NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

After reading The Anatomy of Violence, Inside the Criminal Mind and Symphony in the Brain (in progress) I came to a conclusion that NF technology may be an unexplored tool for rehabilitation of criminals. Most of them see themselves as "good (wo)men", and their main problem is in abnormal thinking patterns. NF has a lot of documented cases of fixing such abnormal thinking (there is a case in TAoV, and Othmer's son Brian was cured of his violent behavior before he died of overdose). Also NF can help with alcohol/drug abuse, which often leads to crime. More than that there's a study suggesting that even psychopaths can get an improvement in rage control with NF. Another 2017 meta-study concludes that there's not enough data yet to make any claims about effectiveness of NF for criminals.

Do you know of any cases when proper NF exacerbated antisocial or criminal behavior? Or made psychos more clever? Maybe Cs can give us a hint how good NF can be for fixing criminal behavior?
 
aimarok said:
After reading The Anatomy of Violence, Inside the Criminal Mind and Symphony in the Brain (in progress) I came to a conclusion that NF technology may be an unexplored tool for rehabilitation of criminals. Most of them see themselves as "good (wo)men", and their main problem is in abnormal thinking patterns. NF has a lot of documented cases of fixing such abnormal thinking (there is a case in TAoV, and Othmer's son Brian was cured of his violent behavior before he died of overdose). Also NF can help with alcohol/drug abuse, which often leads to crime. More than that there's a study suggesting that even psychopaths can get an improvement in rage control with NF. Another 2017 meta-study concludes that there's not enough data yet to make any claims about effectiveness of NF for criminals.

Do you know of any cases when proper NF exacerbated antisocial or criminal behavior? Or made psychos more clever? Maybe Cs can give us a hint how good NF can be for fixing criminal behavior?
Click to expand...

Very interesting info and question.

I wonder a bit about people who do NO sessions and the result is the emergence of anger. I mean, the main thing that NO helped me with was worrying obsessively and beating myself up more or less obsessively. I was able to get back my generally accepting approach to things. But what is it when the results are emerging anger? Does that mean that the person puts a lot of energy into suppressing anger, and making themselves sick that way, and now they feel that they must get relief by expressing it? And is it valid anger? And why is it aimed outward and not inward?

Just some thoughts.
 
Laura said:
Very interesting info and question.

I wonder a bit about people who do NO sessions and the result is the emergence of anger. I mean, the main thing that NO helped me with was worrying obsessively and beating myself up more or less obsessively. I was able to get back my generally accepting approach to things. But what is it when the results are emerging anger? Does that mean that the person puts a lot of energy into suppressing anger, and making themselves sick that way, and now they feel that they must get relief by expressing it? And is it valid anger? And why is it aimed outward and not inward?

Just some thoughts.
Click to expand...

Yes very interesting. I remember my first session with NO. I felt so much anger that I literally screamed out loud with a lot of anger being released. I felt SO much better after that.
Another thing I noticed was that I lost my drive, related to my work. I have always been driven to do, do do. I was pretty upset about that. .
But I just kept going at a steady pace. I can feel now that my drive has returned but in a more controlled way. So all is good.
 
Laura said:
Very interesting info and question.

I wonder a bit about people who do NO sessions and the result is the emergence of anger. I mean, the main thing that NO helped me with was worrying obsessively and beating myself up more or less obsessively. I was able to get back my generally accepting approach to things. But what is it when the results are emerging anger? Does that mean that the person puts a lot of energy into suppressing anger, and making themselves sick that way, and now they feel that they must get relief by expressing it? And is it valid anger? And why is it aimed outward and not inward?

Just some thoughts.
Click to expand...

In Healing Developmental Trauma authors suggest that anger emerging during therapy is sign of growing awareness and the anger was there before just in suppressed state. After the anger is acknowledged it must be slowly integrated. Aiming anger inward (acting in) or outward (acting out) is a form of suppressing the feeling we use to avoid frightening realizations.

