"Life Without Bread"

[jhonny]

Just a note on eggs.

Before taking glutamine and lactoferrin (which I primarily take for gut healing) I could eat eggs with no problems (or so I thought). But after about 2 months of not having eggs, and reintroducing them (fried) I felt a stomach ache. No other symptoms though, but just some pain in the stomach. So it seems to me atleast that my gut is healing as it is better able to alert me. However, I don't seem to have the same kind of problem with a hard-boiled egg.

something weird happened to my wife, she couldn't eat eggs as breakfast because she feels stomach aches but when she ate them as lunch it doesn't happen. I have to say that she doesn't follow the diet strictly as I do, she has not cut gluten and dairy completely.

 

[Nienna]

Thanks for the replies, I should be able to cut out the rice & oats without a problem. I'm not sure how to check my blood sugar levels. I don't really feel any difference yet but I haven't been doing this for very long. I guess I will start to feel better once enough time has passed eating the right foods.

And yeah I was going to ask that also, if there was a rough list/guide of foods that are recommended/not recommended by this forum specifically. It would be a great help for some of us to get started while we then go through all the threads/books.

Please read the entire thread, Rhythmik. Many of your questions are answered there. Also, as has been suggested, get the book Life Without Bread for starters and then Primal Body, Primal Mind. You really shouldn't do something without knowing how and why.

 

[Search]

Are you making sure to get enough fat? Have you read Primal Body, Primal Mind yet? When I made dietary adjustments and didn't do the reading first, I ended up consuming way too much protein and not enough fat, so it really is extremely important to do the reading first.

Hi Foxx, I knew very a little about it almost nothing. I haven't read the Primal Body, Primal Mind yet. As I said, I usually eat pork and it is usually with some lard which is fatty. Also I can eat some lard separately or with meat. Thanks for reply and advice.

Also It is much more easier for me to stay on my diet, when I'm alone with my wife, because at the time I started to changing my diet we were in a village. (It wasn't easy with all this 'holy bread ' stuff around, however I can't say that it was very difficult. And according to that I really enjoy meat it wasn't so hard for me, and maybe also because I'm young and my body don't poisoned as much during the life.) Her grandpa died and we stayed with her uncle who has schizophrenia. He said to me that now I would be his father, however I can say I'm still children myself. I think I tell more about it in other thread. Back to the diet. My wife also eliminate gluten-dairy totally, however she even didn't believe herself that she would do it. As it is turns out she is much more sensitive to gluten and diary as I do. The results were striking. She has a terrible pain during her period. Sometimes she even calls ambulance and took a lot of painkillers. And it lasts usually 2 days. For a few months, after changing her diet, she didn't have such pain. (I can say it was like 'hell' at that time and 'heaven' now) Also she slips much less, she has no fatigue, no laziness, depression after dietary changes. And there a lot of other stuff.

I saw a lot of times how now my body reacts on sugar, it would be interesting to know how my body reacts on gluten or dairy but I don't want to make such experiments. :)

Also when I full of meat, I don't want to eat for a long time and don't want to eat something else. I lost my weight, as far as I understand, it is normal when you are changing to such diet, but usually people have a problem with overweight, I have the opposite, underweight. However I can't say that it is a problem, because it doesn't bother me physically. I don't count my carbs intake because I eat only a little of garlic and onion. If I would eat something more, I think, I should count.
I'm fine with having the same pork and I don't mind not having varieties in my food. (My wife really likes to cook and now we cook the same thing again and again :) )
Also I do not eat 4-5 hours before going to sleep (only rarely happens that I eat later)

This topic began with a discussion of a particular book, Life Without Bread, which teaches about paleo diet and offers a simple limited carb non-ketogenic diet plan. Since then we have read a lot of other books, and discussed paleo diets endlessly. I think it is still important for those that are interested what this forum is about, and not simply looking for paleo diet information, to read this entire topic.

This topic, however, is not structured as a how-to paleo eating guide, and I wonder if we couldn't point people now to one or more of the existing paleo books that are structured guides. There are better books now than the "New Atkins" book, that don't include most of the foods that we avoid here. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be necessary to read a whole pile of books and learn how to piece the information from them together, just to get started with a paleo diet. It's not that complicated, and you don't even need to go very low carb (VLC) at the beginning. More and more writers are recommending a gradual transition, anyway.

