Lying, Lies and Liars

[Torpid]

Re: How to defend a lie.

Maybe I really have lost it then, I didn't realize my previous post was so bad, I suppose I owe you some gratitude for the warning then, thanks haha.

Ahhh, when I started writing this I was trying to all-but-literally give people a weapon to wield against people trying to exploit or use us to certain ends, or if not that just a warning...In no way did I accomplish anything to this extent other than perhaps allowing others a glimpse into the deceptive reality I know all to well by now (my own).

I always thought I would come back and 'edit' the posts to make them more effective tools, this of course being when I used to see 'good' and 'evil' as if they actually existed...a belief I upheld until the 'good' turned against me and hurt me as thoroughly and viciously as the 'evil' I had once found myself subordinated too. (Edit: Is a spider 'evil' when he ensnares and then continues to kill his prey? We might think so, but the spider surely doesn't. Ill elaborate on this concept further later, however much wisdom can be gained out of analyzing this relationship in comparison to human relationships.)

For this reason I now find it important to return here and offer my current ideas and seek advice, also to clarify what I meant by the power of truth.

The problem with my posts before is that the time at which any of it may actually begin to be useful is when you are already aware of a conflict of interests between yourself and someone else, and in many occasions by the time you find yourself aware and fighting it is most likely too late, well, never too late but simply you'll find yourself at a disadvantage early on that others will try and maintain... making things all the more difficult. Plus, in my opinion, the posts suck, but if in some form they're useful to others then I'm in no position to tear them down I suppose.

The first of my new theories involves preconceived notions, previously I had been an advocate of an open minded approach, in my own life as well as in what I wrote here. The problem with this being it tends to undermine our most precious defense in a world of lies, common sense. In fact I've realized the lack of a clear opinion which motivates our actions and thoughts from within is the equivalent to not locking your front door...simply because we seem to have an affinity for wanting to accept people into our lives, we want to believe in people, this submissive approach unsurprisingly results in submitting our hearts unwillingly, which disrupts the mind, and leading to our eventually being controlled as we allow this to repeat. For this reason I now feel that having a strong, developed opinion on the people that interact with us is a much more mature and proactive approach making it more difficult for us to be manipulated. In developing our opinions we must take great care to analyze a massive array of puzzle pieces that form the nature of a person, their actions, their words, the motives behind their actions, The opinions of others concerning this person, their situation in life as well as their aspirations, people are complex and it is in this complexity a deceiver will thrive. Someone seeking to control you may seem normal until the point in which enough power has been gained over you to take steps that will leave you trying to respond to drastic consequences, consequences that have been thought out and implemented quite intentionally in such a way to avoid 'significant retaliation', like a predator seeking to incapacitate you to the fullest extent your environment will allow. This can come in the form of secrets, trust, forms of power and anything that can be used against you, luckily it is often easy to foresee and prepare for these breaches in our reality, another reason I've become convinced this is sadly a proactive battle not one we can hope to win responding to attacks.

(Ill refrain from continuing now as I feel as if this subject requires many pages of discussion and I'm curious to see how you all feel about the foundation to this thought)

 

[PepperFritz]

Re: How to defend a lie.

I now feel that having a strong, developed opinion on the people that interact with us is a much more mature and proactive approach making it more difficult for us to be manipulated. In developing our opinions we must take great care to analyze a massive array of puzzle pieces that form the nature of a person, their actions, their words, the motives behind their actions, The opinions of others concerning this person, their situation in life as well as their aspirations....

It has been the experience of those of us here involved in "the Work", that it is almost impossible to develop the ability to observe others with objectivity if one does not also work on observing oneself with the same degree of objectivity. Gaining knowledge about the nature and methods of pathological, predatory people is a big step towards being able to recognize and effectively deal with them when they cross our paths. However, so often our own emotional issues and mechanical programs blur our vision. The C's tell us that Knowledge Protects, but they go on to qualify that by emphasizing that it is only Knowledge that is Applied that truly Protects. Such Knowledge cannot be applied selectively; we must see the truth about ourselves through it, as well as the truth about others.

 

[Laura]

Does Lying Damage the Brain?

Among the many interesting things said by psychologist, Andrew Lobaczewski, one that interested me the most was his remark about "the first criterion for ponerogenesis" being the atrophy of critical faculties.

One phenomenon all ponerogenic groups and associations have in common is the fact that their members lose (or have already lost) the capacity to perceive pathological individuals as such, interpreting their behavior in a fascinated, heroic, or melodramatic ways. The opinions, ideas, and judgments of people carrying various psychological deficits are endowed with an importance at least equal to that of outstanding individuals among normal people.

