Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 Crashes in Ukraine

[Voyageur]

And conversely: _http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc3_1415985472&comments=1

HD satellite image of alleged UA fighter attacking MH17

Launch of air-to-air missile can be see on the image.

Obviously this publication of this photo (which according to some sources has been revealed 1 month ago) in Russian official media is connected to G20 events, and judging by that they're spreading it using official media they've decided to use that, what they have been keeping since summer. Naturally expertise is required, but judging by how serious they're it pretty much reveal that the image is authentic.

Your right though, the story has not being carried where you think it should be carried - all so unverifiable i.e. "sources".

 

[Siberia]

The jet plane doesn't look like Su 25 indeed, more like Su 27, imo. On the other hand, who said that it must necessarily be Su 25? Ukie army has Su 27.

The story is most likely a hoax, but the photo???

 

[Possibility of Being]

Found this blog with tweets claiming to debunk the photo: _http://www.mfs-theothernews.com/2014/11/video-russian-channel-1-says-it.html

Summary: logo looks to be in wrong place on plane, jet fighter doesn't have outline of Su-25, trajectory of plane seems wrong. Could use some looking into.

From a very quick search:

Brown Moses is Eliot Higgins. From Wikipedia:
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

Higgins is credited with being among the first report on the widespread use of improvised barrel bombs by the Syrian government ... Other aspects of the Syrian conflict uncovered and documented by Higgins include the use of cluster bombs in 2012, which the Syrian government previously denied using ... Higgins published an estimate of the location where the James Foley execution video was made outside Raqqa, an Islamic State stronghold in north-central Syria, .... Higgins has received significant praise and support from human rights groups, journalists, and non-profit organisations. "Brown Moses is among the best out there when it comes to weapons monitoring in Syria," said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director at Human Rights Watch.[2] ... Amnesty International said that the Brown Moses Blog was vital in proving the Syrian regime was using ballistic missiles, information then used to send a research mission to Syria

HP:
_http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/18/eliot-higgins-syria_n_4269417.html

His work unraveling the mystery of the rocket strikes of Aug. 21 played a key role in bringing much of the world to the conclusion that it was indeed a chemical weapons attack, one unleashed by Assad's forces. That conclusion led to a diplomatic deal under which the Syrian government submitted to international inspections and pledged to destroy its stocks of chemical weapons.

Here:
_http://mashable.com/2014/07/23/citizen-journalists-mh17-spies/
Is a summary of Higgins's analysis of BUK movements (pointing to, although not proving) Russia's involvement and a note how smart he was in confirming "that the regime of Syria's Bashar al-Assad had indeed used chemical weapons in the Damascus suburb of Ghouta"

The other Twitter guy (or a group) chiming in, Liveuamap, is from Kiev and apparently not very friendly toward Russia, based on his Tweets.

Just saying... The whole "MIT guy" story is a bit suspicious everything considered, so who knows, but I wouldn't rely on those 'debunking' sources too much, FWIW.

 

[Voyageur]

The story seems to be picking up steam - here is the latest from the Dailymail.co.uk - _http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835088/Is-moment-MH17-shot-flew-Ukraine-Russian-state-broadcaster-produces-satellite-images-showing-fighter-jet-attack.html

Ivan Adrievskiy, vice president of Russian Engineers Union, said: 'We see a photograph taken from space from a low orbit. Usually such images are taken for the sake of general reconnaissance of the air and the ground.

'The coordinates of the photograph mean we can suppose that the image was taken by an American or British satellite.

'We have studied this picture in detail and did not find any sign proving it to be fake.'

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Can someone math-savvy calculate how high the alleged satellite would have been to take this photograph, or verify that propagandist "Brown Moses's" number (_https://twitter.com/AsdedsffGhjk/status/533316833911513088/photo/1)? Looks like low-earth orbit satellites need to be at least 160 kilometers (99 mi) up.

From Google Maps, it looks like the wingspan of the plane (60.9 m real size) in the picture is approx. 4.2 km projected on the ground.

