Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 Crashes in Ukraine

[bjorb]

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20160603_02322440

Summary= several of the big media outlets in The Netherlands asked for the right of making the Dutch investigation public. There call got answered but most has been made unreadable.

The big media outlets who asked for this did not report this on the news. Which confirms yet again that they are just having a dog and pony show. Ultimately they will conclude, we acted very critically and asked the government for all data and we must concur that Putin deliberate shot the plane down.

Or something alike..

 

[Palinurus]

Thanks bjorn.

Signaling for archiving purposes (from RT source): https://www.sott.net/article/319606-MH17-criminal-probe-at-advanced-stage-as-relatives-press-Malaysia-Airlines-with-lawsuit

 

[Palinurus]

From: http://www.nltimes.nl/2016/06/06/large-buk-missile-part-found-at-mh17-crash-site/

Large BUK missile part found at MH17 crash site

Posted on Jun 6, 2016 by Janene Pieters

BUK missile part "venturi" found at MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine (Photo: Joint Investigation Team)

The MH17 investigation team found the “exhaust” of a BUK missile at the site of the crash in eastern Ukraine, the Joint Investigation Team revealed on Monday in an online magazine on the investigation into the disaster.

The missile part is a so-called Venturi. It is located on the bottom of a BUK missile and the gasses that propel the missile are released through it.

This is the first time it’s been revealed that such a large part of a BUK missile was found at the site where the Malaysian Airlines plane crashed on July 17th, 2014. All 298 people on board were killed, including 196 Dutch.

The magazine also gave insight into other aspects of the criminal investigation into the disaster, including the forensic investigation, the collection of ground samples and requests for mutual assistance. For example, the magazine reveals that small pieces of metal found in some of the victims’ bodies provided the first breakthrough. The metal showed traces of zirconium, which is used only in cockpit glass. This indicated that the metal pieces came from outside, through the cockpit glass.

It was also revealed that the JIT investigation has been delayed for several reasons. The team is still awaiting information from Russia about BUK missile systems. And in some cases the team met opposition in its inquiries, for example the separatists in Luhansk would not give the team permission to do technical research on phone masts in the area.

The Ministry of Security and Justice hopes to give more insight into the criminal investigation surrounding the MH17 disaster with this magazine, Fred Westerbeke, chief prosecutor and coordinator of the team, writes. “We get a lot of questions about it. Who is working on it? How is the cooperation between different countries?” He hopes that the magazine “gives a better picture of what is happening in the criminal investigation and the way we are working on getting the truth about the shooting down of MH17 on the table.”

From: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/06/mh17-investigators-publish-picture-of-buk-debris-from-crash-site/

MH17 investigators publish picture of BUK nozzle found at crash site

June 6, 2016

A fragment of the BUK missile. Picture: JIT

The team investigating the shooting down of Malaysian Airways flight MH17 has published a picture of a fragment of BUK missile found at the crash site.

The Joint Investigation Team (JIT) said the picture showed the nozzle of a Russian-made BUK surface-to-air missile. The Dutch Safety Board (DSB) has already concluded in its examination of the plane that a BUK model 9N314M was responsible for the crash.

The identification of the missile was one of the pieces of evidence the DSB relied on in finding that the plane was shot down by a Russian-made missile which struck the cockpit from the left. All 298 people on board the plane died when it was hit while flying over Ukraine on July 17, 2014 on its way to Kuala Lumpur. Two-thirds of the passengers were Dutch nationals.

Eliot Higgins, founder of the investigative website Bellingcat, pointed out on Twitter that the nozzle had been found last year. The picture was used by DSB chairman Tjibbe Joustra when he presented the board’s conclusions last October, Higgins said.

A team from the public prosecution department is currently trying to work out exactly where the missile was fired from so it can bring the perpetrators to justice. Russia has consistently denied that it had any involvement in the attack and rejected claims that pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine were responsible.

The on-line magazine carries the title "MH17 - six aspects of the criminal investigation explained"

Table of contents:

Introduction
Forensic research into debris in Gilze-Rijen
Field Office in Kiev
Collecting soil samples in disputed territory
Investigation into the weapon system
Working together in the JIT
Legal Assistance

 

[Palinurus]

After reading this on-line JIT magazine, I have to say this is mainly a public relations exercise.

