Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 Crashes in Ukraine

[Windmill knight]

Here's a video taken from moments right after the crash of the aircraft. Does anyone know if people are saying anything of interest?

http://<iframe width="560" height="...lE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

Here's a video taken from moments right after the crash of the aircraft. Does anyone know if people are saying anything of interest?

general concern about the crash site, someone asks:
"And where are the pilots? seen them?" - "No, can not see them."
"wreckages are scattered everywhere, in the yard too. struck the roof..."
"and two aircraft was that?" - "No, one." - "He ripped by a missile."
"and there is was burning?" - "Where?" - And in this video is cut off.

 

[Altair]

And conversely: _http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc3_1415985472&comments=1

HD satellite image of alleged UA fighter attacking MH17

Launch of air-to-air missile can be see on the image.

Obviously this publication of this photo (which according to some sources has been revealed 1 month ago) in Russian official media is connected to G20 events, and judging by that they're spreading it using official media they've decided to use that, what they have been keeping since summer. Naturally expertise is required, but judging by how serious they're it pretty much reveal that the image is authentic.

Your right though, the story has not being carried where you think it should be carried - all so unverifiable i.e. "sources".

Well, I think this fake image could be a good example of reverse psychology. Firstly, there were no official statements of Russian militaries about that. Secondly, this image appeared before G20 event and was already picked up by western MSM which is very suspicious. The holes in the MH17 fuselage could only be made by a 30-mm canone and not by a rocket. But on the image we see a clear rocket trace coming from the left wing of the jet-fighter (it can't be a trace from the bullets since on this jet-fighter models (it's apparently one of the modification of Su-27/Su-30) a 30-mm canone is placed on the right side) - see attached pictures.

I think the idea behind that is first to create and publish a fake image and then quickly discredit it as a Russia's fake and "debunk" the whole theory that it was downed by a jet-fighter.

 

[Laura]

Here's an example of the way the mainstream media is spinning the story

Russia accused of faking pics to shift blame in MH17 disaster

_http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/russia-accused-of-faking-pics-to-shift-blame-in-mh17-disaster/story-fnizu68q-1227123846130

Pretty much says it.

Here was Vine Yard of the Saker's thoughts by Mercouis: _http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ch/2014/11/new-mh17-satellite-photos-warning.html

Saturday, November 15, 2014

New MH17 satellite photos - a warning

by Alexander Mercouris

I have deliberately helped back on the story about the satellite photos that supposedly show a Ukrainian fighter shooting down MH17 to see what the response would be, whether any more evidence would come to light and what the Russian government and military would say about them .

In the event the Russian government and military have ignored them as I notice to a great extent have Russian media organisations like Sputnik,TASS and RT.

The photos have been widely ridiculed as fakes and I am afraid I tend to agree. My reason for thinking that these photos are almost certainly fakes is not because of the specific criticisms that have been made of the photos (persuasive though some of these criticisms are) but that the photos are quite simply too good to be true. Until and unless we know the actual provenance of these photos (ie. whose satellite supposedly took them - we only know it was not the Russians') we should pay them no attention.

I would make two more points about these photos:

1. It seems that these photos were part of the evidence used by a body known as the Russian Institute of Engineers that published a report on MH17. I don't know much about this body but I was frankly unimpressed by the report. If the report did draw on these photos, then I am afraid that is another reason to treat that report with skepticism.

2. From literally the day MH17 was shot down it has been clear to me that an organised attempt is being made by someone to spread the story that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter. There was the story of the mysterious Spanish air traffic controller for instance that circulated within hours of the tragedy and which effectively got the theory going. Note that we have heard little or nothing from this person since then, which makes his evidence look even more like someone's fabrication.

{Sometimes the EARLIEST reports, like the "sound of a jet" at the Pentagon, that then get silenced, are the more accurate.}

It is possible that those behind this operation are the Russians, possibly because they know that that is what happened and they want to draw people's attention to the fact. However if that were the case then I would have expected them to say as much publicly and to make their evidence public since they have no conceivable reason to keep it secret.

{There may be many reasons to keep evidence secret including that one has the capability to HAVE evidence of a certain kind. There have been strong suggestions that the Russians had info about 9-11 that is STILL secret... }

I have to say (and I have been worrying about this for some time) that It seems to me frankly more likely that whoever is behind the campaign to circulate this theory is doing so deliberately in order to create a false trail in the full knowledge that the theory is false and that it will eventually be proved to be false, leaving those who believed it feeling foolish and appearing discredited.

