NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

[anartist]

By now I have done about 16 sessions of NO, and as I wrote before I haven’t felt any difference subjectively.

However ...

... I have been doing EE since it’s inception, sometimes more and sometimes less diligently. The first two years I felt it has some clear benefits, but over time it seemed to me that this leveled off. The last two years I couldn’t derive any pleasure from doing it - it was a bit like running: You don’t look forward, it’s a slog, but you feel good for having pushed through after that. it certainly always had a calming effect. But I didn’t look forward doing it. Sometimes I struggled with the pipe breathing, sometimes with the bioenergetic breathing. Anyway, to sum it up - it wasn’t fun, more a duty.

When I did EE on Monday, it felt different. I actually derived some pleasure while doing it, especially the bioenergetic portion,which I normally dread. At the time I thought it was a fluke.

I did another EE session tonight, and again, it felt pleasurable, again mostly the bioenergetic portion. And towards the end of it I had waves of ... hard to describe ... “pleasure” or “joy” or “ecstasy” flow through my body, BUT without the emotional aspect, it was a purely bodily sensation.

So after having had this effect twice the timing made me think that this might well be an effect of NO. So for me it seems to work on quite a subtle level, because again, subjectively I don’t seem to feel any direct effect that I could attribute to NO.

Rather interesting ...

I second that!
I've also noticed that I really enjoy the Beatha portoin now, the only down side is I sometimes "blank" during it, similar to what often happens when doing POTS, except now in POTS in addition what can happen is that "movies" happen. I think they're personal (like dreams) but I am not sure as it is hard to remember them when I'm done.

 

[anartist]

I don't think that we are speaking about the same kind of tool. Muse reminds me of another similar tool that Nora G recommended (Mental Health Treatment - Mind Alive).

Yes Gandalf, I think it is. Just after that show I purchased a DAVE(Digital Audio Visual Entrainment) from Mind Alive, and the results have not been awesome. The mind booster for example (increased Alpha) makes me really anxious, and I don't notice anything really from the Meditative (beta-theta) setting. I still use it, mostly for meditation. It may be that I do not entrain easily, and after many session with NO, that may change.

 

[anartist]

Hi hlat

I've caught up reading this thread and glad I did.

"Start with “Regular” and stay with “Regular”, no matter who you are training. Since AutoNAV came to be, easing into your sessions using initial, 2nd & 3rd is no longer necessary."

even the 45 minute session is a regular session, just extended.

Are the creators saying that they just want people to run regular sessions with the default autonav, and not to bother with the other settings or options?

"If you find it a challenge to keep a child seated during a full session, quiet activities like reading, homework, or board games are fine. They can even watch a movie."


I'm glad the visual option is still 95% effective as that seems pretty good to me, especially with the alternative of 0 for people who won't stay with it.

actually the statement says that the imported movies are 95% effective compared to the NO visuals. It doesn't say how effective the NO visuals are.

The rental prices I've found so far are $800 for 20 sessions or $1,050 for unlimited sessions per month. Those are not small amounts of money, so I'm still pondering what I'm going to do. Having the tendency to go all in, if I did rent for a month, then I'd probably do what Gandalf did with the unlimited rental and run 200 sessions in that month between myself and friends and family.


I was wondering if there is there a member in Western US who can act as the operator?

 

[anartist]

Good questions, Ellipse ! I just finished to read Strangers to ourselves where the author T. Wilson emphasizes on how easily we can be mislead by our adaptive unconscious (likes biases, false asumptions, etc.) . I plan to continue my readings with thinking fast thinking slow (system1/system 2). All this brain stuff seems so complex, it's difficult to imagine how a simple system like NO can balance brain.

I was told by the therapist who rented me my machine that one could do 2 sessions per day, if there were 4+ hours between them. That is the protocol, which maybe you were not aware of. However, it looks like you have not suffered, but it may have been a waste of a session/time as has been stated about the lack of efficacy in doing a longer session (45 minites) versus the regular session (33 minutes).
If you are renting a machine, that may be a consideration.

 

[anartist]

I've tried to focus on specific issues or think about a particular thing many sessions and I simply can't do it. Anytime I try to my thoughts just keep going in different directions and can't focus on any one particular thing for too long. But I also don't fall asleep and towards the end I'm not really thinking about anything at all and in a meditative state. Although, for today's session I did manage to read for almost 10 minutes before I started to feel too tired and unable to concentrate. Perhaps after more sessions I'll be able to do something like that (focus on issues and consciously work through them or even read a book). As it stands now, doing NO still feels like a heavy load on the brain and I can't do much else until after I'm done!

Hi fabric. Have you thought of doing the exercise given by Choepel at NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography I wonder if it might help with the scattered thoughts? worth an experiment maybe.

 

[Thor]

I was told by the therapist who rented me my machine that one could do 2 sessions per day, if there were 4+ hours between them. That is the protocol, which maybe you were not aware of. However, it looks like you have not suffered, but it may have been a waste of a session/time as has been stated about the lack of efficacy in doing a longer session (45 minites) versus the regular session (33 minutes).
If you are renting a machine, that may be a consideration.