The atrophy of natural critical faculties with respect to pathological individuals becomes an opening to their activities, and, at the same time, a criterion for recognizing the association in concern as ponerogenic. Let us call this the first criterion of ponerogenesis.
[...]

Thus, whenever we observe some group member being treated with no critical distance, although he betrays one of the psychological anomalies familiar to us, and his opinions being treated as at least equal to those of normal people, although they are based on a characteristically different view of human matters, we must derive the conclusion that this human group is affected by a ponerogenic process and if measures are not taken the process shall continue to its logical conclusion. We shall treat this in accordance with the above described first criterion of ponerology, which retains its validity regardless of the qualitative and quantitative features of such a union: the atrophy of natural critical faculties with respect to pathological individuals becomes an opening to their activities, and, at the same time, a criterion for recognizing the association in concern as ponerogenic. [...]

Any human group affected by the process described herein is characterized by its increasing regression from natural common sense and the ability to perceive psychological reality. Someone considering this in terms of traditional categories might consider it an instance of “turning into half-wits” or the development of intellectual deficiencies and moral failings. A ponerological analysis of this process, however, indicates that pressure is being applied to the more normal part of the association by pathological factors present in certain individuals who have been allowed to participate in the group because the lack of good psychological knowledge has not madated their exclusion.

One of the reasons this particular point is so interesting to me is because we (myself, members of QFG/QFS) have observed this "turning into half-wits" over and over again. It's the damnedest thing! The instant an individual makes a decision to believe a lie, it's as though their ability to use accurate reasoning about anything else - not just a contentious item - grinds to a halt.

Most often, this sort of dynamic occurs in very emotional situations where the individual is heavily invested in NOT seeing the truth about a person or a situation for any number of reasons. They may be involved in a close relationship with the person, they may be brought up to "believe" a certain way and, in spite of evidence that their faith is misplaced, refuse to accept the facts.

Which, of course, leads to the consideration of Faith itself. Soren Kierkegaard suggested that religion is, of its essence, not persuasion of the truth of a doctrine, but commitment to a position which is inherently absurd. Human beings attain their identity by believing something that deeply offends their minds (or others). To exist, he says, we must believe, and to really believe means to believe something that is dreadfully hard to believe. You can't just believe something plausible because that is easy... So, for some people, it may be that believing lies is some kind of proof that they are in control of their choices, they aren't being pushed around or dominated by irritating things like facts and evidence. (Sounds really rather childish, doesn't it?)

So, anyway, today I happened to read this:

Truth Serum
Focuses on the use of functional magnetic resonance imaging in lie detection in forensic psychology. Impact of lying on the brain's activity.

By: Kaja Perina

Lying generates unique brain activity that can be measured by functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRIs), brain scans that could someday morph into a forensic tool far more potent than the flawed polygraph test.

Researchers gave 18 subjects a playing card, then offered them money to lie to a computer about the card while undergoing an fMRI. When subjects lied, the scans revealed increased activity in several regions of the brain, including the anterior cingulate gyrus, which is implicated in conflict monitoring, attention and response inhibition. Head researcher Daniel Langleben, M.D., a professor of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania, says this confirms that the brain's "default" response is to tell the truth. "No area of the brain works harder to tell the truth than to lie" says Langleben.

Forensic experts are hopeful because fMRIs measure complex mental processes, while polygraph tests pick up skin and blood pressure changes that can be misleading. Langleben says the next step to ready brain scans for forensic use is to monitor spontaneous acts of deception. Langleben modeled his study on classical deception research, in which subjects are instructed to lie. The study was presented at the Society for Neuroscience annual meeting.

Psychology Today Magazine, Jan/Feb 2002
Last Reviewed 5 May 2009
Article ID: 2004

I thought I'd take a deeper look at this "anterior cingulate gyrus". I found this:

Anterior Cingulate Gyrus Dysfunction and Selective Attention Deficits in Schizophrenia: [15O]H2O PET Study During Single-Trial Stroop Task Performance
Cameron S. Carter, M.D., Mark Mintun, M.D., Thomas Nichols, B.S., and Jonathan D. Cohen, M.D., Ph.D.

OBJECTIVE: Attentional deficits are a prominent aspect of cognitive dysfunction in schizophrenia. The anterior cingulate gyrus is proposed to be an important component of frontal attentional control systems. Structural and functional abnormalities have been reported in this region in schizophrenia, but their relationship to attentional deficits is unknown. The authors investigated the function of the anterior cingulate gyrus and the related neural systems that are associated with selective attention in patients with schizophrenia.

