see that I have no allergies after eating sausages for 4 days in a row. Usually by now I should have hay fever, especially in spring time because of the spices in the sausage. I also ate other meats with spices during the last few days. I have no trouble, not even itchy eyes. It's a miracle, I'm cured! ;) And those sausages really makes a difference at breakfast! Check out the video on how to make them here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhgNufnjfZU&feature=player_profilepage

Well, the ones I had have less spices. But traditionally, just even a little bit of herbs will set me off.
 
Laura said:
What do ya'll think about this further experimentation?
I have done some testing on myself, and I seem to be able to tolerate fullfat feta-cheese, creme fraiche 38%, cream and butter. As long as I stick to a diet with carbs around 50g or below I'm fine. Makes life a LOT easier and yummier.
50g of local strawberries with a spoonfull cremefraiche and some vanilla, makes a wonderful dessert ;D

I still can't tolerate nuts though, makes my joints hurt!
 
I lost another 5 pounds in the last 2 weeks and I,m desperate to stop that weigh lost. I eat nut and eggs almost every day, started adding coconut milk to my home made granola in the morning to elevate the fat intake but it seem that it is not enough yet. I volunteer to try creme fraiche like Helle if I can find it biologic. My energy level is increasing, so I'm not to worry with the weight lost and I have been working quit physically is the last 2 weeks as well. I'm back to my teenager weight and eat like one.
 
Laura said:
What do ya'll think about this further experimentation?

I think that's a great idea, possibly even retest all foods again, to open up more options - and here I'm thinking about meat types, quantity of eggs, coconut oil, etc, as well. Even before moving onto a high fat (probably still not high enough) and high protein, low carb diet I was OK with butter. Using creamery butter is a lot easier than having to convert it into ghee. :) In the past I used to use yogurt to make sauces, not certain about the fermentation though.
 
Laurentien said:
I lost another 5 pounds in the last 2 weeks and I,m desperate to stop that weigh lost. I eat nut and eggs almost every day, started adding coconut milk to my home made granola in the morning to elevate the fat intake but it seem that it is not enough yet. I volunteer to try creme fraiche like Helle if I can find it biologic. My energy level is increasing, so I'm not to worry with the weight lost and I have been working quit physically is the last 2 weeks as well. I'm back to my teenager weight and eat like one.

Your granola might be accelerating your weight loss. As Taubes explains in "Why We Get Fat," there seem to be two ways that insulin works on people: in one way, it causes immediate storage of carbs as fat; in other people, it causes major burn off of energy. So if you are not eating meat for breakfast, eliminating grains and most carbs, you are really just burning your reserves off by triggering the insulin.
 
Trevrizent said:
Laura said:
What do ya'll think about this further experimentation?

I think that's a great idea, possibly even retest all foods again, to open up more options - and here I'm thinking about meat types, quantity of eggs, coconut oil, etc, as well. Even before moving onto a high fat (probably still not high enough) and high protein, low carb diet I was OK with butter. Using creamery butter is a lot easier than having to convert it into ghee. :) In the past I used to use yogurt to make sauces, not certain about the fermentation though.

You might want to continue to eliminate yogurt and just stick to the milk fat. I don't think that casein is good for anybody the same as gluten isn't.
 
Laura said:
What do ya'll think about this further experimentation?

This is a really great idea and thank you for reporting these great news.

So I like to test eggs again, don't even remember when I ate the last one it seems like it is some ages ago.

And how do I know if my gut is healed, or still recovering? As far as I can tell I have no itchy candida symptoms anymore, which was sometime ago a little bit unnerving.
 
Laurentien said:
I lost another 5 pounds in the last 2 weeks and I,m desperate to stop that weigh lost. I eat nut and eggs almost every day, started adding coconut milk to my home made granola in the morning to elevate the fat intake but it seem that it is not enough yet. I volunteer to try creme fraiche like Helle if I can find it biologic. My energy level is increasing, so I'm not to worry with the weight lost and I have been working quit physically is the last 2 weeks as well. I'm back to my teenager weight and eat like one.

I'm getting pretty skinny, too! For the last 10 years or so I've hovered around 150 lbs, but now I'm down to 140. My carb intake is pretty minimal: 3-5 skinny blinis and a small portion of sweet potatoes with breakfast. I usually react to certain nuts, but when I was on a trip last month I had a lot of almond butter that didn't seem to cause any reaction. So I'm thinking I might try that. Other than that, I'm eating a lot of bacon, eggs, sausage and other meats, and of course lots of lard.
 
Laura said:
What do ya'll think about this further experimentation?

It's funny you should bring this up today. I was just out for dinner last night with my parents and we went to a hipster diner type place. Nothing on the menu was really diet-appropriate, so I decided to go for their big all-day breakfast - eggs, bacon, sausage, pemeal bacon, hashbrown potatoes and salad (hold the toast). I ate it all, despite the fact that their could have been evil in the sausage, I haven't tested eggs in awhile and who knows what else was lurking in the meal. I was worried, but despite a very slight gurgling in the stomach last night, I've noticed no issues.

I'm obviously not just going to drop the drawbridge entirely and let a bunch of evil stuff in, but it's good to know that some things can be let back in cautiously and that I'm not going to explode if I eat at a restaurant every so often.

Regarding casein, I've been reading Dr. Kurt Harris' Archevore blog (http://www.archevore.com). He's pretty in-line with the thinking here on the forum in regards to diet (eliminate all grains, keep carbs low, although he doesn't think people need to stay in ketosis, necessarily, but they can). Anyway, he says that casein is really only an issue if the gut is made leaky from grain consumption. I think he still tells people to lay off it for the most part, especially early on in the transition, but does allow for butter and full fat cream later on.

