opiate withdrawal

[anart]

Not sure, Davey - it could be simply that you're not coming across like you think you are and all of these people are trying to make that obvious to you, in their own ways. It's really - really - smart to assume the most simple explanation first. The most simple explanation here is that you're being a jerk to people and have no idea that you're doing it because you're dissociating or just not paying attention in one way or another. If you start from that basic premise and move forward from there, you can figure out whether anything 'psychic' is going on or not - it's usually not necessary, though, since we all tend to make enough trouble for ourselves on our own by being blind, passive, demanding and oblivious to it all.

 

[Bar Kochba]

Coming off of a powerful opiate like methadone, you are most likely in an almost constant state of withdrawal. This can cause you to be more sensitive than normal, more prone to being offended by every little thing. As Gurdjieff and don Juan tell us, the way others react to us depends upon our attitude.

 

[davey72]

Davey72, I was once in a similar situation. I was a hardcore illegal drug addict for almost a decade, then on methadone for another decade, then I switched to suboxone which was a hard switch. I stayed on subs for another 2 years then got off of them cold turkey under my own supervison. I had read up on all the pertinent info and made my plan to stop. I did it by myself by using Gurdjieff's system believe it or not. I took responsibility for my actions, and decided I wanted to be free. Only super efforts count. It can be done, my friend. I have been drug free for 8 months now and tho it doesnt get easier, it does get better. Hang in there!

What exactly do you mean by Gurdjeif's system? I am not very familiar with his material. where would be a good place to start?

 

[Bar Kochba]

What I meant by Gurdjieff's system was the 4th way, the work. Making the decison to take responsibiliy and cleaning your machine. Anything that impedes this work is evil, anything that assits it is good. I tried rehabs but it didnt sit well with me to put my recovery in the hands of a *higher power.* I had to do it myself. I worked a full time job while doing this, sweating shaking sick etc. But I used the opportunity to observe my machine, to see how it expelled all those years of poison. A good place to start for learning the rudiments of the system is IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS by P. D. Ouspensky.

 

[Bar Kochba]

Btw, I didnt just impulsively decide to stop cold turkey. Over the years, I had detoxed numerous times (as I am sure you have) so I knew what I was in for. I knew I wouldnt die from withdrawal because god knows I would have been dead long ago if this were so. Gurdjieff said that only super efforts count. That not making efforts is infinitely more harmful than making efforts. I eshewed all professional help because, in my experience, they HAD no experience with what I was dealing with. They seemed to use the one size fits all model. It was the 12 steps or nothing. So I took a different stairway.

 

[davey72]

What I meant by Gurdjieff's system was the 4th way, the work. Making the decison to take responsibiliy and cleaning your machine. Anything that impedes this work is evil, anything that assits it is good. I tried rehabs but it didnt sit well with me to put my recovery in the hands of a *higher power.* I had to do it myself. I worked a full time job while doing this, sweating shaking sick etc. But I used the opportunity to observe my machine, to see how it expelled all those years of poison. A good place to start for learning the rudiments of the system is IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS by P. D. Ouspensky.

Wow.thats what i have been doing lately, and yes,i have been to plenty of detox's, years ago. I seem to have found a better way to look at things lately,and while i have been dabbling a little, it just makes me that much more aware that i don't wanna feel sick like that. i just got working again, over the last few days, and in a way, it kinda feels good to know that i am working it out. I beleive i have already gotten the bulk of the crap out.
Years ago, i guess,due to a social anxiety problem, i could never do it,period, which is why i went on methadone in the first place. Lately i have found that i can go to a better place in my head.
I have never read gurdjeiff, but it is though i am instinctively aware of these things. like i just needed to be reminded.
Thank you. you have given me much to think about. And perhaps some insight into my own recovery. :D

 

[davey72]

Btw, I didnt just impulsively decide to stop cold turkey. Over the years, I had detoxed numerous times (as I am sure you have) so I knew what I was in for. I knew I wouldnt die from withdrawal because god knows I would have been dead long ago if this were so. Gurdjieff said that only super efforts count. That not making efforts is infinitely more harmful than making efforts. I eshewed all professional help because, in my experience, they HAD no experience with what I was dealing with. They seemed to use the one size fits all model. It was the 12 steps or nothing. So I took a different stairway.

I guess that is what i have been trying to do,as well. I sometimes feel that this was something i needed to do, karmically speaking, but i have waited way too long to get to the suffering part. If that makes any sense?
thanks again.
EDIT: i also feel like i have to do it this way,or it will be worth nothing.for years i have been looking for the easy ways/therapies/what have you. One thing i have heard here, a few times, is nothing is for free, and there is a reason for everything. :)

EDIT: i just got a fortion cookie that said "your nurturing instincts will expand to include many people"

 

[Keit]

There is this article that mentions the following:

People with addictions to stimulants tend to choose instant gratification or a smaller but sooner reward over a future benefit, even if the future reward is greater. Reduced value of a future reward, called "delay discounting" by neuroscientists, is the major challenge for treatment of addiction.[...]