I think feeling angry after NO sessions is a good sign. This anger is not aimed outward, because it implies hurting other people. It's only realization of anger. The same authors suggest to carefully titrate the therapy to avoid abreactions and negative effects. So when a person gets angry after NO, it can be a good idea to take a break, think about this anger and its cause and let it settle.
 
J'ai fini mes 10 séances et mon appareil sera repris demain matin.
J'avoue que j'en suis assez contente car ça m'était difficile de m'arnacher seule et depuis la mauvaise expérience avec mon voisin du dessus et ses menaces de mort sur mes animaux et moi-même le jour même de ma 9ème séance, j'ai été refroidie et surtout avec les douleurs occasionnées à mon dos dont je souffre toujours aujourd'hui ne pouvant me baisser et me relever sans prendre appui sur le dessus de mes genoux et mes cuisses pour me remonter...
Y avait-il un rapport, je ne sais mais j'y pense encore souvent...

I have finished my 10 sessions and my device will be taken back tomorrow morning.
I admit that I am quite happy about it because it was difficult for me to rip myself off alone and since the bad experience with my neighbour above and his death threats on my animals and myself on the very day of my 9th session, I was cooled down and especially with the pain caused to my back that I still suffer from today not being able to bend down and get up without leaning on the top of my knees and thighs to get up...
Was there a connection, I don't know, but I still think about it often...
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
 
Okay, there's a dilemma ...
I have a nearby therapist (in 20 minutes by car) working for NF by Othmar's method. I went through the topic and the experiences are different, mostly not very positive ... does anybody have extra advice? whether I try and see or not try?
 
aimarok said:
Maybe Cs can give us a hint how good NF can be for fixing criminal behavior?
Click to expand...

I think there's an element of free will that neurofeedback "can't fix". People have noticed how they are able to self-observe more. Perhaps at the end of the day, it is up to each individual to do what it is in them to do after the reactivity is calmed down with Neuroptimal.
 
AzarHyun said:
Okay, there's a dilemma ...
I have a nearby therapist (in 20 minutes by car) working for NF by Othmar's method. I went through the topic and the experiences are different, mostly not very positive ... does anybody have extra advice? whether I try and see or not try?
Click to expand...

The search button is very useful if you know the correct spelling. The Othmer method was tried by Gaby and did not give as good results as NO which does not try to control the brain frequencies but gives feedback for awareness.

It would be best to read the entire thread since the Othmer method (not Othmar) has been talked about a lot here:

  1. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    Very interesting info and question. I wonder a bit about people who do NO sessions and the result is the emergence of anger. I mean, the main thing that NO helped me with was worrying obsessively and beating myself up more or less obsessively. I was able to get back my generally accepting...
  2. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    ...at Cz (Central midline) in NeurOptimal. As it was mentioned, NeurOptimal is dynamic and it doesn't target a "raise alpha waves at CZ" like Othmer Neurofeedback does. Yet there you have it, it works even better. In fact, when I did Othmer Neurofeedback, for me it was very hard to raise up...
  3. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    ...and several have reported amazing results when they do it within a group to the point that some don't want to do it alone. Thank you for your input. I now have a better idea of what is going on here and it also explains my experiences with Othmer NF and my better results with NeurOptimal.
  4. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    In Othmer NF, 16 (more or less) channels are used for quantitive analysis against a small sample of the general population. The quantitive analysis might reveal hypoactivity or hyperactivity in any given region of the brain which might be related with a certain reported symptom or not. A...
  5. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    What is the difference between NeuroOptimal and Othmer method beside former being more effective and safe because it seems there is only Othmer method available where I live, found only one place where they use more advanced MindWave and emWavePro feedback technology, and it s session is 60 min...
  6. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    I've had 25 NeurOptimal sessions and 11 Othmer Neurofeedback sessions. I decided to stop doing the later, as the NeurOptimal has much better effects and it is safer. After my 20th NeurOptimal session on March 30th, I finished with a contraction phase. Anxiety levels came back almost to...