METHOD: While subjects performed multiple blocks of a single-trial Stroop task, [15O]H2O positron emission tomography scans were obtained. Fourteen patients with schizophrenia were compared with 15 normal subjects matched for age, gender, and parental education.

RESULTS: The patients with schizophrenia responded at the same rate but made more errors in color naming during the color-incongruent condition. Consistent with the authors' hypothesis, patients with schizophrenia showed significantly less anterior cingulate gyrus activation while naming the color of color-incongruent stimuli.

CONCLUSIONS: Patients with schizophrenia fail to activate the anterior cingulate gyrus during selective attention performance. This finding adds to the understanding of the functional significance of the structural and metabolic abnormalities in schizophrenia that have been previously reported in this region of the brain. (Am J Psychiatry 1997; 154:1670–1675)

The wikipedia article on the topic is interesting: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex

[...] The ACC is connected with the prefrontal cortex and parietal cortex as well as the motor system and the frontal eye fields[2] making it a central station for processing top-down and bottom-up stimuli and assigning appropriate control to other areas in the brain. The ACC seems to be especially involved when effort is needed to carry out a task such as in early learning and problem solving.[3] Many studies attribute functions such as error detection, anticipation of tasks, motivation, and modulation of emotional responses to the ACC.

ACC response in Stroop task experiments (designed to measure adherence to sequential decision-making paths) remains relatively elevated in typical human subjects [5], as the alternative - spontaneity - is sacrificed. Rehearsing a task that originally produced spontaneous, novel responses to the point of producing rigid, stereotypic responses results in a diminished ACC response.

Whereas most funded research is concentrated on reduced task focus - often diagnosed subjectively as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) - recent research using monkeys has revealed that heightened ACC activity (generally associated with reduced dopamine utilization) reduces capacity to learn how to use visual cues for anticipating rewards. [...]

Evidence for the role of the ACC as having an error detection function comes from consistent observations of error related negativity (ERN) uniquely generated within the ACC upon error occurrences. [...]

Stimulation of the anterior cingulate (also known as Area 25) with low dosages of electric current in neurosurgical studies has been shown to improve depression in a portion of test subjects.

Studying the effects of damage to the ACC provides insights into the type of functions it serves in the intact brain. Behavior that is associated with lesions in the ACC includes: inability to detect errors, severe difficulty with resolving stimulus conflict .... emotional instability, inattention, and akinetic mutism.[1][2] There is evidence that damage to ACC is present in patients with schizophrenia, where studies have shown patients have difficulty in dealing with conflicting spatial locations in a Stroop-like task and having abnormal ERNs.[11][2] Participants with ADHD were found to have reduced activation in the dorsal area of the ACC when performing the Stroop task.[21] Together these findings corroborate results from imaging and electrical studies about the variety of functions attributed to the ACC.

There is evidence that this area may have a role in Obsessive Compulsive Disorder due to the fact that what appears to be an unnaturally low level of glutamate activity in this region has been observed in patients with the disorder,[22] in strange contrast to many other brain regions which are thought to have excessive glutamate activity in OCD.

Helen S. Mayberg and two collaborators described how they cured 4 of 6 depressed people -- individuals virtually catatonic with depression despite years of talk therapy, drugs, even shock therapy -- with pacemakerlike electrodes in area 25. A decade earlier Mayberg had identified area 25 as a key conduit of neural traffic between the "thinking" frontal cortex and the phylogenetically older central limbic region that gives rise to emotion. She subsequently found that area 25 appeared overactive in these depressed people — "like a gate left open," as she puts it — allowing negative emotions to overwhelm thinking and mood. Inserting the electrodes closed this gate and rapidly alleviated the depression of two-thirds of the trial's patients [23].

It has also been suggested to have possible links with Social Anxiety, along with the amygdala part of the brain, but is still in the early stages of research. [...]

The ACC area in the brain is associated with many functions that require conscious experience by the viewer. Higher ACC activation levels were found for more emotionally aware female participants when shown short ‘emotional’ video clips.[24] Better emotional awareness is associated with improved recognition of emotional cues or targets which is reflected by ACC activation.

The idea of awareness being associated with the ACC has some evidence with it, in that it seems to be the case that when subject’s responses are not congruent with actual responses, a larger ERN is produced.[12]

One study found an ERN even when subjects were not aware of their error.[12] Awareness may not be necessary to elicit an ERN, but it could influence the effect of the amplitude of the feedback ERN. Relating back to the reward based learning theory, awareness could modulate expectancy violations. Increased awareness could result in decreased violations of expectancies and decreased awareness could achieve the opposite effect. Further research is needed to completely understand the effects of awareness on ACC activation.