I am not at all sure what book(s) to recommend, though. My problem is that I don't read paleo diet books any more. I already have the idea of what to do and I read blogs (and research articles) and listen to podcasts. I would be willing to read a few more if it would help to establish a recommendation, however.

Earlier I mentioned one that I have read most of - Sweet Potato Power, and it is good, but I don't know that it is the best of its kind. There is a book about to be released that is receiving very favorable reviews, Practical Paleo by Diane Sanfilippo, but it is not even available to purchase yet. It is coming out August 7th. I have heard quite a bit about it from the author, but I haven't been able to review it.

A paleo diet book cannot, of course, replace all of the other reading that needs to be done. It can, however, help people start to safely straighten out their diets while they they are still doing all that reading. What do the rest of you think? Do you have any book recommendations?

Or maybe we should write one :D

I think it would be useful, maybe even for these who are already know a lot about it.

something weird happened to my wife, she couldn't eat eggs as breakfast because she feels stomach aches but when she ate them as lunch it doesn't happen. I have to say that she doesn't follow the diet strictly as I do, she has not cut gluten and dairy completely.

If 90% eliminating gluten, and 10% not it doesn't work, the same with the dairy, as I understand. And a little part of it stays in your body for a long time. But it is up to her and maybe it is easier for her at first eliminate not fully, than more fully and than totally.

 

[Rhythmik]

Please read the entire thread, Rhythmik. Many of your questions are answered there. Also, as has been suggested, get the book Life Without Bread for starters and then Primal Body, Primal Mind. You really shouldn't do something without knowing how and why.

OK thanks, just ordered the books :)

 

[Search]

Also I forget to say that I don't know if I can find pastured meat here. We found one lady who sells the meat; she collects live pigs grown in the villages. As far as I know, porks here in the villages are usually grown in the closed area (building), they are lucky if they are set free to run for a while (if it happens, it happens really rarely ). Usually they feed them with potatoes, beetroots, potatoes peals and some vegetables left overs; some can gave some sort of chemicals for it to grow faster. However, it the better source that I can find here and it is really different from the store-bought ones. Also I can buy a live pig in the village, but I need to know how it was fed. It'll be the chirpiest way, I was thinking about it and want to do so, and I think, I will, when I’d be able to.

 

[MK Scarlett]

This topic began with a discussion of a particular book, Life Without Bread, which teaches about paleo diet and offers a simple limited carb non-ketogenic diet plan. Since then we have read a lot of other books, and discussed paleo diets endlessly. I think it is still important for those that are interested what this forum is about, and not simply looking for paleo diet information, to read this entire topic.

This topic, however, is not structured as a how-to paleo eating guide, and I wonder if we couldn't point people now to one or more of the existing paleo books that are structured guides. There are better books now than the "New Atkins" book, that don't include most of the foods that we avoid here. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be necessary to read a whole pile of books and learn how to piece the information from them together, just to get started with a paleo diet. It's not that complicated, and you don't even need to go very low carb (VLC) at the beginning. More and more writers are recommending a gradual transition, anyway.

I am not at all sure what book(s) to recommend, though. My problem is that I don't read paleo diet books any more. I already have the idea of what to do and I read blogs (and research articles) and listen to podcasts. I would be willing to read a few more if it would help to establish a recommendation, however.

Earlier I mentioned one that I have read most of - Sweet Potato Power, and it is good, but I don't know that it is the best of its kind. There is a book about to be released that is receiving very favorable reviews, Practical Paleo by Diane Sanfilippo, but it is not even available to purchase yet. It is coming out August 7th. I have heard quite a bit about it from the author, but I haven't been able to review it.

A paleo diet book cannot, of course, replace all of the other reading that needs to be done. It can, however, help people start to safely straighten out their diets while they they are still doing all that reading. What do the rest of you think? Do you have any book recommendations?

Or maybe we should write one :D

I had the same thought some days ago by reading the last posts I had missed... ;)

By the way, thank you all for the amazing work which is done here, because and even if I do not post very often, my life and body pretty changed from almost 10 months now and all the advantages are explained in this thread.