Apparently the dissatisfaction of the victims' relatives and the wider public opinion has necessitated an interim overview of the procedures which have been followed, with ample emphasis on all the troubles they had to cope with and on their good intentions to find some truth.

It's almost all fluff and nearly no substance. A very disappointing read IMO.

 

[angelburst29]

After reading this on-line JIT magazine, I have to say this is mainly a public relations exercise.

Apparently the dissatisfaction of the victims' relatives and the wider public opinion has necessitated an interim overview of the procedures which have been followed, with ample emphasis on all the troubles they had to cope with and on their good intentions to find some truth.

It's almost all fluff and nearly no substance. A very disappointing read IMO.

Thanks for Posting all the extra information, Palinurus. I still have to review the links that you have provided but the first question that comes to mind - on the BUK missile part - "How do they know if this part is involved in the plane incident? The Plane went down in a War Zone, where there had been previous military conflicts, including shelling? Producing a photo of a fragment of a missile means nothing, if there isn't a report to clarify where it was found and what evidence they have to support their claim?

 

[Palinurus]

the first question that comes to mind - on the BUK missile part - "How do they know if this part is involved in the plane incident? The Plane went down in a War Zone, where there had been previous military conflicts, including shelling? Producing a photo of a fragment of a missile means nothing, if there isn't a report to clarify where it was found and what evidence they have to support their claim?

I'm of likewise skepticism.

You have to keep in mind, though, that these BUK missiles are surface-to-air and cannot be used for other purposes like common shelling. You have also to keep in mind that they claim to have found this 'nozzle' on the crash site itself but then again conclusive proof of such hasn't been published as of yet. They just claimed a very large area around it as the possible launch site of origin with no further specifications to narrow it down. The magazine just explains why it is so difficult to pinpoint the exact location and that again only in general terms, so no specifics there either.

If anything, this magazine seems to add to the mounting frustration in stead of appeasing the growing storm of criticism I think.

 

[Oxajil]

the first question that comes to mind - on the BUK missile part - "How do they know if this part is involved in the plane incident? The Plane went down in a War Zone, where there had been previous military conflicts, including shelling? Producing a photo of a fragment of a missile means nothing, if there isn't a report to clarify where it was found and what evidence they have to support their claim?

I'm of likewise skepticism.

You have to keep in mind, though, that these BUK missiles are surface-to-air and cannot be used for other purposes like common shelling. You have also to keep in mind that they claim to have found this 'nozzle' on the crash site itself but then again conclusive proof of such hasn't been published as of yet. They just claimed a very large area around it as the possible launch site of origin with no further specifications to narrow it down. The magazine just explains why it is so difficult to pinpoint the exact location and that again only in general terms, so no specifics there either.

If anything, this magazine seems to add to the mounting frustration in stead of appeasing the growing storm of criticism I think.

That's a really good question angelburst29. It really is suspicious, I'm skeptic about it too. They published the picture in their final report as well (so what the article above said: "This is the first time it’s been revealed that such a large part of a BUK missile was found at the site..." is not true). This is what Joe wrote about it at the time:

Further evidence of the highly speculative nature of the evidence presented by the report is seen in the section that deals with the parts of the body of the alleged Buk missile that were found in Ukraine. On page 80 of the report, images of these parts alongside images of the body of a Buk missile are shown. One of the parts is described as a "missile engine nozzle" that was "found in Ukraine".

The problem with the cone shaped nozzle as 'evidence' that a Buk missile was used is that there are no distinguishing marks on this nozzle, and virtually every missile of similar size to a Buk 9M38M1, including many air-to-air missiles, uses a similar cone-shaped nozzle.

Even if we assume they found it at the location, this is not really good evidence that a 'Russian-made BUK missile' was involved. More probable is maybe that they sent out a team to find a nozzle that was kinda damaged (could've been anywhere), and then put it on a table, took a picture, and there you go...