There were some other interesting possible clues, but right now, I just wonder if lying, holding onto a lie, even if one is only lying to the self, causes some kind of damage to this area of the brain? Or, if not actual damage, just sets up a pattern of activity that affects other areas of the brain in a detrimental way? One suspects that even when people believe a lie that some part of their brain knows the truth and they know, at some level, that they are lying or believing lies (which amounts to lying to the self).

I also wonder what kinds of results would show up doing these kinds of scans on psychopaths? Do psychopaths know they are lying in all cases? And if that is the case, does it have the same physiological effect on them as it does on an individual with a conscience?

Just a whole lot of thoughts and questions...

 

[Erna]

Re: Does Lying Damage the Brain?

One phenomenon all ponerogenic groups and associations have in common is the fact that their members lose (or have already lost) the capacity to perceive pathological individuals as such, interpreting their behavior in a fascinated, heroic, or melodramatic ways.

This observation by Lobaczewski shocked me in it’s accuracy. I grew up with a boy whom I admired very much, and whenever things happened in their house that briefly sat uncomfortably with me, I tucked it far away and it didn’t exist any longer. I admired his father very much, and always wondered why my father couldn’t be like his father. Very involved at school and in the community, resulting in both his boys becoming head boys and excelling in life. In retrospect, the qualities he cultivated in his boys had a pathological foundation. There was big consternation in their house one afternoon when his mother removed a thorn from his brother’s foot and his brother cried. Needless to say, I don’t think he made that mistake again.

And eventually when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission proceedings got underway in ‘94, I followed it with much interest, and couldn’t believe my own eyes when his dad’s face appeared on screen. I was speechless. Turned out he was 2nd in command at Vlakplaas, just below Eugene de Kock. At the start of his interrogation, he was exactly how I remembered him – “take your punishment like a man” “we did what anyone would have done in our situation” “thanks to us you could sleep at night” “we followed orders” – and as sentencing became more of a possibility, he became more pathetic, lying himself into a corner, implicating others, shifting blame, crying on the witness stand.

That whole episode made me go back in time and dig out all the things that happened in their house that I tucked away, that I didn’t want part of the picture. Those things that turned me and everybody else into “half-wits”. He was everyones’ hero when we were kids; teachers, children, parents, church community. He was also ‘miraculously’ not sentenced, in the face of overwhelming evidence against him…

 

[Psalehesost]

Re: Does Lying Damage the Brain?

Among the many interesting things said by psychologist, Andrew Lobaczewski, one that interested me the most was his remark about "the first criterion for ponerogenesis" being the atrophy of critical faculties.

[...]

One of the reasons this particular point is so interesting to me is because we (myself, members of QFG/QFS) have observed this "turning into half-wits" over and over again. It's the damnedest thing! The instant an individual makes a decision to believe a lie, it's as though their ability to use accurate reasoning about anything else - not just a contentious item - grinds to a halt.

Most often, this sort of dynamic occurs in very emotional situations where the individual is heavily invested in NOT seeing the truth about a person or a situation for any number of reasons. They may be involved in a close relationship with the person, they may be brought up to "believe" a certain way and, in spite of evidence that their faith is misplaced, refuse to accept the facts.

[...]

There were some other interesting possible clues, but right now, I just wonder if lying, holding onto a lie, even if one is only lying to the self, causes some kind of damage to this area of the brain? Or, if not actual damage, just sets up a pattern of activity that affects other areas of the brain in a detrimental way? One suspects that even when people believe a lie that some part of their brain knows the truth and they know, at some level, that they are lying or believing lies (which amounts to lying to the self).

I also wonder what kinds of results would show up doing these kinds of scans on psychopaths? Do psychopaths know they are lying in all cases? And if that is the case, does it have the same physiological effect on them as it does on an individual with a conscience?

Just a whole lot of thoughts and questions...

I was thinking about what I'd read of psychopaths and how it seems that lies and truth have little psychological difference to them and how they don't understand what others mean by facts after discussing it with someone else, and came to think of how we psychologically distinguish truth and falsehood. It struck me that we - figuratively but also literally, though perhaps in the sense of an "intellectual emotion" - have a "feel" for what we think is truthful as opposed to false.

That is, truth/falsehood has an intellectual-emotional "weight" to it. Thinking of this a bit more, it made sense that a person whose psyche develops in the presence of such a "feel" would come to naturally distinguish between them, while a psyche developing without such a "feel" would be indifferent to - not knowing - the distinction, since to such a mind it would "feel" the same.


Then, on the issue of "turning into half-wits", I now came to think of dissociation, and how in a sense the mind ruled by a fractured, artificial personality of dissociative processes is a "half-wit" - or less (I wouldn't know - I only know that in comparison to my present state it used to be even worse in terms of depth of thinking, ability to focus, overall "understanding", working memory and so on) - compared to the unified, consciously developed mind.