{Exactly the argument against the Pentagon Strike - in fact, the one that Mike Rivero still clings to.}

Let me assure people that I know both from history and experience that these sort of provocation tactics really do happen in the world of intelligence and there most definitely are people working in intelligence agencies around the world who really are capable of concocting and carrying out operations of this sort. The fact that these photos appear to originate with a western source strengthen these concerns. .

Let me remind people of my previous comment: we should not let ourselves be hustled into a false binary where fighter=Ukrainians and BUK=NAF. As of today we know for a fact the Ukrainians had both and we do not know for a fact that the NAF had either. That is as far as the facts so far go.
-------
Commentary by the Saker: while I do not have the expertise to state so categorically, I continue to believe that this is a fake. What I am sure of is that it shows a Su-27 and not a Su-25 (or even a MiG-29). The difference between a Su-27 and Su-25 is immense, and if we accept the notion that a Su-278 might have attacked MH-17 then we need to completely revise our model of the flight envelopes of the two aircraft and of the engagement. I am not saying categorically that this is impossible, but only that I am extremely dubious.

The Saker

Funny that about everything "The Saker" says about this comes from the Pentagon Strike playbook.

 

[Siberia]

Funny that about everything "The Saker" says about this comes from the Pentagon Strike playbook.

This Alexander Mercouris, the author of the above analysis, has a very curious bio by the way:

Alexander Mercouris

Expert in: International law, international relations.

Bio:
Alexander is a writer on international affairs with a special interest in Russia and law. He has written extensively on the legal aspects of NSA spying and events in Ukraine in terms of human rights, constitutionality and international law. He worked for 12 years in the Royal Courts of Justice in London as a lawyer, specializing in human rights and constitutional law.

His family has been prominent in Greek politics for several generations. He is a frequent commentator on television and speaker at conferences. He resides in London.

The Saker himself was more cautious in his comment, maybe he is not as much aware of their tactics as Mercouris, fwiw.

 

[thorbiorn]

The secret deal between the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and Ukraine about what can be released regarding MH17 is going around. Here is a Dutch citizen writing:

According to Elsevier sources, this (secret) agreement has one condition that ensures all parties within the JIT group (including Ukraine) have the right to secrecy. In other words: if any of the parties finds that certain evidence might be damaging, it is entitled to demand complete secrecy by all JIT members.

Jan Fluitketel

I am a Dutch citizen who lives here in Malaysia. This morning I read some news regarding MH17 in Elsevier, a worthy Dutch news magazine.

As you should know the Dutch government signed an agreement with 3 other countries (Belgium, Australia and Ukraine) about the manner in which the JIT would investigate the MH17 disaster.

According to Elsevier sources, this (secret) agreement has one condition that ensures all parties within the JIT group (including Ukraine) have the right to secrecy. In other words: if any of the parties finds that certain evidence might be damaging, it is entitled to demand complete secrecy by all JIT members.

Of course an incredible situation: how can Ukraine, one of the two suspected parties, ever be offered such an agreement?

Using the Dutch Secrets Act, Elsevier has recently asked the government to reveal the details of the agreement. Apparently yesterday the Dutch government REFUSED to reveal any of those details, as it could ‘endanger the relations with the other countries involved‘.

You can read it here: _http://www.elsevier.nl/Politiek/achtergrond/2014/11/Ministerie-weigert-geheime-overeenkomst-MH17-openbaar-te-maken-1647600W/?masterpageid=158493

Besides the fact that the MH17 plane was Malaysian territory and Malaysia was not even allowed to join the JIT this is an absolute scandal of epic proportions. It shows the JIT investigation for what it is: a corrupt and useless exercise.

JIT means Joint Investigation Team. On Wikipedia there was: _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

Although the Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte visited Malaysia in November, saying that Malaysia should join the investigation, Malaysia has not yet been invited to join the JIT.[214] The Malaysian ambassador to the Netherlands said, "The Dutch PM alone cannot decide. He also has to ask Australia and Ukraine."[215]

The disussion page on the English Wikipedia is longer than the page itself.

 

[axj]

There may also be a connection between the Netherlands agreeing to keep silent on MH17 and the fact that half of the Dutch gold that was stored in New York was shipped back to Holland just recently - whereas Germany was denied getting its gold back before that.

There were also unconfirmed reports that half of the gold in Ukraine was flown out on a plane by masked men in Western Ukraine.

 

[Oxajil]

Well, it doesn't surprise me that the Dutch government is keeping 'sensitive' information regarding MH17 to themselves.