According to studies by Bickel and colleagues at the at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, consideration and value of the future overlap mental processes and brain regions associated with memory. The research team decided to test the possibility that increasing an individual's ability to remember would decrease the discounting of future events.

"In other words, we asked whether improved memory could result in a greater appreciation of a future reward," said Bickel.

The results of a series of experiments presented a happy answer. Yes. "A change in discounting resulted from reinforced working memory training," the researchers report.[...]

The researchers believe the study may be the first to demonstrate that neurocognitive training of working memory can decrease delay discounting.[...]

According to this hypothesis, addiction results from a hyperactive impulsive system and a hypoactive executive decision system. ... (O)ur observed decrease in the rate of discounting following working memory training is consistent with an increase in relative activation of the executive system."

The researchers conclude, "These changes in executive function are consistent with the notion of neuroplasticity and suggest that at least some of the neurocognitive deficits related to addiction might be reversible."

What is also interesting about this study that there is something else that has a beneficial effect on working memory and on increasing impulse control, and it is mindful meditation, or meditation with a seed, just like POTS. ;) Perhaps it also adds another aspect to the "remembering oneself". Remembering as one could be, or aims to be in the future.

 

[Gonzo]

Hi Keit,

That research could fit well with the two brains concept I mentioned earlier in the thread, where one brain wants and the other wills.

When the former is gratified, the latter gets weaker. Overgratification will all but kill the will. But, as the research suggests, all is not lost and the side looking for gratification can eventually be weakened.

Having fought past addiction, I can certainly say it can take a while for the other "brain" to be strengthened enough to overcome the pressure to satisfy the desire for what I was addicted to.

As well, since gratification comes in many forms, an addict would need to examine all aspects of where one side wins over the other and make adjustments in each of those areas. I keep finding areas I hadn't previously been aware of, so my battle is far from over.

For example, although I no longer feel the urge to indulge in previous addictions, I certainly see how I succeed in avoiding difficult or stressful events through gratifying desire to escape through distraction. I can see how television can play a role in this for many. The desire to escape, to turn the mind off, and be entertained is a powerful force.

Gonzo

 

[brainwave]

Sorry I am very late to this thread. I applaud Davey72's efforts to solve his addiction issues.
The recommended diet and EE program is a big help. It will heal your body and help to control those neurotransmitter receptors that became sensitized
to the drugs. EE specifically will enhance the normal functioning of the "higher brain" so that the appetitive or pleasure seeking "lower brain" can be better controlled. It is also important to get moving via exercise or hard repetitive labor that will stimulate your natural endorphin system. It's like Bar Kochba described his process of working fulltime and being active while going through the withdrawal. When the cravings are unbearable it is important to pipe breathe too. It gets acetylcholine going, particularly in higher brain areas that need it most at that time. Your way of thinking about it now is probably due to that. We've had a therapist who works with addicts come to our EE class and she raved about it as a way to help them through withdrawal.

Continue sharing your struggles either in the swamp or here, as it is a part of the recovery process. This is probably why AA and similar groups are popular; the individual can discuss and recapitulate as they struggle through the process. If you can find a therapist that is supportive of your avoidance of a pharmacological substitute that is also a plus. It is really important to get to the root of drug taking behavior. If you are near Philly, I can give you the information for the therapist I mentioned but you also have been given some really good tools from the other folks here.

Brainwave

 

[Seraphina]

Hi Davey72, I can relate to your situation. I've been sober 3 years now, and I also was on Methadone. I went through an outpatient rehab, and it worked out well. I felt it was more beneficial to learn to cope while still dealing with the real world. I had been inpatient a couple times, and there, you can be reduced to an almost infantile state...it's unrealistic, in my opinion, although I realize it may be better for some. The thing that made the biggest difference, I think, was that I had absolutely made up my mind that I was tired of living for the addiction...then sought out a good support system. I also didn't really mesh with the AA or NA groups...but I took what worked for me from it and made it my own. As far as the methadone, I kinda weaned off a bit to fast...like 5mg per week...I did pay for that, because the withdrawal was hell for about a week...much worse than regular opiates, but I stuck with it. After that I started feeling better than I ever had...I just didn't realize how bad I felt before because I didn't really know what normal was. I thought I was depressed or had bipolar disorder among other things, but I realized it was just the drugs...now I feel normal, stable...still a work in progress, but much better equipped to improve myself.