 

[mcb]

Or maybe we should write one :D

We could but I don't know how practical that would be, especially considering all of the individual variation that we have encountered. We started out with a couple of paleo books, Life Without Bread and Primal Body, Primal Mind, along with a low-carb "how-to" book, The New Atkins for a New You, and the technical book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Reading (also Atkins-oriented). Some of us also incorporated another paleo book, Deep Nutrition. The paleo books are basically OK, but the only how-to one is LWB, and it is an early one that doesn't include a lot of information that newer ones do.

The New Atkins book is a decent how-to guide, but look at what it includes in its food recommendations: soy, dairy, toxic salad dressings (made with vegetable oil), toxic vegetable oils themselves, toxic low-cal sweeteners, inflammatory seasonings, legumes, low carb grain products, booze, and more -- basically "everything in moderation." While its instructions and troubleshooting guides are fairly good (apart from the "dive-in" very low carb guidance), we could never endorse its food recommendations and it was always necessary to put it together with a paleo book like PBPM for it to be useful.

I just think we need one or more how-to book recommendations that are fundamentally paleo and also provide clear guidance and safety information. People need to read the other books like LWB and PBPM and The Vegetarian Myth for the information they contain, but it shouldn't be necessary to absorb all that information first before starting a paleo diet, especially when starting with a moderate (not very-low-carb) version and transitioning more gradually toward a ketogenic diet.

I am saying this from experience. I started out with the LWB diet, which is a moderate paleo diet, not ketogenic, and I saw my most important results of the past year immediately! My blood sugar stabilized within a few days, and I was able to confirm that my weight gain had stopped within a week or so afterward (which is to say my appetite "fixed" itself). That is what a "mere" paleo diet can do. Later on I transitioned to a ketogenic diet, and while it seems to be leading where I want to go it has not been a pleasant journey. This is not surprising considering my medical history, but it also doesn't seem to be all that uncommon among members of this forum.

We might be able to identify one book as a recommended starting point, and then others that address specific individual issues. My interest in Sweet Potato Power, for example, is because my body seems to want to be on a higher-carb ketogenic diet. My sense is that this might make a good "second" book, but that there might be a better "first" recommendation. What I would NOT recommend any longer is the "New Atkins" book, because of its bad food recommendations and its relative emphasis on starting out on a ketogenic diet, which can be problematic and even dangerous for some individuals, and will not necessarily lead to long-term weight loss.

After a year of experimenting, I am not sure that the New Atkins theory of weight loss is even valid -- that a "carbohydrate level of losing" (CLL) for a ketogenic diet can be found that promotes weight loss. It might be true for a significant number of individuals, but there are too many stories from the paleo community of it not working, including my own. And apart from that, the Atkins authors fail to recognize that many of their food recommendations are toxic, so they are not in a position to offer a transitional diet plan where you remove the toxic foods first, heal, and then lower the carbs even further.

I would certainly like to evaluate Practical Paleo when it comes out next week. One reason I am bringing this up is that we always seem to have new people coming along that want to get started without plowing through weeks or months of reading. If you simply want to embark on a healthy paleo diet, I don't think that should be necessary. You need to know more before starting a ketogenic diet, but I really think some transition time is necessary before doing that anyway. Any valid paleo diet plan is likely to be a major improvement and a good starting point.

 

[MK Scarlett]

Or maybe we should write one :D

We could but I don't know how practical that would be, especially considering all of the individual variation that we have encountered. We started out with a couple of paleo books, Life Without Bread and Primal Body, Primal Mind, along with a low-carb "how-to" book, The New Atkins for a New You, and the technical book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Reading (also Atkins-oriented). Some of us also incorporated another paleo book, Deep Nutrition. The paleo books are basically OK, but the only how-to one is LWB, and it is an early one that doesn't include a lot of information that newer ones do.

The New Atkins book is a decent how-to guide, but look at what it includes in its food recommendations: soy, dairy, toxic salad dressings (made with vegetable oil), toxic vegetable oils themselves, toxic low-cal sweeteners, inflammatory seasonings, legumes, low carb grain products, booze, and more -- basically "everything in moderation." While its instructions and troubleshooting guides are fairly good (apart from the "dive-in" very low carb guidance), we could never endorse its food recommendations and it was always necessary to put it together with a paleo book like PBPM for it to be useful.