Added: Might not be worth it. Here are some more pretty convincing debunkings, some from Russians: _https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.5107/

 

[Voyageur]

Can someone math-savvy calculate how high the alleged satellite would have been to take this photograph, or verify that propagandist "Brown Moses's" number (_https://twitter.com/AsdedsffGhjk/status/533316833911513088/photo/1)? Looks like low-earth orbit satellites need to be at least 160 kilometers (99 mi) up.

From Google Maps, it looks like the wingspan of the plane (60.9 m real size) in the picture is approx. 4.2 km projected on the ground.

Added: Might not be worth it. Here are some more pretty convincing debunkings, some from Russians: _https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.5107/

As for the last comment, this site runs the gambit from dissing on Veterans Today for being anti-Israeli to using subsections of a video game overlay to debunk.

I've some experience with non-digital orthoimagery in scales greater than 1:10,000, however not satellite imagery, only from low altitude flights, and not in a time when photo-shop was so ever present. As a look-down image, it seems to convey correct attributes, such as cloud layers and I've not found any compelling examples of satellite images where other planes at altitude were captured for comparisons. It would be helpful if a large mega-pixel image of this satellite image was available for study. Also, a satellite camera shutter speed would need to be very quick to capture a frozen in time image such as a fighter jets speed or a missile fired; and I'm sure they are. The depth perception (depth of field) would also need to be well compensating so as to avoid blurring, which is also likely. The meta-data of the satellite camera shot would verify some aspects and the math calculations certainly could help to verify size and distance. A photo such as this will have shadows; are they all in alignment. Shadows would orientate opposite the Sun which would give a close time of day, which would need to be calculated to see if the time slot makes sense with the event date itself, osit.

In further looking to see who and who is not running the story, most are cautious it seems. Voltaire ran the story _http://www.voltairenet.org/article185923.html while others (from the metabunk link) such as the usual godlike-products site seem to have equated it to a SIM game. Otherwise, the story seems very quit for now and many more questions need to be asked. Certainly a photo of this perceptual magnitude, including its either pro or con commentary, notwithstanding the fact that it allegedly came out of an MIT link to a Russian engineer, it does not seem to be emerging from either the Russian or American state proper, and one would think that either a large focus or thick propaganda would be flying high.

 

[Joe]

The story seems to be picking up steam - here is the latest from the Dailymail.co.uk - _http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835088/Is-moment-MH17-shot-flew-Ukraine-Russian-state-broadcaster-produces-satellite-images-showing-fighter-jet-attack.html

Actually, it's being mostly ignored. The daily mail will publish anything! No other mainstream source has done so.

Added: The BBC has picked up on it now, but to report it has been debunked, which supports my theory that it was released for the purpose of debunking the theory.

_http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30064374

 

[Joe]

Just saying... The whole "MIT guy" story is a bit suspicious everything considered, so who knows, but I wouldn't rely on those 'debunking' sources too much, FWIW.

I think in this case the debunking is pretty convincing, not to mention the idea that such a US or Brit satellite image would ever be released. Here's a conspiracy theory for ya. The image was released by Western sources deliberately in the knowledge that someone like that Higgins person (perhaps with his knowledge) would take on the task of debunking it, thereby discrediting the idea that MH17 was shot down by a jet. At the very least, if ever a REAL satellite image is produced, it will automatically be suspected to be fake, like this one.

 

[griffin]

I think in this case the debunking is pretty convincing, not to mention the idea that such a US or Brit satellite image would ever be released. [...] The image was released by Western sources deliberately....

That seems entirely plausible. This is likely US disinformation intended to 'poison the well' in case actual satellite photos surface revealing that one or two Ukrainian military aircraft shot down MK17.

Pictures of a section of the MK17 cockpit fuselage taken soon after the crash show the telltale effects of 30mm cannon fire and are absolutely damning. Russia also has convincing radar data showing one (or maybe two) Ukrainian military aircraft in close proximity to MK17 right around the time of the crash.