On the issue of dissociation and buffers, I came to think of what Gurdjieff said regarding the forming of buffers to compartmentalize awareness and shut off conscience so as to not feel contradictions.

Which brings me to choosing to believe lies - and knowing at first that they are lies. Given the "feel" for truth and falsehood, said "feel" would need to be suppressed in order to remain unperturbed and convinced as a believer in the lie. Perhaps, then, what happens when people knowingly force their system to accept lies is that they create dissociation from this "feel" for truth/falsehood. "Most often, this sort of dynamic occurs in very emotional situations ..." - which could perhaps give the "force" needed to form a buffer - or otherwise crystallize negatively - on the spot.

And if someone is dissociated from their "feel" for truth/falsehood, they would likely develop a general blindness towards this differentiation as a result.


OSIT - the above is just speculation.

 

[Erna]

Re: Does Lying Damage the Brain?

[quote author=Csayeursost]
On the issue of dissociation and buffers, I came to think of what Gurdjieff said regarding the forming of buffers to compartmentalize awareness and shut off conscience so as to not feel contradictions.
[/quote]

Cognitive dissonance (dictionary.com):

• anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or otherwise incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like, as when one likes a person but disapproves strongly of one of his or her habits.

[quote author=Csayeursost]
Which brings me to choosing to believe lies - and knowing at first that they are lies. Given the "feel" for truth and falsehood, said "feel" would need to be suppressed in order to remain unperturbed and convinced as a believer in the lie. Perhaps, then, what happens when people knowingly force their system to accept lies is that they create dissociation from this "feel" for truth/falsehood. "Most often, this sort of dynamic occurs in very emotional situations ..."
[/quote]

A belief in mainstream religion might be another example of what you described above, which is certainly very emotional for many. And when psychopaths play the religion card the anxiety and inner conflict in people must be quite intense, causing the brain to quickly rearrange the pieces to one's liking, rationalizing things with the most obscure arguments, to experience relief and make the conflict disappear.

 

[anart]

Re: Does Lying Damage the Brain?

There were some other interesting possible clues, but right now, I just wonder if lying, holding onto a lie, even if one is only lying to the self, causes some kind of damage to this area of the brain?

Very interesting, and certainly evidenced in real time enough to not question the existence of the phenomena. 

It brings to mind the idea that 'the soul cannot abide a lie' - that it 'withdraws' at the smallest lie to the self or others. 

The following is likely out in left field, but - just in case it makes some sort of sense...

If one considers frequency resonance and the hypothesis that as the conscious mind increasingly perceives and aligns to objective truth, so does it align with, or access, the higher self (or soul), then, perhaps, this is reflected in physiological brain function.  Perhaps - a belief in lies, no matter how brief, disturbs this resonance so that the 'higher self' withdraws - or at least the access of the conscious mind to that higher self is restricted - resulting in changes in brain function.  Very interesting if our brains are our interface with the Universe and all that entails.

The manifestations of this change in brain function - the physiological representation of the 'withdrawal' of higher perception, or an alignment with higher perception, could involve any number of behavioral or emotional manifestations - none of them 'positive'. It would certainly map to my own personal experience.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: Does Lying Damage the Brain?

Psychopaths show reduced activity in the anterior cingulate cortex when viewing affect-laden images. There haven't been any tests yet on lying and psychopaths relating to this area of the brain, but the hypothesis is that it's related to their pathological lying (in which case, it would probably show heightened activity during lying).

As for lying, some studies I read show that psychopaths aren't really any better at passing the concealed information "lie-detector" test than others. That is, when presented with a series of images, one relating to the crime, they show heightened autonomic activity to that particular image.

I think psychopaths can probably tell the truth from a lie perfectly well in most cases (i.e. anything dealing with strictly material reality). However, the truth doesn't have any emotional significance to them. For example, say you're counting grains of sand to put into an hourglass. The instructions say you should include 10000 if you want it to keep a certain amount of time. Let's say you put 10001. Who cares? I think maybe that's what psychopaths think about issues of importance. "But you LIED about it?" "Who cares?" or "So I included a few extra references on my resume. If I'd have actually worked there they would have recommended me! Who cares?"

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Does Lying Damage the Brain?

There were some other interesting possible clues, but right now, I just wonder if lying, holding onto a lie, even if one is only lying to the self, causes some kind of damage to this area of the brain?

Very interesting, and certainly evidenced in real time enough to not question the existence of the phenomena.

