"Life Without Bread"

[Gaby]

I have been very concerned about this, but I am in a situation where it is risky to do something AND risky to do nothing. I have thought about the risk of another embolism but I also have "gut" problems that, up until now, have not responded to anything, and general "low energy" corresponding to an increase in gut problems (following medical treatments) over the last 4 years. (I haven't eaten the SAD for 15 years now, but I have done vegan & low-fat, and I am 60.)

You've been doing a great job! If you want to be on the safe side, you can take natural blood thinners like vitamin E if you came off from your prescription ones.

Also, I think it is safer if it was a venous thrombosis instead of an arterial one, since it is more manageable. But I think you had made a fair transition into this diet and I hope your body heals with the appropriate nutrition.

 

[Gertrudes]

Would that be considered approaching ketoacidosis? I should be at about 8mmol/L right now, although I'm not diabetic.

I read a few days back something about it, alas I can't remember where. But ketoacidosis can only be happening to diabetics (diabetics Type I and also some of Type II, according to Dr. Bernstein, who almost lost all insulin producing cells (beta-cells)). It happens due to no insulin is available anymore that normally puts the sugar into cells. The body starts in a really bad ketoacidosis to "eat" it's own organs, dehydrates the body/brain due to the kidneys are trying to get rid of the ketones and it is combined with a very high blood-sugar (from ≥350 mg/dl). So actually I wouldn't be too worried when you are still producing insulin, nonetheless keeping up the guard is still recommended.

Thanks Gawan! Everything I found on the net so far also concerned diabetes. In any case, I'll keep an eye on it.

 

[Keit]

There is really no need on having 0 carbs. Notice how 20-25 grams is where you start with and the lowest you have to go. You don't seem to have serious issues with insulin resistance either. Have some 25 grams from veggies :) Make sure you're having enough fat and are taking your salts, potassium, magnesium. If you have bad cramps, remember there is also L-carnitine which will take the fat into the muscle so it can be used as an energy source.

Thanks, Psyche, for the reply and for bringing some sense into my no-sense attitude of leaping without looking :) Having more veggies as a variety will definitely make me happy. And I will look into L-carnitine.

 

[mamadrama]

Here is the relevant information from Life Without Bread:

Blood Clots

Animal fat that contains abundant saturated fatty acids has certain effects on the body's clotting system. This seems to be connected, on the one hand, with the heparin requirements (a protein that inhibits clotting of the blood) and, on the other, the formation of the clotting enzymes. The occurrence of thrombosis in occasional instances of a too-rapid changeover to a low-carbohydrate diet might be due to the state of starvation in which the body finds itself—expecting carbohydrates, for which it is prepared, it instead receives fat and protein, for which it is not immediately equipped, or not ready to handle in high quantity.

Thrombosis often occurs in stressful situations. For example, there is a tendency for thrombosis to occur following surgical procedures, childbirth, and severe physical exertion. Likewise, the changeover to the genetically correct diet of high fat and protein can be a stressful situation to the body. And the bigger the change, the greater the stress.

Those who are reducing their carbohydrate intake from, say, 40 percent down to 72 grams per day (10 to 20 percent of total calories) will experience fewer problems than those who have been consuming 80 percent of their daily calories as carbohydrates. The same holds true for age and existing health conditions. Thus, the people who eat the most carbohydrate often are the ones who have the most health problems, so they would naturally experience the most difficult transition, just as a person addicted to the highest dose of a drug will have the most difficulty in the early stages of reducing the drug.

Well, I've had dvt (deep vein thrombosis) in my leg from a C-section and now appear to have stasis dermatitis in the same leg after suffering from a brown recluse spider bite. I guess this makes me somewhat at risk if dropping to 20g of carbs a day? I've been keeping it under 50g for the past two weeks and have just started trying to keep it under 20g, but maybe I should stay under 50g or maybe even 72g for a couple of months before reducing to 20g?

 

[mcb]

You've been doing a great job! If you want to be on the safe side, you can take natural blood thinners like vitamin E if you came off from your prescription ones.

Also, I think it is safer if it was a venous thrombosis instead of an arterial one, since it is more manageable. But I think you had made a fair transition into this diet and I hope your body heals with the appropriate nutrition.

Thank you -- that is encouraging! I wouldn't even have dropped my carbs so low except that I needed to try "Life Without Veggies" for a while. Even then, I have one or two chard leaves (depending on size) and a SMALL slice of onion with breakfast along with a few herbs and garlic (in addition to eggs and meat), and a few olives or artichoke hearts with meat in the afternoon.

I added it up and it comes to about 15-20 grams/day. I don't want to increase it again until my gut has finished whatever it is going through, or I might restart the fermentation. I would rather be a little uncomfortable--it is great not having all that gas. I am not experiencing any major symptoms right now, and my clothes fit better. The question coming up will be not "carb tolerance" so much as whether the fermentation returns when I eventually add more veggies.