I watched the ceremony some time ago, and there was a speech by one of the people who had lost a family member due to the MH17 incident. At some point, he said that it's certain the plane was shot down, he didn't mention by who, but I think it was clear who he meant (as mainstream media in the Netherlands has constantly been pointing the finger at Russia in some way or another). Shortly after the incident, there was even a letter written by one of those family members, addressed to Putin, as he was blamed for the death of that person's daughter... Coming back to the ceremony, while it may have been helpful for the victims to come together and get emotional support, it's sad and sickening that the government has not only continuously lied to and manipulated Dutch citizens since the incident, but that it uses this ceremony to show people that they supposedly care, and that they'll do everything they can to 'bring justice and get to the bottom of things'. Yea right, all we've seen so far is just more stalling, secrecy, unjustified blaming, and a vague report.

It should also be noted that while the Netherlands and other guilty parties decide to be secretive, Russia on the other hand, has been asking for transparency: Russia wants regular, transparent reports on MH17 crash probe amid silence from the West

Is it not curious that Russia -- the state accused by the West of being responsible for the downing of MH17 -- is practically the only state calling for all-encompassing, transparent, international information on the investigation? This fact alone suggests there is more to the story than the Western media and politicians are letting on. And that's not to mention the available evidence that strongly points toward Kiev's hand in the MH17 crash.

 

[thorbiorn]

There is a new documentary in Russian about the MH 17. The idea of the film is presented in Russian on _http://moment-istini.com/news/newsrus/2087.html and a part of the text has been translated by Kristina Rus _https://www.facebook.com/kristinarossia/posts/10203500852706227:

"In the film for the first time is named 299-th squadron of the air force of Ukraine, SU-25, tail numbers rooms 06,07,08 and 38, which, contrary to the statement of the General staff of Ukraine, were indeed in the air of this country on July 17, 2014. Malaysian Boeing, according to our data, was shot by SU-25 attack aircraft, tail number 08, piloted by Lieutenant-Colonel of the Ukrainian air force Dmytro Acacus who from July 18 and still is in the UAE. Malaysian Boeing was led by Kiev aircraft controller Anna Petrenko, who on the morning of July 18, unexpectedly went on vacation, and has not returned until now"

What I am wondering is if this is the whole story. The fire from the jet could explain the holes in the cockpit, but if that was all the plane would come down in one piece. It would be interesting to find out what the UA pilots of the fighter jets saw and whom they took orders from.

It is said on the above Website that the full version will be made available after the film has been shown on the program "The Moment of Truth" on the Russian channel 5.

 

[Keit]

It is said on the above Website that the full version will be made available after the film has been shown on the program "The Moment of Truth" on the Russian channel 5.

Thanks for sharing, thorbiorn. It's the same guy, who created "The Unknown Putin" series. And here's YT page of "The Moment of Truth" program. They still have only the trailer there, but they probably will upload it soon.

 

[thorbiorn]

For those who have access to the Russian Channel 5 they might still be able to make it. According to _http://www.5-tv.ru/programs/1000077/ It is being shown 23:20 Moscow time, that is in 35 minutes.

 

[Keit]

For those who have access to the Russian Channel 5 they might still be able to make it. According to _http://www.5-tv.ru/programs/1000077/ It is being shown 23:20 Moscow time, that is in 35 minutes.

That's the link for online watching.

 

[thorbiorn]

For those who have access to the Russian Channel 5 they might still be able to make it. According to _http://www.5-tv.ru/programs/1000077/ It is being shown 23:20 Moscow time, that is in 35 minutes.

That's the link for online watching.

Thank you Keit, even though I missed watching the documentary when it was screened, I have found it on _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1QH03NtVQ0

 

[thorbiorn]

We should not expect to learn much about MH-17 from Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium because:

 

[thorbiorn]

Some reflections on why Malaysia was left out of the group investigating the crash of the MH-17

8.11.2014 Author: Ulson Gunnar
MH17: Malaysia’s Barring from Investigation Reeks of Cover-up
It was a Malaysian jet, carrying Malaysian passengers, flown by Malaysian pilots, yet after Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine in July 2014, Malaysia has been systematically blocked from participating in the investigation, leaving an overwhelmingly pro-NATO bloc in charge of the evidence, investigation and outcome as well as the manner in which the investigation will be carried out.

Despite the integral role Malaysia has played during several pivotal moments in the aftermath of the disaster, it appears that the closer to the truth the investigation should be getting, the further Malaysia itself is being pushed from both the evidence and any influence it has on the likely conclusions of the investigation. With the downed aircraft in question being Malaysian, Malaysia as a partner in the investigation would seem a given. Its exclusion from the investigation appears to be an indication that the investigation’s objectivity has been compromised and that the conclusions it draws will likely be politically motivated.