 

[angelburst29]

Ever since I came across this report (Reply 558 - Page 38) I have trouble taking any evidence - seriously.
Why haven't the Authorities arrested this guy or searched his place of residence for the evidence that he illegally obtained at the crash scene? It's also "convenient" that he just happened to be in the area when the plane came down and was the first one on the scene? Then to collect any Passports or other personal items "for safe keeping" - is still tampering with evidence? Instead, he gets "a warning" by Federal Police to return the collected items? If this same guy robbed a Jewelry store - would the Federal Police just calmly ask him to return the items at his leisure, when he got around to it? Makes me wonder, what else this guy carted off and I don't think it was part of a BUK missile?

The Australian Federal Police has warned an Australian citizen to return items he says he collected from the MH17 crash site near the Ukraine-Russian border.

Key points:

•Demjin Doroschenko, one of the first on the crash scene, formed self-proclaimed MH17 Donbass Recovery Team
•He claimed he had already handed some items over to authorities in Kiev
•AFP says it has issued a warning to Doroschenko

MH17: AFP warns journalist to hand back debris, personal items gathered from crash site
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-04/journalist-warned-to-hand-back-mh17-debris/7295994


April 4, 2016 - First generation Australian-Ukrainian Demjin Doroschenko was in the region working as a freelance journalist when MH17 was shot down.

The 45-year-old said he was one of the first on scene and formed the self-proclaimed MH17 Donbass Recovery Team.

He said he collected pieces of evidence for "safekeeping and out of reach of the forces of the Russian Federation".

 

[Palinurus]

Collecting the puzzle pieces from the crash site has always been a very sordid and messy affair from the get-go IMO.

Going through this thread again, I (re)discovered that the retrieval of BUK missile parts (of undisclosed nature) was first mentioned in Reply #454 from mid-August 2015. It could've been the aforementioned nozzle was among them...

In all cases that find was over a year after the incident itself, so anything is possible as to the way in which it ended up there to be found.

 

[angelburst29]

More questions and no solid answers?

MH17 could have been downed unintentionally – int’l investigation team
https://www.rt.com/news/345612-mh17-report-unintentionally-downed/

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which crashed over eastern Ukraine, could have been downed “unintentionally,” a new report by the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) says, adding that experts working on the case often lack the experience and data needed.

“An important question for the criminal investigation is whether a missile can be launched unintentionally. Did anyone accidentally push a button which caused the missile to be launched? Or can this only be done by means of a conscious act? And how exactly does the weapon system select its target?” reads a JIT report on the investigation of the MH17 tragedy, published on Monday on the Dutch Public Prosecution Service's website.

However, the document gives no answers to these questions, complaining instead that it is often difficult to find the relevant information while the investigators involved in the enquiry are “untrained” for dealing with such issues.

It is a “difficult task,” Gerrit Thiry, the weapons system investigation team leader, says in the report, explaining that “ever since the seventies, missiles have been manufactured for war purposes and have been exported to numerous countries. These were the hey-days of the Cold War. Specific technical details are strictly confidential.”

“In addition, the corresponding manuals are not freely available,” Susanne Huiberts, an operational specialist from the Dutch National Criminal Investigation Service, also an investigator, says.

The investigators rely partly on “limited information [that] can be found on the internet, as part of an article, for example.”

“But then you still do not understand what it means, because it is a very specific professional field,” Huiberts says. “It is not enough either to find interpreters to translate these texts. First they need to get familiar with the jargon, learn to understand the abbreviations and decipher everything step by step. This takes a lot of time and energy.”

The investigators still do not rule out any potential explanation of what happened in July 2014. For the criminal investigation led by the JIT, “the evidential standard is set much higher than for the [Dutch Safety Board] OVV” that concluded in October 2015 that the aircraft had been brought down by a Buk missile.

“Everything we investigate is a point of discussion,” says Thiry. “We have nothing of which we know for sure whether it is true and genuine. After all, we are dealing with a conflict involving several parties. These parties may have an interest in manipulating or contaminating material. Therefore, we continuously ask ourselves what could be the interest of a source to distribute certain information.”

Lacking experience

The JIT report often stresses that the international team, consisting of investigators and experts from the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia, Malaysia and Ukraine, often lack the specific knowledge and experience needed in such a complicated case.