 

[cassandra]

My problem is that not much of the diet appeals to kids. They adore carbs, and it seems impossible for me to keep them gluten-, dairy-, sugar-, lectin-free and low carb, no TV, no rubbishy music, no cellphones, etc, etc-, ad infinitum. Big, huge frown.
The ones saying it was selfish to have kids have a good point.

 

[Jefferson]

My problem is that not much of the diet appeals to kids. They adore carbs, and it seems impossible for me to keep them gluten-, dairy-, sugar-, lectin-free and low carb, no TV, no rubbishy music, no cellphones, etc, etc-, ad infinitum. Big, huge frown.
The ones saying it was selfish to have kids have a good point.

I hear you! I have a few kids :D , but when the ones that live with their mother visit me, I try really hard to feed them gluten-free and dairy-free food and up their meat and fat, turn off their cell phones particularly when they go to bed (good thing I don't have a TV but they want to watch the Internet so I have installed an automatic timer that logs them out after a set time).

Nevertheless at first I just fed them what they wanted and what they are used to at their mom's place, but more and more I've realized I will try and introduce a different way of eating to them (they gotta have their mashed potatoes BUT I have learned that they need to eat their meat first before they can dig in their mashed spuds with butter :) ).

But keeping on topic of this thread, for those kids who are getting one diet from one parent and another from another - I think it is a good idea to try set an example, or try to get them thinking about the deliciousness and healthiness of the low carb, high saturated fat and protein way of eating, still giving them some suitable veggies (slathered in butter and ghee). One might mistakenly think it is external consideration not to change kids eating habits too much from what they get from their other parent's place, but with the knowledge we have now, I think it is a good idea to start moving them towards high fat/protein, low carb eating.

I found a clear difference in behavior when kids get say bacon and eggs for breakfast and good meaty-with-fat meals than when they get carbs. The kids are not scrounging in cupboards an hour after they eat! I used to have to continually tell the little kids not to dig in fridge and look for snacks between meals when they for example had porridge or wheetabix with yogurt in morning, or bread and cheese for lunch or whatever. Now when they get meat and fat at each meal, they play for hours without asking or sneaking in the cupboards for food (well if they know there happens to be cookies in the house, they'll find them and eat them no matter if craving carbs or not, so best not to have cookies or sweets around at all - kind of dull at dad's eh? ).

Jefferson

 

[dugdeep]

Everyone is different, so you may end up with more residual ketones in your urine than others do. I don't think this is a big deal. If you start to get up over 8mmol/L, then it might be time for concern (although I think this is unlikely unless you're type 1 diabetic).

Would that be considered approaching ketoacidosis? I should be at about 8mmol/L right now, although I'm not diabetic.

I read a few days back something about it, alas I can't remember where. But ketoacidosis can only be happening to diabetics (diabetics Type I and also some of Type II, according to Dr. Bernstein, who almost lost all insulin producing cells (beta-cells)). It happens due to no insulin is available anymore that normally puts the sugar into cells. The body starts in a really bad ketoacidosis to "eat" it's own organs, dehydrates the body/brain due to the kidneys are trying to get rid of the ketones and it is combined with a very high blood-sugar (from ≥350 mg/dl). So actually I wouldn't be too worried when you are still producing insulin, nonetheless keeping up the guard is still recommended.

Sorry Gertrudes, I don't know where that 8mmol/L number came from . I guess I should avoid writing posts on my way out the door . I think I meant to put 18. Anyway, I don't think you need to worry unless your ketone levels are getting very high, like over 16mmol/L (which is as high as my ketostix go).

Ketoacidosis doesn't occur until well over 20mmol/L and Gawan is right - it involves having both high blood sugar and high ketones at once, something that can only happen in diabetics. Non-diabetics have an automatic feedback loop that looks at ketone levels in the blood and when they get too high, releases insulin which stops fat from being released from the fat cells to be turned into ketones, effectively ending ketone production. It also makes you urinate them out. Type 1 diabetics, not being able to produce insulin, don't have this feedback loop. So really, there's nothing to fear.

Incidentally, I'm getting all this from a book called "The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet). It's a very scientific look at the ketogenic diet, going right into the biochemistry details; includes over 600 references. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to go into the kind of detail this author goes into, but for nutrition nerds (like me :D) it's a great read. I've just been reading while waiting for "Art and Science..." to arrive.

 

[Ollie]

Frying is lower carbs as well as soaking up the fat. I'm on my third day at 20g carbs, still low on energy and with aching limbs, but no cravings.