 

[Siberia]

I think in this case the debunking is pretty convincing, not to mention the idea that such a US or Brit satellite image would ever be released. [...] The image was released by Western sources deliberately....

That seems entirely plausible. This is likely US disinformation intended to 'poison the well' in case actual satellite photos surface revealing that one or two Ukrainian military aircraft shot down MK17.

If so, then Russia most likely knows the game: notice that the image was released not by the Russian news, but by an independent author Mikhail Leontiev in his own Odnako show. And it is entirely his responsibility now: all Russian news agencies quote and refer to him re this photo.

It should also be noted that Mikhail Leontiev is a famous anti-Western propagandist (not that his anti-Western propaganda is wrong, on the contrary, it is pretty much justifiable). His Odnako show's whole specialization is harsh critics of today's Western politics.

So, when something comes out from Leontiev, one could simply say: "Oh, well, what else did you expect from him? Same old song, "evil West," bla-bla-bla." Which means that Russia most likely knew that the photo is very questionable and deliberately sent its hellhound Leontiev to throw it to the public.

The second important point: it was released immediately before G20 Summit. I think the idea was something like this: let's release the picture right at the beginning of the event, so that no one had time to examine its authenticity. By doing so, they probably expected to win for Vladimir Putin some space for maneuver in his meetings with the Lords of Sanctions. Notice that Abbot never mentioned MH17, as he numerously promised before. Abbot and Putin were hugging koalas and shaking hands instead:

Just my thoughts, maybe wrong, fwiw.

 

[Possibility of Being]

I think in this case the debunking is pretty convincing, not to mention the idea that such a US or Brit satellite image would ever be released. Here's a conspiracy theory for ya. The image was released by Western sources deliberately in the knowledge that someone like that Higgins person (perhaps with his knowledge) would take on the task of debunking it, thereby discrediting the idea that MH17 was shot down by a jet. At the very least, if ever a REAL satellite image is produced, it will automatically be suspected to be fake, like this one.

Agreed. I don't think it just happened. Someone wanted it happen and happen at that time. Whether it was Western idea, or 5th column's or someone else's, it's hard to say. It can probably steer in the pot in more than one way, too. Well, we'll see.

In the meantime, someone posted a comment at niqnaq's blog with a link to a livejournal entry where someone is debunking the debunkers' claims. AI, you can find there some reasonable explanation re: the childish geometry used by the debunkers.

FWIW, here it goes, it's originally in Russian, translated by yandex; not perfect, but understandable:

_http://z5h64q92x9.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/eugenyshultz.livejournal.com/589966.html

 

[Joe]

Here's an example of the way the mainstream media is spinning the story

Russia accused of faking pics to shift blame in MH17 disaster

_http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/russia-accused-of-faking-pics-to-shift-blame-in-mh17-disaster/story-fnizu68q-1227123846130

 

[Voyageur]

Here's an example of the way the mainstream media is spinning the story

Russia accused of faking pics to shift blame in MH17 disaster

_http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/russia-accused-of-faking-pics-to-shift-blame-in-mh17-disaster/story-fnizu68q-1227123846130

Pretty much says it.

Here was Vine Yard of the Saker's thoughts by Mercouis: _http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ch/2014/11/new-mh17-satellite-photos-warning.html

Saturday, November 15, 2014

New MH17 satellite photos - a warning

by Alexander Mercouris

I have deliberately helped back on the story about the satellite photos that supposedly show a Ukrainian fighter shooting down MH17 to see what the response would be, whether any more evidence would come to light and what the Russian government and military would say about them .

In the event the Russian government and military have ignored them as I notice to a great extent have Russian media organisations like Sputnik,TASS and RT.