“Because none of the teams has any experience with such a complex investigation of this type on such a large scale, the researchers must rely on themselves during the examination. That means being innovative, drawing on one’s professional networks and experience, and learning a lot on the job to solve problems as the examination progresses,” the document says.

Some of the evidence is obtained from “self-appointed experts” that should be first verified to check whether they are “indeed experts, rather than amateurs.”

“That is why several experts have been heard. When different sources point in the same direction, investigators can take a step forward. These sources are, for example, sources from industry, several states and ‘open sources’ on the internet,” the document says.

Conditions that the investigators have to work in are often far from ideal.

“In an office building in Kiev, Australian and Dutch investigating officers are working in cramped conditions in a small room. The working conditions are far from perfect, but the small room has a great advantage: the investigating officers cannot possibly get round each other,” the report says.

Investigation at advanced stage

Despite the setbacks and the claim that no version has been ruled out, the JIT claims the probe is at a “very advanced stage.”

In a statement two days before this latest report, they said they would be able to tell which weapon was used to down the plane, and where it was launched from, "after the summer." The findings will be included in a criminal file and will not be made public.

The JIT also claimed that it is “still waiting for information from the Russian Federation about Buk [missile defense systems] installations” – despite Moscow’s repeated calls for it to consider the satellite and technical data it has already provided.

In February, the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency sent an official letter to the Dutch Safety Board, stressing that Russia had repeatedly offered assistance in the investigation of the MH17 tragedy but the JIT “showed no interest” in working with Russia.

As for the technical specifications of the Buk systems, back in October, the rocket’s manufacturer, Russian company Almaz-Antey, published its own report on the MH17 crash, with detailed technical characteristics of the Buk and Buk-M1 systems as well as data from two full-scale experiments involving missile firing tests.

 

[Palinurus]

This RT piece is a fair compilation of content and writing style of the JIT magazine. That's why I said almost all fluff and nearly no substance.

Meanwhile, other news has surfaced in connection with the 30 million dollar reward which was on offer previously for anyone delivering substantial clues about the perpetrators:

http://sputniknews.com/world/20160608/1040965099/mh17-private-detective-papers.html

'Explosive' Papers Seized From Private Detective Investigating MH17 Crash

02:20 08.06.2016 (updated 02:21 08.06.2016)

German and Swiss authorities have confiscated documents from private detective Josef Resch, who has been conducting his own investigation of the 2014 crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, Dutch officials and media said Tuesday.

Investigators believe that some of the documents seized after last week's raid on the detective's home in Bad Schwartau, northern Germany, may shed light on the circumstances of the tragedy. Some of the papers are said to be "explosive" and could help determine the culprits.

According to De Telegraaf daily, the German detective began his own probe two months after the catastrophe, and has received some $19 million for his investigations. His generous clients remain unknown.

"We are hoping to get some information about this. That's why the raids at his home were carried out," the spokesman for the prosecution service, Wim De Bruin, told AFP.

The contents of Resch's safe-deposit box in a bank in Zurich, Switzerland, were also inspected.

"We don't actually know what was in the box. The Swiss judge must now decide if its contents can be handed over to Dutch officials," the spokesman said.

He added that it is possible that the detective may have been in contact with the culprits.

The Boeing 777 aircraft, operated by Malaysia Airlines as Flight 17, was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was struck by a BUK anti-aircraft missile while flying at 33,000 feet over war-torn eastern Ukraine on June 17, 2014. All 298 passengers and crew — the majority of them Dutch — died in the crash.

A criminal investigation is ongoing in the Netherlands to identify who fired the missile and where from, although many believe that those responsible will never be brought to justice.

The first official findings by criminal investigators are expected after the summer, as they await further information from Russia.

Edited to insert hyperlink to Reply #323

 

[angelburst29]

'Explosive' Papers Seized From Private Detective Investigating MH17 Crash

German and Swiss authorities have confiscated documents from private detective Josef Resch, who has been conducting his own investigation of the 2014 crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, Dutch officials and media said Tuesday.