Remember that another trick to avoid cramps is the L-carnitine for the first few weeks while your body has DNA changes that will allow it to derive all the L-carnitine from protein. L-carnitine will transport the fats into your mitochondria as an energy source in your muscles. People in general notice a difference with it and it is an excellent supplement for cardio support.

I hope you get keto-adapted very soon.

Aches, but no cramps. I'm still taking all the supplements that I was before starting this diet, including L-carnitine which is taken first thing in the morning. The previous week I was averaging 35g carbs and before that probably 60g for many weeks/months (had aches and low energy, etc during that time too).

Ketone test on waking today showed a progression - midway between trace and small. Taking it at this time, my thoughts are that it eliminates water and exercise issues - is this right? Still to get potassium, using plenty of salt though.

Got a three hour low-level ramble today, so I'll see how it goes. :)

 

[Jefferson]

I dropped carbs mid April (with gluten, dairy, sugar, caffeine dropped already last year) and have still not gone into ketosis according to the test which showing levels of more than 4mmol/l but not as high any higher than 6-8mmol/l according to the color.

Jefferson, I don't know whether I understood you correctly, but do you mean to say that your test is showing 4mmol/L? If so, that, according to my bottle, is already a state of ketosis.

Hi Gertrudes,
Yes my test is showing somewhere around 4-6mmol/l, and I too thought that would be ketosis as I have strictly eaten protein and lots of good lard, duck fat, ghee, and coconut oil, with limited carbs for 3 months.

However Redfox mentioned when I first posted my test results of 4-6mmol/l:

I assume this means I am without doubt burning ketones?

My understanding is this means you are producing ketones, but have yet to start fully utilising them (your cells are in transition to burning ketones).
Once you go fully into ketosis, your score on the urine test will drop to almost nothing as all the ketones are being used up before they can be excreted.

So I pose the question, what is the mmol/l level that shows one is in ketosis? Does a low mmol/l level show one is in ketosis or a high mmol/l level?

I think I have to read the books a bit more carefully. Or forget the urine test altogether

Jefferson

Hi Jefferson. I think it's more than likely you are in ketosis. Unfortunately, the urine test can only show that we're making ketones, it can't determine whether or not we're burning them. But if you're not eating much in the way of carbs (and it sounds like you're not) and you're producing ketones, which the sticks say you are, you're probably burning them too. Otherwise you would likely be extremely fatigued; maybe unconscious!

Everyone is different, so you may end up with more residual ketones in your urine than others do. I don't think this is a big deal. If you start to get up over 8mmol/L, then it might be time for concern (although I think this is unlikely unless you're type 1 diabetic).

Thanks Dugdeep and Gertrudes for your comments.

Fortunately I have no health issues like diabetes or anything (dealing with PTSD from the consequences of mind programming of an extreme religion is a different thing :) )

I have not suffered any problems with the changeover, so I was just wondering if something was wrong when I did the urine tests.
Last year already I had dropped gluten, caffeine, dairy and processed sugar, and I had already since the new year been using saturated fat such as lard and reducing carbs gradually - therefore when I started using Allan&Lutz's LWB guidelines in April of this year, the changeover only produced positive effects. Cravings disappeared, and not only food cravings but also other cravings such as sexual cravings dissipated (well chocolate cravings continued a bit, but I've learned to handle them , energy has been good, and mind's been clear too.

Psyche's advice to go slow is solid: I slowly reduced carbs inadvertently for about 4 months maybe around the 100-120g mark, before being introduced to LWB, so I am empirical evidence that doing it slow may help people avoid some of the adverse effects of the diet changeover (I'm just over forty years old so you'd think there would be some negative effects but so far: nothing).

Jefferson

 

[Gaby]

Well, I've had dvt (deep vein thrombosis) in my leg from a C-section and now appear to have stasis dermatitis in the same leg after suffering from a brown recluse spider bite. I guess this makes me somewhat at risk if dropping to 20g of carbs a day? I've been keeping it under 50g for the past two weeks and have just started trying to keep it under 20g, but maybe I should stay under 50g or maybe even 72g for a couple of months before reducing to 20g?

Actually, I think you're ready since you had made dietary changes gradually (removing gluten, processed foods...). You'll probably see improvements in your leg with this diet when you get to the point of tissue repair from ketosis. The concern is mainly for possible strokes (ischemic), limb ischemia (from severe peripheral arterial disease) or heart attack events in people at high risk and starting such a low carb diet all of a sudden. So the recommendations of the authors tries to address this high risk population.

You can take natural blood thinners to be on the safe side. Omega 3s, magnesium, vitamin E, garlic supplements, CoQ10 are all blood thinners and some of them are great supplements for the ketoadaptation.

 

[Gaby]

Incidentally, I'm getting all this from a book called "The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet). It's a very scientific look at the ketogenic diet, going right into the biochemistry details; includes over 600 references. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to go into the kind of detail this author goes into, but for nutrition nerds (like me :D) it's a great read. I've just been reading while waiting for "Art and Science..." to arrive.