The photos have been widely ridiculed as fakes and I am afraid I tend to agree. My reason for thinking that these photos are almost certainly fakes is not because of the specific criticisms that have been made of the photos (persuasive though some of these criticisms are) but that the photos are quite simply too good to be true. Until and unless we know the actual provenance of these photos (ie. whose satellite supposedly took them - we only know it was not the Russians') we should pay them no attention.

I would make two more points about these photos:

1. It seems that these photos were part of the evidence used by a body known as the Russian Institute of Engineers that published a report on MH17. I don't know much about this body but I was frankly unimpressed by the report. If the report did draw on these photos, then I am afraid that is another reason to treat that report with skepticism.

2. From literally the day MH17 was shot down it has been clear to me that an organised attempt is being made by someone to spread the story that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter. There was the story of the mysterious Spanish air traffic controller for instance that circulated within hours of the tragedy and which effectively got the theory going. Note that we have heard little or nothing from this person since then, which makes his evidence look even more like someone's fabrication.

It is possible that those behind this operation are the Russians, possibly because they know that that is what happened and they want to draw people's attention to the fact. However if that were the case then I would have expected them to say as much publicly and to make their evidence public since they have no conceivable reason to keep it secret.

I have to say (and I have been worrying about this for some time) that It seems to me frankly more likely that whoever is behind the campaign to circulate this theory is doing so deliberately in order to create a false trail in the full knowledge that the theory is false and that it will eventually be proved to be false, leaving those who believed it feeling foolish and appearing discredited.

Let me assure people that I know both from history and experience that these sort of provocation tactics really do happen in the world of intelligence and there most definitely are people working in intelligence agencies around the world who really are capable of concocting and carrying out operations of this sort. The fact that these photos appear to originate with a western source strengthen these concerns. .

Let me remind people of my previous comment: we should not let ourselves be hustled into a false binary where fighter=Ukrainians and BUK=NAF. As of today we know for a fact the Ukrainians had both and we do not know for a fact that the NAF had either. That is as far as the facts so far go.
-------
Commentary by the Saker: while I do not have the expertise to state so categorically, I continue to believe that this is a fake. What I am sure of is that it shows a Su-27 and not a Su-25 (or even a MiG-29). The difference between a Su-27 and Su-25 is immense, and if we accept the notion that a Su-278 might have attacked MH-17 then we need to completely revise our model of the flight envelopes of the two aircraft and of the engagement. I am not saying categorically that this is impossible, but only that I am extremely dubious.

The Saker

 

[axj]

Here is an excellent debunking of the debunkers (unfortunately, only in Russian):
http://rusvesna.su/news/1416043616

Just a few points from the article:

The debunkers claim that the fighter jet looks more like a Mig-29 and not like a SU-27. In reality:

Then, the claim that the photo cannot be from a satellite is easily disproven, for example with this Google Earth satellite image of a different plane:

The idea that the picture of the Boeing was taken from the first result in Google when searching for "Boeing from above" is also disproven:

That the plane went down about 50 km from the place where it exploded can be explained by the the initial speed of the plane (700 km/h).

That the time stamp on the photo (UTC 1:19:47) does not match the established time of the explosion (about 13:21) is explained by the American use of pm and am, in which case it fits.

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

The European Commission on Monday considering possible emergency measures due to the fact that at a poultry farm in the Dutch village was discovered by bird flu.

150 thousand chickens on a farm in the village Hekendorp currently being destroyed in accordance with the sanitary regulations of the European Union.

The Netherlands Government states that it is a strain of H5N8 - extremely dangerous for birds and potentially dangerous to humans.

At the same time, the Ministry of Economy of the Netherlands stresses that people can become infected with H5N8 flu only after very close contact with infected birds.

Across the country entered a three-day ban on the transport of chickens, eggs, manure and straw used on the farm.

Previous outbreaks in Europe and Asia have a high level of infectivity, and at least once been infected and also people.

The EU representative Ricardo Cardoso said that the European Commission announced emergency provisional measures in connection with this outbreak of disease.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/11/141117_europe_bird_flu

it is answer of the Universe for Boeing to Dutch psychopaths