Lying, Lies and Liars

[anart]

How to defend a lie.

Know this though, Just because you can lie doesn't mean you should, the truth the

greatest weapon.

Do you really think this disclaimer makes your post less repellant?

Apologies if I've misunderstood, and this post was supposed to be a really bad joke, but it certainly seems as if you've revealed yourself as someone who not only lives by the lie, but revels in it. No idea why you would have thought that this post would be well received on this forum. However, it is useful as an unveiling.

 

[ark]

How to defend a lie.

Being a rather exceptional liar I thought i'd compose a little instruction on the
fine points of a lie. Regardless if you don't need to lie, knowing how to lie is the
perfect way to be a better lie detector.

Now, that you told us how you lie, would please tell us how you find the truth? That will more relevant for this forum.

 

[Torpid]

How to defend a lie.

Being a rather exceptional liar I thought i'd compose a little instruction on the
fine points of a lie. Regardless if you don't need to lie, knowing how to lie is the
perfect way to be a better lie detector.

Now, that you told us how you lie, would please tell us how you find the truth? That will more relevant for this forum.

Why certainly. You see, I meant for this to be an eye-opener as to the misconception of the fact that a lie can be detected by simply checking to see if a person does not look you in the eyes, or seems fidgety or nervous. Although those can work, yes, I would rather assume those people are actually just hiding the truth, not lying. this information is useless if you didn't already know it honestly, but I wanted to expose some of the techniques a liar will use to gain false trust with you. I was actually going to write up the counter for this, so that once you know what your identifying, I can suggest how better to discern a liar from the crowd.

Do you really think this disclaimer makes your post less repellant?

Apologies if I've misunderstood, and this post was supposed to be a really bad joke, but it certainly seems as if you've revealed yourself as someone who not only lives by the lie, but revels in it. No idea why you would have thought that this post would be well received on this forum. However, it is useful as an unveiling.

I never assumed it would be well received and I apologize if I have offended you, though I don't see how. I can see how this would be considered with a closed mind. Excuse me however for repulsing you, it was not my intention. Education, rather, was.


For many people these suggestions are practiced with ease, and without thought, if you know that, you are slightly less gullible, and that much closer to the truth. Perhaps now I should post my breakdown on how to use this knowledge, I had just assumed it would be understood.

 

[Torpid]

How to defend a lie.

Now rather, how to use this information to detect a liar (As well as a truth teller)

:).


As someone attempting to detect a lie, as implied before you have to understand

sub-consciously a good liar will put you into one of three categories.

-A friend , Someone pulling for you to succeed

-An Enemy , Minimal trust, does not want to believe you.

-Detached , The middle ground, seeker of truth, "open inquirer".

Now, you want to veer away from an enemy or friend, and stay with inquirer. Simply

because it is the hardest person to lie to, someone who sits back and notices the

details of everything you say. A liar becomes uncomfortable fast, where as a truth

teller will be unaffected. Liars in general find what I call "comfort in

conversation."

So your goal is to do one of two things, either make the party too comfortable, or

make the party uncomfortable. An uncomfortable liar will be panicking in his mind to

find substantial details that can be clearly proven false, where as a liar who has

become too comfortable will offer up too many details, and stumble offering you a

couple that can be proven false and brought back to the liar in an uncomfortable

scenario, as what I earlier called "crushing evidence." There are very few if any

liars that can recover from several details proven false, unless of course they are

telling the truth.

Now as the party starts to tell you information when you ask questions, you need to

divide it up into three categories.

-Known

-Needs to be proven ( and later is )

-Could not be proven

Now once you have, you know a couple things. First off, very few truth tellers will

mix truth will unknowns and will not regulate information as to give you the

slighest bit of information without ever giving you a lead to the truth. Secondly,

you can take the could not be provens to the party to be elaborated upon, putting

further pressure and opportunity for mistake upon a liar, where as a truth teller

will elaborate to memories extent, now, becareful of the memories extent trick.

Think about a situation that happens to you under their circumstances, are they

remembering too much? too little? attribute that to your overall analasys of the

person.

A conventional liar will feel the need to have the answers right away, where as a

truth teller needs time to recall. Watch for intentional pauses, it tells of

planning and intellect. If a truth teller needs to pause its simply because he/she

does not know, or the information is unreliable anyhow generally.

Comfort, Generally, people should be naturally uncomfortable with your inquisition,

so where as you conventionally believe nervousness to be a sign of lying, put that

in reverse and think of it more as hiding a truth, or telling the truth. Either way

nervousness is a sign of goodwill.