I'd like to add that diet and even some supplements would be very beneficial...to help replace the building blocks for your body's neurotransmitters like seretonin et al. to replenish.

this may be helpful to you...

from http://www.dpeg.org/methadone_withdrawal.html

Multivitamin with a strong mineral component: in gel caps only…an excellent quality multivitamin is absolutely necessary…remember that vitamins and minerals are cofactors/coenzymes for repair, healing, and normal function of the body…most times I have patients double up on multivitamins for the first 3-4 weeks
Mineral complex: see above
Fish oils, or flax seed oil.: necessary for repair and proper function of cellular membranes…anti-inflammatory…these need to be mixed omega 3, omega 6, omega 9 oils—4000 to 6000 mg per day in split doses…although some can be purchased as liguids and mixed with your smoothies.
If you don’t do the drinks…get proteins as free amino acids…double up
L-Glutamine 500mg caps…at least 2000-3000 mg per day…split the dose so that your doing it at least twice per day…helps heal the gut and the building block for GABA…the primary inhibitory neurotransmitter…helps slow things down…Do not take GABA as a supplement…GABA is make in the brain…when out side the brain the molecule is to large to cross the blood brain barrier…the building block for GABA is L-Glutamine or Glutamic acid…these building blocks readily cross the blood brain barrier.
Valarian Root 450 mg: Botanical that reduces anxiety and helps one to sleep…Kava, Jamaican Dog Wood, Lemon Balm, Avena are all nervine botanicals which can be used together or by self…I find the doses for each individual varies but typically 1000 to 1500 mg every 4 hours.
Melatonin…dosages vary…this is a hormone released from the pinal gland in the human body at night time for sleep…this is essential for those coming off opioids…in my experience as little as 1 mg to 30 mg has been effective…do what you have to do…I’ve had addicts coming off $100.00 a day habits sleep 4 hours the first night…start low and add 3-5 mg every half-hour till sleep…research on healthy volunteers using up to 100 mg of melatonin in a single dose shows little side effects…Melatonin is also known as a very strong antioxidant with 1000 times the potency as Vit E…Take only at night when you would be going to bed at the regular time…the room must be dark…that’s the way this hormone is released in the natural state…
Full Spectrum antioxidants: relieves inflammation and helps normalize inflammatory pathways and reduces damaging molecules (free radicals) present in the system while detoxing
Vitamin C: 2000-3000 mg per day divided doses…
Reduced L-Glutathione 300mg per day: Helps liver detox metabolites of methadone…Detoxing agents can be found in many products…most in combinations…
Adrenal Support: Research has shown that methadone, and drug use in general, has profound effects on the adrenal glands. In fact, research shows that there is a profound negative effect by methadone on the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis. This is why those that withdraw from methadone have protracted fatigue and problems with anxiety and insomnia. I often use freeze dried adrenal extracts in treatment with fairly good results. You’ll find these products listed under names such as Adrenal Plus, or Adrenplus…the starting dose is around 1000 mg per day in split doses.
Milk Thistle with alpha-Lipoic Acid is one combination that I use extensively---for liver repair and detoxification…1200 to 1500 mg of milk thistle and 400 mg of lipoic acid per day in split doses
This is the basics. There is absolutely no way to eliminate all the problems associated with withdrawal from methadone...one must have a supportive environment and often with daily visits from a compassionate health care provider…This will not kill you…it will be a miserable event…what kills most is the movement back to street drugs to ward off the side effects of withdrawal. If fact, cold turkey deaths coming off opioids and methadone are rare and usually associated with other health problems, or overdosing on prescription medications…withdrawal from methadone is much less of a risk than total withdrawal from alcohol. I wish you all luck on this endeavor…My compassion and empathy goes out to you…Ultimately, I know that you can do this…after all…it has to be done.

 

[davey72]

There is this article that mentions the following:

People with addictions to stimulants tend to choose instant gratification or a smaller but sooner reward over a future benefit, even if the future reward is greater. Reduced value of a future reward, called "delay discounting" by neuroscientists, is the major challenge for treatment of addiction.[...]

According to studies by Bickel and colleagues at the at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, consideration and value of the future overlap mental processes and brain regions associated with memory. The research team decided to test the possibility that increasing an individual's ability to remember would decrease the discounting of future events.

"In other words, we asked whether improved memory could result in a greater appreciation of a future reward," said Bickel.

The results of a series of experiments presented a happy answer. Yes. "A change in discounting resulted from reinforced working memory training," the researchers report.[...]

The researchers believe the study may be the first to demonstrate that neurocognitive training of working memory can decrease delay discounting.[...]