So perhaps casein doesn't cause havoc unless it's getting into the blood through a leaky gut. I've been thinking about testing this out slowly, but I don't think I'll be going back to cheese anytime soon.
 
Nicolas said:
RedFox said:
agni said:
RedFox said:
If you are not use to eating lots of meat (make sure you're not having more than 250g-300g of meat a day though) you can get a build up of uric acid which leads to fatigue/joint pain. Eating the lemon will help your body remove the uric acid quickly.

Thank you for bringing it up RedFox. I can account for that. I've been having 1 lbs (~450g) of meat a day, and in one meal, for about a month and ended up with exactly that - joint pain and fatigue. I could not figure out why. I reduced amounts of meat intuitively to half of what I ate and it's all good now.

I was eating about 500g of meat a day before the high fat/low carb diet. I never got joint pain but was trying to track down fatigue and brain fog (inflammation) with little success, so its possible I was eating too much protein. It was Megan who first mentioned this.

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
Unsafe levels of protein. It has been observed that human liver cannot metabolise much more than 200-300 g of protein per day, and human kidneys are similarly limited in their capability to remove urea (a byproduct of protein catabolism) from the bloodstream. Exceeding that amount results in excess levels of amino acids, ammonia (hyperammonemia), and/or urea in the bloodstream, with potentially fatal consequences[1], especially if the person switches to a high-protein diet without giving time for the levels of his hepatic enzymes to upregulate. Since protein only contains 4 kcal/gram, and, as mentioned above, a typical adult human requires in excess of 2000 kcal to maintain the energy balance, it is possible to exceed the safe intake of protein if one is subjected to a high-protein diet with little if any fat or carbohydrates. However, given the lack of scientific data on the effects of high-protein diets, and the observed ability of the liver to compensate over a few days for a shift in protein intake, the US Food and Nutrition Board does not set a Tolerable Upper Limit nor upper Acceptable Macronutrient Distribution Range for protein.[2]

Sorry RedFox but I am a bit confused here. When you talk about 300g of meat or 300g of protein, there is a huge difference.

For example: using the USDA Nutrient Data Lab online search directory (_http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/index.php?info_center=4&tax_level=1&tax_subject=279), for a 450g (1lbs) of cooked 72% lean ground pork, we have 101g of protein and 141g of fat. So, in order to reach 300g of protein, you would need to eat 1,350g (3 lbs) of ground pork!

Gotta agree with Nicolas here, RedFox. There is a huge difference between 300g of meat and 300g of protein, as his example illustrates. I'm usually eating 300g or more of meat at a single meal. I think the concern of 'rabbit starvation' is going a little overboard here. If you're eating a lot of fat, I don't think it's really a concern and you'll definitely start to show some very real symptoms before it becomes much of an issue (insatiable appetite, for one).

FWIW
 
Laura said:
Well, surprise, surprise! I had no reactions to anything at all! I was tired, of course - it was a four hour drive each way - but I didn't go directly to inflammation hell!

Funny you should mention this, it happened the same to me. When my diet became more rigorous I could not tolerate ANY fats apart from olive oil. Now I gorge on them. I also couldn't eat much red meat at once, not to even mention fatty red meat, that would have been suicide! For years I experienced becoming bloated, extremely full, sleepy and foggy headed after such a meal. Nowadays, it almost feels like everything is digested the instant it arrives to my stomach. I also suffered from nuts and cocoa allergies for years. They are both gone!

I think that it is sensible to test other fats, particularly if casein can only enter the blood stream if there is the case of a leaky gut. In my case, I will abstain from testing any dairy for now. I used to react to milk since I was a child and have to make sure everything is working properly inside me before I venture. Also, I think that my Candida is going to take a long time to heal. Although I no longer have any die off symptoms, I got some skin rashes when I started the Candida diet that haven't yet disappeared, so I figured it is still there.
I'm also struggling with IBS that makes me very bloated at times and I haven't yet been able to tell exactly what does it (apart from having large meals), so I figure that my gut is not ready for hard core testing.
I look forward to hear everyone's experiences though, we might get some very good surprises.


AI said:
I'm getting pretty skinny, too! For the last 10 years or so I've hovered around 150 lbs, but now I'm down to 140. My carb intake is pretty minimal: 3-5 skinny blinis and a small portion of sweet potatoes with breakfast. I usually react to certain nuts, but when I was on a trip last month I had a lot of almond butter that didn't seem to cause any reaction. So I'm thinking I might try that. Other than that, I'm eating a lot of bacon, eggs, sausage and other meats, and of course lots of lard.

Same here. I've always been skinny, but I'm even skinnier now. I have been barely eating any carbs though, so that might be the cause. My source of carbs is mainly coconut and low carb veggies, I'm not even eating root vegetables so as to not feed my Candida.
Sometimes I just eat small spoons of fat here and there, and am finding it hard to find the ideal fat versus meat ratio. I went through about 2, 3 weeks of fatigue, which could have been from either adjusting to the diet or too much meat consumption at the time.
Lately I have just been adding very large chunks of fat to my meat and veggies, eating coconut, avocado and nuts. Quite frankly I'm loving eating fat, makes everything much yummier, not to mention that my skin, hair and nails look shinier.
 
dugdeep said:
Gotta agree with Nicolas here, RedFox. There is a huge difference between 300g of meat and 300g of protein, as his example illustrates. I'm usually eating 300g or more of meat at a single meal. I think the concern of 'rabbit starvation' is going a little overboard here. If you're eating a lot of fat, I don't think it's really a concern and you'll definitely start to show some very real symptoms before it becomes much of an issue (insatiable appetite, for one).

I do hope we're pointing to 300g of protein, I sure eat more then 300g of meat per day :/
 
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