I just think we need one or more how-to book recommendations that are fundamentally paleo and also provide clear guidance and safety information. People need to read the other books like LWB and PBPM and The Vegetarian Myth for the information they contain, but it shouldn't be necessary to absorb all that information first before starting a paleo diet, especially when starting with a moderate (not very-low-carb) version and transitioning more gradually toward a ketogenic diet.

I am saying this from experience. I started out with the LWB diet, which is a moderate paleo diet, not ketogenic, and I saw my most important results of the past year immediately! My blood sugar stabilized within a few days, and I was able to confirm that my weight gain had stopped within a week or so afterward (which is to say my appetite "fixed" itself). That is what a "mere" paleo diet can do. Later on I transitioned to a ketogenic diet, and while it seems to be leading where I want to go it has not been a pleasant journey. This is not surprising considering my medical history, but it also doesn't seem to be all that uncommon among members of this forum.

We might be able to identify one book as a recommended starting point, and then others that address specific individual issues. My interest in Sweet Potato Power, for example, is because my body seems to want to be on a higher-carb ketogenic diet. My sense is that this might make a good "second" book, but that there might be a better "first" recommendation. What I would NOT recommend any longer is the "New Atkins" book, because of its bad food recommendations and its relative emphasis on starting out on a ketogenic diet, which can be problematic and even dangerous for some individuals, and will not necessarily lead to long-term weight loss.

After a year of experimenting, I am not sure that the New Atkins theory of weight loss is even valid -- that a "carbohydrate level of losing" (CLL) for a ketogenic diet can be found that promotes weight loss. It might be true for a significant number of individuals, but there are too many stories from the paleo community of it not working, including my own. And apart from that, the Atkins authors fail to recognize that many of their food recommendations are toxic, so they are not in a position to offer a transitional diet plan where you remove the toxic foods first, heal, and then lower the carbs even further.

I would certainly like to evaluate Practical Paleo when it comes out next week. One reason I am bringing this up is that we always seem to have new people coming along that want to get started without plowing through weeks or months of reading. If you simply want to embark on a healthy paleo diet, I don't think that should be necessary. You need to know more before starting a ketogenic diet, but I really think some transition time is necessary before doing that anyway. Any valid paleo diet plan is likely to be a major improvement and a good starting point.

I guess this (in bold) could be different for each people. I read ketosis state comes at different moment of the paleo diet for different people, which is logical, we all have our anteriority of food without forget our parents who also gave us something specifically by genetic. Without forget, our mind pleasures with food and how deal with all these.

I understand Megan how complicated it could be to write a book as this one, and maybe it is not possible at this time... We also could consider it should be easier in a close future... or not. I also guess this will never have end, we all need to make adjustments along our life and new scientists reports come often assert or counter what preceded. It is true, read the entire thread is pretty hard, but, at this point, and without be able to share as many of you do about these reports/news coming from medicine scientists, I truly am grateful for these gifts... :)

Thank you by the way for sharing your experiences and researchs.

 

[mcb]

...I understand Megan how complicated it could be to write a book as this one, and maybe it is not possible at this time... We also could consider it should be easier in a close future... or not. I also guess this will never have end, we all need to make adjustments along our life and new scientists reports come often assert or counter what preceded...

It's quite possible that a fully adequate book is already out there, and I know of a number of candidates but I haven't read them for reasons explained earlier. Producing one here, if it were even feasible, could amount to "reinventing the wheel."

The larger paleo community differs from the scientific community in that it is made up of a lot of individuals trying to improve their health, that are more interested in success than in scientific rigor. The medical/nutritional scientific community, in its legitimate quest for rigor, often designs experiments around isolated nutrients or systems that don't necessarily provide results that are directly useful to us. It also performs "observational studies" that only suggest topics for further research, without actually establishing what is going on. When the mass media get hold of all these results and spin them according to the PTB's agendas, then we have an extremely confusing mess that encourages people to go back to sleep and stay that way.

I tend to draw my information more from the paleo community, with its authors, bloggers, podcasters, and clinicians. It is not nearly as confusing and contradictory as the piecemeal scientific evidence, and it serves to filter, evaluate, and apply the scientific information in a way that I could never do as an individual. I think that the evidence from clinical practice is especially important (Allan & Lutz, Gedgaudas, Shanahan, Kresser, Kruse, Davis, and even Atkins, among others) as it represents real-world experience. In this topic we have depended on information coming from that community all along.