STAY DETACHED , Don't jump to believe a person is coming clean, they may just be

feeding you another lie. Don't jump to any conclusions for matters that a party

is reinforcing with their personality, it could just be an act. stay concentrated on

the information, if you come across a question a subject has trouble answering, play

on that. There is no defining thing that tells you if a person is lying or not. A

good liar shows many unnatural signs of emotion to sway your personal instincts, most

truth tellers lock up and show very little emotion. Ignore questions from the party

if you can.

Notice details, some people do have the tendency to say to much, but that clearly

shows as a talker.A liar does not act like a talker, just offers up too much

information when asked for a specific thing. And ask for details, don't just let the

party offer them up, pull them out, if a party is offering them up then the ball is

on his/her field, try to keep it on yours.

Try to rush details or alibi's, play on discomfort its leads to exposing the truth.

A major problem with setting defined rules on liars and truth tellers is the fact

that many truth tellers flag as liars in many ways, so , one can only be exposed to

the different tactics a liar uses, and use it to increase upon ones knowledge base and

be better prepared when dealing with a liar. The best tip when dealing with a party

is to look for unnatural behavior, such as too believable, too concerned, too

helpful, too oblivious, and etc.

Follow your instincts, just don't allow a person to sway your instincts,

instinctually we can all detect a liar, but liars play to that, so, be prepared for

the fact that a liar will play to your misconceptions.

If anyone has any personal experience or skill with detecting the un-conventional

liar suggestions would be greatly appreciated :)

 

[domi]

How to defend a lie.

What do you think about what is written about lying at the following link? -> http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=894&lsel=

 

[Torpid]

How to defend a lie.

What do you think about what is written about lying at the following link? -> http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=894&lsel=

Interesting, classification of a lie, touches upon the usefulness and the problems with lying and/or telling the truth. I gather we have to ask ourselves who were are lying or telling the truth to, and what is the intent and effects, sometimes the truth is more harmful than the lie, but good intent must be complimented with good effect (for people other than yourself) in the eyes of morality, if you really have good intent that is. Examining intent I do believe is the fastest way to discern truth from lie in information, or at least one step closer to it. The key in understanding lies in being detached from the matters at hand, as I recommended that should be your main objective when trying to detect a liar, or doing anything for the matter, if you detach yourself and ask questions disinformation has little to no effect on you as well as liars intending to play on your emotions.

Lies are a form of power over others. In terms of the STO/STS dynamic, lies are a tool of service to self. Lies are aligned with the principle of entropy simply because the more lies the world contains, the less organized and fragmented it becomes and the more energy is expended in maintaining all this complexity. This ties up energy which otherwise could be expressed creatively. This is true within the individual as well as at the societal scale.

A lie can be seen as an indirect request for truth. In a situation of confrontation where lies are used as instruments, the defense consistent with the STO orientation is confronting the lies and spin with truth. Lies and their promoters can often be recognized by the fact that they tend to shift in response to circumstance and become entangled in their own contradictions while truth remains stable.

Outside of special situations, in a world of lies the truth is the most powerful thing anyone can offer up. Why lie when you can tell the truth? The world, or government is made of of a complexity of lies and therefore any truth teller holds the greatest power, the ability to disprove the lie, and in turn open the eyes of people worldwide, though I'm only saying something most of you already know.

Playing on a liars contradictions is making them uncomfortable, something I was discussing as a tactic for revealing the truth, sometimes not only do you have to identify a liar but you have to disprove them, simply because truth is only useful when known.

As an outside interaction, separating one's inner life from another by lies can be vital.

In between the lines my posts are intended to help with just that.

 

[salleles]

How to defend a lie.

Torpid, you assumed that this 'how to lie guide for dummies' is meant to recognize liars, but you also said:

You shouldn't ever flat out lie, unless the circumstances make it so that any truth entails an unbearable amount of punishment.

Sometimes the truth is more harmful than the lie.

Why lie when you can tell the truth?

Truth is only useful when known.

Playing on a liars contradictions is making them uncomfortable, something I was discussing as a tactic for revealing the truth.

I'm rather confused with your posts so to speak. The truth about liars, although useful, doesn't necessarily leads to truth itself in my opinion.

 

[Torpid]

How to defend a lie.