  8. NeurOptimal project - ALL READ
    It seems that it is for Othmer NF as Nicklebleu explains here. The 16 channels are used for quantitive analysis. Once you have that, you set up a protocol to work with. Some therapists work with 2 electrodes and synchronize the training, others with one single electrode. I have the reference...
  9. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    ...to some degree. I was unable to get any more NO sessions. A couple of months ago, I watched the video on the Cygnet system (using the Othmer method), which provided a feedback, I think. I didn't have to take off my hearing aid for this. My problem with this video feedback is that it...
  10. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    ...we experiment with this tool. I totally agree with Gaby as far as other systems being "based on a small sample of the world's population (as Othmer NF)" being a much narrower view of what is normal or desirable as a standard for treating or influencing brain wave patterns. While it requires...
  11. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    ...without the dangers of working detailed inhibition and promotion of certain frequencies based on a small sample of the world's population (as Othmer NF does), then it is reasonable to think that NO should focus less on analytics that may divert people's attention from the wider-picture...
  12. [NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    Since my last Othmer NF session, I have had some trouble remembering my dreams which are often an energetic reading of current events. It felt like I was losing my compass. After 3 consecutive NeurOptimal sessions, I'm recalling more again. We'll see. I'll knock on wood and hope that it doesn't...
  13. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    ...20 sessions per one month and the representative encouraged doing all the sessions in one month. The boomerang effect I was getting from the Othmer NF after two days was way too much. I'm thinking that if the brain gets feedback on how it should work optimally, this boomerang effect will...
  14. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    That's really interesting Gaby. I had a similar experience years ago with the Othmer system. The trainer pushed my brain into alpha/theta too soon and my body freaked out. I read Sebern Fisher's book a couple of weeks ago before starting NO which explained a few things. There was a lot of...
  15. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    Things didn't go out very smoothly after this Othmer NF session. The effect lasted less than 2 days and although I retained more from my training, I felt like I had too much anxiety and dissociation afterwards, except when I sat down to review the book Healing Developmental Trauma and did some...
  16. NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography
    ...like "bam!" I hit the bed and took a long nap. I didn't feel hungry at all today. What made this one different from my previous four sessions with the Othmer method is having woken up at 4AM as a result from NO session. With the Othmer method, I only slept longer than usual (roughly 9-10...
  17. Spanish SOTT Radio Show
    Just a heads up. If this practitioner is of the Othmer NF type (as opposed to NeurOptimal), then it would be good if all of you discuss after the interview the various setbacks of this modality. People can get hurt badly, so ideally a balanced approach should be given. There is more...
    • Gaby

    • Post #720

    • Feb 9, 2018

    • Forum: SOTT
Click to expand...
 
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thanks for your reply goyacobol
That with "Othmar" is lapsus calami
As I said, I went through the threat and went into the thread and topic. I know about the experience of Gaby ...
But I'm in a dilemma: Do I go to the Othmer method therapy or not to go at all, since only those options are available?
 
aimarok said:
Do you know of any cases when proper NF exacerbated antisocial or criminal behavior? Or made psychos more clever? Maybe Cs can give us a hint how good NF can be for fixing criminal behavior?
Click to expand...

I don't know of any myself but my gut instinct says that it would only make them better and more cunning psychopaths. If the centers that connect emotion/empathy are absent, then no amount of training will fix that, I think. In the first study they used self-reports so to me that doesn't really say much, however I do think it could work with criminals in general. The main thing being that there has to be some desire at some level to not be antisocial or live criminally. NF could be an effective supplement to that along with something like the therapy described in Inside the Criminal Mind.
 
Gaby said:
I think there's an element of free will that neurofeedback "can't fix". People have noticed how they are able to self-observe more. Perhaps at the end of the day, it is up to each individual to do what it is in them to do after the reactivity is calmed down with Neuroptimal.
Click to expand...