It brings to mind the idea that 'the soul cannot abide a lie' - that it 'withdraws' at the smallest lie to the self or others.

The following is likely out in left field, but - just in case it makes some sort of sense...

If one considers frequency resonance and the hypothesis that as the conscious mind increasingly perceives and aligns to objective truth, so does it align with, or access, the higher self (or soul), then, perhaps, this is reflected in physiological brain function. Perhaps - a belief in lies, no matter how brief, disturbs this resonance so that the 'higher self' withdraws - or at least the access of the conscious mind to that higher self is restricted - resulting in changes in brain function. Very interesting if our brains are our interface with the Universe and all that entails.

The manifestations of this change in brain function - the physiological representation of the 'withdrawal' of higher perception, or an alignment with higher perception, could involve any number of behavioral or emotional manifestations - none of them 'positive'. It would certainly map to my own personal experience.

I'm also wondering, and please correct me if I'm not understanding this, what consequences there would be for lying re strategic enclosure? Is it the actual belief in a lie that is the hypothesized cause of brain damage here, or is it simply knowing that the words being said are false?

I've not met a psychopath that 'believed' in anything, he/she simply wanted something and manipulated to get whatever it was. I don't think, based on this experience, that belief is a part of their make up.

 

[Beau]

Re: Does Lying Damage the Brain?

I'm also wondering, and please correct me if I'm not understanding this, what consequences there would be for lying re strategic enclosure? Is it the actual belief in a lie that is the hypothesized cause of brain damage here, or is it simply knowing that the words being said are false?

That's a very good question. I would have to say, in that particular context, it would not have the same physiological affect. When we lie to ourselves, their is a part that actually believes the lie, that thinks it is not a lie at all, that it is in fact real and true. I think that is where we get into the problems that Laura mentioned and anart brought up as well.

On the other hand, when one creates an aim and part of that is creating a strategic enclosure that you know is not really you, it is not who you really are but rather is a "role" that you play in order to further your aim, you are not creating a disturbance with the higher self. I think one reason behind this is that it is a conscious act. It is not something done in a mechanical way. I think that is where the difference lies, but I may be totally off in that theory.

 

[Laura]

Re: Does Lying Damage the Brain?

I think that, perhaps, the lies that may cause damage are when the conscious mind is in conflict with the subconscious or unconscious mind. If one part of the mind knows the truth, and the other part "fights" against this to survive or whatever, that must be detrimental.

Lying for the sake of strategic enclosure is fully conscious and there is an aim.

 

[Torpid]

Re: How to defend a lie.

I now feel that having a strong, developed opinion on the people that interact with us is a much more mature and proactive approach making it more difficult for us to be manipulated. In developing our opinions we must take great care to analyze a massive array of puzzle pieces that form the nature of a person, their actions, their words, the motives behind their actions, The opinions of others concerning this person, their situation in life as well as their aspirations....

It has been the experience of those of us here involved in "the Work", that it is almost impossible to develop the ability to observe others with objectivity if one does not also work on observing oneself with the same degree of objectivity. Gaining knowledge about the nature and methods of pathological, predatory people is a big step towards being able to recognize and effectively deal with them when they cross our paths. However, so often our own emotional issues and mechanical programs blur our vision. The C's tell us that Knowledge Protects, but they go on to qualify that by emphasizing that it is only Knowledge that is Applied that truly Protects. Such Knowledge cannot be applied selectively; we must see the truth about ourselves through it, as well as the truth about others.

Hi Joe King,

Just so you are aware, what you've written here is extremely unclear (basically 'word salad'); almost as if you are talking to yourself.  If you are going to 'expand' on this later tonight, please do so in a more concise and clear manner.  Please consider the time and energy it takes your reader to read what you've written - if you write for yourself and no one else, it is not much more than noise.

im posting that at the start as a warning, please consider that i've lost it now in allot of ways because of what some very specific people have done to me, BEFORE you start reading. If this is going to bother you, stop now. It bothers me too but I need help, my problem is trust, I dont trust anyone...but ive been trusting the wrong people way too much, and I feel as if this site wasn't one of those wrong people so to speak...so my "noise" is an extension of trust to know that some people will go through what im suffering and be able to impart some wisdom that might give me some more direction...or thats only part of it all but im just human and this is living testament to my mistakes



And here it all begins...