Torpid, you assumed that this 'how to lie guide for dummies' is meant to recognize liars, but you also said:
~
I'm rather confused with your posts so to speak. The truth about liars, although useful, doesn't necessarily leads to truth itself in my opinion.

Well, I have found, that if one can discern between lies, truth, half-truths, and etc. You are much less likely to accept a lie over the truth. So, in this way it leads you closer to the truth, or rather keeps you steady on your path in the search for truth.

 

[joejoeba]

How to defend a lie.

Torpid, are you a policeman?

I only say this because you seem to be coming from the perspective of someone who often has long discussions with liars!

Have you ever played that game where you sit back to back with someone after having assigned and agreed to two roles, the question master, and the answer master. It is an interesting game because essentially, through a combination of a relaxed 'game' environment and hard questioning no lie can actually be told, because eventually you question through it.

This links to another game me and my sister used to play in the car on long journeys: The why game.
Eventually with one person saying 'why' and the other answering you ALLWAYS come back to one thing, one final answer where no where else can be explored...... without coming back to it. Do you know what that is?
Try it and come back to me.

It is the only one big truth I feel we can all relate to.

 

[Torpid]

How to defend a lie.

Torpid, are you a policeman?

I only say this because you seem to be coming from the perspective of someone who often has long discussions with liars!

Have you ever played that game where you sit back to back with someone after having assigned and agreed to two roles, the question master, and the answer master. It is an interesting game because essentially, through a combination of a relaxed 'game' environment and hard questioning no lie can actually be told, because eventually you question through it.

This links to another game me and my sister used to play in the car on long journeys: The why game.
Eventually with one person saying 'why' and the other answering you ALLWAYS come back to one thing, one final answer where no where else can be explored...... without coming back to it. Do you know what that is?
Try it and come back to me.

It is the only one big truth I feel we can all relate to.

No I haven't, well the "why game" when I was younger, but I don't remember ever seriously trying to answer after the point of frustration, haha. Will try it, and no I'm not a police man, I don't have professional real world tactics, only what I've used in my interactions with all sorts of people, which is why I invited non-conventional verbal tactic ideas :).

 

[doviine]

How to defend a lie.

I found this helpful as it confirms some very important things for me.

 

[Torpid]

How to defend a lie.

I know this thread is dead, but ive been debating with myself as to whether I should revisit it, since my poorly concieved writing on lying was stickied, that is. I'll actually take the time to revise it so it can actually be read for accuracy and not simply for a "dont-let-yourself-be-controlled-so-simply" purpose. I wasn't going to visit it simply beacuse it wasnt written to do anything more than what it did for the above poster, and its secondary purpose along with a couple other of my few posts was simply to litmus the vector of the forum, but since it wont be buried ill add a few corrections and warnings if you intend to use this as a tool.

And, I dont think I ever made it clear, the lines about telling truth aren't a disclaimer, truth is the most powerful tool one can have in a pscyopathic world, spreading the seed of truth is the very purpose of this forum, and that seed is the key to any possible avoidance of the events that these signs of the times herald...also, its simply better then lying in general because truth is just a flawless lie.

 

[piranah]

How to defend a lie.

I read with interest this post as i find myself in trying to make out what lies have been fed to me over my years. Not that it truly matters if one is truthful with ones self then any lie told really is a problem for the liar. Sooner or later in his/her life they will have to face up to their lies. Of course there are the big lies which lead to people being killed or wrongly accused. But we live in a mire of lies each day. Do they all add up to harmless. As children we don't realize others can see through our lies. As adults we learn to conceal. We may conceal for many reasons but if we come across others who spot this they may use that knowledge to help create lies of their own for reasons of their own. Most of us don't lie all the time but we omit stuff rather than tell whole truth. Our whole social existence is based on the fact that we are able to trust or not trust people. What we base these judgments on is in part what is told to us by others we trust. I find it hard to spot liars up close but can do from a distance. Eg if I have a close friend I find my self wanting to believe what they say and pushing any warning signals to the back of my mind or at least I used to do. Lately I have been trusting the gut feeling.

 

[PepperFritz]

How to defend a lie.

Its all about the intention of the speaker, rather than what is actually said. I've known psychopaths who were able to skillfully deceive, mislead, and/or create a false perception while making statements that were 100% factual.

Re spotting "liars": I was born with/cursed with a kind of "idiot savant" ability: I always know when someone is intentionally lying. It's not a learned skill, or a consciously practised ability. I don't know HOW I know, I just know. It could be a "clairvoyant" trait, but I think it is more likely that I unconsciously detect the minute and subtle facial-muscle movements that people exhibit when they are being deceptive. I also have the aural equivalent of a "photographic memory" -- i.e., I retain everything I hear (conversations, speeches, lectures, etc.) like a human tape recorder. Again, not a skill, just something I was born with.