According to this hypothesis, addiction results from a hyperactive impulsive system and a hypoactive executive decision system. ... (O)ur observed decrease in the rate of discounting following working memory training is consistent with an increase in relative activation of the executive system."

The researchers conclude, "These changes in executive function are consistent with the notion of neuroplasticity and suggest that at least some of the neurocognitive deficits related to addiction might be reversible."

What is also interesting about this study that there is something else that has a beneficial effect on working memory and on increasing impulse control, and it is mindful meditation, or meditation with a seed, just like POTS. ;) Perhaps it also adds another aspect to the "remembering oneself". Remembering as one could be, or aims to be in the future.

Thank you Keit.
This seems to be very true, while addicted. I remember when i was a kid, i would consciously choose to wait for things, if it benefitted me to do so. I was that kid, but while in my full blown addiction, i would make sure i had enough "medicine" to last, say , a week. I could never seeem to save it. to the point that sometimes i would do all of it in one day, even though it didn't even get me high after a certain amount.

 

[davey72]

. EE specifically will enhance the normal functioning of the "higher brain" so that the appetitive or pleasure seeking "lower brain" can be better controlled. It is also important to get moving via exercise or hard repetitive labor that will stimulate your natural endorphin system. It's like Bar Kochba described his process of working fulltime and being active while going through the withdrawal. When the cravings are unbearable it is important to pipe breathe too. It gets acetylcholine going, particularly in higher brain areas that need it most at that time. Your way of thinking about it now is probably due to that. We've had a therapist who works with addicts come to our EE class and she raved about it as a way to help them through withdrawal.



Brainwave

Thank you Brainwave. I also agree that working is vital to not only detox, but recovery. Thank goodness i have found a great job recently. I am a painter, and it is a great distraction. One thiong i have been wondering, is, about pipe breathing. Can you practice while doing any kind of exercise? I have often thought of doing this while riding my bike, or while at work, but i remember what Laura said about breathing heavy. It does something different when you just do it, as opposed to exercising. Please correct me if i am wrong about this,k?

Also, thank you Seraphina. I kinda forgot about taking vitamins, as i never really looked into what to take, type, etc. Can i ask -- why, specifically gel caps?
You also made me think that it would sure be a nice idea for someone to start an inpatient program somewhere that deals with the principles of EE specifically, and health section of this forum (among other things).
thanks again.

 

[Seraphina]

. EE specifically will enhance the normal functioning of the "higher brain" so that the appetitive or pleasure seeking "lower brain" can be better controlled. It is also important to get moving via exercise or hard repetitive labor that will stimulate your natural endorphin system. It's like Bar Kochba described his process of working fulltime and being active while going through the withdrawal. When the cravings are unbearable it is important to pipe breathe too. It gets acetylcholine going, particularly in higher brain areas that need it most at that time. Your way of thinking about it now is probably due to that. We've had a therapist who works with addicts come to our EE class and she raved about it as a way to help them through withdrawal.



Brainwave

Thank you Brainwave. I also agree that working is vital to not only detox, but recovery. Thank goodness i have found a great job recently. I am a painter, and it is a great distraction. One thiong i have been wondering, is, about pipe breathing. Can you practice while doing any kind of exercise? I have often thought of doing this while riding my bike, or while at work, but i remember what Laura said about breathing heavy. It does something different when you just do it, as opposed to exercising. Please correct me if i am wrong about this,k?

Also, thank you Seraphina. I kinda forgot about taking vitamins, as i never really looked into what to take, type, etc. Can i ask -- why, specifically gel caps?
You also made me think that it would sure be a nice idea for someone to start an inpatient program somewhere that deals with the principles of EE specifically, and health section of this forum (among other things).
thanks again.

On the gelcaps...I think it's because they have a greater bioavailability

 

[Alana]

One thiong i have been wondering, is, about pipe breathing. Can you practice while doing any kind of exercise? I have often thought of doing this while riding my bike, or while at work, but i remember what Laura said about breathing heavy. It does something different when you just do it, as opposed to exercising. Please correct me if i am wrong about this,k?

I am not sure what do you mean about "breathing heavy". Do you recall by any chance where Laura said this? Because what i know is that you can do pipe-breathing at any time and anywhere. Many people i know do it at work, especially if it's a stressful environment. And the thing is, with practice you can be able to pipe breath with almost not making any sound at all, but still stimulating the vagus nerve :) So you distress, and no-one around you knows you are doing it

And pipe-breathing while biking... sure! why not? I pipe breath when i take walks, and count my breaths and pauses with my steps. It becomes very meditative and it helps me keep my focus in the present, being present.