600 references I'm getting it! ;)

 

[Thor]

I think I hit ketosis last night. Just as I went to bed I felt highly energized. It was late and I had to get up early so I decided to do just POTS in bed which normally puts me to sleep straight away. However, after finishing POTS I didn't feel tired at all. After a while I did manage to fall asleep, only to wake up at 4 am. After about an hour of twisting and turning I finally accepted that I was not going to get any more sleep and got up. I am still feeling energize although the body is tired after just 4 hours of sleep so I will take a nap to catch up.

Yesterday I received the ketostix and this morning showed 4 mmol/L so I think I'm entering fat burning mode. Yesterday the digestive enzymes arrived and I took them for the first time. Three hours after I took the first enzymes with a meal, the energizing happened. I can't say for sure that the enzymes are what pushed me over the edge but it seems likely. I have been on the low carb diet below 25 carbs for two weeks and below 20 for one week so it could also just be the time it took the body to make the switch.

Normally I don't have cravings, but just today I smelled something sweet and pie like and that definitely stirred up a longing for something with lots of sugar, butter and wheat. Not a strong craving but something was trying to pull me in that direction, nonetheless.

I think I'll stay at the 20 g mark for another two weeks as recommended and then start upping the carbs by 5 per week until I find my level.

 

[Gaby]

You all remember to drink enough water to avoid dehydration. We can loose much water retention when we release it through the urine when insulin is not triggered like crazy on a low carb diet. In the article of tips for keptoadaptation by Michael Eades he goes into some detail about his experiences of not drinking enough water:

Tips & tricks for starting (or restarting) low-carb Pt II

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/230561-Tips-tricks-for-starting-or-restarting-low-carb-Pt-II

Here is another reminder as well:

Dehydration really can disrupt brain function

http://www.drbriffa.com/2011/07/08/dehydration-really-can-disrupt-brain-function/

I often advise individuals to avoid dehydration at least in part because I’ve noticed how it can provoke lethargy, particularly mental lethargy. There is some evidence which supports this observation, in the form of studies in which individuals have been made dehydrated through exercise, sometimes in heat. Such studies have generally found brain function is impaired in such situations. The problem with these studies, though, is that we can’t be sure if it’s the dehydration, or the heat, or the exercise or a combination of these things that is responsible for a dropping off in mental function.

I was therefore interested to read the summary of a recently published study [1] in which men were subjected, on separate occasions, to each of three test conditions:

1. 40 minutes of walking on a treadmill with quite a steep incline (5 per cent) at a speed of 5-6 km/hr in a temperature of about 28 degrees centigrade (about 82 Fahrenheit). The men were also treated with the drug frusemide – a diuretic that speeds dehydration.

2. Same conditions as above, but instead of being given frusemide, the men were treated with a placebo.

3. Same conditions as above, while the hydration status of the men was maintained (in other words, they were not allowed to become dehydrated).

Basically, conditions 1 and 2 were designed to induce dehydration of two severities (the one with frusemide being more severe), and condition 3 was designed to act as a control (where individuals expended about the same amount of energy in the same heat but did not suffer dehydration). The study subjects were subjected to tests of mental function, fatigue and mood.

Dehydration was found to reduce vigilance and working memory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_memory (the ability to actively hold information in the mind needed to do complex tasks such as reasoning, comprehension and learning). Fatigue during exercise was worse during dehydration. Measure of tension and anxiety were greater too.

What this study shows is that dehydration does indeed have the capacity to affect brain function and mood, and therefore it pays to stay topped up with water. Our requirements for water vary according to a variety of factors including weather, temperature, how active we are, how much we sweat and how much water we get via what we eat. A good guide, in terms of water intake, is to drink enough to keep urine pale yellow in colour throughout the course of the day.

References:

1. Ganio MS, et al. Mild dehydration impairs cognitive performance and mood of men. British Journal of Nutrition. 7 June 2011 [epub]

 

[mamadrama]

Actually, I think you're ready since you had made dietary changes gradually (removing gluten, processed foods...).

Great! Thanks. :)

You'll probably see improvements in your leg with this diet when you get to the point of tissue repair from ketosis.[...]

That would be wonderful. My homeopath has prescribed hydrofluoric acid nosodes (internally - a blood thinner) and castor oil wraps (externally) which are both helping, too. I think the reduction in carbs has started helping as well. I'm also going to try some rolfing to loosen up the tissue.

You can take natural blood thinners to be on the safe side. Omega 3s, magnesium, vitamin E, garlic supplements, CoQ10 are all blood thinners and some of them are great supplements for the ketoadaptation.

Thanks, Psyche! :) I am taking everything but the garlic which I will add.