Interesting find, Palinurus. It states, "German and Swiss authorities have confiscated documents" but I wonder who was behind the authorization for the raid? The Malaysian Government or the Netherlands group investigating the crash?

At the end of the article, this comment was posted which makes a lot of plain sense?

Monte George Jr - The firing of a Buk missile leaves a thick, highly visible trail of combustion products, observable for many miles in every direction. This trail would have been observable by hundreds, perhaps thousands of people in the region where the plane went down. No missile trail was witnessed by anyone that day. No missile trail, no missile. The plane was NOT downed by a buk missile. Why do you insist on repeating this lie??

 

[angelburst29]

This article from Global Research gives some details of the conditions in a Kiev field office where the investigators work.

The Dutch-led investigation into the 2014 shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 relies heavily on information provided by the Ukrainian security service and operates primarily from a field office in Kiev, despite the fact that Ukraine should be a principal suspect in the mystery of who was responsible for killing 298 people.

MH-17 Probe Relies on Principal Suspect Ukraine for Evidence
http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh-17-probe-relies-on-principal-suspect-ukraine-for-evidence/5529730

[...]

the report said.

“In an office building in Kiev, Australian and Dutch investigating officers are working in cramped conditions in a small room. The working conditions are far from perfect, but the small room has a great advantage: the investigating officers cannot possibly get round each other.

“They are professionals who recognize each other’s love for the police work. They understand each other’s circumstances. And they are, regardless of their country of origin, motivated to do their utmost to uncover the truth. …

“Beyond the investigation area of the MH17 investigators office is a long narrow room filled with desks, after which there is another small room. Not exactly a room like you may imagine on the basis of the name ‘Field Office’, but still, it is the name used for this accommodation. …

[...]

Meanwhile, after CIA analysts had time to evaluate U.S. satellite, electronic and other intelligence data, the U.S. government went curiously silent about what it had discovered, including the possible identity of the people who were responsible. The U.S. reticence, after the initial rush to judgment blaming Russia, suggested that the more detailed findings undercut those original claims.

Image: A side-by-side comparison of the Russian presidential jetliner and the Malaysia Airlines plane.

A source who was briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the CIA’s conclusion pointed toward a rogue Ukrainian operation involving a hard-line oligarch with the possible motive of shooting down Russian President Vladimir Putin’s official plane returning from South America that day, with similar markings as MH-17. But I have been unable to determine if that assessment represented a dissident or consensus view inside the U.S. intelligence community.

 

[Palinurus]

Thanks angelburst29.

A source who was briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the CIA’s conclusion pointed toward a rogue Ukrainian operation involving a hard-line oligarch with the possible motive of shooting down Russian President Vladimir Putin’s official plane returning from South America that day, with similar markings as MH-17. But I have been unable to determine if that assessment represented a dissident or consensus view inside the U.S. intelligence community.

The possibility of a mix up of two almost identical planes, one of them belonging to Putin, was amply discussed in the beginning of this thread and the hard-line oligarch has been speculated on as well.

Ukraine's suspected involvement didn't prevent them being included in the DSB and JIT investigations, nor did it preclude a secret agreement about publication of the results with a right of veto for each party involved. I surmise that's one of the reasons Malaysia is now parting this setup and leaning towards cooperation with Russia for doing their own research and disclosure.

 

[Palinurus]

I wonder who was behind the authorization for the raid? The Malaysian Government or the Netherlands group investigating the crash?

Sorry to almost have missed your questions, angelburst29.

The Dutch Public Prosecutor and the Ministry of Justice were the instigators of an international request for legal aid which triggered these actions, according to the Telegraaf daily (in Dutch, partly behind paywall).

At the end of the article, this comment was posted which makes a lot of plain sense?

Monte George Jr - The firing of a Buk missile leaves a thick, highly visible trail of combustion products, observable for many miles in every direction. This trail would have been observable by hundreds, perhaps thousands of people in the region where the plane went down. No missile trail was witnessed by anyone that day. No missile trail, no missile. The plane was NOT downed by a buk missile. Why do you insist on repeating this lie??

Again, this aspect was discussed early in this thread with similar outcome -- including the debunking of some photograph showing some sort of remnant smoke trail somewhere. ;)