While our ultimate goals here differ from those of the paleo community, I think we can continue to benefit from what it produces while concentrating on doing the Work that we do. We've done this all along -- I would just like to find some better diet plan books to recommend -- that can be taken pretty much at face value -- if that is possible.

 

[Foxx]

Just a note on eggs.

Before taking glutamine and lactoferrin (which I primarily take for gut healing) I could eat eggs with no problems (or so I thought). But after about 2 months of not having eggs, and reintroducing them (fried) I felt a stomach ache. No other symptoms though, but just some pain in the stomach. So it seems to me atleast that my gut is healing as it is better able to alert me. However, I don't seem to have the same kind of problem with a hard-boiled egg.

Thanks for the heads up, Oxajil! I might have to test them out again.

 

[Search]

My wife just noticed that my eyes have some changes in colour. I have amber colour of eyes and now I can see some blue (a little bit green, I think ) lines in iris both in the left and the right eyes. The same with my wife, she have brown eyes with yellowish (maybe more amber) lines. I'm wrtting it here because I think it is realated to the diet change. What do you think about what can it be?
Also maybe it is not right section where to post this.

 

[dugdeep]

Or maybe we should write one :D

We could but I don't know how practical that would be, especially considering all of the individual variation that we have encountered.

I think that's the point. We could go on the hunt trying to track down a book that has all the individual nuances that we've discovered by combining what we know from multiple books (and I'd include ones you haven't mentioned here like the Ultra Simple Diet, for instance, considering an elimination diet should really precede lowering carbs), always being unsatisfied because none of the authors have "the whole banana", or we could collect the relevant material and put it into a coherent package ourselves.

I've already started doing this, sort of, because I need to make handouts that are easily understandable for clients who I put onto this diet. It's not nearly in the detail it would need to be for a book, and it's also a bit disorganized, but it's a framework that could be built on.

And as an aside, FWIW, I wouldn't call LWB a "paleo" book. It's low carb but includes many evil foods, including bread ironically, similar to the New Atkins material. It even measures carb consumption in "bread units"

 

[mcb]

Just a note on eggs.

Before taking glutamine and lactoferrin (which I primarily take for gut healing) I could eat eggs with no problems (or so I thought). But after about 2 months of not having eggs, and reintroducing them (fried) I felt a stomach ache. No other symptoms though, but just some pain in the stomach. So it seems to me atleast that my gut is healing as it is better able to alert me. However, I don't seem to have the same kind of problem with a hard-boiled egg. But for now I'm just gonna keep the eggs away, and maybe have a hard-boiled egg if I really feel a need for it, and continue to heal my gut. I seem to be doing well with onions, garlic and samphire, I also don't seem to have any problems with spices. But mostly I use black pepper and salt anyway. Fwiw.

Oh dear. I am really hoping that doesn't happen to me. I gave up eggs for testing purposes with a lot of reluctance, and within a week I had a return of muscle and joint aches, as well as mild headaches, for some reason that I don't understand. I do NOT want to give up the nutrients in eggs!

Another thing I have just phased out, though, is L-glutamine. I have been taking it for a long time and probably don't need it any longer. But apparently there are concerns that it might be bad for some people. I encountered this in this podcast:

_http://chriskresser.com/the-afternoon-sugar-crash-green-smoothies-and-liver-detoxification

Steve Wright: ...I think I’ve heard from other people in our natural health world that if you’re having, like, a really bad sugar craving and you’re kinda searching your cabinet for something to do, that you can take, like, 10 grams of l-glutamine and it will help you subside the craving. And I’ve tried it, and I’ve seen a little success, and I was just curious if you had ever heard of that or if you ever recommend that.