Probably. But most of the people on this forum aren't criminals, so there's no criminal thinking to fix. Therefore we observe those subtle effects of raising self-awareness after NO.

fabric said:
I don't know of any myself but my gut instinct says that it would only make them better and more cunning psychopaths. If the centers that connect emotion/empathy are absent, then no amount of training will fix that, I think. In the first study they used self-reports so to me that doesn't really say much, however I do think it could work with criminals in general. The main thing being that there has to be some desire at some level to not be antisocial or live criminally. NF could be an effective supplement to that along with something like the therapy described in Inside the Criminal Mind.
Click to expand...

Yes, NF and talk therapy can compliment each other. The main difficulty of Samenow's method was in breaking the habit of thinking in particular way. It takes superhuman will to retrain your brain top-down, but when there's a NF working bottom-up it can really work. NARM approach works in similar way.
 
AzarHyun said:
But I'm in a dilemma: Do I go to the Othmer method therapy or not to go at all, since only those options are available?
Click to expand...

Personally, I wouldn't risk it given the negative reactions that have been reported in this thread, but that's just me. Others may have different advice.

Are you in a position to rent an NO machine and use it at home? If you do a google search for 'rent' and 'NeurOptimal', you might find a unit to rent where you live.
 
aimarok said:
In Healing Developmental Trauma authors suggest that anger emerging during therapy is sign of growing awareness and the anger was there before just in suppressed state. After the anger is acknowledged it must be slowly integrated. Aiming anger inward (acting in) or outward (acting out) is a form of suppressing the feeling we use to avoid frightening realizations.

I think feeling angry after NO sessions is a good sign. This anger is not aimed outward, because it implies hurting other people. It's only realization of anger. The same authors suggest to carefully titrate the therapy to avoid abreactions and negative effects. So when a person gets angry after NO, it can be a good idea to take a break, think about this anger and its cause and let it settle.
Click to expand...

While Rachel Reiland's book "Get me out of here: My recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder" depicts a rather extreme example of anger as a result of pre-verbal trauma, I think it can serve as a kind of case study for how therapy can bring up negative emotions. It took a few years of her undergoing intense psychotherapy, and again, her case was rather extreme, but with the assistance of a very insightful therapist she was able to uncover and work through much of what defined her thinking and behavior as BPD - not without experiencing a lot of anger during the process though.
 
AzarHyun said:
thanks for your reply goyacobol
That with "Othmar" is lapsus calami
As I said, I went through the threat and went into the thread and topic. I know about the experience of Gaby ...
But I'm in a dilemma: Do I go to the Othmer method therapy or not to go at all, since only those options are available?
Click to expand...

Don't worry about the spelling. I understand the misspelling and I do it too unless spell-check catches them. It just took me longer searching for the wrong word.

Personally, I wouldn't do the Othmer method but everyone has to make their own choice after weighing the pros and cons.
 
Laura said:
Very interesting info and question.

I wonder a bit about people who do NO sessions and the result is the emergence of anger. I mean, the main thing that NO helped me with was worrying obsessively and beating myself up more or less obsessively. I was able to get back my generally accepting approach to things. But what is it when the results are emerging anger? Does that mean that the person puts a lot of energy into suppressing anger, and making themselves sick that way, and now they feel that they must get relief by expressing it? And is it valid anger? And why is it aimed outward and not inward?

Just some thoughts.
Click to expand...
I too noticed recently that anger surfaced after an NO session. Like Laura, worry or anxiety, was high on my agenda too, however a lot of my social anxiety disappeard very early on, after only a few sessions. Recently, I have come to think of NO as being like a system that, over time, continually exposes layers of suppressed emotions, in as much that an emotion is gradually brought to the surface and in doing so another repressed emotions gets closer to the surface, waiting for the emotion above it to surface before it too can surface and be expressed, or acted upon - noticed - and appropriately controlled (through awareness), if that is the right thing to do (conscious choice). In other words, acknowledged and integrated over time in oppropriate manners that are contextually driven.

In my opinion, and experience, a lot of energy is put into suppressing emotions, and the resulting 'sickness' that occurs. The 'sickness' which may, or may not, be evident to the person involved - it is taken as the norm - yet other people may suspect, or be aware of that person suppressing unresolved emotions.
 
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