Joint Investigation Team Includes, Excludes Surprising Members

With the Dutch leading the investigation, the logic being that the flight originated from the Netherlands and the majority of the passengers were Dutch, it has formed a Joint Investigation Team (JIT). At the onset of its creation it seemed obvious that Malaysia would too be included, considering it lost the second largest number of citizens to the disaster and the plane itself was registered in Malaysia. Instead, JIT would end up comprised of Belgium, Ukraine, and Australia, specifically excluding Malaysia.

Malaysia was both surprised and has protested its exclusion from JIT, and has repeatedly expressed a desire to be included directly in the investigation.

Malaysia’s Star newspaper would report, “Malaysian Ambassador to the Netherlands Datuk Dr Fauziah Mohd Taib said Malaysia had not been invited to officially join the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT), which is undertaking the criminal probe.” It would also report that, “Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai said recently that Malaysia had expressed its stand very clearly that it must be part of the criminal investigation team and had informed Dutch authorities of its intention.”

The Malaysian Insider cited Malaysian scholar Dr. Chandra Muzaffar who believes the decision to exclude his country from the investigation is politically motivated, aiming at excluding members that may urge caution and objectivity instead of draw conclusions first and bend the investigation’s results around those conclusions. In particular, Dr. Muzaffar believes that the investigations is intentionally being skewed to target Russia.

Ukraine’s involvement in the investigation is particularly troublesome. Had MH17 crashed in Ukraine under different circumstances, Ukraine’s role would be welcome. However, it was apparently shot down specifically in a conflict in which Kiev itself is a participant. With both sides of the conflict possessing anti-aircraft weapons and with Kiev itself confirmed to possess weapons capable of reaching the altitude MH17 was flying at when it was allegedly hit, Kiev becomes a possible suspect in the investigation. Kiev’s inclusion in JIT represents a monumental conflict of interest.

Imagine a potential suspect leading an investigation into a crime they may have committed. The possibilities to cover up, skew, spin, tamper with or otherwise distort both the evidence and the outcome of the investigation are endless.

And to compound this already glaring conflict of interest, it was revealed recently that an alleged “secret deal” was struck by JIT in which any member could bar the release of evidence. With all members of JIT being pro-NATO and decidedly arrayed against Moscow, such a “deal” could prevent crucial evidence from being revealed that would effect an otherwise distorted conclusion drawn by the investigators aimed specifically at advancing their greater political agenda in Eastern Europe. Had Malaysia been a member of JIT, the ability of other members to withhold evidence would have been greatly diminished and it is likely such a bizarre deal would not have been conceivable, real or imaged, in the first place.

Malaysia’s Exclusion Foreshadows Politically Motivated Outcome

With the ongoing conflict in Ukraine perceived as a proxy war between NATO and Moscow, JIT’s membership including the NATO-backed Kiev regime itself (a possible suspect), two NATO members (Belgium and the Netherlands) and Australia who has passed sanctions against Russia over the conflict, is a textbook case of conflict of interest.

Those nations and international organizations calling for an investigation and for justice but who ignore the obvious problem of participants in a conflict investigating a key incident that may benefit their agenda directly, indicates that such calls for justice are disingenuous and instead, what is being done is not an investigation, but a politically motivated witch-hunt aimed at serving an ulterior motive.

Malaysia is not generally perceived to be a stanch ally of Moscow, but it is neither a loyal client state of Washington, London or Brussels. On many issues, Malaysia has exhibited an independence in foreign policy that has perturbed the so-called international order maintained by the West. And Malaysia’s internal politics have long wrestled to stem inroads by Washington’s favorites including Anwar Ibrahim and his political faction, Pakatan Rakyat.

Its inclusion in the investigation would provide a much needed, impartial counterweight to an otherwise fully pro-NATO JIT membership.

To casual observers, the current investigation led by NATO members and Kiev, a possible suspect, would be no different than the Donetsk People’s Republic and Russia leading it. Few would consider a DPR or Russian led investigation impartial, and few should see a NATO-led investigation as impartial. Had Malaysia been included in the process, an argument could have been made that an actual investigation was taking place rather than a complex propaganda campaign.

Malaysia’s exclusion is a troubling sign for the victims of the MH17 disaster, meaning the true culprits will never be known. The overt politically motivated nature of the investigation will on one hand help fuel NATO’s propaganda war, but on the other hand, fuel the doubts of millions worldwide over the true events that took place in the skies of eastern Ukraine that day. Like so many other events in human history that took place amid a high stake political struggle, the downing of MH17 will be shrouded in mystery, mystery draped over the truth by the irresponsible leadership of NATO, and those in Washington, London and Brussels egging on the conflict in Ukraine to this very day.

Ulson Gunnar, a New York-based geopolitical analyst and writer especially for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook”.