Chris Kresser: Yeah, I’ve heard of it. L-glutamine I have mixed feelings about. Certainly it has some therapeutic effects and it can be beneficial, but for some people it seems to really trigger kind of a state of agitation or anxiety, and there’s some controversy about whether glutamine can end up as glutamate, which is the major excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain, and I just see that some patients have a bad reaction to it, so I would be a little bit cautious with it. But another option along the same lines is coconut oil. A lot of people, if they’re feeling that kind of sugar craving and they have, like, a teaspoon or a tablespoon or whatever of coconut oil just straight in the mouth, that will take care of it because coconut oil does not require bile acids for digestion because it’s primarily medium-chain triglyceride, so it gets absorbed very quickly and easily, and it’s a very accessible form of energy, and that’s usually what sugar cravings are about.

So you might possibly want to test for glutamine sensitivity. I did that myself when I started taking it, but if I had had the above information then I might have done it more carefully. Now I wonder if eggs could have been preventing problems with glutamine, although that would be a long shot.

I had a mild but persistent carb craving a few days ago, something that has been common for some reason since I stopped eating eggs several weeks ago, and in frustration I made myself a concoction of all-organic cocoa powder, coconut milk, and coconut oil, with a few drops of stevia for sweetener. It contained 7 grams of carbs, but it was delicious and it worked! No more carb cravings since. I never noticed a blood sugar rise (I'm sure there was some) and there was no subsequent crash. But I don't plan to repeat it too often.

 

[MK Scarlett]

My wife just noticed that my eyes have some changes in colour. I have amber colour of eyes and now I can see some blue (a little bit green, I think ) lines in iris both in the left and the right eyes. The same with my wife, she have brown eyes with yellowish (maybe more amber) lines. I'm wrtting it here because I think it is realated to the diet change. What do you think about what can it be?
Also maybe it is not right section where to post this.

It could be something to answer your question, but I do not am really aware about this, except:

[quote author=ophtazone.no-ip.com]The initial color of the iris can change in time and the modifications translate mostly a fouling of the body by resulting toxin, for example:

Medicines
Heavy metals
Chemical substances stemming from the food, from the inspired air, the cosmetics, the dyes of hair …
And also of the very metabolism (the badly degraded food, the excesses of fats or animal proteins also leave their tracks!)[/quote]

The source is French, but maybe from these you could follow the track and find something in English...
_http://ophtazone.no-ip.com/Anatomie/iris.htm
However, in the links proposed on this Website, there is this one, in English:
_http://www.ophthalmic.hyperguides.com/

 

[mcb]

Or maybe we should write one :D

We could but I don't know how practical that would be, especially considering all of the individual variation that we have encountered.

I think that's the point. We could go on the hunt trying to track down a book that has all the individual nuances that we've discovered by combining what we know from multiple books (and I'd include ones you haven't mentioned here like the Ultra Simple Diet, for instance, considering an elimination diet should really precede lowering carbs), always being unsatisfied because none of the authors have "the whole banana", or we could collect the relevant material and put it into a coherent package ourselves.

I am asking if anyone knows of suitable books. I don't expect any one book to deal with all individual nuances; that would not be realistic. There should be fewer initial nuances, though, by starting at higher carb levels while removing the toxics. USD wasn't low carb or paleo, and I think one can do better today using a different paleo-oriented elimination diet.

I fully expect the transition to ketogenic diet to require quite a bit of background study, and there may not be an adequate book for doing that since ketogenic diets seem to be less common in the paleo community. The New Atkins book, unfortunately, is the best I have seen so far. I will keep my eyes open for others, and spend some time (when I can find it) reviewing what else is currently available.

I've already started doing this, sort of, because I need to make handouts that are easily understandable for clients who I put onto this diet. It's not nearly in the detail it would need to be for a book, and it's also a bit disorganized, but it's a framework that could be built on.

Go for it, if you have the time. But I notice that most clinicians that have the practical experience coming in from their patients do not end up writing books, even though they have (of necessity) assembled their own materials. There is probably a practical reason for that.

And as an aside, FWIW, I wouldn't call LWB a "paleo" book. It's low carb but includes many evil foods, including bread ironically, similar to the New Atkins material. It even measures carb consumption in "bread units"

You're right; it's been too long since I read it, and I have never seen it used as a reference within the paleo community, even though "life without bread" is certainly a paleo idea. When I started my paleo diet I "paleoized" what was in the book, just as I later did with New Atkins. I think the main problem with LWB, though, is that the information is old. The authors only understood part of the issues with anti-nutrients in grains. That is much better understood now by those who care within the paleo community.