Im an idiot...I really am. I went to the hospital twice with for anxiety breakdowns in my life part of why I never came back here....but I just found out even my best friend  now is just evil (my 2 last best friends were too, except the one that got away from me for being 'stupid' which I never got to see him on that intimate of a mental level so who knows what he is) ... I.... attract (is that the word im looking for, or maybe I just seek them out myself subconciously?) these people with my love, or at least thats how I see it now since I dont know what the -flick- to think anymore. I didn't realize that people that were like me on the outside had a consistency for being evil deep down on the inside...but what ive realized is ive simply been compltley emotionally blind to these people around me and I dont know how much of it has been their doing or my own but my depression, but my need for a shoulder to cry on so to speak really -flicked- me up and made me reach out to now whats been my 3rd mental predator...2 on the internet..and this has been my first experience in real life...kinda a scary world to tread in  when your life is actually in danger...saw that one coming I guess

Anyways [removed by moderator] really made me see through allot of my own emotional blindness in my own life...and Ive entirely changed who I trust on such a intimate level of the soul...and what ive realized is that these people thrive of this trust (a subconscious love that you apply to everyone) ...and it took me a massive dose of truth serum to even see past my own emotional confusion

I wonder if I should even post this or if hes going to see it and come try and kill me haha...

he just doesnt understand hes not the first

doesnt understand ive been ready to die for many years now

doesnt understand ill kill him too to protect what I love

is that why he threatened me on such a deep level...is he just a scared human being too, not trusting anyone?

I dont know if these people that have been assaulting me since ive been 12 on a love / trust / deep level like this are pathocrats

But I do know things all of them had in common, I do see them all the same in some ways

what I dont understand is all of them had capacity for love....one of them even let me go after I reached them on a level of love that was 100% accepting of who he was as a human being...do these people just get so contorted inside and become so alone that they've learned to trust no one? is that who ill become if I stop being who ive always been out of fear of this all? If I become scared of them, do I become them? (No...I know thats not true....but its human to think...)

and then theres still people like...well I guess I cant say who since now ive put my real name down on this board....but people really close to me, family, that have direct control over my life...and I know this person loves me cause everything im told to do is for my own good but...its like im a a child spawn of a mental disorder...because ive realized this person always and only operates like this...a very cruel and cold self-gain perspective on the world...the things this person tells me to do...its like the heart doesnt even exist...and everything that comprises of my human soul rebels against this with passion...I dont need to do what im "supposed" to do...what ive needed to do was what came from the heart, because even though it doesnt fit with rationality or even -flickin- reality thats all that keeps me from being a pathocrat and I know this now...theres parts of me that have looked out on the world with such love and dreams of fixing everything but I know thats exactly the worst kind...I believe im helping people but really I just want control dont I

I think im a child of two worlds...but I dont know... Ive always come to this site because ive always thought something along the lines of coming to this site with my mentality having befriended people in such different psychosis (probably bad vocab, talking about their mentality too, who they are on animal levels)
and having been such a victim that maybe you guys could learn from my pain...and maybe in return I could see my own pain answered

I guess thats were you need to be at to really start delving into this world, I hope even though it goes against my discipline I can re discipline myself to research here and finally find my own answers

just...have backed myself in such a dark corner again...I realized I was the rabbit hole...these people never wanted to find the answers to life like I did they just wanted to exploit everything around them...and if they really knew how much I understand well then id become useless and un-manipulatable ...and with he information that pertains to what makes them hide their evil that ive gained once I become useless I become a target to kill. Im literally worried about 3 diffrent people on the verge of killing me now ....heh ...and the worst part is this is exactly who ive wanted to be, who I knew I was, I thought my intelligence could expose and protect the world from these people...maybe I still can...still will....but -flick- me I didnt even know things went this deep...just -flick- me this is farther down the rabbit hole then ive ever been...and I thought I could open doors not being afraid since I didnt care for my physical life...but now its my mental life thats been in the balance and I never even knew they got to me until things became in-escapable...

this site saved my life...I wouldn't be here if I didnt know to guard myself on that level...there was a turning point where I realized the truth in my own friends based on what ive gleamed off my little time here....I do have to thank you all for being here if nothing else

/sigh...

Vi veri veniversum...vivus vici....it only gets as bad as the truth right... 

the internet age is going to bring to our attention mentalities that were always in the dark...ive realized being a gamer is what got me into all of this from the start...sucked into a world of lost identity that is going to make allot of people very genuinely confused

torn between forgetting about this and taking what ive learned now that I dont have these people affecting me to such an extent that I wasnt controlling my own emotional life...my very soul i've learned...and just getting away with the love of my life

but where can I go...theyre threatening our world now arent they

and I of all people...being such a victim...running away...what kind of hero am I...this isnt who I am...but now im so lost I dont understand if im just one of them too

im at the end of know-where... I really just want to come back now  :(

(hah u know is funny, I almost want to go back on posting this at all now because I think, why would anyone care...maybe im right....maybe thats just the way the world spins...and if it is maybe I can see how so many people have fallen to evil...I suppose it takes reaching beyond the self...I guess it just takes a greater wisdom and compassion to love beyond your own pain...maybe im starting to understand how to truley be a good person...I just never thought I was the one who is evil...alright im guna have to be careful now.... I really am going crazy confronted with all of this)

and where do these people on the outside that have been communicating with me so strongly fit into this....who is god....I thought I was...but we are arent we

and if they arent god who are they

who have I been fighting out in space so intensely...they've been my first mental war...first I was always threatened but its like theres more then one others if connected with the arguru and others are so evil....