You can imagine how well these abilities went down when I was a child, living in a highly dysfunctional family, with a Malignant Narcissist for a mother, and a Psychopath for a step-father. I quickly learned to keep my mouth shut in a world where truth, honesty, and accuracy were liabilities. I discovered from a very young age how much EVERYONE lies and deceives and manipulates reality. I also learned how to lie with ease.

The lies I continue to have a lot of difficulty detecting are the ones I routinely tell myself, and then in turn to others. Those lies have had catastrophic consequences in my life, both for myself and those around me. Since undertaking the Work, I have gotten better at spotting them and understanding the motivation behind them. But exposing my own dishonesty is still a very difficult daily practice for me, there's still a part of me that wants to "fall back" into the comfort of my own self-deceptions, and not see myself for what I am: A devious manipulator ducking and diving from the truth....

 

[piranah]

How to defend a lie.

Its all about the intention of the speaker, rather than what is actually said. I've known psychopaths who were able to skillfully deceive, mislead, and/or create a false perception while making statements that were 100% factual.

Re spotting "liars": I was born with/cursed with a kind of "idiot savant" ability: I always know when someone is intentionally lying. It's not a learned skill, or a consciously practised ability. I don't know HOW I know, I just know. It could be a "clairvoyant" trait, but I think it is more likely that I unconsciously detect the minute and subtle facial-muscle movements that people exhibit when they are being deceptive. I also have the aural equivalent of a "photographic memory" -- i.e., I retain everything I hear (conversations, speeches, lectures, etc.) like a human tape recorder. Again, not a skill, just something I was born with.

You can imagine how well these abilities went down when I was a child, living in a highly dysfunctional family, with a Malignant Narcissist for a mother, and a Psychopath for a step-father. I quickly learned to keep my mouth shut in a world where truth, honesty, and accuracy were liabilities. I discovered from a very young age how much EVERYONE lies and deceives and manipulates reality. I also learned how to lie with ease.

The lies I continue to have a lot of difficulty detecting are the ones I routinely tell myself, and then in turn to others. Those lies have had catastrophic consequences in my life, both for myself and those around me. Since undertaking the Work, I have gotten better at spotting them and understanding the motivation behind them. But exposing my own dishonesty is still a very difficult daily practice for me, there's still a part of me that wants to "fall back" into the comfort of my own self-deceptions, and not see myself for what I am: A devious manipulator ducking and diving from the truth....

Well pepperfritz you have had your skills finely honed under the hands of your mother and father. What ever natural abilities you had I'll bet they were brought on enormously by having to live such a childhood. Having seen others have counseling and myself also, I am starting to realize how these lies we tell originate. We are not born liars but of course with the mental ability to learn most skills. Children who suffer trauma emotional or otherwise learn to distance themselves and 'read the room'. It becomes second nature and unlearning the way we act is hard. I believe as a mother I am responsible for the mental health of my children and that troubles me as I know I have grown up with them really and given them some false behavior models. I told lies as a teenager to hide the unknown and uncertainty of my upbringing. It took me many years to understand. We all tell lies but the problem is some are better than others at hiding it and knowing what they can get away with. I am rubbish. I get nervy and it shows. In learning to be honest with myself I realize too it is better not to lie but to know who you can tell truth to and who you can't. There are narcissists at work in this world who can read the situation and make a innocuous comment which in truth pushes their victim to act in a way they want without the victim even knowing. The beauty is the victim will think the origin of the desire to act came from themselves and not the narcissist. Many of us are living a lie with manipulators like this...our children husbands friends. I think we all have the ability to spot lies but we repress it from an early age we have to if we are to fit in and live the lie. The wierdos are often the ones who stick out who tell the truth as they see it and no one particularly wants to hear. Religions are made up of lies. Parents bring their children up in these beliefs which because they are written in a holy book are unquestionable. I was wondering the other day isn't the idea of a all seeing all knowing God like having a narcissist watching over you. I wonder at those young men who flew the planes into skyscrapers who was the one who lied to them who corrupted their own truth so that they would be blind enough to do such a thing. I do all I can to ensure my belief system is based upon truthfulness to myself. I am interested in learning how to spot a lie .....one day it may save my life.