I've been doing two sessions per day for 16 days. I do one session in the morning before going to work and one at night before dinner so there's 8-12 hours between sessions. For me, the morning sessions often bring up a feeling of sadness and the afternoon sessions bring peace. Some morning sessions are OK. During the first couple of morning sessions, the sadness was more intense and lasted longer. Now the feeling comes but is less intense and fades out more quickly.

 

[fabric]

Hi fabric. Have you thought of doing the exercise given by Choepel at NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography I wonder if it might help with the scattered thoughts? worth an experiment maybe.

Interesting, and could be worth a try. Although, I'm not sure cook's technic will help since it seems to be more for nervousness or to help reduce line noise, but ya never know! I sort of gave up trying to focus on anything in particular and just let NO do its thing. That works for now and maybe later I'll be able to do other things while doing it.

 

[choepel]

Yes Gandalf, I think it is. Just after that show I purchased a DAVE(Digital Audio Visual Entrainment) from Mind Alive, and the results have not been awesome. The mind booster for example (increased Alpha) makes me really anxious, and I don't notice anything really from the Meditative (beta-theta) setting. I still use it, mostly for meditation. It may be that I do not entrain easily, and after many session with NO, that may change.

Just make sure you don't mix such technologies with NO. They are incompatible and will cancel out all good effects of NO.

 

[choepel]

All this brain stuff seems so complex, it's difficult to imagine how a simple system like NO can balance brain.

NO may be simple to operate. The technology behind it is extremely complex and based on the advanced mathematics of non linear dynamics. To date, nobody has been able to replicate the work of Dr Val Brown.

 

[nature]

Thahk you choepel for your responses all along this thread. It's great to have you here.

 

[Gwenllian]

To me, it's like if you make a change in one area of your brain, expecting a particular result to occur, a simple cause and effect, then you'll be surprised by other changes and things that occur beyond your expectations because of the interconnectedness in all things. But that NeurOptimal takes this into account and gives the brain a birds-eye view of itself in order to adjust accordingly to what it sees based on the 'innate wisdom' that our brain's and nervous system carry within. Although that's probably a huge over-simplification.

Nonetheless, I'm finding the concept of non-linear dynamics far more interesting than I once did and can't help but relate it to our attitudes in life. That if we take an approach to life and the universe with open curiousity and find faith, taking risks to grow and make the 'right' choices for the betterment of ourselves and those around us, seeking the truth no matter how terrifying, and striving to be the best we can possibly be without obsessing about it, that this is sort of like sending a feedback signal to ourselves and the universe that we are trying to find homeostasis and balance within ourselves, which then causes all sorts of other shifts and changes to occur not only in us, but also the world at large i.e. big brain, osit.

Maybe I am being too simplistic as well, but these non-linear dynamics may also be found in acupressure/acupuncture. For instance, stimulating some points in the body to reduce swelling in the legs may set healing in motion in another location in the body. Also, I was thinking about learning, which could also be a non-linear process, and might be a reason why schools fail so dismally when it comes to teaching the young. Just my two cents.

 

[Jacques]

There is an international congress for Neuroptimal in Montreal right now.

From Facebook:

Susan Cheshire Brown Ph.D. is live from NeurOptimal® 2018 Transforming Lives Conference in Montreal

And the link for the page and the recorded video is:

https://www.facebook.com/NeurOptima...BwXHEL9a1VoHwonNZaJoAortivtsUm41GfLnvaT7jLjj8

Found the way to add the video:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1858314937546408

 

[Thor]

I am considering buying a NeurOptimal professional system with unlimited sessions. I would use it for myself and my nephew who suffers from ADHD and behavioural disorders and hopefully a lot of other people who could benefit from NO.

It's an expensive system so I thought that it might be an idea to give Forum members in Europe an option of renting the system at a discount and thereby recoup some of the costs at the same time. In addition to that, I'd also be open to give individual sessions to people in Copenhagen.

I'd be renting out the system with unlimited sessions for EUR 850 for 4 weeks and giving sessions in Copenhagen for EUR 40 per session.

Before making a decision to buy, I thought I'd just gauge whether this is of any interest. If so, just send me a PM.

 

[Laura]

I am considering buying a NeurOptimal professional system with unlimited sessions. I would use it for myself and my nephew who suffers from ADHD and behavioural disorders and hopefully a lot of other people who could benefit from NO.

It's an expensive system so I thought that it might be an idea to give Forum members in Europe an option of renting the system at a discount and thereby recoup some of the costs at the same time. In addition to that, I'd also be open to give individual sessions to people in Copenhagen.

I'd be renting out the system with unlimited sessions for EUR 850 for 4 weeks and giving sessions in Copenhagen for EUR 40 per session.

Before making a decision to buy, I thought I'd just gauge whether this is of any interest. If so, just send me a PM.

You do know that we have the system here in France and do the sessions for free for FOTCM members, don't you?

 

[Bluefyre]

I've had 24 sessions and the biggest, yet subtle change I notice is that the feeling of being externally driven in just about everything from housework to reading has pretty much disappeared. There is an ease I've never experienced before. I go from task to task or relaxing time with no compulsion anymore that I "have" to do this or "have" to do that. I can't even call it motivation, but a gentle impulse from within. It's a different kind of drive that I can't quite put into words. It may be subjective, but I seem to accomplish much more with greater ease. What a relief!