I always felt my hair stand on end thinking about them....my soul sets on fire when I realize there more to it then these petty human mentalities...that we need to ascend as a race and ive always felt instrumental to that...felt im in touch with somthing supernatural that DRIVES me to this site to the point where I cant control it...and my emotional confusion is what kept me from them...do they exist or is the existence of something supernatural just another part of the human brain...child of god... god of child

Do I create ...or do I burn it all down in rage...ive always been on the side of love and creation...but my hurt inside made my purest love evil like I cant describe...and its all based on mistakes and choices I made as a child trying to just get away from pain...pain has driven me to evil hasnt it...im glad I see that now...maybe I can start to cleanse my soul of what ive done to myself living in this world now

 

[anart]

Re: How to defend a lie.

Hi Joe,

I'm sorry to hear that you are going through such a difficult time.  Unfortunately, this forum isn't really equipped to deal with such issues. Since I am quite concerned about you at this point, my advice to you is to seek professional mental health counseling as soon as possible - like first thing Monday.  I also strongly suggest to stop using illicit drugs of any kind - they are not helping you or your perception - this I can guarantee.  I have removed your reference to your drug of choice from your post due to the fact that it is against forum guidelines to post about illicit drug use.

Also, try to consider the idea that if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you always got.  And - lay off the drugs to give your mind a chance to recover.  The diet and health section might also be of some use.

 

[Torpid]

Re: How to defend a lie.

thank you...

I seem crazy, but its just honesty.

I'm sane now, I see things for what they are and not contorted by a barrier of internal confusion

....illicit drug use, excuse my lack of forethought I should have realized these things are still against the law...that's not something I fear for myself but I should have considered the site and its position in the world, im sorry.

I'm happier then i've ever been, been set free from mental predators, I was thinking that was something I went through that I could keep others from going through.

just wanted to be 100% honest with what ive been going through because lying is what kept me from ever being set free from the chains of depression/pain, and the internet makes it possible to reflect my soul this impersonally, somthing that might help people that might be in similar situations like the one I just managed to pull myself out of... going to the far reaches of my own mind... like a shaman trying to bring back the answers to life

and yea, ill go back to my therapist...I have a really good one too hes a new thinker im sure it'll do allot of good for me

"world of cries, world of I...see the lies and u can fly" - master torpid

PS. I think this post was a trip to myself over a long period of time where my subconscious wanted to gradually bring to attention that I had been lying to myself in allot of ways...basically i've probably just been talking to myself (who isn't ) ...but im still hoping others can learn from my blatant mistakes

truth remains the most powerful thing this universe will ever know...and this thread is a testament to that

I caught myself up in a world of lies..however innocently ...and paid the price with allot of personal pain and confusion

EDIT: Hmm , my own insanity exposed...powerful way to bring it out of my subconcious I suppose

Not sure why this had to be seen here...maybe I should take it down?

I dont believe in it anymore thats certain...things just got a little hand

I took your advice though, about the illicit drug use, personal reasons about how it mars on me as a person

feel free to edit and or take it all or some of it down...

but I did find some truth in my insanity if anything ... I dont think im alone in being so emotionally wrapped up?

but I do understand the fine line between being civilized and wild in the mind now

suppose now im able to face my soul and make some different choices in some sense

sorry to bother, at any rate

PS: was going over this

Also, try to consider the idea that if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you always got.

in my head spaced out and I saw a shooting star...ive never seen one like that in my life and it just cut right through to me to wish for what I wanted most in life...and it just jarred everything back into perspecive :) all the insanity just falls away when you realize whats most important doesnt it...saw what I had become and realized that I needed to change, I think I have a choice right?

thanks again

 

[monksgirl]

going back to the original posts on this thread, the point was made that only a minority of liars will use a 'tell' or physical clue that they are lying, which reminded me of an amusing anecdote about a person my husband worked with. The fellow was a pathological liar, and would lie about anything at the drop of a hat; during staff meetings he would always cover his mouth with his hand when telling a lie. Just about everyone in the room knew about this behavior, except of course, for the guy doing it.